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Old 03-25-2019, 12:37 PM
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Arm me with facts -- how do we know Russia's interference was pro-Trump?


I'm arguing on Facebook with a Trump-supporter about Russian interference in the 2016 election. He claims that there's no evidence that they were trying to aid Trump, and were instead just sowing chaos.

I'm fairly certain that we know with a fair degree of certainty that he's wrong. But I'm not sure what to quote, where to look, etc. Can someone point me in the right direction to authoritatively refute him?

thanks!
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Old 03-25-2019, 12:58 PM
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From Barr's summary of the Mueller investigation, "...despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign."

Barr's summary is pretty much the most favorable reading of the Mueller report, and it says Russians were offering to help the Trump campaign.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:08 PM
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The Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee has concluded that the judgments of the CIA, NSA, and FBI that the Russians worked to elect Trump were based on sound intelligence, and that subsequent developments since January 2017 have bolstered that assessment.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...ity-assessment
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:23 PM
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Putin said at the Helsinki summit (otherwise known as DJT's performance review) that he wanted Donald to win.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxTheVool View Post
He claims that there's no evidence that they were trying to aid Trump, and were instead just sowing chaos...
A distinction without a difference.
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Old 03-25-2019, 02:54 PM
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What better way to sow chaos than to help Trump?
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:01 PM
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Yeah, sow chaos. Then you can grab 'em by the messy.
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Old 03-25-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
The Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee has concluded that the judgments of the CIA, NSA, and FBI that the Russians worked to elect Trump were based on sound intelligence, and that subsequent developments since January 2017 have bolstered that assessment.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...ity-assessment
Just what I was looking for, thanks.
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Old 03-25-2019, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
The Republican-led Senate Intelligence Committee has concluded that the judgments of the CIA, NSA, and FBI that the Russians worked to elect Trump were based on sound intelligence, and that subsequent developments since January 2017 have bolstered that assessment.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/...ity-assessment
There were some fictional treatments during the Cold War about "what if the Reds snuck a mole into the White House?". Do the three-letter agencies in Washington actually have a playbook for dealing with that?
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:50 PM
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There is also evidence that the Russians also encouraged anti-Trump protests. And according to Christopher Steele, his sources in the Kremlin dished enough dirt on Trump to kick off the special prosecutor. I hope we haven't forgotten that the whole Trump investigation was kicked off by a spy who used Kremlin sources who were willing to invent all sorts of scandalous stuff about Trump. Do you think any of that happened without Putin's approval?

This is right out of the Russian playbook. They try to get Kompromat on both sides, then leak it if they can't use it for blackmail. The point is to destabilize the country and increase the tensions between political factions and lower trust in democracy. They've been doing this crap for decades.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:28 PM
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Their goal wasn't so much to elect trump, but to damage Clinton. The actual results of the election probably surprised them as much as it did pretty much everybody else.
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Old 03-25-2019, 11:16 PM
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This isn't exactly a source, but it's well known that Hillary Clinton was 1) an expert in geopolitics and 2) as hawkish a Democrat as there were. Certainly not someone whom Russia would want in the Oval Office. Trump, on the other hand, was ignorant of a great many things, not keen on NATO or defending Ukraine, etc. and much more controllable by Russia.

But I think even the Russians themselves were as surprised as everyone on Election Night 2016. They probably didn't think Trump would or could pull it off.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:01 AM
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There is also evidence that the Russians also encouraged anti-Trump protests. And according to Christopher Steele, his sources in the Kremlin dished enough dirt on Trump to kick off the special prosecutor. I hope we haven't forgotten that the whole Trump investigation was kicked off by a spy who used Kremlin sources who were willing to invent all sorts of scandalous stuff about Trump. Do you think any of that happened without Putin's approval?
This.
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Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
Their goal wasn't so much to elect trump, but to damage Clinton. The actual results of the election probably surprised them as much as it did pretty much everybody else.
And this. The Russians tried to hack into the RNC servers and failed, but did hack into the DNC servers. They fed the fake Steele dossier to whoever they could find - opposition to Trump from Republicans, then opposition to Trump from Democrats (after Trump got the nomination).

Obvious geo-political troll is obvious.

Regards,
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
I hope we haven't forgotten that the whole Trump investigation was kicked off by a spy who used Kremlin sources who were willing to invent all sorts of scandalous stuff about Trump. Do you think any of that happened without Putin's approval?
I think there's about as much evidence to suggest that the Steele Dossier was part of Putin's plot as there is to suggest that Putin changed vote counts.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:34 AM
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I agree that the Russians were probably as surprised as anyone else by the election results. Their Plan A was a weakened President Clinton. But I'm also confident that they had contingency plans already in place to maximize their windfall from Trump's victory.
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Old 03-26-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
This.
Not that. As Ravenman pointed out, the right wing sources are dialing up the lies up to 11.

https://www.vox.com/2019/3/22/182770...ump-witch-hunt
Quote:
Fox News has normalized a lie about the origins of the Russia investigation
They want you to believe it began with the Steele dossier. It didn’t.
Quote:
The FBI’s investigation originated with George Papadopoulos, not Christopher Steele

We’ve known since December 2017 that the FBI’s counterintelligence investigation of the Trump campaign began in July 2016 — months before the FBI was even alerted to the existence of the Steele dossier.

The inciting incident, according to Sharon LaFraniere, Mark Mazzetti, and Matt Apuzzo at the New York Times, had to do with WikiLeaks, which published hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee (DNC) in July 2016. Those emails prompted Australia’s top diplomat in Britain to inform his American counterparts about a conversation he had two months earlier with George Papadopoulos, a foreign policy adviser to the Trump campaign.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:17 AM
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Yes, that.
Quote:
In April 2016, attorney Marc Elias separately hired Fusion GPS to investigate Trump on behalf of Hillary Clinton's campaign and the DNC. The Free Beacon stopped its backing when Trump became the presumptive Republican Party presidential nominee in May of 2016.[2] In June 2016, Fusion GPS subcontracted Steele's firm to compile the dossier.
Cite. Using the fake dossier to get the FISA warrant came later.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:35 AM
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Putin said at the Helsinki summit (otherwise known as DJT's performance review) that he wanted Donald to win.
He'll say anything pre-sex.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:38 AM
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Yes, that. Cite. Using the fake dossier to get the FISA warrant came later.

Regards,
Shodan
You are really ruining the word "dossier" you know. It is starting to sound like "Strawberries!"

Does the phrase "You need to get over it and move on" ring any bells?
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Yes, that. Cite. Using the fake dossier to get the FISA warrant came later.
From your cite:

Quote:
Overall, some allegations of the dossier have been corroborated,[26] others remain unverified and, according to a December 2018 Lawfare retrospective, "none of [the dossier], to our knowledge, has been disproven."[27]
Your assertion here is that Putin manipulated an experienced British intelligence operative... to tell him the truth? That's the story you're going with?

Last edited by Ravenman; 03-26-2019 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:19 PM
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The fake news convictions were all pro-Trump, anti-Hillary, IIRC. If not all, then most.
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:32 PM
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"Fake news convictions"?
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Old 03-26-2019, 01:21 PM
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I just heard a guy named Bash put it very concisely:

"We know the President asked for Russian assistance. We know the President received Russian assistance. We know the President benefited from Russian assistance. We know the President rewarded Russian assistance."
  #24  
Old 03-26-2019, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
From your cite:


Your assertion here is that Putin manipulated an experienced British intelligence operative... to tell him the truth? That's the story you're going with?
Fake dossier? When nothing has been disproved (it is more the opposite), it's "fake"?
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