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  #51  
Old 03-05-2019, 03:14 PM
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Acceptable (and a proposal I've made here): There should be a drastic curtailment of military aid to Israel by the U.S. unless Israel agrees to an indefinite halt to any settlement construction or building of additional housing units in territories likely to be negotiated as part of a Palestinian state, since such construction is regarded as a significant obstacle to peace....
Many times, Israel has offered to do this if Palestine would stop with terrorist attacks. Until and when Palestine stops with the state sanctioned terrorism, I feel Israel can do anything they want.
  #52  
Old 03-05-2019, 03:17 PM
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If this was purely political, and not anti-semitic, we'd expect to find some muslim lawmaker supporting Israel and being anti-terrorist Palestine.
You do know there's only one other Muslim congressperson right? Are you trying to say that because 2 of 3 Muslims in congress Criticizing Israel, that it must be because of antisemitism?
  #53  
Old 03-05-2019, 03:27 PM
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Unacceptable: There should be a drastic curtailment of military aid to Israel by the U.S. unless Israel agrees to an indefinite halt to any settlement construction or building of additional housing units in territories likely to be negotiated as part of a Palestinian state, since such construction is regarded as a significant obstacle to peace. The reason such a measure hasn't been taken is because of U.S. citizens who owe allegiance to Israel as well as politicians bought by AIPAC and Israeli cash who won't allow it.
How about this, changing the parts I underlined:


There should be a drastic curtailment of military aid to Israel by the U.S. unless Israel agrees to an indefinite halt to any settlement construction or building of additional housing units in territories likely to be negotiated as part of a Palestinian state, since such construction is regarded as a significant obstacle to peace. The reason such a measure hasn't been taken is because of U.S. citizens who support Israel because of their evangelical faith, as well as politicians unduly influenced by AIPAC and its conservative followers, who won't allow such curtailment.

As Waldman points out, AIPAC has very strong support among US conservative Christians, for complicated reasons.
  #54  
Old 03-05-2019, 03:42 PM
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That slimy little traitor sold out his country for money and I suspect that if Israel had turned him down he would've happily sold secrets to the Russians.* In his case, it was all about the Benjamins.

*it came out that Pollard had passed classified information to South Africa and attempted to sell it to Pakistan.
My point is that it is OK IMO to say "it's all about the Benjamins" in Pollard's case even though he's Jewish. A Jewish guy who sells out his country for money is acting out a Jewish stereotype. But selling out your country is still worthy of criticism.

A criticism is valid if it's true, even if others make it falsely.

Omar's criticism is not valid IMO, but it is not anti-Semitic for that reason.

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  #55  
Old 03-05-2019, 04:30 PM
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Many times, Israel has offered to do this if Palestine would stop with terrorist attacks. Until and when Palestine stops with the state sanctioned terrorism, I feel Israel can do anything they want.
Three cheers for collective blame!
  #56  
Old 03-05-2019, 04:53 PM
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Omar has made valid criticism of Israel, but she is also an anti semite. She doesn't think she is, she doesn't want to be, but she is victim of and a perpetuater of systemic anti semitism that is pervasive in our society. But that it's even a question if this is antisemitism is surprising to me, because it really super obviously is.

1) on its face claiming that Jews are controlling American politicians with their money and buying favor is blatantly anti semetic. I see no claims that it's all about the Benjamins when discussing trade deals with China or Saudi Arabia or any other ally or trade partner that has a history of human rights abuses. Israel is not in the right in term of human rights at the moment, but that doesn't make this a bizarre double standard and it doesn't make it not playing into old terrible tropes.

2) I would posit that it's equally anti semetic to say that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to America. Flip it around. If anyone claimed that Omar was displaying dual loyalty to ANY Islamic group let alone another nation, there would be actual protests in the streets. But she's just claiming that American Jews aren't really Americans unless they stop supporting Israel, then they are the good kind of Jew and its okay.

Does she realize that this is what her words mean? I genuinely don't think she does. I think we have already seen evidence that she had begun to realize that she has more baked in prejudice than she though she had in the aftermath of the All about the Benjamins comment, but then the right pounced and she made the dual loyalty comment and now she's in a defensive posture and poare crying Islamophobia rather than takeing a breath and recognizing that a person can be right and Antisemitic at the same time. That these biases and prejudices are, just like all prejudices, largely systemic and I unexamined in by the holder of the prejudice. Holding these views doesn't make her a bad person, how she responds now that she has been shown the error of her ways will tell us that.
  #57  
Old 03-05-2019, 05:32 PM
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(A) Diddy had the hit, and (B) It's about wanting to get money. If you had any awareness at the time of Benjamin meaning Netanyahu instead of Franklin, do please enlighten us.
No. The Lox had the hit. That’s why Puff jacked it.

