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  #1  
Old 03-18-2019, 10:36 AM
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Hey Dems - Stop fighting with each other!


Just knock it off.

Beto O'Rourke doesn't have to apologize for making a joke about himself that is actually a tribute to his wife. Don't jab at him!

Tulsi Gabbard is allowed to have different foreign policy ideas from Obama. Get off her back!

Kirsten Gillibrand's views on immigration have evolved over time. Leave her alone!

Bernie and Biden are older than the hills, of course they said things 100 years ago in a different time and place that they wouldn't say now. Don't hassle them!

This goes for every one of you Democratic candidates. Every single one of you would be a better president than you know who. Stop attacking each other. I don't care what you think of the other Democratic candidate's policies, history, messages or campaigns. Tell us how you will be a good POTUS if elected, what your policies will be, what you want to accomplish, and how you will go about it. Show solidarity with your fellow candidates. Do not cooperate with the press that wants to make stories out of your infighting. Do not feed attack ideas to the GOP/conservative/white supremacist opposition.

Once disgraced former president Trump is out of office you can go back to fighting with each other. Until then give us the chance to choose a candidate based on what you can tell us about what you will do as president, not what you don't like about your primary opponents. We can figure how you are different from the other candidates, if you want to compare yourself favorably to someone else guess who that oughta be.

If you don't knock it off guess who will be re-elected, and it will be your fault.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:49 AM
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He's got a decent chance of getting re-elected regardless of whether you fight each other or sing Kumbaya together.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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You say that like it's a good thing.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:02 AM
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Last Presidential election cycle the Dems kind of decided ahead of time who was going to be anointed - how did that work out for you?
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Stop attacking each other. I don't care what you think of the other Democratic candidate's policies, history, messages or campaigns. Tell us how you will be a good POTUS if elected, what your policies will be, what you want to accomplish, and how you will go about it. Show solidarity with your fellow candidates. Do not cooperate with the press that wants to make stories out of your infighting. Do not feed attack ideas to the GOP/conservative/white supremacist opposition.
As Samuel Johnson said of the Irish -
"They are a very truthful people. They never speak well of one another."

Good luck herding the cats.

Regards,
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:03 AM
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You say that like it's a good thing.
It is.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:09 AM
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I thought of starting a thread in elections similar, but almost completely opposite to, this one.

I think a high level of intraparty bickering is a GOOD thing. But only if it's substantive and issue-based.

Good: criticizing members for saying antisemitic things, criticizing members for weaponizing accusations of antisemitism, criticizing members for wearing blackface, criticizing members for overemphasizing idiocy from a quarter century ago, criticizing members for supporting universal health care, criticizing members for not supporting universal health care.

Bad: criticizing members for kowtowing to party leadership, criticizing members for criticizing members, criticizing members for being old, criticizing members for being young, criticizing members for being part of the establishment, criticizing members for insufficient party loyalty.

We need to have a robust, heated discussion about the direction of the party. Discussions about what we should believe, and how we should achieve it, are fantastic.

