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  #51  
Old 02-03-2019, 02:32 AM
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(Also, was that Obama investing in Solyndra? Or the Department of Energy investing in Solyndra? There is a difference.)

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  #52  
Old 02-03-2019, 02:41 AM
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There’s a saying about where bucks stop; if I can remember what it is, I’ll come back and quote it...
  #53  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:16 AM
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failures are part of the success process. Trump has a lifetime of successes
Strange argument. Trump has a lifetime of business failures in the real operating business, but a set of the media and marketing successes.

It is clear he is a successful marketing business, it is also clear he is a great failure where there is any operational management aspect of a business under his management.

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But we can look at Obama’s business failures with a little effort. He invested $535 million in a company called Solyndra.
Unless the US president sits on the selection committee of the Ministry of Energy, it is a very stupid and ignorant argument to advance that this says anything about Mr Obama as a person in investing terms. It is very doubtful I should think that what I understand was a venture-loan type program anyone above a middle committe in the Ministry would be involved.

I remain very puzzled also by this habit of the American right to pick on a single company failure in a wide portfolio of early stage technology investment and go on and on about it rather than looking at the portfolio.

This is completely financially and business investment illiterate, it is the kind of thinking and ecnomically illiterate argument that is normally seen with the Left anti market people - the evaluation of the performance of the early stage financing portfolios from the financial or investment (to leave aside any non financial objectives) is made on the Portfolio and for the private venture financing, it is well understood that a majority of the investments will not be greatly successful, indeed even outright failures (the motto thus "fail fast" to avoid reinvestment in dead ends).

It is almost as if they are cherry picking (or do not really understand investment perhaps) what they mean when they say they want more private sector type behavior in the government action.

Last edited by Ramira; 02-03-2019 at 04:19 AM.
  #54  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:11 AM
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There’s a saying about where bucks stop; if I can remember what it is, I’ll come back and quote it...
Sure, but it's still a bit of a silly thing to make claims on Obama's business acumen based on investments someone in the EPA made based on a program from before he took office. Especially if those claims are stupid and wrong.
  #55  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:12 AM
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Strange argument. Trump has a lifetime of business failures in the real operating business, but a set of the media and marketing successes.

It is clear he is a successful marketing business, it is also clear he is a great failure where there is any operational management aspect of a business under his management.
Exactly. Trump's business success consists entirely of convincing people he is a business success despite all evidence to the contrary (prime example the fraud conducted by Trump University). Something which is only possible because he already had a lot of wealth. If Trump isn't given $400,000,000 in loans, then he never ever becomes the person he is today. Trump's business is a con. Eventually, criminal elements realized they could use the conman to launder money (and I think Trump was a willing player, which I think we'll see confirmed shortly after he is no longer president). Nothing that Trump has done has required any considerable business skill. Just a large pre-exisitng bank account, and a propensity for lying.

Last edited by BeepKillBeep; 02-03-2019 at 06:12 AM.
  #56  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:29 AM
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Exactly. Trump's business success consists entirely of convincing people he is a business success despite all evidence to the contrary
Not exactly.

The marketing and the brand promotion is an aspect of the business expertise and success. It is a different form of skill than the operational management expertise. Certainly in the world of the venture financing I know the team I sometimes works with complains of the entrepreneurs who have all of the operational / technical expertise but no sense of the marketing to grow...

However, it seems to me that most people when talking of the business success understand it without detail of differences and as the track record of Trump himself proves, no amount of the marketing genuis will overcome the bad operational management (while it is possible always to hire the outside marketing to solve the lack of that skill). The multiple rounds of the bankruptcies of the companies that should have been (by the comparison with their peers in the same time frame) the cash machines very much confirms what is otherwise quite obvious even now, the lack of any ability for the operational management.

Trump has a genuis for the short-term marketing and promotion, which is perhaps well fitted to two things - the marketing of the real estate properties that are being rapidly flipped to the new buyer and the media marketing like for his reality TV. This seems very clear.

As clear is a lack of the real management skills at all.

