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Old 03-28-2019, 02:39 AM
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Democrats Leaving Party Over "Socialism"


I currently volunteer for an organization that helps elect Democrats. Every day I come in I get about 2-3 calls from "life-long Democrats", often older retired voters, that either tell me they're leaving the party in protest, or numerous acquaintances of theirs are thinking about it. Not to an independent, like switching affiliations to Republican and voting Trump. And it's always out of fear of either the opioid crisis (apparently Democrats encourage addiction??), or Bernie's "Socialism". They really think Bernie is a full-blown Communist.

I voted for Bernie in 2016 and plan to do so again, but I can't believe how much hate from those "life-long Democrats" he's getting (along with AOC and the like). Of course, the people calling in are going to be those with the strongest opinions and I'm not using them to generalize the party too much.

BUT, is there a chance the Democrats really are losing the more centrist, Clinton voter, block of voters? I don't think nominating someone like Beto would do any good based on what I read and the calls I get.

It might be worth noting I live in an R-leaning state, but I've had people call across state lines, for reasons unclear.
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Old 03-28-2019, 02:56 AM
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Why Bernie and AOC ever decided to use the S word is beyond me. Too many millennial strategists I guess. Don’t they know how that word plays to most Americans? The worst part is that they aren’t even real socialists so they have all the stigma for no reason. Stupid.
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:18 AM
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I had to double-check to make sure this wasn't a zombie thread. It's not like anyone just now realized Sanders has been labeled a socialist. And it's awfully early in the campaign season to decide Bernie's got the nomination sewed up. Why would someone who's a "lifelong Democrat" and who apparently voted for HC in 2016 switch to Trump NOW?

I think you're getting calls from wing-nutty Trumpites claiming to be Democrats.
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:21 AM
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Do you check to see if those are registered Democrats calling?
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
I think you're getting calls from wing-nutty Trumpites claiming to be Democrats.
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Do you check to see if those are registered Democrats calling?
This is a good point I hadn't thought of. I wouldn't know or be able to check if they were actually registered Democrats.

Either way, I don't doubt there are Democrats honestly turned off by "socialism". Bernie isn't even a real socialist anyway, and he does a horrible job explaining that.

I hope the primaries play out civilly.
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:40 AM
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So in the end there's no proof that any Democrats have left the party because of socialism.

This is a complete exoneration of the Democratic Party.
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:36 AM
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This is a good point I hadn't thought of. I wouldn't know or be able to check if they were actually registered Democrats.
To be clear, the suspicion is because "Democrats are leaving the party in droves" astroturfing is all the rage these days. See "WalkAway" and "Jexodus".
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:59 AM
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The point is to convince party apparatchiks that "socialism" is poisonous to their voter bases, in order to encourage them not to support anything that could potentially be labeled socialism.

You know, like paper bags, having to ask for a straw, or giving people the right to vote.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:03 AM
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Tell those callers to turn off Fox news, and if they refuse then the Republicans can have them.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:07 AM
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I think you're getting 'astroturfed'.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:18 AM
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There are plenty of people who genuinely identify as life-long Democrats and are registered Democrats in states with closed primaries, but who haven't voted for actual Democratic candidates for a long time. Sometimes they get called "ancestral Democrats."

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 03-28-2019 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 03-28-2019, 05:28 AM
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I think you're getting 'astroturfed'.
Or are astroturfing. Most likely what asahi said.
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:29 AM
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I currently volunteer for an organization that helps elect Democrats. Every day I come in I get about 2-3 calls from "life-long Democrats" that tell me they're leaving the party in protest,.
May I ask which organization this is, but more importantly--why are these people calling you?

Do people just wake up one morning and decide to pick up the phone and announce to a total stranger their political motives?
If so, it sounds like trolling, or those irritating posts on Facebook....but done in person on the telephone, instead of online.That would explain why so many of them are elderly, perhaps. Still, I wonder who they are, and how they know you.





[on edit]: I just read the above post, and had to google the term astroturfing. I hadn't heard it before. But it seems that it's a one-word description of my entire post.Sorry .

Last edited by chappachula; 03-28-2019 at 06:31 AM.
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Old 03-28-2019, 06:37 AM
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May I ask which organization this is, but more importantly--why are these people calling you?

Do people just wake up one morning and decide to pick up the phone and announce to a total stranger their political motives?
If so, it sounds like trolling, or those irritating posts on Facebook....but done in person on the telephone, instead of online.That would explain why so many of them are elderly, perhaps. Still, I wonder who they are, and how they know you.

[on edit]: I just read the above post, and had to google the term astroturfing. I hadn't heard it before. But it seems that it's a one-word description of my entire post.Sorry .
I'm glad you wrote out your post. It's exactly what I was thinking as well. I know what astroturfing means, but your post describes the whole process. Who would spend their time calling someone to tell them something that doesn't do anything?


ETA: I read the title of the thread from the front page. It left out the word 'socialism'. I knew that was the last word of the title without even looking.

Last edited by Heffalump and Roo; 03-28-2019 at 06:40 AM. Reason: socialism
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:49 AM
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So in the end there's no proof that any Democrats have left the party because of socialism.