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Please tell us more about this conspiracy idea.
A joke.
  #58  
Old 03-05-2019, 06:07 PM
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Wouldn't it be more helpful to address what they're saying instead of declaring it out of bounds, with or without the pop psychoanalysis?
Arguments about wicked Jews pulling the strings of world politics with their money, or having dual loyalty, are generally not worth refuting, for the same reason as anti-vaccine conspiracies or holocaust denial. People who push those arguments won't listen to reason and even engaging with it makes you feel slightly dirty.

But in any case, it's already been pointed out that AIPAC does not actually give much in the way of campaign donations. There is no evidence that anyone in Congress has switched their position to pro-Israel based on a financial donation, or that anybody on this issue is in any way lacking loyalty to the US because of their Jewishness. None. So what's to be addressed?

Let's look at it this way. She implied that the only reason anyone would support Israel is because of the money. Well, I know much better reasons for supporting Israel. (1) Because Israel is a nation founded as a homeland for refugees and immigrants driven from other countries by violence and prejudice. (2) Because Israel is the only country in the Middle East that has maintained a robust democracy for the past 70 years, and has defended western values such as women's rights and freedom of religion. (3) Because Israel has persevered through almost constant warfare and terrorism from some of its neighbors. (4) Because throughout all that warfare, Israel tries as hard as possible to minimize civilian casualties, while Hamas and friends instead aim for mass slaughter of any Jews that they can kill.

Heck, what reason is there why any civilized person wouldn't want Israel to prevail in its conflict against Islamic terrorist groups?
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Old 03-05-2019, 06:19 PM
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Heck, what reason is there why any civilized person wouldn't want Israel to prevail in its conflict against Islamic terrorist groups?
If by "prevail" you mean "continue taking over the occupied territories as Jewish-controlled municipal and residential areas while squeezing out the millions of indigenous non-Jewish residents who are kept under Israeli domination on Israeli-controlled land while being denied the rights of Israeli citizens", I can think of several reasons why a civilized person would object to that outcome.
  #60  
Old 03-05-2019, 07:16 PM
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But in any case, it's already been pointed out that AIPAC does not actually give much in the way of campaign donations. There is no evidence that anyone in Congress has switched their position to pro-Israel based on a financial donation, or that anybody on this issue is in any way lacking loyalty to the US because of their Jewishness. None. So what's to be addressed?
It's also been pointed out that AIPAC coordinates PAC donations by drawing attention to politicians friendly to Likud, and by drawing attention to those who oppose Likud. Why are you leaving that out?

It's also been pointed out that the dual loyalty charge is now leveled primarily at conservative evangelical Christans, who say things like, "Anti-Israel policies are anti-Texas policies." Why are you leaving that out?
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Let's look at it this way. She implied that the only reason anyone would support Israel is because of the money.
I don't see that implication. Where do you see it?

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  #61  
Old 03-05-2019, 07:58 PM
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You do know there's only one other Muslim congressperson right? Are you trying to say that because 2 of 3 Muslims in congress Criticizing Israel, that it must be because of antisemitism?
There are three altogether, but there are quite a few state reps.
  #62  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:01 PM
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If by "prevail" you mean "continue taking over the occupied territories as Jewish-controlled municipal and residential areas while squeezing out the millions of indigenous non-Jewish residents who are kept under Israeli domination on Israeli-controlled land while being denied the rights of Israeli citizens", I can think of several reasons why a civilized person would object to that outcome.
All Palestine has to do is stop the terrorism, which is against all laws, ethics and morality. However, they have made it a way of life, they appear unable to.

Once they stop, they will get my sympathy. Until then they are the basest sort of criminals, targeting school kids in buses.

It's very simple- stop the terrorism.
  #63  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:06 PM
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All Palestine has to do is stop the terrorism, which is against all laws, ethics and morality. However, they have made it a way of life, they appear unable to.



Once they stop, they will get my sympathy. Until then they are the basest sort of criminals, targeting school kids in buses.



It's very simple- stop the terrorism.
Even more collective blame! Bravo to you for putting that responsibility and blame on every Palestinian man, woman, and child!
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  #64  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:16 PM
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Many times, Israel has offered to do this if Palestine would stop with terrorist attacks. Until and when Palestine stops with the state sanctioned terrorism, I feel Israel can do anything they want.
It's not "Palestine" attacking Israel -- it's a faction within "Palestine" that is attacking Israel.

What Israel is doing is saying that collective punishment is acceptable because they're God's chosen ones and they're victims of the holocaust. Ironically, the lesson of the post-WWII era (4th Geneva Convention, to be exact) is that the civilized world made a concerted effort to say that collective punishment was against the laws of humanity.

Mind you, I don't believe all Israelis endorse or embrace Netanyahu and Likudism.

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  #65  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:19 PM
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All Palestine has to do is stop the terrorism, which is against all laws, ethics and morality. However, they have made it a way of life, they appear unable to.

Once they stop, they will get my sympathy. Until then they are the basest sort of criminals, targeting school kids in buses.

It's very simple- stop the terrorism.
Oh God, what imbecilic rubbish!