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(prime example the fraud conducted by Trump University).
That is a prime example of the low / zero ethics and the committing perhaps of the legal fraud, but it is not an example of the bad management.

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Nothing that Trump has done has required any considerable business skill. Just a large pre-exisitng bank account, and a propensity for lying.
No that is not correct. It requires a considerable skill in the marketing and promotion to manage to rebound from the obvious operational failures he has had. While the track record shows clearly he sadly learned nothing about the operational management, as the repetition of the errors show, it is a skill that is not trivial, his brand marketing (even to the extent of the camoflage of his real inability in the operaitons management, by the cunning in the brand marketing where the real operational companeis with genuine management capacity pay to rent the name.)

Making ideological evaluations on politics of his skills will lead to error.
  #57  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:48 AM
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Trump is a billionaire real estate mogul. Obama is a former Harvard Professor. Who do you think has more business acumen -- Trump or Obama?

As Trump once said the biggest business deal Obama ever did was a real estate deal with shady Tony Rezko. Rezko, Obama's longtime fundraiser, was convicted on federal fraud and money laundering charges. Sound familiar? Maybe Mueller should investigate this next and see how deep the rabbit hole goes? Naw.


Trump is a better business person. He has successfully negotiated better trading terms of the USA.
  #58  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:51 AM
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As Trump once said the biggest business deal Obama ever did was a real estate deal with shady Tony Rezko. Rezko, Obama's longtime fundraiser, was convicted on federal fraud and money laundering charges. Sound familiar? Maybe Mueller should investigate this next and see how deep the rabbit hole goes? Naw.


Trump is a better business person. He has successfully negotiated better trading terms of the USA.
Once again, one should had never had trusted what Trump, the liar in chief, says. He just simplified a misguided ad from the then McCain campaign against Obama.

https://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/rezko-reality/
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It’s untrue that Rezko got "$14 million from taxpayers" for himself, as the ad seems to be saying. The "help" to which it refers is a one-page letter Obama signed in October 1998 urging the city housing commissioner to support an apartment project for low-income senior citizens. A copy went to the state housing development authority. The 97-unit Cottage View Terrace, which opened in 2002, was funded with taxpayer money, and Tony Rezko was involved in developing the project.

But the deal did not put $14 million into Rezko’s pocket. That figure represents the total development cost for the project. According to the Chicago Sun-Times, Rezko and his partner, Allison Davis, netted about $855,000. That’s not pocket change, but it’s a far cry from $14 million. And the tenants of the building benefited too.
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Moreover, the ad’s claim that Obama wrote the letter as a favor to Rezko is without factual support. Both men deny that Rezko asked Obama to write them, and Obama says his district office frequently sent letters supporting "worthy" community projects, so routinely that "I wasn’t even aware that we wrote the letter." Rezko’s attorney, Joseph Duffy, told the Sun-Times in 2007 that "Mr. Rezko never spoke with, nor sought a letter from, Senator Obama in connection with that project." And Obama told Sun-Times reporters in a March 2008 interview:
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McCain’s ad, however, is worded in a way that could leave a false impression. It says Rezko "helped him buy his million-dollar mansion" by "purchasing part of the property he couldn’t afford." That’s true, but only because the seller wanted to sell the two parcels as a unit and the Obamas couldn’t afford both. Rezko did not make a gift of any property to the Obamas. Furthermore, the fact that his wife sold her lot for more than she paid for it contradicts any suggestion that the Rezkos overpaid for their part of the deal as a way of getting the seller to lower the price to the Obamas for their part.
Good negociators BTW need to have accurate information to make great deals, we already do know that besides relying on hack economical advisors, his strength is actually an uncanny ability to come ahead while others end up holding the bag. He is now doing it with the business of America.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 02-03-2019 at 07:53 AM.
  #59  
Old 02-03-2019, 07:54 AM
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Making ideological evaluations on politics of his skills will lead to error.
I'm not making an evaluation based on politics. The fact is with $400,000,000 in loans, Trump is very unlikely to have succeeded. There's no evidence that he has any business acumen to build something from nothing. Trump's success is predicated on having enough wealth to market himself as wealthy. This isn't exactly impressive. Without that wealth upon what would he have marketed himself? Assuming he had gone into business at all, it is very likely he would have been an abject failure since he has no real business skills. Although who knows with the pre-existing fortune maybe a desire to be good in business may have spurred him to develop the skills? Without a time machine who can say, but certainly everything Trump has done has come about from a pre-existing wealth and not from any significant amount of skill.
  #60  
Old 02-03-2019, 08:11 AM
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I'm not making an evaluation based on politics.
You were and are
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The fact is with $400,000,000 in loans, Trump is very unlikely to have succeeded.
Et alors? This can be said for many entrepreneurs in business.

