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  #201  
Old 02-24-2019, 12:05 PM
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which gets him "savaged" by "his supporters"
Glad you put those in scare quotes because that is pretty weak. Of the five supporters, two are British and one Venezuelan micro celebrity.
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International policy is not his strength. Clearly. He may have been better off being one those who resisted the urge to twitter off.
He probably should have shut up but given that he didn't, he would have been better off not trying to walk it back. His base would likely have preferred he be isolationist and not bash a nominally "socialist" government.
  #202  
Old 02-24-2019, 12:54 PM
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If its all on the up-and-up, I expect him to be the nominee. He's the only one I'll leave the house to vote for.


Does that make you special? Still believing the Bernie Bro conspiracy theories about the DNC?
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  #203  
Old 02-24-2019, 12:55 PM
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So Sanders is apparently finding foreign policy to be a tricky thing.



Venezuela comments v.1 were notable for his not supporting Guaidó as the legitimate leader of the country and declining to label Maduro as a dictator who should step down. A different stance than pretty much everyone else in the field who has made comments so far. Pretty negative reaction especially in Florida.



v.2 tried to tack a bit. Went to calling for the Venezuelan military to show restraint and for the Maduro government to allow humanitarian aid in ... which gets him "savaged" by "his supporters"



International policy is not his strength. Clearly. He may have been better off being one those who resisted the urge to twitter off.


Bernie Sanders’ foreign policy experience is limited to ordering Belgian waffles at the International House of Pancakes.
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  #204  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:21 PM
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Ya know, I like Bernie. I do. But I feel he's reaching too far, too fast, too much. Really, you don't burn down the house because you have a clogged drain.

Fixing health care, education costs and the ridiculous tax structure, is not going to happen in a day. Sure focus on those things as a platform, but laser in on one of them.
So like why not Andrew Yang and his "Freedom Dividend"-branded U.B.I.??

I'm serious; I'd have thought "Bernie Bros" would more readily flock to Andrew 'cause he's all about tech, numbers, and data -- and "free money" to the tune of $1K/mo. for life...plus legal weed and mass weed pardons....

Just curious. Really. I'm surprised UBI doesn't seem to have gotten exponentially more traction (and thus Andrew's campaign) yet, early though it be.
  #205  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:30 PM
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Could you point to some place that UBI has been a roaring success?
  #206  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:32 PM
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There is less an emerging religion of science than there is an emerging cult of anti-intellectualism with anti-science as one of its cornerstones and unfounded irrational fear as its main tactic.
Well, not to get into theology and semantics but that's what I'd meant by "Scientism" as opposed to "Science."

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It is quite the hijack from this thread but just to Europe for one step further. Consumers choosing to avoid a product based on irrational fears is one thing (so long as that does not cause greater societal harms) and I would be open to listing on a label "GM crop-free" so long as no health claims are made in the process.
Oh, I absolutely agree -- this is what "BigT" suggested earlier, above...very reasonable. And I don't worry about GMOs myself but I do like the idea of a vocal opposition keeping the food industry honest, so to speak!

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But in Europe their zero tolerance ban results in digging up and destroying 20 million euros worth of crop after a recall noted trace GM crop contamination at less than 0.005%. That's crazy.
Yeah I wish the law didn't have to be so literal-minded; Sweden and Switzerland are jailing and prosecuting, respectively, people who went to fight (as in, against) ISIS...due to violating neutrality!

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Meanwhile vaccine fears have resulted in emergence of measles.
Yeah, for a situation like this I would probably agree with mandatory inoculations.

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Trying to rope this back to this thread - it would help to have a candidate who could communicate in a way that undercut some of the distrust of science and who got the differences. I do not believe that Sanders ticks off that box.
Well, why not Andrew Yang, self-proclaimed "numbers guy" who "loves math" and "loves data"??

Not trying to hijack the thread, of course -- but he seems like the most scientific-minded person (given the math-love).

Still, I do believe Scientism is a real thing. I'd rather err on the side of said scientism, yes, but I'd much also prefer having some "powerful-enough" opposition, if possible (that is, if it doesn't involve destroying advanced civilization!)....

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  #207  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:36 PM
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So Sanders is apparently finding foreign policy to be a tricky thing.

...

International policy is not his strength. Clearly. He may have been better off being one those who resisted the urge to twitter off.
Yeah, I was shocked he waded into this...whatever could have been the gain???

I'm almost as shocked as when Obama did them Flint water stunts -- what the hell was there to gain there by pretending to drink when it was so obvious that he only wetted his lips for a second??? And he did this twice on two separate occasions for the cameras!!

What's the cost-benefit analyses here???
  #208  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:38 PM
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Could you point to some place that UBI has been a roaring success?
Oh come on...might as well have quipped back in MLK, Jr.'s days about where integration's been a roaring success...for any controversial re-do of the social contract it's always been possible to fail....
  #209  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:43 PM
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Oh come on...might as well have quipped back in MLK, Jr.'s days about where integration's been a roaring success...for any controversial re-do of the social contract it's always been possible to fail....
So giving you a thousand bucks a month is similar to stopping government sanctioned racial discrimination.
  #210  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:54 PM
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So giving you a thousand bucks a month is similar to stopping government sanctioned racial discrimination.
Uh, yes...?