First of all, there is no Palestine because Israel won't allow for a real Palestinian state to develop. But beyond that is this notion that all citizens of a territory (which it occupies illegally under international law, incidentally) can be punished collectively for the actions of a few rogues.

I know this: you clearly know very little of the history over there -- very little.

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  #66  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:21 PM
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Even more collective blame! Bravo to you for putting that responsibility and blame on every Palestinian man, woman, and child!
Who elected the Terrorist government?

if it was just a few rogue terrorists, that'd be one thing- but it is the actual government, which is quite popular with the people. This is institutionalized terrorism, not just a few randos.
  #67  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:22 PM
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It's not "Palestine" attacking Israel -- it's a faction within "Palestine" that is attacking Israel.

What Israel is doing is saying that collective punishment is acceptable because they're God's chosen ones and they're victims of the holocaust.
It's a very popular faction, approved by the government.

And bus bombings and random mortar and rocket attacks- are they not collective punishment?

Israel build settlements- Palestine bombs schoolkids and random rocket attacks.

Last edited by DrDeth; 03-05-2019 at 08:23 PM.
  #68  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:29 PM
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Who elected the Terrorist government?

if it was just a few rogue terrorists, that'd be one thing- but it is the actual government, which is quite popular with the people. This is institutionalized terrorism, not just a few randos.
And Israel elected Netanyahu, therefore, it's okay to make sweeping generalizations about Jews, right?
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:32 PM
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Here's the bottom line. Nothing Omar said was an attack on Jews. Nothing she said was threatening to Jews, whether we're talking about global Jewry or Jews in America. Her comments were completely in the context of the American-Israeli political nexus and nothing more. There's not a single person here who seriously argue otherwise, and there's not a single person reading this who believes that her comments in and of themselves are antisemitic. They simply believe that Omar is antisemitic because of her ethnicity. And this speaks to the degree to which Americans have been brainwashed into believing Israel = Jew, and Jew = Israel. Therefore, criticizing Israeli political influence = criticizing American Jewishness.

Seriously, why do so many Americans give a toss about Israel? I mean I care about England and Germany, like a little, because of my ancestry, but I'm not going to defend English or German attempts to influence American politics. Why does Israel matter? Why is America so concerned with Israel's "right to exist"?
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:38 PM
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And Israel elected Netanyahu, therefore, it's okay to make sweeping generalizations about Jews, right?
Not about Jews, but yes about the Government of Israel. I dunno what Netanyahu has to do with the millions of Jews here in the USA, from what I see, he's pretty unpopular here.

Note my comments: "All Palestine has to do..." "if Palestine would stop with terrorist attacks" and "Until and when Palestine stops with the state sanctioned terrorism, ...": I am blaming the state of Palestine, and the people who support it.

I am sure numerous Palestinians dont support the terrorism. But the government does.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:40 PM
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It's a very popular faction, approved by the government.

And bus bombings and random mortar and rocket attacks- are they not collective punishment?

Israel build settlements- Palestine bombs schoolkids and random rocket attacks.
LOL! I'll respond when you come back with something better than a Sean Hannity level response because you clearly know nothing about the history over there.

"But they've been killing each other for thousands and thousands of years!!!!" BWAHAHA!
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:42 PM
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Omar has made valid criticism of Israel, but she is also an anti semite. She doesn't think she is, she doesn't want to be, but she is victim of and a perpetuater of systemic anti semitism that is pervasive in our society. But that it's even a question if this is antisemitism is surprising to me, because it really super obviously is.

1) on its face claiming that Jews are controlling American politicians with their money and buying favor is blatantly anti semetic. I see no claims that it's all about the Benjamins when discussing trade deals with China or Saudi Arabia or any other ally or trade partner that has a history of human rights abuses. Israel is not in the right in term of human rights at the moment, but that doesn't make this a bizarre double standard and it doesn't make it not playing into old terrible tropes.

2) I would posit that it's equally anti semetic to say that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to America. Flip it around. If anyone claimed that Omar was displaying dual loyalty to ANY Islamic group let alone another nation, there would be actual protests in the streets. But she's just claiming that American Jews aren't really Americans unless they stop supporting Israel, then they are the good kind of Jew and its okay.

Does she realize that this is what her words mean? I genuinely don't think she does. I think we have already seen evidence that she had begun to realize that she has more baked in prejudice than she though she had in the aftermath of the All about the Benjamins comment, but then the right pounced and she made the dual loyalty comment and now she's in a defensive posture and poare crying Islamophobia rather than takeing a breath and recognizing that a person can be right and Antisemitic at the same time. That these biases and prejudices are, just like all prejudices, largely systemic and I unexamined in by the holder of the prejudice. Holding these views doesn't make her a bad person, how she responds now that she has been shown the error of her ways will tell us that.
Which is fine because Americans have, like, a lot more baked-in prejudice for Israel and against Palestinians and Muslims period - even though most probably would fail a basic geography quiz.
  #73  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:45 PM
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It's also been pointed out that AIPAC coordinates PAC donations by drawing attention to politicians friendly to Likud, and by drawing attention to those who oppose Likud. Why are you leaving that out?