But bickering about who's in the club and who's not in the club, and personal sniping? That's the kind of bullshit I'm so, so tired of.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:49 AM
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Yeah, I would actually find it troubling if every major Democratic candidate lined up and expressed support for the Green New Deal without vocal criticism and fine tuned constructive observation.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:56 AM
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I see nothing in terms of Democratic discussions, debates, and disagreements that hasn't happened during nearly every single 4 year cycle for an open Democratic presidential primary. This is entirely normal.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:59 AM
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It is.
Not for those of us who would prefer a president who hasn't praised, encouraged, or threatened violence on multiple occasions; and who hasn't bragged about violating the consent of women on multiple occasions; among other things. YMMV on the importance of opposing violence and the abuse of women.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-18-2019 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:00 PM
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Yeah, I would actually find it troubling if every major Democratic candidate lined up and expressed support for the Green New Deal without vocal criticism and fine tuned constructive observation.
I didn't say the candidates have to agree on everything, or anything. You're supposed to be a political party, you're supposed to have a common political philosophy that sets you apart from the other party. If you can't state what your personal approach to that is without criticizing others in your party then you don't have a case to state. This is not the time to decide what the Democratic Party is or should be. You should have been doing that for the last two years. This is the time to oust the worst president in our history. Don't do what the GOP expects you to do and divide your party.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:10 PM
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I think most of the various groups will come around when it comes time for the general election. The biggest concern I have is with Bernie and the Bernie Bros, assuming that Bernie doesn’t get the nomination. Even if Bernie himself comes around, I wonder how many of the Bernie Bros will sit out the general or vote for Trump our of spite.
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Old 03-18-2019, 12:16 PM
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I think most of the various groups will come around when it comes time for the general election. The biggest concern I have is with Bernie and the Bernie Bros, assuming that Bernie doesnít get the nomination. Even if Bernie himself comes around, I wonder how many of the Bernie Bros will sit out the general or vote for Trump our of spite.
None of them because they only exist in your mind.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:19 PM
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Not for those of us who would prefer a president who hasn't praised, encouraged, or threatened violence on multiple occasions; and who hasn't bragged about violating the consent of women on multiple occasions; among other things. YMMV on the importance of opposing violence and the abuse of women.
I think it's important. I just don't think your party has much moral high ground on the issue.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:21 PM
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... I wonder how many of the Bernie Bros will sit out the general or vote for Trump our of spite.
Do you have any idea how many did this the last time?
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:30 PM
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I think it's important.
LOL. Says the guy who continues to gleefully support someone who's bragged about violating the consent of women and girls on multiple occasions, and who has praised, encouraged, and threatened violence on multiple occasions.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:38 PM
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LOL. Says the guy who continues to gleefully support someone who's bragged about violating the consent of women and girls on multiple occasions, and who has praised, encouraged, and threatened violence on multiple occasions.
I don't know about "gleefully", but yeah, I'm still glad he's our President and not the "lady" that undermined her husband's victims. How do you feel about Bill and Hillary Clinton?
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:52 PM
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None of them because they only exist in your mind.
I keep hearing this on these boards. Itís so odd, because I am personally acquainted with several Bernie people (all of them white men btw) who did sit out the general election or voted for Jill Stein. This is not some kind of a Manufactured by Russia deal. Itís real, and it could be a real problem, and those of us who wish to defeat Trump should not be pretending otherwise.
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Old 03-18-2019, 01:53 PM
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I don't know about "gleefully", but yeah, I'm still glad he's our President and not the "lady" that undermined her husband's victims. How do you feel about Bill and Hillary Clinton?
Personally attacking women for coming forward and telling their stories is disgusting. Not as disgusting as multiple violations of consent of women and girls, and multiple instances of praising, encouraging, and but it is indeed disgusting. I'm not interested in helping you rationalize your continued (and apparently future, regardless of opponent, based on your words) and gleeful support for a multiple-violator-of-consent of women and girls. That's on you, and you can't blame it on anyone else. That you root for him to win when his opponent isn't known at all, and will almost certainly be someone who hasn't personally attacked women for coming forward and telling their stories, or bragged about violating the consent of women and girls on multiple occasions, or praised/encouraged/threatened violence on multiple occasions, reveals how little import you placed (and apparently still place) on fighting those issues.

When you continue to support, and apparently will support in the future regardless of opponent, a multiple-violator of consent of women and girls, and a multiple-praiser/encourager/threatener of violence, then you shouldn't be surprised if folks might think you don't really care that much about fighting violence or the abuse of women.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-18-2019 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:16 PM
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Last Presidential election cycle the Dems kind of decided ahead of time who was going to be anointed - how did that work out for you?
Regards,
Shodan
Last cycle the Republicans decided that an uninformed, biased, misogynistic, philandering, dissembling reprobate was going to be anointed - how does that translate to you saddling up the Moral High Horse?