Both were complete re-imagining of how society works....

If you disagree with UBI in general or Andrew's specific implementation of it, that's one thing -- but simply to say the equivalent of "it's never been done before" on its own is not a rebuttal....
  #211  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:01 PM
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... Obama did them Flint water stunts -- what the hell was there to gain there
See the other thread you brought this up in (and while neither here nor there I see clear gulping in any case) and my post here.

As to Yang. I don't especially care if someone self-declares as a numbers guy. Science is much more than numbers and explaining science is lots more than numbers. Listened to a bit of him. UNimpressed. For communicating science and what it means in context the best of the current lot may be Mayor Pete. But he is not prepared to be president (let alone win a nomination or general election) in so many other ways and this is far from my only box that I want checked.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:04 PM
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Uh, yes...?

Both were complete re-imagining of how society works....

If you disagree with UBI in general or Andrew's specific implementation of it, that's one thing -- but simply to say the equivalent of "it's never been done before" on its own is not a rebuttal....
I'm sorry, kid, but no they are not fucking similar. One is a moral issue, ie it's immoral to have government sanctioned racial discrimination. The other is a possible solution to certain economic problems like labor mobility and an overly complex benefits regime.

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  #213  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:47 PM
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See the other thread you brought this up in (and while neither here nor there I see clear gulping in any case) and my post here.
Yes, thanks for that -- I'd gotta stop with this habit of typing stream-of-consciousness...!

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As to Yang. I don't especially care if someone self-declares as a numbers guy. Science is much more than numbers and explaining science is lots more than numbers. Listened to a bit of him. UNimpressed. For communicating science and what it means in context the best of the current lot may be Mayor Pete. But he is not prepared to be president (let alone win a nomination or general election) in so many other ways and this is far from my only box that I want checked.
Well, yes, clearly you're unimpressed but I'm curious why...or let me put it another way: what's "the absolute minimum" you can tolerate in a candidate to vote for him or her?

Not trying to convert you; I'm trying to understand mindsets...mostly the Bernie "die-hards" (I mean I can guess but I'd rather hear it directly) but since we're conversing, you in particular as well.

Me, I really don't care about marijuana legalization (in fact, I'm against it) but the U.B.I. is an absolute for me. It's so imaginative and I know it would actually benefit me directly as opposed to anything else which would be much more indirect and much more limited....
  #214  
Old 02-24-2019, 03:53 PM
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I'm sorry, kid, but no they are not fucking similar. One is a moral issue, ie it's immoral to have government sanctioned racial discrimination. The other is a possible solution to certain economic problems like labor mobility and an overly complex benefits regime.
And I'm sorry -- but not everyone gives a shit about your p.c. shit, yeah?

This is exactly the problem with p.c. culture -- can't even have a fuckin' conversation without someone making a big show of things.

You know exactly what I mean but you wanna deliberately miss the forest for the trees ("what! Men and women are not the same!! We're not all the same!!!") so you can posture and showboat. Alright, well take your bow and cakewalk outta here now....

Everybody else, the question was and remains, why are "Bernie Bros" not sufficiently attracted to Yang's Freedom Dividend UBI. I've come across some "Marxist" critique of it (I don't mean "Marxist" as a pejorative at all) it so I'm wondering if maybe that's a widespread thing or whatever (like maybe Bernie People just feel loyalty to Bernie).

We don't have to discuss this at all if it's somehow inappropriate for a Bernie thread (or whatever; I don't know). Thanks for listening.
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:00 PM
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PC? I'm merely not an outright racist and figure a good government shouldn't be either. I am not remotely a SJW so save that shit for some other internet argument.

Would Yang's "freedom dividend " replace unemployment benefits? Would it surprise you to know unemployment insurance is often higher than a grand a month?
  #216  
Old 02-24-2019, 04:19 PM
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PC? I'm merely not an outright racist and figure a good government shouldn't be either. I am not remotely a SJW so save that shit for some other internet argument.
Yeah, you're not an SJW, you just play one on the internet.

Keep throwing around the race card...it's not working. No one gives a shit. Even you, obviously.

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Would Yang's "freedom dividend " replace unemployment benefits? Would it surprise you to know unemployment insurance is often higher than a grand a month?
No, I've been on NYS UI; it's $1,704/mo. at the highest rate.

Yang's UBI is opt-in, voluntary. He even encourages the rich not to take it. Anyone who's getting more than $1K/mo. from some combination of the 126 welfare programs in existence can keep their existing arrangement.

The beauty of UBI is that it has nothing to do with unemployment. It's just there...just for being an adult citizen.
  #217  
Old 02-24-2019, 04:32 PM
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Well, yes, clearly you're unimpressed but I'm curious why...or let me put it another way: what's "the absolute minimum" you can tolerate in a candidate to vote for him or her....
I discussed Yang's ideas now in his thread. So why his ideas leave me unimpressed I'll leave to that location.