It's also been pointed out that the dual loyalty charge is now leveled primarily at conservative evangelical Christans, who say things like, "Anti-Israel policies are anti-Texas policies." Why are you leaving that out?
Uh, because those things are completely irrelevant to the topic.

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I don't see that implication. Where do you see it?
This has already been covered by others in the thread. Glenn Greenwald had a Twitter thread in which he said "GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatens punishment for @IlhanMN and @RashidaTlaib over their criticisms of Israel. It's stunning how much time US political leaders spend defending a foreign nation even if it means attacking free speech rights of Americans". Then added things such as, after mentioning that Keith Ellison was the first Muslim elected to Congress, "He was also viciously vilified as an anti-Semite - by the DNC's largest billionaire donor. Perhaps there's a pattern to be seen here?" So in a thread about the topic of Israel, and attacks vs defense of Israel, Greenwald chose to bring up the topic of Jews and their money. Then Omar responded to the first tweet with her "Benjamins" comments, obviously implying that she agreed with the notion that the Jews and their money are what drives support of Israel.

And to note, many Democrats immediately saw the issue and criticized the tweet on those grounds, and she deleted it and issued an apology.
  #74  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:46 PM
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It's also fair to note how Netanyahu, and the Israel jingo lobby, have an effective tool to shout down any questioning of his government's actions - the accusation of antisemitism. It shouldn't, but does, need to be pointed out regularly that Jewry, Israel, and Likud are not synonyms.
That’s how weaponized language is supposed to work.
  #75  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:49 PM
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LOL! I'll respond when you come back with something better than a Sean Hannity level response because you clearly know nothing about the history over there.

"But they've been killing each other for thousands and thousands of years!!!!" BWAHAHA!
I didnt say that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...uicide_attacks
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...red-from-gaza/
Hamas leader ‘not denying’ that West Bank terror attacks were ordered from Gaza
Ismail Haniyeh also says Palestinian men in the West Bank do not need orders to carry out attacks against Israelis; adds that he is ready to meet Abbas.Hamas Politburo chairman Ismail Haniyeh said on Sunday he does not deny that orders to carry out recent deadly terror attacks in the West Bank came from the Gaza Strip.

...“I will also respond to the Zionists who are saying what is happening in the West Bank is based on directives and arrangements from Gaza,” Haniyeh said in the hour-long speech. “This is an accusation we do not deny… because it is a source of pride reigning over all of us.”


https://www.counterextremism.com/threat/hamas
Hamas uses its provision of social services to build support amongst grassroots Palestinians, helping it to win the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections. However, the group’s engagement in politics and welfare has not tempered its commitment to terrorism. Hamas’s preferred methods include suicide bombings, rocket and mortar attacks, shootings, and kidnappings. Hamas as a whole or its armed faction have been labeled terrorist organizations by the United States, Israel, the United Kingdom, the European Union, New Zealand, Australia, and Japan..Governance did not moderate Hamas. The group has been responsible for thousands of Qassam rockets fired at Israeli towns,....Hamas reaffirmed its refusal to recognize Israel, as well as its commitments to violence and the creation of a Palestinian state in the entirety of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. ....

Hamas has thus far refused to disarm and its leaders have remained committed to the group’s strategy of so-called armed resistance. Despite the new political document and reconciliation agreement with Fatah, Hamas shows no signs of renouncing its dedication to violence or the creation of an Islamist state.Theme Four: Israel and “armed resistance”
Hamas recognizes the fact that Israel exists, but does not recognize its legitimacy or right to exist. The introduction to the charter quotes Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna as saying “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”* Hamas upholds “armed resistance” as the only method to liberate Palestine. In Article 13 of the charter, Hamas renounces all peace plans or negotiations to resolve the issue of Palestine. Negotiations are a “contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against [Islam]….”
*
  #76  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:50 PM
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I see on open secrets that pro-Israel PACs combined (including liberal ones) contributed about the same as the air traffic controllers. So yes, I still think your line of argument here is foolish.

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Do you assert that any concerns about Likud's political operations in the US are racist, and so should be dismissed and denounced? It looks that way.
I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I assume it’s the same drivel that is trying to make me look like an AIPAC/Netanyahu fan. So I consider it to be silly as well, and don’t even know how to respond.
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:52 PM
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I didnt say that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...uicide_attacks
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-...red-from-gaza/
Hamas leader ‘not denying’ that West Bank terror attacks were ordered from Gaza
Ismail Haniyeh also says Palestinian men in the West Bank do not need orders to carry out attacks against Israelis; adds that he is ready to meet Abbas.Hamas Politburo chairman Ismail Haniyeh said on Sunday he does not deny that orders to carry out recent deadly terror attacks in the West Bank came from the Gaza Strip.