Expectorations,
CaptMurdock.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:17 PM
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I think it's important. I just don't think your party has much moral high ground on the issue.
I'm not sure your party could find the moral high ground with Google Earth and a Sherpa guide.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:22 PM
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... I'm not interested in helping you rationalize ...
Don't worry, I don't need your help in making up my mind.

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... your continued (and apparently future, regardless of opponent, based on your words) and gleeful support ...
Sure the opponent matters, I just haven't seen anyone palatable on the Dem side yet.

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... That you root for him to win when his opponent isn't known at all...
We don't yet know which one it will be, but we've got a pretty good idea of who the possibilities are so far. It's possible some additional contenders will throw their hats in too. I don't think it's accurate to say "his opponent isn't known at all". We've narrowed it down from a few hundred million eligible Americans to one or two dozen possibilities.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:27 PM
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Sure the opponent matters, I just haven't seen anyone palatable on the Dem side yet.

We don't yet know which one it will be, but we've got a pretty good idea of who the possibilities are so far. It's possible some additional contenders will throw their hats in too. I don't think it's accurate to say "his opponent isn't known at all". We've narrowed it down from a few hundred million eligible Americans to one or two dozen possibilities.
The majority of them, if not all of them, have not personally attacked women for nothing more than telling their stories (unlike Trump), have not bragged about violating the consent of women and girls on multiple occasions (unlike Trump), and have not praised, encouraged, and threatened violence on multiple occasions (unlike Trump).

So even knowing that, the only "palatable" one, in your eyes, is the one who's guilty of all three. The attacker of women who just told their stories; the bragger of violating the consent of women and girls; and the praiser/encourager/threatener of violence. When presented with a choice including many who have done none of those things, you choose the one who's done all of them. Which demonstrates quite clearly (according to your posts alone) your priorities with regards to opposing the abuse of women and violence in our society.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-18-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:28 PM
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By the way, in the spirit of the OP of this thread, hopefully I've demonstrated in this thread an alternative for Democrats aside from "fighting with each other".
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:38 PM
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This thread - not about Trump per se. Discussion of who can best beat Trump, candidates against Trump, etc. are all fair game. More like, intra-party argument/squabbles, good or bad?

Please stay on topic.

[/moderating]
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:41 PM
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I keep hearing this on these boards. Itís so odd, because I am personally acquainted with several Bernie people (all of them white men btw) who did sit out the general election or voted for Jill Stein. This is not some kind of a Manufactured by Russia deal. Itís real, and it could be a real problem, and those of us who wish to defeat Trump should not be pretending otherwise.
If not pretending otherwise includes whipping up or taking the bait of trifling drama, count me on the side of the OP in that regard. I think it's known that Bernie has diehard fans in existence who will unconditionally do so if they don't get their way, and it's all so tiresome.
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Old 03-18-2019, 02:46 PM
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Bernie and Biden are older than the hills, of course they said things 100 years ago in a different time and place that they wouldn't say now. Don't hassle them!
Yeah, I'm sure that Joe Biden wouldn't have been one of the prime movers of the 2005 Bankruptcy Act if it had been before Congress in 2005, rather than in 1988. Oh wait...