More broadly:

I want a president who I believe has the skills for the office with a vision for the future that I can sign on to.

Healthcare - a path towards universal coverage. My preference is Medicare expansion and strengthening of Obamacare but I would not cross off someone saying Medicare for all, even as I think it is not realistic.

Taking Climate Change seriously and respecting science. I can accept a variety of approaches.

Taking rapidly divergent wealth inequality seriously as wealth means power. That includes a strong safety net but the net alone is not enough. Have some plan to address the hollowing out of the middle.

Having some appreciation for institutional factors that compound the impacts of wealth inequality on various subpopulations.

Some reason to think they understand international affairs.

Being able to run a team of people well.

Being able to communicate clearly and convincingly without simplistic superficial "answers". I understand the need for simple messaging to sell though.

Not hateful.

That help?
  #218  
Old 02-24-2019, 04:37 PM
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Yeah, you're not an SJW, you just play one on the internet.

Keep throwing around the race card...it's not working. No one gives a shit. Even you, obviously.
You can't possibly be serious. I am not, nor do I play the part, of an SJW. I merely disagreed that a civil rights campaign is similar to some edgy untested benefits program. I didn't throw any race card. That's lunacy.

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, I've been on NYS UI; it's $1,704/mo. at the highest rate.

Yang's UBI is opt-in, voluntary. He even encourages the rich not to take it. Anyone who's getting more than $1K/mo. from some combination of the 126 welfare programs in existence can keep their existing arrangement.

The beauty of UBI is that it has nothing to do with unemployment. It's just there...just for being an adult citizen.
Sounds really stupid, frankly. Istm that your "research" has mainly consisted of "yay, free money!"
  #219  
Old 02-24-2019, 05:03 PM
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You can't possibly be serious. I am not, nor do I play the part, of an SJW. I merely disagreed that a civil rights campaign is similar to some edgy untested benefits program. I didn't throw any race card. That's lunacy.
...
One thing to keep in mind as we post, here and elsewhere, is that there are people who are paid to spread dissension and ill-feeling and disinformation. (As well as people who do it for free, out of ideological fervor or mental illness.)

Politico just published a big article that's well worth a look:

Quote:
... Researchers and others interviewed for this story say they cannot conclusively point to the actors behind the coordinated activity. Its unclear if they are rogue hackers, political activists or, as some contend, foreign state actors such as Russia, since it bears the hallmarks of earlier foreign attacks. One of the objectives of the activity, they say, is to divide the left by making the Democratic presidential primary as chaotic and toxic as possible. ...
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...attack-1176018

As always when this topic comes up, it's worth noting that no claim that the SDMB is a primary target is being made. However, spreading ill-will and encouraging resentment and division are skills, and people do need to learn them somewhere. A medium-sized message board is useful for that purpose.

That's not to say anything about any particular poster, of course. Any one individual could be picking fights for reasons of their own that have no connection with 2020, or with organized efforts to influence the 2020 election.

Getting people likely to vote for a Democrat to feel angry and irritated and targeted, and, therefore, more likely to withdraw from politics---and voting!---altogether, is always considered a worthy use of time for pro-authoritarians, of course.
  #220  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:04 PM
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...

That help?
OH.

I also want a D candidate that I feel has the best chance of beating Trump.

For me that means specifically looking at someone who I think will do well in that "Northern Path" (several ways to do well) and who can help further build competitiveness (and help down ticket even in a loss) across swingy and even somewhat Red states that they do not need to win.

It also means one who is not overly divisive of the various portions of the base.

Checking ... yes we are in Sanders' thread. How does he stack up on my metrics?

Not so sure he has the skills or temperament for the office. To detail, I do not see him building the coalitions of support to get things done and I see no evidence of him as an effective manager of a team (there have been credible allegations that he's a horrible boss).

I can accept his position on healthcare even if I do not see it as pragmatic and is having the perfect be the enemy of the good. He at least mouths the words right on climate change. Obviously he takes wealth inequality seriously. But he really has no clue about the institutional impacts that hit some worse than others. I think he is clueless on international issues but not someone who is likely to hire good advisors and to listen to them. His answers in general are overly simplistic which sell well but annoy me.

I think he'd have tantrums being attacked by Trump and has never had to really weather that sort of a negative campaign targeted at him to any significant degree. On one hand at least he might play well in the Northern Path states but that is more than offset by how divisive of a figure he is and that his Black turnout will likely be off to levels going back to before Kerry. His thread has lots of activity precisely because he is so polarizing within the party. He also will not help down ticket elsewhere much or build for the future.

Over Trump he gets my support. Over any other choice in the primary field, no. I hope he exits quickly and supports whoever does win hard.
  #221  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:12 PM
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I discussed Yang's ideas now in his thread. So why his ideas leave me unimpressed I'll leave to that location.
Thanks; I appreciate that!

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More broadly:

...

That help?
A little...not much...'cause, yes, it's "broadly" speaking and I was asking about the minimum you could stand.

I don't know what's the "historical average" but let's say that all candidates have only been able to fulfill three issues (as opposed to a slew of compromised half-victories)...which three must you absolutely have??