...“I will also respond to the Zionists who are saying what is happening in the West Bank is based on directives and arrangements from Gaza,” Haniyeh said in the hour-long speech. “This is an accusation we do not deny… because it is a source of pride reigning over all of us.”


https://www.counterextremism.com/threat/hamas
Hamas uses its provision of social services to build support amongst grassroots Palestinians, helping it to win the 2006 Palestinian legislative elections. However, the group’s engagement in politics and welfare has not tempered its commitment to terrorism. Hamas’s preferred methods include suicide bombings, rocket and mortar attacks, shootings, and kidnappings. Hamas as a whole or its armed faction have been labeled terrorist organizations by the United States, Israel, the United Kingdom, the European Union, New Zealand, Australia, and Japan..Governance did not moderate Hamas. The group has been responsible for thousands of Qassam rockets fired at Israeli towns,....Hamas reaffirmed its refusal to recognize Israel, as well as its commitments to violence and the creation of a Palestinian state in the entirety of the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. ....

Hamas has thus far refused to disarm and its leaders have remained committed to the group’s strategy of so-called armed resistance. Despite the new political document and reconciliation agreement with Fatah, Hamas shows no signs of renouncing its dedication to violence or the creation of an Islamist state.Theme Four: Israel and “armed resistance”
Hamas recognizes the fact that Israel exists, but does not recognize its legitimacy or right to exist. The introduction to the charter quotes Muslim Brotherhood founder Hassan al-Banna as saying “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”* Hamas upholds “armed resistance” as the only method to liberate Palestine. In Article 13 of the charter, Hamas renounces all peace plans or negotiations to resolve the issue of Palestine. Negotiations are a “contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against [Islam]….”
*
Hamas speaks for all Palestinian interests in the West Bank?
  #78  
Old 03-05-2019, 08:58 PM
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Which is fine because Americans have, like, a lot more baked-in prejudice for Israel and against Palestinians and Muslims period - even though most probably would fail a basic geography quiz.
Sure. That doesn't mean she isn't an antisemite, maybe only slightly, but still really. Both can be true.

Last edited by NAF1138; 03-05-2019 at 09:02 PM.
  #79  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:00 PM
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Hamas speaks for all Palestinian interests in the West Bank?
Hams is the defacto government of Gaza. And vies with Fatah for the West Bank. They openly fight with one another for control.

wiki "Since June 2007, the Fatah-led governments have exercised authority in Ramallah, West Bank, and has been recognized as the official government of the Palestinian Authority; while since Hamas took control in the Gaza Strip, it has exercised de facto control there, ousting Fatah PNA representatives in June 2007."

Admittedly Fatah has recently publicly eschewed terrorism. But they wont condemn Hamas for it.
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/ter...cal-legitimacy
The victory of the radical terrorist group Hamas in January elections has cast leaders of the Fatah movement, ironically, as the doves of Palestinian politics.
So, it more Hamas that's the problem. Fatah has matured, somewhat.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:02 PM
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You know, this has become a hijack. go ahead and start a new thread about Hamas and Terrorism, and the wrongs of the Israeli government.

Back to the Congresswoman.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:13 PM
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Uh, because those things are completely irrelevant to the topic.
Uh, no they're not. We're looking at whether a comment that sounds like "divided loyalties" is antisemitic. It's directly on-point if the people it's directed at aren't Jewish.

Meanwhile, your evidence that "she implied that the only reason anyone would support Israel is because of the money" is this:
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Originally Posted by ITR champion View Post
This has already been covered by others in the thread. Glenn Greenwald had a Twitter thread in which he said "GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatens punishment for @IlhanMN and @RashidaTlaib over their criticisms of Israel. It's stunning how much time US political leaders spend defending a foreign nation even if it means attacking free speech rights of Americans". Then added things such as, after mentioning that Keith Ellison was the first Muslim elected to Congress, "He was also viciously vilified as an anti-Semite - by the DNC's largest billionaire donor. Perhaps there's a pattern to be seen here?" So in a thread about the topic of Israel, and attacks vs defense of Israel, Greenwald chose to bring up the topic of Jews and their money. Then Omar responded to the first tweet with her "Benjamins" comments, obviously implying that she agreed with the notion that the Jews and their money are what drives support of Israel.
The problem is, of course, the word "only." Had you said, "She implied that many people support Israel because of AIPAC's ability to direct political donations," then the evidence you offered would be on point.

This may seem like hairsplitting to you. Me, I tend to think it's important to paraphrase one's cites accurately.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 03-05-2019 at 09:13 PM.
  #82  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:15 PM
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Acceptable (and a proposal I've made here): There should be a drastic curtailment of military aid to Israel by the U.S. unless Israel agrees to an indefinite halt to any settlement construction or building of additional housing units in territories likely to be negotiated as part of a Palestinian state, since such construction is regarded as a significant obstacle to peace.