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There's no evidence that he has any business acumen to build something from nothing.
Yes, but that's very different question from general capacity in the business management.

it is the mirror image of the mistake the trump promoters make for the opposite ideological reason.

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Trump's success is predicated on having enough wealth to market himself as wealthy. This isn't exactly impressive.
There are many kids born wealthy that never achieve even with trying quite the imagery that Trump has.

His capacities there in marketing and branding are not trivial things.


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Assuming he had gone into business at all, it is very likely he would have been an abject failure since he has no real business skills.
Encore the same error. The Marketing savvy he has shown is indeed a real business skill. A narrow one, one that is not very useful to the management of a large organization like your government or even any large public corporation, but it is a real business skill.

Denying that is boring politics...

Admitting it does not make an argument for a competency for the presidency.
  #61  
Old 02-03-2019, 08:44 AM
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Obama. Trump's business acumen is significantly below average. He grossly underperformed the S&P 500 even if you're using his likely inflated stats. If he'd sold just his real estate holdings in 1982, retired and put his money in a fricking index fund, he'd be worth $20bn today. When you take into account the fact that he used significant leverage, his returns are downright abysmal.
  #62  
Old 02-03-2019, 08:58 AM
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You were and are
No, I'm not. Who are you to say that I am? Are you a mind reader? Please stop accusing me of doing this unless you have some evidence as basis for your accusation. I'm quite capable of putting my feelings aside and evaluate Trump based solely on the evidence.

The objective evidence is that Trump is not terribly successful in business at best, and objectively bad at worst. As already pointed out (now by two people), Trump would have been better off putting his $400,000,000 into an index fund. Trump has shown no capability to significantly grow wealth better than average. He has been successful with some of his real estate, but again this is predicated on having massive loans from his family to get himself started. No $400,000,000 in loans, no Trump. The fact that others have inherited great wealth and not gone on to become Trump-like is irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is Trump's performance with a starting point of $400,000,000. From that starting point, his performance is poor at best.

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  #63  
Old 02-03-2019, 08:59 AM
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Just cutting to the chase here. What's the point of this thread? If we somehow agree that Trump is better at business than Obama, that makes all the manifest incompetency and corruption of his administration OK?

Last edited by El_Kabong; 02-03-2019 at 09:01 AM.
  #64  
Old 02-03-2019, 10:01 AM
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I'm willing to concede that Trump is also the better athlete and would beat Obama handily in a round of golf— provided it isn't televised, they're trusted to report their own scores, and Trump's blind caddy signs an ironclad non-disclosure agreement.

Last edited by Vinyl Turnip; 02-03-2019 at 10:02 AM.
  #65  
Old 02-03-2019, 10:15 AM
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Six bankruptcies versus no bankruptcies. Why is this even a question?

Even without getting into the fact that Trump got massive amounts of cash from daddy, sat in a soaring market and still managed to crash hard and repeatedly.
  #66  
Old 02-03-2019, 10:24 AM
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No, I'm not.
Yes you are.
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Who are you to say that I am?
An observer making an observation, of course inherently one that is of a judgment.

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this unless you have some evidence as basis for your accusation.
These very comments are evidence enough.

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The objective evidence is that Trump is not terribly successful in business at best,
the objective evidence is that he is in fact not successful at all in the operational busines but very successful in the niche of marketing and branding business, enough to restart his reputation on several occasions after the disasters in the operational business.