And as specific as possible, please (I know you may not wish for an extended dive into these things; that's okay, of course) -- for example, "not hate" obviously means different things to different people. What would that mean to you (if that's one of your must-have three issues/characteristics/outcomes/policies)??
  #222  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:15 PM
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One thing to keep in mind as we post, here and elsewhere, is that there are people who are paid to spread dissension and ill-feeling and disinformation. (As well as people who do it for free, out of ideological fervor or mental illness.)

Politico just published a big article that's well worth a look:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...attack-1176018

As always when this topic comes up, it's worth noting that no claim that the SDMB is a primary target is being made. However, spreading ill-will and encouraging resentment and division are skills, and people do need to learn them somewhere. A medium-sized message board is useful for that purpose.

That's not to say anything about any particular poster, of course. Any one individual could be picking fights for reasons of their own that have no connection with 2020, or with organized efforts to influence the 2020 election.

Getting people likely to vote for a Democrat to feel angry and irritated and targeted, and, therefore, more likely to withdraw from politics---and voting!---altogether, is always considered a worthy use of time for pro-authoritarians, of course.
Thanks very much for the reminder. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but certainly at some point further correspondence is even more counter-productive than before.
  #223  
Old 02-24-2019, 06:34 PM
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Checking ... yes we are in Sanders' thread. How does he stack up on my metrics?

Not so sure he has the skills or temperament for the office. To detail, I do not see him building the coalitions of support to get things done and I see no evidence of him as an effective manager of a team (there have been credible allegations that he's a horrible boss).
Hey, I've helped run a business before that took me inside some fabulous residences, folks who own a helicopter, these kinds of people...and you know what? They all suck. Rich, poor, middle-class, whatever...we've had priests and nuns try ripping us off -- I had to go to court against a union shop steward and Democrat wannabe politician (he lost) for unpaid wages (I won)....

And honestly, none of these people are nice. They may smile, they may this or that but they're full of shit. They got pictures with Hillary, or the local Republican honcho, or both...it doesn't matter. They are rude, cheap, try to cheat you, make shit up...one was paying $19K/mo. in rent (and that's cheap for my town) but accused us of "cheating" her when she simply found another company with lower prices -- the same one who shared her busines tax deduction strategies unsolicited with me....

So that's all by way of saying, I wouldn't be surprised if Bernie's cranky. But not to the point of throwing binders at people, hitting them, like Amy what's-her-face.

And that's just one story in all these years, and long ago too from when he was first running...so while I wouldn't be surprised, knowing what I know about human nature no matter their politics, I can't -- and really, no one else has -- put any credence into it.

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I can accept his position on healthcare even if I do not see it as pragmatic and is having the perfect be the enemy of the good. He at least mouths the words right on climate change. Obviously he takes wealth inequality seriously. But he really has no clue about the institutional impacts that hit some worse than others. I think he is clueless on international issues but not someone who is likely to hire good advisors and to listen to them. His answers in general are overly simplistic which sell well but annoy me.
Okay; what do you think is missing? What's the complexity he's missing?

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I think he'd have tantrums being attacked by Trump and has never had to really weather that sort of a negative campaign targeted at him to any significant degree.
Yeah but this is everyone!

No one knows how to deal with Trump...even Trump doesn't know how to deal with Trump!!

And frankly, I think so many people hate Trump because they're jealous...he gets to troll on national TV and be rewarded with the Presidency while they remain internet tough guys and internet saints (a genuine normie does not post online; we're "special" no matter how much we wanna act like we're the good normal folks).

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On one hand at least he might play well in the Northern Path states but that is more than offset by how divisive of a figure he is and that his Black turnout will likely be off to levels going back to before Kerry. His thread has lots of activity precisely because he is so polarizing within the party.
As George Bernard Shaw observed, all progress is made by the unreasonable man.

I can't fault any for being "polarizing." Heck, it's the very motivation for our free speech rights!

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He also will not help down ticket elsewhere much or build for the future.
I'm not sure what you mean by "build for the future" but he seems like he's secured quite a political legacy.

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Over Trump he gets my support. Over any other choice in the primary field, no. I hope he exits quickly and supports whoever does win hard.
So who "has your heart" right now?
  #224  
Old 02-24-2019, 07:31 PM
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Thanks very much for the reminder. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but certainly at some point further correspondence is even more counter-productive than before.
Jiu-jitsu is yet another skill that can be practiced on medium-sized message boards. Success will vary, of course.


More generally:
In a longish opinion piece published today on the CNN site, a major problem Sanders has yet to solve is identified:

Quote:
...This debate, in particular, exposes one Sanders' weaknesses: voters of color.

Let's be clear: there is no monolithic black vote in America. As Collier Meyerson wrote for The New Yorker, Sanders did much better with young black voters than older black voters. While he came close to matching Clinton among young voters of color (black and non-black voters), he lost older voters of color by about 60 points. In the buildup to his second presidential campaign, I have not seen Sanders displaying the political skills he'll need to build a broad coalition and seize a plurality of primary voters.