Unacceptable: There should be a drastic curtailment of military aid to Israel by the U.S. unless Israel agrees to an indefinite halt to any settlement construction or building of additional housing units in territories likely to be negotiated as part of a Palestinian state, since such construction is regarded as a significant obstacle to peace. The reason such a measure hasn't been taken is because of U.S. citizens who owe allegiance to Israel as well as politicians bought by AIPAC and Israeli cash who won't allow it.
I honestly believe that AIPAC buys political influence for a pro-Israel agenda in the US. As has been mentioned in this thread, they don't literally bribe politicians with money, but they, like many special interest groups, spend a lot of money lobbying with the goal of advancing a pro-Israel agenda in US politics, and this is one of the factors in America's policy when it comes to Israel/Palestine. I also think in the post-Citizen's United US, this is a distinction without a difference. The criteria laid out above gives no room for this opinion to be expressed without being antisemitic.

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Originally Posted by ITR champion View Post
She implied that the only reason anyone would support Israel is because of the money.
No, she implied that the only reason anyone would try to deny free speech to a critic of Israel is because of the money.

The context of her "It's all about the Benjamins" tweet was a Glenn Greenwald tweet linking an article about GOP leadership planning on pushing for punishment for Omar and Rashida Tlaib, and making the conjecture that it was related to anti-BDS legislation: https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/statu...27576013193216
  #83  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:21 PM
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Sure. That doesn't mean she isn't an antisemite, maybe only slightly, but still really. Both can be true.
Yes, both *can* be true but stop jerking us around and provide evidence where it actually *is* true incontrovertibly, or does she even get that chance?

The question is rhetorical - I realize the answer is, no, she doesn't get that chance. But why not? Especially when Steve King can go on for decades being racist before finally being reprimanded.
  #84  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:30 PM
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All Palestine has to do is stop the terrorism [...]
IMO the existence of a terrorist faction or terrorist acts is irrelevant to whether Palestinians are intrinsically entitled to citizens' rights and/or national sovereignty in their ancestral homeland. Their basic rights should not be treated like a good-conduct prize that Israel is entitled to withhold or bestow as it pleases. Terrorism is always bad, but it's not a sufficient excuse for keeping an entire people stateless and rightsless indefinitely.

And it's not as though "stop the terrorism" is even believable as a good-faith condition for obtaining sovereignty or rights for the Palestinians. On the contrary, the Israeli right wing is making no secret of the fact that it's independently committed to perpetual dominance of so-called "Greater Israel" and all its environmental resources, and has been for decades. A significant proportion of Israelis have no intention of relinquishing their control of the occupied territories under any circumstances, or of accepting the Palestinian population either as fellow-citizens or as citizens of their own independent nation under any circumstances, terrorism or no terrorism.
  #85  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:34 PM
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IMO the existence of a terrorist faction or terrorist acts is irrelevant to whether Palestinians ....
You know, this has become a hijack. go ahead and start a new thread about Hamas and Terrorism, and the wrongs of the Israeli government.

Back to the Congresswoman.
  #86  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:35 PM
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IMO the existence of a terrorist faction or terrorist acts is irrelevant to whether Palestinians are intrinsically entitled to citizens' rights and/or national sovereignty in their ancestral homeland. Their basic rights should not be treated like a good-conduct prize that Israel is entitled to withhold or bestow as it pleases. Terrorism is always bad, but it's not a sufficient excuse for keeping an entire people stateless and rightsless indefinitely.

And it's not as though "stop the terrorism" is even believable as a good-faith condition for obtaining sovereignty or rights for the Palestinians. On the contrary, the Israeli right wing is making no secret of the fact that it's independently committed to perpetual dominance of so-called "Greater Israel" and all its environmental resources, and has been for decades. A significant proportion of Israelis have no intention of relinquishing their control of the occupied territories under any circumstances, or of accepting the Palestinian population either as fellow-citizens or as citizens of their own independent nation under any circumstances, terrorism or no terrorism.
Moreover, the right wing of Israel is engaging in terroristic collective warfare against Palestinians, which it then turns around to justify collective punishment against Palestinians. The very same victimization complex that Nazis used to drive Jews out of Germany, if they didn't work them to the bone and bake them in ovens first.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:36 PM
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You know, this has become a hijack. go ahead and start a new thread about Hamas and Terrorism, and the wrongs of the Israeli government.

Back to the Congresswoman.
yeah, and guess who hijacked it?
  #88  
Old 03-05-2019, 09:53 PM
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Oh God, what imbecilic rubbish!.
This is not a Warning.
However, it is a note that including extremely antagonistic adjectives that are generally used of people rather than ideas makes this look like a personal attack.
Dial it back. Further employment of such tactics may garner one a Warning.

[ /Moderating ]
  #89  
Old 03-05-2019, 11:05 PM
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Not about Jews, but yes about the Government of Israel. I dunno what Netanyahu has to do with the millions of Jews here in the USA, from what I see, he's pretty unpopular here.

Note my comments: "All Palestine has to do..." "if Palestine would stop with terrorist attacks" and "Until and when Palestine stops with the state sanctioned terrorism, ...": I am blaming the state of Palestine, and the people who support it.