That is the objective evidence.
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As already pointed out (now by two people), Trump would have been better off putting his $400,000,000 into an index fund.
That is a subjective assertion that is not based (because there is not the data available to truly judge)

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Trump has shown no capability to significantly grow wealth better than average.
That is not the same question as having "business smarts" as of course again there are different composants of such skills - his ability to recuperate from his disasters in the operational businesses -via the various marketing of name schemes and a certain genuis for the pure distortion field marketing - are clearly unusual and not merely based on the inheritance.

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He has been successful with some of his real estate, but again this is predicated on having massive loans from his family to get himself started.
As is the case of almost every large family real estate group and indeed not saying anything one way or another on general business skills.

The track record of recovery is indeed unusual - it is clear. It is of course as clear that no lessons were learned by him for the management in any successful way of an operational business, requiring business adminstration and operational management skills, nor in the pricing of investments going into companies, as the track record shows, but in the making of serious money via the marketing deals and the self-markeitng of a brand, there is clear success.
  #67  
Old 02-03-2019, 11:11 AM
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Sure, but it's still a bit of a silly thing to make claims on Obama's business acumen based on investments someone in the EPA made based on a program from before he took office. Especially if those claims are stupid and wrong.
Oh, agreed, absolutely.
  #68  
Old 02-03-2019, 11:16 AM
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Yes you are.
Ok. I'm done with you.
  #69  
Old 02-03-2019, 11:36 AM
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People also don't credit him with this business failure because Solyndra was one of the many companies involved in the program - a program designed to find promising but untested green energy solutions - and the program as a whole turned a profit. This is a bit like looking at a hedge fund that was overall profitable and complaining that one of the investments it made didn't pan out. When you invest, you expect a certain degree of loss.
Except even that's unfair, because a hedge fund typically doesn't have the secondary goal of supporting emerging and unsure technology. The point of the program was, in large part, to support "out-there" ideas.
Did you not know any of this?
A .09% profit? Really? that's the sword you're going to fall on after the graft inspired loan to Solyndra? Adjusted for inflation that's still a net loss. Did you know Obama was warned about Solyndra and pushed the loan anyway?
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If the program had broken even, it would have been above-budget, because it was never expected to be profitable. Taken a whole, though, the program was a massive success - instead of the up to 10 billion dollars in losses Congress had planned for, the program ended up turning a profit.
clearly we have a different definition of success.
  #70  
Old 02-03-2019, 11:42 AM
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Six bankruptcies versus no bankruptcies. Why is this even a question?
It's hard to declare bankruptcy when your entire income is based on political charity.

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Even without getting into the fact that Trump got massive amounts of cash from daddy, sat in a soaring market and still managed to crash hard and repeatedly.
Almost all of Obama's cash flow is from corporations who give him massive amounts of money for a speech. If he had an ounce of business expertise he would be a billionaire.
  #71  
Old 02-03-2019, 11:52 AM
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clearly we have a different definition of success.
You've claimed that multiple bankruptcies constitute a success, so I think this is something we can agree on.
  #72  
Old 02-03-2019, 11:53 AM
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If he had an ounce of business expertise he would be a billionaire.
This explains why Trump's not a billionaire.
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Old 02-03-2019, 11:58 AM
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This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category? He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order. He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed.
  #74  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:00 PM
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This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category? He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order. He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed.
So is he Kim Kardashian or Perez Hilton?
  #75  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:05 PM
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So is he Kim Kardashian or Perez Hilton?
Both of them can run their business better than Trump.
  #76  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:07 PM
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He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed.
That's debatable. It might instead be that Trump's ability to convince people he's more competent than he actually is has just allowed him to get into situations where he is then unable to do the job and fails. Trump might have achieved more actual success if he had been limited to jobs he was capable of doing.
  #77  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:14 PM
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A .09% profit? Really? that's the sword you're going to fall on after the graft inspired loan to Solyndra? Adjusted for inflation that's still a net loss. Did you know Obama was warned about Solyndra and pushed the loan anyway?
clearly we have a different definition of success.
Man you're the one who brought up a loan from the EPA as part of Obama's "business acumen", then ignored all the facts on the ground and acted like it meant anything. If you're betting on experimental businesses and expecting not to make a profit (but instead to give the green energy business in the US a big leg up), and end up succeeding in your real goal and turning a profit anyways...