Instead, he keeps making unforced errors. After Andrew Gillum and Stacey Abrams, two African American candidates in the midterm elections who lost their respective bids for the governorships in Florida and Georgia, Sanders attributed their losses to race while appearing to excuse any role racism may have played in voter choice.

He said, "I think you know there are a lot of white folks out there who are not necessarily racist who felt uncomfortable for the first time in their lives about whether or not they wanted to vote for an African-American." Someone who feels uncomfortable voting for a candidate because he or she is black is, in fact, exactly what a racist looks like. ...
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/24/opini...rry/index.html

Sanders can't be anything more than a spoiler if he can't convince large numbers of people of color that he is the best candidate for them. A relative handful of millennials won't be enough.

And the problem won't be solved by helpful IRA operatives starting innumerable "[candidate other than Sanders] doesn't care about black people" memes. Counter-operatives have caught on to this tactic. It won't work as well as it did in 2016.
  #225  
Old 02-24-2019, 08:01 PM
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... So who "has your heart" right now?
I have long been a fan of both Harris and Brown as different paths to similar ends.

Minimum is anyone not Trump. Even a Republican (but that at more judiciary harms). Sanders is my minimum I guess. Well maybe Yang under him.

I also know lots of bosses. Not all are assholes. Actually most treat their employees pretty well. (And btw there is no accusation that Klobuchar threw a binder AT someone. The accusation is that she threw it in a fit of temper and it hit someone inadvertently. I don't think either should get a bye for this sort of behavior.) Good bosses usually get better results. Not always to be sure.

Sanders, IMHO, misses, well all of the complexity about pretty much everything. We'd need a separate thread on each issue and it is not worth it.

Shaw was wrong. Progress is made by not by unreasonably tilting at windmills but by picking tractable problems and bringing to bear solutions that are possible. Unreasonable pontification can be great for virtue signaling but it gets little accomplished.

Building for the future is helping those down ticket races in states you lose, moving the needle for the party in states that currently lean Red ever more Blueward, helping to develop the party infrastructure in those areas too.
  #226  
Old 02-24-2019, 11:55 PM
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Jiu-jitsu is yet another skill that can be practiced on medium-sized message boards. Success will vary, of course.
I prefer Ignore Fu!

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More generally:
In a longish opinion piece published today on the CNN site, a major problem Sanders has yet to solve is identified:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/24/opini...rry/index.html

Sanders can't be anything more than a spoiler if he can't convince large numbers of people of color that he is the best candidate for them. A relative handful of millennials won't be enough.

And the problem won't be solved by helpful IRA operatives starting innumerable "[candidate other than Sanders] doesn't care about black people" memes. Counter-operatives have caught on to this tactic. It won't work as well as it did in 2016.
Yeah, but honestly anyone not black has this problem...I'm curious, please: what do black folks want?? Do you know???

I see reparations -- which is a total non-starter...are they just trolling for the best deal they can get, starting high as possible and see what they wind up with from the candidates??

Yeah they want "respect" and "empowerment" and "racial justice" and all that other crap but honestly -- like what, tangibly, do they want in terms of laws and policies??

I'm genuinely puzzled. I actually don't know politics (sure I have opinions but I wouldn't claim to know in the sense that now I can work as an operative or teach it in class) -- it sounds like y'all have been following many an election for many a moon! How would you advise anyone to appeal to blacks?*

Much obliged!


* I'm serious. I know someone's probably gonna quip "well to start don't say 'what do blacks want'" or something like that...but I'm serious. Like, is it a certain number of affirmative action hires? Harriet Tubman on the $20 Bill??? (I actually support that!) What???
  #227  
Old 02-25-2019, 12:09 AM
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I have long been a fan of both Harris and Brown as different paths to similar ends.
Ah, so you're one of 'em dreaded centrists!! No wonder!!!

LOL...it's just as the psychology articles say: people's political preferences correlate very faithfully with their personalities. End of story: "The rest is commentary," as the Talmud says! (I read that somewhere -- though not in any Talmud.)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=DSeid;21505971]
I also know lots of bosses. Not all are assholes.

"Power corrupts..." and all that.

It'd happen to me, too. Everyone.

I'm for that socialist/commie/whatever plan to democratize all companies -- all companies are by definition employee-owned. And I mean directly, one-hundred-percently employee-owned -- not "owned by the state on behalf of the proletariat."

But that's from another world, in a time to come, some Star Trek future of plenty....

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Sanders, IMHO, misses, well all of the complexity about pretty much everything. We'd need a separate thread on each issue and it is not worth it.
Well, is it possible to give me a really strong sense somehow??

Like, does he miss because he's too sour, or too sweet, or too savory, or too sour, or too bitter?

I get the sense that he's just "too something" for you, but not sure what....

Quote:
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Shaw was wrong. Progress is made by not by unreasonably tilting at windmills but by picking tractable problems and bringing to bear solutions that are possible. Unreasonable pontification can be great for virtue signaling but it gets little accomplished.
It all begins with unreasonable pontification. Why should slaves have thought they deserved better? Or women? Or anyone not powerful -- we all know that the Will to Power is the second most fundamental drive of our minds (preceded by the Will to Pleasure and followed by the Will to Meaning [wherein lies our species' saving grace]); what is natural is by definition within the natural order of things and thus ordained of God -- DEVS VULT -- the universe itself wants it, Mother Nature herself has given birth to it...why deny this?