I am sure numerous Palestinians dont support the terrorism. But the government does.
And Ilhan Omar was talking about the government of Israel, not Jews as a people, but that didn't stop you from calling her anti-semetic.

Interesting how you expect your words with a charity you don't extend to other people.

Last edited by Miller; 03-05-2019 at 11:05 PM.
  #90  
Old 03-05-2019, 11:59 PM
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And Ilhan Omar was talking about the government of Israel, not Jews as a people, but that didn't stop you from calling her anti-semetic.

Interesting how you expect your words with a charity you don't extend to other people.
I didnt do that. "She crossed the line at least once in using the term “allegiance to a foreign country.". The "All About The Benjamins" was a maybe, but taken in context, it also appears anti-semitic."
  #91  
Old 03-06-2019, 04:53 AM
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This is not a Warning.
However, it is a note that including extremely antagonistic adjectives that are generally used of people rather than ideas makes this look like a personal attack.
Dial it back. Further employment of such tactics may garner one a Warning.

[ /Moderating ]
Agreed, and so noted - I apologize to the Board and to DrDeth. I let my passions get the better of me.
  #92  
Old 03-06-2019, 05:05 AM
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Here's what needs to be remembered: when people call out Saudi Arabia for its over attempts to influence American (and global foreign affairs) with its oil money and petroleum blackmail, nobody says "OMG! You're anti-Muslim!" And sorry, but the relationship between the Israeli lobby and Washington is transactional and necessarily involves money, so that's not a 'trope' - that's just political reality.

The fact that there's a resolution on the floor, the fact that we're having this conversation is proof of the degree to which Zionists have brainwashed post-WWII guilt-laden Americans into believing that criticism of Israel and the attempt of Likudists to corrupt American foreign policy equates to being an anti-semite. It's really bizarre how Americans care so much for a country that most of them have never been to, and the amount of space that Israel occupies in American media coverage and in our political culture is extraordinary. Lobbies like AIPAC have convinced a generation or two that Israel needs to illegally occupy and occupy territory in contravention to international law for its own self-preservation. And we don't question it.

Back to the original issue here, Omar said nothing that was derogatory about Jews per se; she simply called out Israel's political influence in our political system and she called out American politicians. That's it, and nothing more.
  #93  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:15 AM
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Even more collective blame! Bravo to you for putting that responsibility and blame on every Palestinian man, woman, and child!
Odd how charges of racism cannot be laid on Netanyahu supporters, isn't it? They're declared out of bounds, antisemitic, and other deplorable words, but can never be discussed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ITR Champion
She implied that the only reason anyone would support Israel is because of the money.
You inferred it (and that's being kind to you). The question is why you did so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
You know, this has become a hijack. go ahead and start a new thread about Hamas and Terrorism, and the wrongs of the Israeli government.
AIPAC is an agent of Likud and represents its policies in Washington. It isn't a hijack to point that out.
  #94  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:34 AM
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Yes, both *can* be true but stop jerking us around and provide evidence where it actually *is* true incontrovertibly, or does she even get that chance?

The question is rhetorical - I realize the answer is, no, she doesn't get that chance. But why not? Especially when Steve King can go on for decades being racist before finally being reprimanded.
You are assuming facts not in evidence. I quite like Omar and was quite impressed with her after the All About the Benjamins incident. But then she went and claimed that Jews aren't real Americans. But her words are the evidence. I don't claim know her heart, but I know that she traffics repeatedly in tropes that are antisemitic. That she doesn't have hate doesn't mean she isn't racist.

Steve King should be impeached. Is a fucking travesty that the right are dick less cowards who won't confront him.

That said, whataboutism looks just as bad on you as it does on the right.

Last edited by NAF1138; 03-06-2019 at 06:36 AM.
  #95  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:43 AM
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Here, read this https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-new...erves-dialogue

Pull quotes:

Quote:
"At its essence, much of anti-Semitism can be boiled down to a deeply held double standard through which the anti-Semite makes moral allowances for themselves and their friends that they do not make for Jews. This is why the member states of the United Nations condemn the Jewish state more than all other non-Jewish states combined every year, while the misconduct of countries like China and Saudi Arabia goes entirely unremarked. It’s why activists like Linda Sarsour call to boycott all Zionist Jews yet simultaneously refuse to break ties with Louis Farrakhan. Their moral rules apply only to Jews. Omar challenged this double standard and rejected it. Jews, she said, deserved the same treatment as she would want for herself."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omar on The Daily Show
“With that tweet, what I finally realized is the realization that I hope that people come to when we’re having a conversation about white privilege,” she told Noah. “You know, people would be like, ‘I grew up in a poor neighborhood. I can’t be privileged. Can you stop saying that? I haven’t benefited from my whiteness!’ And it’s like, ‘No, we’re talking about systematic, right?’ And so for me, that happened for me.