... Look, if you're trying to use this as an example of Obama's business acumen being subpar (which you were!), you're just fractally wrong.
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  #78  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:20 PM
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It's hard to declare bankruptcy when your entire income is based on political charity.

Almost all of Obama's cash flow is from corporations who give him massive amounts of money for a speech. If he had an ounce of business expertise he would be a billionaire.
What businesses has he run? Can you point to the failures that prevented his billionaireship?

Did you ever consider that not everyone has a driving need to make billions? Who actually needs that kind of money?
  #79  
Old 02-03-2019, 12:21 PM
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This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category?
Of course they are.

In my real world work the venture financing arm is always complaining about the entrepreneurs who not only lack these skills but refuse to engage on them, leading to failure.

This is the obsession of the real venture capital investor staff - they are very nicely paid to have a good focus on the business skills - including these.

But at the same time we can observe that they always consider those to be the secondary - it is never the case I know of they ever invest in a purely marketing led venture. Their opinion strongly told to the rest of us is that the organizational and the technical are the core - and the marketing and promotion, it's a skill that can be rented, so they are ready to fund the entrepreneurs without that so long as those same entrepreneurs are willing to "rent" the skills...

Quote:
He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order.
He is obviouslyterrible at running any business which requires a real organizational skill.

That is very clear. If the business is basically purely the promotion and marketing he seems to do very well.

I would not confuse "actual business" uniquely with the operations business (like say the airline), as the marketing and promotion is a real activity.

Quote:
He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed.
It is clearly the evil genuis of self promotion and marketing. But no genuis in organization or management of real operations.
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Old 02-03-2019, 12:42 PM
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This really depends entirely on what we consider business smarts. Are Trumps self promotion and marketing skills business smarts, or is that a different category? He is obviously terrible at running an actual business, anything he touches burns to the ground in short order. He is great at convincing people he is great though, and that has allowed him to succeed where a regular business man would have failed.
His self promotion is largely aided by his wealth. If I'm making 15k a year, you probably will not give me much credibility when I tell you how to become rich. If I am a "billionaire", then you will think that I know how to become rich, and listen much more attentively to what I have to say.

Without his money to start with, had he simply been born to more modest means, I bet he would have ended up as a used car salesman. A good one, sure, maybe even a really good one, but he would never own the dealership that he worked for.
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Old 02-03-2019, 12:49 PM
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The only thing that is relevant is Trump's performance with a starting point of $400,000,000.
Since this keeps getting bandied about it probably should be noted that this number is chimerical. Nobody really knows how much Trump got, but it was probably rather less than this though still a very large amount of money. Tens of millions, surely. Hundreds of millions? Hard to say, but maybe not.

I find this whole thread kind of odd, though. My opinion of Trump as a man or politician could hardly get much lower, but I'd happily stipulate that Trump the businessman is probably more savvy than Obama. He's been immersed in business world since he was a kid. Doesn't make Trump a good businessman or Obama a bad one per se, but Trump surely understands the ins and outs of complex transactions a bit better. How could he not?

Which has nothing to do with anything as far as I'm concerned. People who think businessmen make better politicians are deluding themselves. Governments aren't corporations and function nothing like them.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 02-03-2019 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 02-03-2019, 01:08 PM
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Obama was a partner in a law firm. So he has worked in the private sector.
He wasn't a partner. And he didn't work full time, which is what I said.