Literally everyone honored by history has been unreasonable in some way specific to their achievement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Building for the future is helping those down ticket races in states you lose, moving the needle for the party in states that currently lean Red ever more Blueward, helping to develop the party infrastructure in those areas too.
Sooooo...were you for Hillary before switching to Barry??

Just curious!
  #228  
Old 02-25-2019, 05:43 AM
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... Just curious!
Quote:
I'm curious, please
This is beginning to come off more and more like "Just asking questions!" ...

To stay on topic - obviously your heart currently belongs to Yang but is Sanders your second choice? Did you vote for Sanders in the primaries last cycle? Did you vote for Clinton in the general? (If you were old enough to vote. My impression is that you are young voter.)

You clearly are attracted to Big Ideas. How much higher do you rate having a Big Idea (or more than one) over ability to get things done within the political system we have (which includes but is not limited to winning the election)?
  #229  
Old 02-25-2019, 09:31 AM
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Continuing that thought, do you think that those people trying to get things done within the system we have do NOT do so because they have Big Ideas about making things better, EVEN IF that's combined with an awareness that Politics Is The Art Of The Possible?

Last edited by ElvisL1ves; 02-25-2019 at 09:33 AM.
  #230  
Old 02-25-2019, 10:18 AM
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That’s about how long I’d wait (as in, permanent hard pass), but everyone can decide for themselves—IF they are labeled. Which is what we were talking about (that’s Bernie’s stance, correct?), until GIGO invented from whole cloth this notion that I was in favor of prohibition. GIGO prefers to deal with straw men that are easily batted down, you see.
You are insisting that harm can still be there, in the future. Sorry, but insisting that does lead others to realize that one logical result is for others (if not you) to continue to be in favor of baning it, of course if you think that then it should be labeled, then let others find that harm... Of course then that is still not even good wishful thinking because as noted there is not even a good mechanism to get that harm when proper testing was made.

As for labeling, that is an issue that I do not agree with Bernie, but if it has to be done I do think that using an objective measurement, like the labeling in all products the proportion of how much a gene change was there in a crop or animal, it would be good to show that many times "old" non GMO crops have changed more genetically already.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 02-25-2019 at 10:20 AM.
  #231  
Old 02-25-2019, 11:13 AM
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So like why not Andrew Yang and his "Freedom Dividend"-branded U.B.I.??
I'm killing the Andrew Yang hijack in this thread. There is a different thread for that so no more here.

I'll have more to say after I read the rest from this weekend.

[/moderating]
  #232  
Old 02-25-2019, 11:24 AM
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One thing to keep in mind as we post, here and elsewhere, is that there are people who are paid to spread dissension and ill-feeling and disinformation. (As well as people who do it for free, out of ideological fervor or mental illness.)
I think this is a great topic, but for another thread. In the context of this discussion, it can come off poorly so let's not go down this path here.


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Originally Posted by DavidChou View Post
Thanks very much for the reminder. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt but certainly at some point further correspondence is even more counter-productive than before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidChou View Post
I prefer Ignore Fu!
There is a prohibition on this board of discussing who is on your ignore list outside the BBQ Pit forum. You're new so I'll cut you a bit of slack, but as I recommended previously I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the rules of the board and of this forum specifically.


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Yeah, you're not an SJW, you just play one on the internet.

Keep throwing around the race card...it's not working. No one gives a shit. Even you, obviously.
Do not personalize your arguments in this fashion. If you feel you must, you can do so to your heart's content in the BBQ Pit Forum.

[/moderating]
  #233  
Old 02-25-2019, 12:11 PM
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Some headlines:

Bernie Sanders is leading the polling in the New Hampshire Democratic Primary with 27% of the vote over Joe Biden with 25% of the vote. Kamala Harris is at 12%.

Emerson Polling: Bernie Takes Early Lead In New Hampshire Democratic Primary

Quote:
The first New Hampshire Democratic Primary Poll since Sen. Bernie Sanders announced hes running for president finds Sanders at a slight advantage with 27% of the vote, former Vice President Joe Biden with 25% and Sen. Kamala Harris at 12%. No other candidate clears double digits. The NH poll was conducted February 21-22 of registered voters, the Democratic primary ballot test had a sample of n=405, +/-4.8%.
Bernie Sanders politely asks his followers to respect the other 2020 Democratic challengers. He asks that his followers respect his opponents because unity is required to beat Trump.


Bernie Sanders Politely Asks Supporters Not to Harass His Opponents


Quote:
In his email about 2020, Sanders emphasized that only a united front will have a chance to beat Trump. Our number one priority is defeating Donald Trump. To do so, we will ultimately have to unite with those who today are our opponents for the Democratic nomination. We wont always agree with them, but I expect those who speak on behalf of my campaign to always engage respectfully. I am committed to making this nominating process a fair, issues-focused campaign and am asking you for the same, he concluded.
  #234  
Old 02-25-2019, 12:55 PM
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This is beginning to come off more and more like "Just asking questions!" ...