I was like, ‘Do not call me that [anti-Semitic]. … And it was like, ‘Oh, I see what you’re saying now.’ And so I had to take a deep breath and understand where people were coming from and what point they were trying to make, which is what I expect people to do when I’m talking to them, right, about things that impact me or offend me
She seemed to have recognized her failings. That's a good first step. Apologists actually make things worse.

Also important to read is this one.

http://on.theatln.tc/04lKZug

Last edited by NAF1138; 03-06-2019 at 06:48 AM.
  #96  
Old 03-06-2019, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by NAF1138 View Post
Here, read this https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-new...erves-dialogue

Pull quotes:





She seemed to have recognized her failings. That's a good first step. Apologists actually make things worse.

Also important to read is this one.

http://on.theatln.tc/04lKZug
Honestly, I'm not gaining a lot of understanding from those articles. They seem to be rehashing the same old arguments, using even vaguer language.

What do you think of the points Paul Waldman raises in the WaPo editorial I linked to earlier?
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Originally Posted by NAF1138 View Post
But then she went and claimed that Jews aren't real Americans.
Wow. I REALLY don't think she did this.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 03-06-2019 at 07:06 AM.
  #97  
Old 03-06-2019, 07:07 AM
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You are assuming facts not in evidence. I quite like Omar and was quite impressed with her after the All About the Benjamins incident. But then she went and claimed that Jews aren't real Americans. But her words are the evidence. I don't claim know her heart, but I know that she traffics repeatedly in tropes that are antisemitic. That she doesn't have hate doesn't mean she isn't racist.

Steve King should be impeached. Is a fucking travesty that the right are dick less cowards who won't confront him.

That said, whataboutism looks just as bad on you as it does on the right.
She never said Jews are not real Americans, nor did she imply it. Once again, we have people taking what she said and making whatever conclusions they want to with her words.

As I said, politically, it's not wise for her to talk about Israel so openly for precisely this reason. But that doesn't make her anti-Jewish.

But putting aside her intended meaning for a moment, the fact is that there probably are some Jews with dual-loyalty to both the US and Israel. There are American-born Jews who maintain Israeli citizenship, and there are American-born Jews who serve in the IDF. That doesn't mean they're anti-American, but suffice it to say, they have dual loyalty. Is that an unreasonable conclusion?
  #98  
Old 03-06-2019, 07:08 AM
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Honestly, I'm not gaining a lot of understanding from those articles. They seem to be rehashing the same old arguments, using even vaguer language.

What do you think of the points Paul Waldman raises in the WaPo editorial I linked to earlier?

Wow. I REALLY don't think she did this.
That's because she REALLY didn't.
  #99  
Old 03-06-2019, 08:05 AM
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Honestly, I'm not gaining a lot of understanding from those articles. They seem to be rehashing the same old arguments, using even vaguer language.

What do you think of the points Paul Waldman raises in the WaPo editorial I linked to earlier?

Wow. I REALLY don't think she did this.
Your right. If they are good Jews and don't support Israel they are fine. Maybe it was not her intent, but it sure feels like that's what she said to this Jew. You can't handwave away a thousand years of history of people claiming that Jews are more loyal to each other than anyone and using that to attack them. Even if unintentional.

Again, if anyone claimed Omar had dual loyalty to, say Somalia, it would be insane the reaction. Or maybe if people made claims that Obama was born in Kenya. To me, one of the people she is talking about (and someone who donated to the DCCC to help elect her) it feels the same. That actually does matter. How Jew view this.
In particular I like the Tablet article because it's from a Jewish perspective and has her own reactions and realization that she was being antisemitic, but that she is actually trying.
Again, I like Omar, I think she is prejudiced, but I think she, at one point, had started to realize that. I think the debate over if she is predjuced further entrecnches the prejudice because, it's pretty obvious.

I like the Atlantic article because it deals with the flip side and lays out that she is, perhaps unintentionally, using dog whistles. Both were written before this became "a thing" which I also think is important.

Last edited by NAF1138; 03-06-2019 at 08:09 AM.
  #100  
Old 03-06-2019, 08:11 AM
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How about this, changing the parts I underlined:


There should be a drastic curtailment of military aid to Israel by the U.S. unless Israel agrees to an indefinite halt to any settlement construction or building of additional housing units in territories likely to be negotiated as part of a Palestinian state, since such construction is regarded as a significant obstacle to peace. The reason such a measure hasn't been taken is because of U.S. citizens who support Israel because of their evangelical faith, as well as politicians unduly influenced by AIPAC and its conservative followers, who won't allow such curtailment.

As Waldman points out, AIPAC has very strong support among US conservative Christians, for complicated reasons.
I think you are overlooking substantial support for Israel in the U.S. that does not come from either of those two groups.

Many times people blame lobbying groups for "undue influence", ignoring the fact that a major reason for their influence is that their views are substantially represented in the general population.*

*one wonders why opposing lobbying groups which are often very well funded seem unable to counter this "undue influence", whether it applies to Israel, gun laws, Social Security etc.
Could it be that these other Unduly Influential lobby groups also have substantial support among Americans as a whole?
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