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  #83  
Old 02-03-2019, 01:15 PM
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Magiver, do you have any cite for the extraordinary claim that Locrian has a net worth lower than Trump's? Because very, very few people have a net worth that low.
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Trump has a lifetime of successes and has a positive net worth that greatly exceeds Obama’s.
Almost certainly false.
  #84  
Old 02-03-2019, 01:29 PM
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So zoid mentioned Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton (um, not Perez Hilton, right?). How much are they worth? Well, according to various online sources, Kim Kardashian is worth $350 million (and that's not including what Kanye West is worth, which is only $160 million) and Paris Hilton is worth $300 million (and very little of that comes from the Hilton family fortune, since her grandfather is giving away 97% of his fortune to charity). Those are people who have made a fortune based just on their names and the products they've put their names on. Let's elect one of them President.
  #85  
Old 02-03-2019, 01:40 PM
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Trump is a high-stakes gambler, and he had the benefit of starting out with a gigantic stack of chips. That's it. He made money, he lost money, he made more money, he lost more money...that's what he does. Sometimes he'd win, sometimes he'd lose. This is one possible way to become very rich, though again he had the advantage of starting out ahead - referring to it as business sense is not really accurate. It's a strategy, a reckless strategy. He's been yo-yoing with his money for his whole adult life. That's what he wants to do. As has been pointed out many times if he had simply invested that initial money into an index fund and just sat on it, he'd be richer than he is now. But the Trumps of the world just don't roll that way.

Trump is good at promoting Trump. Even if he is indeed a billionaire - which is obviously disputed - he's not the kind that is worth admiring. He's not Bill Gates or Howard Hughes, he didn't get his money by inventing some kind of useful device or pioneering some innovative concept. He's not like Warren Buffet, he's not a financial guru who used finely honed mental skills to make a series of wise business decisions. He's not like Mark Cuban who worked his way up from the very bottom through sheer determination and savvy strategy.

He isn't even like the guys who founded Amway. Amway is a con job, but it's a franchised con job. You get your con man starter kit, and go to work, and if you're successful you can con people out of millions of dollars, and if you're unsuccessful you lose money or barely scrape by. But it's a sound business model for the people at the top, and the guys who came up with it were actually very clever, even though it's a total pyramid scam.

Trump is just a gambler. He throws money around, some of it sticks, some of it doesn't. I don't really view this as "business smarts."
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:29 PM
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Man you're the one who brought up a loan from the EPA as part of Obama's "business acumen", then ignored all the facts on the ground and acted like it meant anything. If you're betting on experimental businesses and expecting not to make a profit (but instead to give the green energy business in the US a big leg up), and end up succeeding in your real goal and turning a profit anyways...

... Look, if you're trying to use this as an example of Obama's business acumen being subpar (which you were!), you're just fractally wrong.
No, I'm not wrong. He was TOLD Solyndra was going to fail. He went ahead with the loan anyway. Big surprise it went to someone who shoved money into his campaign.

Steering tax payer money into a donor's business is not a good business practice.
It's morally, ethically and financially a business failure. The best you can claim from your ridiculous rebuttal is that he generated .09% profit. Not 1 percent. Not .1 percent. .09%.

Come back when you have an example of Obama using his own money in any business venture. Any at all. He gets paid for running his pie hole. That's his income. He has no business background. NONE.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:34 PM
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Come back when you have an example of Obama using his own money in any business venture. Any at all. He gets paid for running his pie hole. That's his income. He has no business background. NONE.
Big Fucking Deal. What the HELL are you trying to prove?

Trump made his money cheating and fucking over people. Is that what you consider admirable?

He hasn't even paid his Trump University settlement. If he was truly a multi-billionaire, that's couch cushion spare change.
Or do you consider it an honorable thing to ignore a court order to return money he stole?
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:39 PM
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Obama. Trump's business acumen is significantly below average. He grossly underperformed the S&P 500 even if you're using his likely inflated stats. If he'd sold just his real estate holdings in 1982, retired and put his money in a fricking index fund, he'd be worth $20bn today. When you take into account the fact that he used significant leverage, his returns are downright abysmal.
This is comparing apples & oranges. Trump was not in the stocks and shares business, it's not what he grew up with. He grew up in the NY real estate business.This is the business he inherited from his father. Trump' s business acumen can really only be compared to other real estate moguls, preferably ones based in NY.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:45 PM
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Magiver’s arguments boil down to “If you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?” Which is bar-napkin philosophy.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:47 PM
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Or do you consider it an honorable thing to ignore a court order to return money he stole?
It's smart. Obama is dumb enough that he would have followed the court order.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:48 PM
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Trump' s business acumen can really only be compared to other real estate moguls, preferably ones based in NY.
Trump's true peer.
  #92  
Old 02-03-2019, 02:52 PM
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Magiver’s arguments boil down to “If you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?” Which is bar-napkin philosophy.
Ukulele Ike's argument is that if you haven't lost money in business because you never engaged in a business venture then you're better at it.
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Old 02-03-2019, 03:11 PM
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I find this whole thread kind of odd, ...Which has nothing to do with anything as far as I'm concerned. People who think businessmen make better politicians are deluding themselves. Governments aren't corporations and function nothing like them.
It is agreed the hidden premise in the thread is very weird as the idea of the comparison is without sense.