To stay on topic - obviously your heart currently belongs to Yang but is Sanders your second choice? Did you vote for Sanders in the primaries last cycle? Did you vote for Clinton in the general? (If you were old enough to vote. My impression is that you are young voter.)

You clearly are attracted to Big Ideas. How much higher do you rate having a Big Idea (or more than one) over ability to get things done within the political system we have (which includes but is not limited to winning the election)?
My initial motivations here were to understand why someone might remain a Bernie Bro despite Andrew's platform.

Instead I find deeply committed Bernie-haters, in the main!

So now I'm trying to figure out why y'all hate Bernie -- though ultimately I'm beginning to agree with the psychology mags about political preferences being mostly a reflection of innate personality.

I'm not a young guy. I come across that way, though, 'cause I've never agreed with social conventions. I would've voted for Bernie had he had the chance by the time he came to my state. I've never voted, in fact -- but will now for Andrew! He's got me even more fired up than Bernie.

As for the ol' pragmatism vs. idealism non-debate: It's an illusion, a cognitive illusion like Zeno's Paradox which states that because there's an infinite number of points between any two points, we can never get anywhere...and yet we do, nevertheless.
  #235  
Old 02-25-2019, 12:59 PM
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I'm killing the Andrew Yang hijack in this thread. There is a different thread for that so no more here.

[/moderating]
Um, how would one compare policies, then???
  #236  
Old 02-25-2019, 01:04 PM
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There is a prohibition on this board of discussing who is on your ignore list outside the BBQ Pit forum. You're new so I'll cut you a bit of slack, but as I recommended previously I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the rules of the board and of this forum specifically.
Wow, a lot of rules here...is this a yeshiva??? ;-)

Seriously, thanks for cutting me slack. Though I don't see how I was "discussing" my ignore list -- simply noted that I use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bone View Post
Do not personalize your arguments in this fashion. If you feel you must, you can do so to your heart's content in the BBQ Pit Forum.

[/moderating]
When someone implies that I'm a "racist," that person is "playing the SJW"...doesn't sound "personal" to me. But sure, I agree that that's not a conversation worth having here -- hence the ignore list reference you'd sanctioned.

Anyway, I'll be more focused from now on. Thanks for the continued patience!
  #237  
Old 02-25-2019, 01:45 PM
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Um, how would one compare policies, then???
BTW, I'm serious (I'm always serious, I hope you've noticed, even if I laugh about something) -- I'm not just protesting forum policy...how would I be able to ask one candidate's supporters why they don't think another candidate's policies actually better accomplishes the supporters'goals??

My motivation is to test my own commitment to Andrew Yang's platform in the manner of the Socratic Method. Being that precisely because I support Andrew's views, I wouldn't know where they're vulnerable or outright unworkable -- I mean, by definition I've given my support precisely because I think the signature policies are best and actually achievable!

So however could one compare policies, please??
  #238  
Old 02-25-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidChou View Post
BTW, I'm serious (I'm always serious, I hope you've noticed, even if I laugh about something) -- I'm not just protesting forum policy...how would I be able to ask one candidate's supporters why they don't think another candidate's policies actually better accomplishes the supporters'goals??

My motivation is to test my own commitment to Andrew Yang's platform in the manner of the Socratic Method. Being that precisely because I support Andrew's views, I wouldn't know where they're vulnerable or outright unworkable -- I mean, by definition I've given my support precisely because I think the signature policies are best and actually achievable!

So however could one compare policies, please??
I'm not a mod, but I would expect you could start a thread titled "Sanders vs Yang policy positions compare and contrast", or something like that, without any sanction from the mods.
  #239  
Old 02-25-2019, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidChou View Post
BTW, I'm serious (I'm always serious, I hope you've noticed, even if I laugh about something) -- I'm not just protesting forum policy...how would I be able to ask one candidate's supporters why they don't think another candidate's policies actually better accomplishes the supporters'goals??

My motivation is to test my own commitment to Andrew Yang's platform in the manner of the Socratic Method. Being that precisely because I support Andrew's views, I wouldn't know where they're vulnerable or outright unworkable -- I mean, by definition I've given my support precisely because I think the signature policies are best and actually achievable!

So however could one compare policies, please??
Discussion about moderation belongs in ATMB. Feel free to start a thread there if you'd like to discuss further. No more in this thread.

[/moderating]
  #240  
Old 02-25-2019, 02:04 PM
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I'm not a mod, but I would expect you could start a thread titled "Sanders vs Yang policy positions compare and contrast", or something like that, without any sanction from the mods.
Hmm, that's a good idea!!

I gotta be more "entrepreneurial-minded"...damn this socialism! ;-)
  #241  
Old 02-25-2019, 02:07 PM
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I actually think Bernie would be among one of the worst Presidents ever elected? I'm not a liberal or a leftist. I think Trump is probably the worst President aside from a couple of mid-19th century ones who basically were pro-Confederacy during the Civil War; but I also have more of a sober view of politics than is typically seen around these parts.
There were only two Presidents during the Civil War, and even that's just barely, due to the fact that the war started one month before Lincoln was sworn in. Did you maybe mean during the run up, or during reconstruction?