Seriously, I'm looking forward to a battle royal between Elizabeth Warren and Joe Biden over the 2005 Bankruptcy Act. It will be a good, old-fashioned debate about policy, and Biden's reputation within the party will be devastated.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:04 PM
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I keep hearing this on these boards. Itís so odd, because I am personally acquainted with several Bernie people (all of them white men btw) who did sit out the general election or voted for Jill Stein. This is not some kind of a Manufactured by Russia deal. Itís real, and it could be a real problem, and those of us who wish to defeat Trump should not be pretending otherwise.
I don't know about your friends specifically, but this was in fact the game the Russian troll farm was playing: to pose as blacks and say things to other blacks that made them wonder whether there was any point in voting for Hillary, or pose as a lefty and say the sorts of things to other lefties that would increase their doubts that there was any reason to vote for Hillary. Besides, she's gonna win anyway, why not show your true colors and vote for Jill Stein?
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:28 PM
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Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Hillary Clinton is responsible for the 'Obama is a Muslim' smear.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:12 PM
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I don't know about "gleefully", but yeah, I'm still glad he's our President and not the "lady" that undermined her husband's victims. How do you feel about Bill and Hillary Clinton?
Enough with the whatabouts HD. If you canít constructively contribute I expect you to at least not hijack.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:21 PM
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Not for those of us who would prefer a president who hasn't praised, encouraged, or threatened violence on multiple occasions; and who hasn't bragged about violating the consent of women on multiple occasions; among other things. YMMV on the importance of opposing violence and the abuse of women.
He's everything Republicans claim to hate, but he has the (R) and says mean things about brown people, so *shrug*.
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Old 03-18-2019, 04:36 PM
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This is a primary. What do you think a primary is, anyway? We're trying to decide which candidate is best (for whatever value of "best" you use). That means deciding that some candidates are better than others. Which, logically, also means deciding that some candidates are worse than others.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:05 PM
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I don't know about "gleefully", but yeah, I'm still glad he's our President and not the "lady" that undermined her husband's victims. How do you feel about Bill and Hillary Clinton?
Neat. Say, how do you reconcile your support for putting children in concentration camps with your claims that you oppose abortion for the sake of children? Do you cry "Fake news!" so you can pretend it isn't happening or do you convince yourself it's okay to put children in concentration camps because they aren't white or American?
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:15 PM
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This is a primary. What do you think a primary is, anyway? We're trying to decide which candidate is best (for whatever value of "best" you use). That means deciding that some candidates are better than others. Which, logically, also means deciding that some candidates are worse than others.
Those decisions will be mine. When it comes deciding which ones are worse I'll trust my own judgment over their opponents in a nasty race.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:21 PM
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I keep hearing this on these boards. Itís so odd, because I am personally acquainted with several Bernie people (all of them white men btw) who did sit out the general election or voted for Jill Stein. This is not some kind of a Manufactured by Russia deal. Itís real, and it could be a real problem, and those of us who wish to defeat Trump should not be pretending otherwise.
If they're Bernie Bros. then why didn't they do what Bernie asked them to and vote for Hillary? Don't let a handful of jerks and internet trolls convince you there was anything to this. Any real voter anything like your imagination tells you never would have voted for Hillary if Bernie hadn't run at all.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:24 PM
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Yeah, I'm sure that Joe Biden wouldn't have been one of the prime movers of the 2005 Bankruptcy Act if it had been before Congress in 2005, rather than in 1988. Oh wait...

Seriously, I'm looking forward to a battle royal between Elizabeth Warren and Joe Biden over the 2005 Bankruptcy Act. It will be a good, old-fashioned debate about policy, and Biden's reputation within the party will be devastated.
So that one issue to you is so important that you'd rather have Donald Trump get re-elected than the wrong Democratic candidate getting the nomination?

Every candidate needs to be asked:

What is more important, you being the Democratic candidate or Trump losing?
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:30 PM
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Yup, TriPolar, you'll decide whom to vote for on your primary ballot, just as I'll decide whom to vote for on mine. But I intend to make that decision based on information, and I don't have enough resources to singlehandedly find all of the relevant information on every candidate, and so my vote will be influenced by what others say. And, likewise, I also intend to influence other primary voters, so that they'll be more likely to vote in a way that I would prefer.
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Old 03-18-2019, 05:38 PM
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Neat. Say, how do you reconcile your support for putting children in concentration camps with your claims that you oppose abortion for the sake of children? Do you cry "Fake news!" so you can pretend it isn't happening or do you convince yourself it's okay to put children in concentration camps because they aren't white or American?
I think Jonathan Chance and / or Bone might be annoyed if I responded to this post in a substantive manner in this thread. You'll have to start another one if you want to find out the answer.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 03-18-2019 at 05:39 PM.
  #38  
Old 03-18-2019, 07:31 PM
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Indeed so. Both of you take it to the Pit or give it a rest.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:06 PM
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So they're supposed to somehow compete with each other without pointing out the flaws in the other candidates? You can't judge based only the "good" qualities.