Has Obama ever pretended to being a businessman or actually tried? It does not seem so, in which case we do not in fact know if he could be a good businessman or not. And of course, what do you mean by businessman? since as anyone paying attention to detail knows, the term can cover many different types of activities....

But it is not true that governments function nothing like corporations. They indeed do not function like the family companies, particularly the unstructured or weakly structured family business. But the large bureaucratic industiral or technological corporation, with thousands upon thousands of employees, they do indeed function in the executive side or the permanent bureaucracy side of the government very much like those corporations. In the French model I see lots of back and forth between the senior managements of these - and the skill sets and the personal attributes that make for the good manager of the large scale Administrative entity (and even the politics playing with other actors in the system) certainly have many commonalities.

But of course that is a very specific kind of business experience and senior management experience in the particular - one that Trump certainly had no success with as the examples of when he tried to run such as with the previously successful airline he bought, he was a complete failure and wrecked the previously successful entity.


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No, I'm not wrong.
You are very wrong it would seem from a weird ideological circus mirrors understanding... as my reading of the history of this after reading it earlier in this thread does not support the idea of any senior executive involvement in the specific program decisions.

Quote:
He was TOLD Solyndra was going to fail.
By what evidence do you have the US president sits on the loan guaranty committees?

Quote:
He went ahead with the loan anyway.
your citation to the fact that the US president sat on the selection committee?

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Ukulele Ike's argument is that if you haven't lost money in business because you never engaged in a business venture then you're better at it.
As the Trump organization is run as a family enterprise with no corporation type real separation of the family from the business, a giant network of the LLCs I believe it is mostly, without a structure like a public company, the relating of a lack of Obama's personal bankruptcy ever with the repeated bankruptcies of the highly personalized businesses of Trump has an analytical validity.

Certainly in my real world of finance for the entrepreneurs who have the personal type holdings, we do indeed very much care about their personal bankruptcies history. But then of course it is the analysis sans political ideology.
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Old 02-03-2019, 03:27 PM
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No, I'm not wrong. He was TOLD Solyndra was going to fail.
I'm sure a citation for this claim is going to be forthcoming any day now.

Quote:
The best you can claim from your ridiculous rebuttal is that he generated .09% profit. Not 1 percent. Not .1 percent. .09%.
I feel like you're not listening to what I'm saying, so I'm not sure there's any point in continuing here.

Quote:
Come back when you have an example of Obama using his own money in any business venture. Any at all. He gets paid for running his pie hole. That's his income. He has no business background. NONE.
Not listening or paying attention to the course of the conversation. Yeesh, c'mon, man.
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Old 02-03-2019, 03:41 PM
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I'm sure a citation for this claim is going to be forthcoming any day now.
I have googled as I am curious about the actual financings working for this case.

There is I found via this apparently reasonable non political article in the Fortune magazine a US inspector general - your Audit office I believe - report on the actual process [PDF].

It is notable in that it is not very kind to the Due Diligence in the (long) assessment but it also does highlight that the Solyndra management engaged in the deception of even the private credit rating agency, Fitch (a sophisticated actor) - elsewhere it is noted in this PDF that there was also specialist advisory firm that was also actively deceived by the firm.