On the OP: I think Sanders stands a decent shot of winning the Democratic primary. Certainly he should be in the top 3 or 4 candidates. As far as the general, I am extremely skeptical. I just don't see this country electing someone who is a self-proclaimed socialist. On the other hand, Trump is a pretty soft target.

I would probably not vote for Sanders over a "normal" Republican, but I would definitely vote for him over Trump. So, maybe.
  #242  
Old 02-25-2019, 02:20 PM
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Hmm, that's a good idea!!

I gotta be more "entrepreneurial-minded"...damn this socialism! ;-)
So I was interested in comparing Bernie's policies to Andrew Yang's but wound up with accusations of "hijacking" this thread.

Then it was very helpfully suggested by "iiandyiiii" that I start a separate compare & contrast thread.

Folks, please clue in me why Bernie might be better than Andrew here:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=871453

Thank you!
  #243  
Old 02-25-2019, 04:47 PM
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Trump is like a thug mob boss. I don't see a 78 year old college professor type beating him. Trumpers don't mind the thuggish stuff, they love it which is why he won.
  #244  
Old 02-25-2019, 05:06 PM
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Trump is like a thug mob boss. I don't see a 78 year old college professor type beating him. Trumpers don't mind the thuggish stuff, they love it which is why he won.
In fairness, the Trumpers probably won't go for any possible Democratic nominee. The only exception I can think of is if it were revealed that Putin had been born in Alaska, and the Democrats nominated him....plenty of Trumpers would find Putin to be the bigger, more confident, more successful bully. He'd win.

The odds of that are pretty poor, though.

Also possible: someone who's a hero to a large portion of the Trumpers---I don't know, Blake Shelton, maybe? The Rock? I don't know the politics of either but I wouldn't bet that either is a Democrat.

Bernie will be utterly despised by the Trumpers, of course. He's a complete joke to them. But they'll feel pretty much the same about all the others in the ring so far.
  #245  
Old 02-25-2019, 05:40 PM
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Trump is like a thug mob boss. I don't see a 78 year old college professor type beating him. Trumpers don't mind the thuggish stuff, they love it which is why he won.
I wouldn't really describe Bernie as a "college professor type." I guess for certain values of "college professor", but that description implies a kind of mannered scholarly speaking style that I'd associate more with Elizabeth Warren. Bernie sounds like what he is, a tightly-wound activist filled with righteous indignation. No matter how much conservatives will hate him, and despite his age, there's energy in that persona, there's excitement, partly because he is such a wild card and so different from other politicians. (Something that also applied to someone who recently won a presidential election.)

I am still skeptical of his chances; I haven't "drunk the kool-aid", I'm not saying he's a sure thing by any means. But I'm starting to see the same enthusiasm for him among my peers that I saw in 2016, the same enthusiasm which was SO obviously lacking for the one who did in fact become the nominee.
  #246  
Old 02-25-2019, 07:08 PM
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The knives are out for Sanders. This politico article discusses Sanders love for private jets. Sanders going scorched earth on Clinton in 2016 is really going to hurt him this primary season.

https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2...mpression=true
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  #247  
Old 02-25-2019, 08:09 PM
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The knives are out for Sanders. This politico article discusses Sanders love for private jets. Sanders going scorched earth on Clinton in 2016 is really going to hurt him this primary season.

https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2...mpression=true
So, this ex-Clinton staffer is grousing about Bernie taking private planes to go stumping FOR Clinton after she clinched the nomination?? Talk about gratitude having a short half-life...

Does anybody REALLY expect a 75-year-old man to walk everywhere on the campaign trail?
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  #248  
Old 02-25-2019, 08:14 PM
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Question for those of you who are backing Bernie for the nomination: Do you think Bernie would be an effective executive? Would he hire people who would efficiently translate his broad strokes vision into day-to-day governance? Would his veep be in charge of sweating the details? Or are you not concerned with that part of the job?
  #249  
Old 02-25-2019, 08:20 PM
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The knives are out for Sanders. This politico article discusses Sanders love for private jets. Sanders going scorched earth on Clinton in 2016 is really going to hurt him this primary season.

https://www.politico.com/amp/story/2...mpression=true
People who operate at that level fly around on private planes. All they need to do to spin this is say that it helps keep pilots and aircraft mechanics employed. Does Bernie need to be traveling on the back of a mule for people to believe that he's not authentic?
  #250  
Old 02-25-2019, 08:38 PM
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People who operate at that level fly around on private planes. All they need to do to spin this is say that it helps keep pilots and aircraft mechanics employed. Does Bernie need to be traveling on the back of a mule for people to believe that he's not authentic?
Lol, your planet sounds nice. On this one, no you can't hand wave a love for private jets as a trickle down largesse to mechanics and still be a man of the people.

Not that I buy this hit job but come the fuck on.
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