What you are proposing would make it hard to pick a winner, making it hard for everyone to coalesce around a winner. That would make thing worse.

This isn't what Sanders did, alleging that the election itself is fraudulent and attacking the Democratic Party itself. He was saying the Dems were out to get him. That's where you cross the line. You can attack your opponent, but you do not attack the party you are running for. You don't attack the election itself, undermining confidence in the vote.

But fishing out the dirt on each candidate so people can decide what is and isn't relevant is great. Getting it out there before the general election during a time when fewer people are paying attention to the election is great.

I won't say anything bad about TriPolar, as I know what side he is on. But I've already started encountering conservatives pushing the narrative of Democrats being too divided, and playing up a slight disagreement as "cannibalizing your own." It's the conservatives who play up the division between AOC and the other congress people, too.

I don't think we should be helping out that conservative narrative by overhyping the divisions ourselves.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:35 PM
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So that one issue to you is so important that you'd rather have Donald Trump get re-elected than the wrong Democratic candidate getting the nomination?

Every candidate needs to be asked:

What is more important, you being the Democratic candidate or Trump losing?
Why, do you think that Biden's the only Dem that can beat Trump?

Hell, there's a plethora of reasons for the Dems to tell Biden to get lost. Here's Jamelle Bouie's:
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For decades Biden gave liberal cover to white backlash. He wasnít an incidental opponent of busing; he was a leader who helped derail integration. He didnít just vote for punitive legislation on crime and drugs; he wrote it. His political persona is still informed by that past, even if he were to repudiate those positions now. Biden could lead Democrats to victory over Trump, but his political style might affirm the assumptions behind Trumpism. The outward signs of our political dysfunction would be gone, but the disease would still remain.
There's also his support for retaining the filibuster, which, along with the Green New Deal or something at least as good, should together constitute a single-issue package for anyone who doesn't want to see the world burn up during their children's lifetimes: a Green New Deal to save the planet, and ditching the filibuster in order to pass the Green New Deal.

Yeah, Biden's awful on multiple fronts. But a lot of Americans who got clobbered in the Great Recession, got clobbered a second time by the bankruptcy 'reforms' that Uncle Joe inflicted on them. They should be told whose fingerprints were on them. This sham candidate needs and deserves to be unmasked.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:39 PM
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I think Jonathan Chance and / or Bone might be annoyed if I responded to this post in a substantive manner in this thread. You'll have to start another one if you want to find out the answer.
No I won't. There's already a pit thread with your name on it, that one will do. See ya there.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:42 PM
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Yeah, Biden's awful on multiple fronts. But a lot of Americans who got clobbered in the Great Recession, got clobbered a second time by the bankruptcy 'reforms' that Uncle Joe inflicted on them. They should be told whose fingerprints were on them. This sham candidate needs and deserves to be unmasked.
So better that Trump wins than Biden becomes the candidate, or even stays in the race? What are these things that disqualify Democrats from running? Who is the pristine candidate?
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Old 03-18-2019, 09:00 PM
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I don't think that Biden's the only one who can. But it looks, at this point, like he might have the best chance. That's not a be-all, end-all, depending on what those chances are, and the chances might certainly change before the primaries, but it's certainly relevant.
  #44  
Old 03-18-2019, 09:09 PM
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So better that Trump wins than Biden becomes the candidate, or even stays in the race?
yes!

i'm more likely to vote libertarian, but the worst thing trump has done in office is renew the sort of legislation that biden has actually written himself.

the wall is stupid-- hillary voted for it years before trump supported it. immigration is complicated, dems (even pm trudeau in canada) have said most of the things trump has said.

granted, the delivery upsets the left. if people paid more attention to votes, context and legislation, they would realise that biden is even farther from centre than trump is. if you believe in horseshoe theory, you should vote for trump to keep biden out-- or better yet, vote for someone based on the sort of legislation and civil liberties they actually support-- not their words on the campaign and other false promises.