Quote:
Credit Rating
Solyndra was required to hire an outside firm to prepare a credit assessment of the project to be funded by the loan guarantee. The company chose Fitch Ratings, Inc. (Fitch). In July 2009, a Fitch Ratings official requested from Solyndra, among other things, a summary of Solyndra’s long term sales contracts. A Solyndra official e-mailed to the Fitch official a chart listing Solyndra’s original four sales contracts and three new sales contracts, which in aggregate totaled more than $1.9 billion in projected revenue through 2013.
Over the course of its evaluation, Fitch had multiple telephonic discussions with Solyndra officials. A Fitch official told us he asked Solyndra if any contract customers had received price concessions and a Solyndra official told him no. According to Fitch, at no point did Solyndra provide clarification about the actual state of business between Solyndra and its contract customers. We found that, at that time, all seven of Solyndra’s contract customers had already received price concessions. Additionally, Solyndra’s largest contract customer had informed Solyndra it would not buy more panels in 2009 because Solyndra’s price was too high, and, as noted previously, Solyndra was not expecting future business from another contract customer. According to Fitch, Solyndra failed to provide any of this information to the rating firm.
In August 2009, Fitch sent its final rating memo to officials at Solyndra and the Department. The memo gave Solyndra’s project a BB- credit rating and noted, “The Sponsor has obtained sales contracts with a nominal face value of approximately $2.2 billion, confirming both demand and acceptance of the Solyndra product as well as its pricing model which is at a per watt premium to most other [photovoltaic] products.”
It is an interesting read, this document, and only 13 pages. As a person who has been involved in these supported financing processes (although not this American one) it seems coherent and credible to me. Obviously not a flattering analysis, but it does render his assertions complete nonsense - of course clearly drawn from the political-ideological press accounts.

In any case, the entire process and concept has nothing to do with an assessment of the "business" or even the banking (the more relevant idea) skills of Obama himself. It is completely irrelevant to the subject. It does raise a strong question of why the US would lodge such programs in an administrative entity that is not otherwise qualified to engage in the lending analysis, it seems to me a stupid choice, but that's doubtless from the politics of when the program was created (I read it was in fact initially a creation of the Bush the Son administration, so doubtless there is a bi-partisan policy error here).
  #96  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:22 PM
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This is comparing apples & oranges. Trump was not in the stocks and shares business, it's not what he grew up with. He grew up in the NY real estate business.This is the business he inherited from his father. Trump' s business acumen can really only be compared to other real estate moguls, preferably ones based in NY.
A good businessman goes to where the money is.
  #97  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:34 PM
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Without Daddy's money, Trump is nothing. Considering he had a head start somewhere in the hundreds of millions, he hasn't been particularly successful. Factor in the decades of tax evasion, and he's just a fucking parasite.
  #98  
Old 02-03-2019, 04:45 PM
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It's hard to declare bankruptcy when your entire income is based on political charity.
Not really no.

What you need to declare bankruptcy is to spend more money than you have. Be caught short in an exposed position because you could not cover your debts. Often because you convinced yourself you are a better businessman than you are and invest money. The source of your cash flow does not actually make it more difficult to go bankrupt.

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Almost all of Obama's cash flow is from corporations who give him massive amounts of money for a speech. If he had an ounce of business expertise he would be a billionaire.
You are assuming he thinks he needs more money. Anyway, the question is not Is Obama a billionaire and if not, why not? It is, is Trump a better businessman than Obama?

And failing savagely over and over and over again, despite being handed every advantage, including millions and millions of dollars from daddy, really tells us that Obama doesn't need any spectacular financial successes to outdo Trump.

Not failing outdoes Trump by a large margin.

Last edited by Grim Render; 02-03-2019 at 04:46 PM.
  #99  
Old 02-03-2019, 06:45 PM
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Not really no.

What you need to declare bankruptcy is to spend more money than you have. Be caught short in an exposed position because you could not cover your debts. Often because you convinced yourself you are a better businessman than you are and invest money. The source of your cash flow does not actually make it more difficult to go bankrupt
Sailed right over your head.
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Old 02-03-2019, 08:48 PM
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Sailed right over your head.
So please, expand on your thesis.
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