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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
there's a plethora of reasons for the Dems to tell Biden to get lost.
like writing the patriot act, the biggest loss to the constitution since-- when?

sanders was fine. would be perfectly happy with president sanders. he would be president now, if not for hillary.

Last edited by customdistro; 03-18-2019 at 09:13 PM.
  #45  
Old 03-18-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
So better that Trump wins than Biden becomes the candidate, or even stays in the race?
So Trump's unbeatable, except by Biden.

Maybe you missed November 2018.

I don't think it'll crush the Dems' chances to have a debate over issues and policy. You apparently do. I don't think there's any way to resolve that except to agree to disagree.
Quote:
What are these things that disqualify Democrats from running?
Look for the words "single-issue package" in my previous post.
Quote:
Who is the pristine candidate?
'Pristine'? I brought up three different reasons why Biden shouldn't be considered. In a normal year, each of them would, IMHO, be disqualifying by itself.

In 2020, we've got to have a President who will do what's necessary to save the planet. Biden's not it. He'll be all gentlemanly with the Republicans, and the filibuster will stay, and they'll use it, and my son will live long enough to see what happens when we don't do something about global warming in time to make a difference.

There's three possibilities in 2020 and 2021:

1) Trump wins, and we do nothing about global warming.
2) A Dem wins, but we don't do much about global warming.
3) A Dem wins, and we go big in addressing global warming.

AFAIAC, #1 and #2 don't differ by enough to matter. Time is running out.

Even though I think he's far too inexperienced, I'd rather have Pete Buttigieg as the Dem nominee any day. Maybe he's never been more than the mayor of South Bend, but he knows what the score is. Biden's head is back with TipnRonnie.

Global warming's why Biden should at all costs be stopped, but the Bankruptcy Act is something that people have already gotten hammered by. Liz Warren knows this, and is ready to take him down.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 03-18-2019 at 09:20 PM.
  #46  
Old 03-18-2019, 10:35 PM
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I didn't say the candidates have to agree on everything, or anything. You're supposed to be a political party, you're supposed to have a common political philosophy that sets you apart from the other party. If you can't state what your personal approach to that is without criticizing others in your party then you don't have a case to state. This is not the time to decide what the Democratic Party is or should be. You should have been doing that for the last two years. This is the time to oust the worst president in our history. Don't do what the GOP expects you to do and divide your party.
The problem with this attitude is that it's not playing to win, it's playing to not lose. This gets you the Hillary, Kerry, Gore, and Dukakis campaigns.
  #47  
Old 03-19-2019, 12:35 AM
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nm

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 03-19-2019 at 12:36 AM.
  #48  
Old 03-19-2019, 06:27 AM
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Do you think the candidates believe beating Trump is more important than self-promotion and one-upsmanship?

Even if you are correct that unity will be better for beating Trump, I believe your view of pols is rather naive.
  #49  
Old 03-19-2019, 11:53 AM
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The problem with this attitude is that it's not playing to win, it's playing to not lose. This gets you the Hillary, Kerry, Gore, and Dukakis campaigns.
I agree. "I'm a Democrat, and I'm not Trump" may not be enough of a message to win. ("I'm not Trump" should have been enough for Hillary, and we saw how well that worked.) The Dem candidate better have charisma to burn and offer ideas credible enough to capture purple rust belters and suburbanites.

And the only way to suss that person out is through a year-plus of scrutiny that may, at times, get nasty.

I would hope that, once it's down to this person vs. Individual #1, Dem voters will forgive the nastiness and grasp the big picture.
__________________
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  #50  
Old 03-19-2019, 05:34 PM
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Do you think the candidates believe beating Trump is more important than self-promotion and one-upsmanship?
Well, only three of them so far believe in being able to do stuff once they beat Trump. (Warren, Buttigieg, and Inslee. Those are the only ones, AFAICT, who are willing to entertain the idea of killing the filibuster.) And since the world needs saving in fairly short order, that's rather important.
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