This is a complete exoneration of the Democratic Party.
I see what you did here. I don't dislike it.
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by leavesoflight View Post
Every day I come in I get about 2-3 calls from "life-long Democrats", often older retired voters, that either tell me they're leaving the party in protest, or numerous acquaintances of theirs are thinking about it. Not to an independent, like switching affiliations to Republican and voting Trump. And it's always out of fear of either the opioid crisis (apparently Democrats encourage addiction??), or Bernie's "Socialism". They really think Bernie is a full-blown Communist.
Also, the Democrats are not doing enough to catch moose and squirrel!
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Old 03-28-2019, 08:18 AM
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These "older, retired voters", are they upset over being able to participate in that socialistic program known as Medicare?
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Old 03-28-2019, 08:29 AM
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Why Bernie and AOC ever decided to use the S word is beyond me. Too many millennial strategists I guess. Donít they know how that word plays to most Americans? The worst part is that they arenít even real socialists so they have all the stigma for no reason. Stupid.
This isn't some recent thing. I remember Sanders from back when he was Mayor of Burlington, Vermont. And he openly ran as a Socialist.
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Old 03-28-2019, 08:35 AM
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BUT, is there a chance the Democrats really are losing the more centrist, Clinton voter, block of voters?
No, they're not. Because the Republicans are not going to nominate a centrist. They're going to nominate a right wing conservative; the same as they have for over thirty years.

These people you're describing are not centrist independents. They're people who like to think of themselves as centrist independents while always finding a reason to vote for the right wing Republican candidate.
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Old 03-28-2019, 09:44 AM
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My father called himself a "liberal" for his entire life, and I think the last Democrat he voted for in any office was Carter. See, he would vote for Democrats, except they were all sinners. And the greater sins committed by Republicans were OK, because they were forgiven.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:05 AM
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Preach it! My so-called independent mother claims she votes for the person not the party. Funny how from any office from dog catcher to President, that person has a R next to their name. I snapped at her after too much wine one night and told her the last time she voted for a Democrat was JFK!
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:40 AM
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I'll step up and say I am a registered Democrat and I am immensely turned off by Sanders, AOC, etc. whom I would lump into the "progressive wing". I would never consider voting for Trump, or in fact any Republican for any office, but I will be immensely unhappy if Sanders is the nominee or if the Democratic Party becomes the party of AOC-like members. I would most likely move my party affiliation to Independent, stop donating, and if my choice in an election is Extreme Left vs. Extreme Right I'd start abstaining from voting.

I disdain extremism in all its forms and in my view this new "progressive wing" is just another version of The Tea Party within the Republican Party. Sanders, AOC, et.al, are more interested in ideological purity and tilting at their pet boogeymen. There seems to be no consideration for actual effective and obtainable governance that moves important Democratic policy positions forward. If you are in the Democratic Party today and voice any opposition to the progressive left, you are being made to feel very unwelcome. The progressive left of AOC and Sanders have even borrowed the Tea Party approach of labeling anyone in the Democratic Party who doesn't provide full-throated 100 support behind every word that falls from their mouths as Democrats-In-Name-Only (DINO). They seem to have zero comprehension how the rest of the country views their message or approach to complex issues and they no care for the consequences of their sweeping policy positions would have on real-life people.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:59 AM
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Sanders, AOC, et.al, are more interested in ideological purity and tilting at their pet boogeymen. There seems to be no consideration for actual effective and obtainable governance that moves important Democratic policy positions forward. If you are in the Democratic Party today and voice any opposition to the progressive left, you are being made to feel very unwelcome. The progressive left of AOC and Sanders have even borrowed the Tea Party approach of labeling anyone in the Democratic Party who doesn't provide full-throated 100 support behind every word that falls from their mouths as Democrats-In-Name-Only (DINO).
Both Sanders and AOC are supporting the moderate approach of fixing the ACA now rather than insisting on their progressive plan of Medicare for All.

Progressives Support Shoring Up ACA Before Tackling Medicare For All

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Old 03-28-2019, 11:08 AM
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Preach it! My so-called independent mother claims she votes for the person not the party. Funny how from any office from dog catcher to President, that person has a R next to their name. I snapped at her after too much wine one night and told her the last time she voted for a Democrat was JFK!
My favorite is, "I didn't leave the Democratic party; the Democratic party left me."

Now let's see, exactly when did that Democratic party leave these people? Was that in 1948, when Truman integrated the military, or was that in 1964-68, when the Democrats started rolling out civil rights legislation?

Translation: "I liked the Democrats better when they were the party of Woodrow Wilson and Stephen Douglas -- well, I liked Douglas, at least."

Last edited by asahi; 03-28-2019 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:36 PM
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I totally believe the description of events in the OP is happening, prolly everywhere in the country. By the time Election Day 2020 rolls around, there likely won't be but a couple hundred Democrats left in the country!
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:36 PM
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Just tell folks that electing folks like AOC is necessary as long as the Republicans elect folks like Louis Gohmert, Mo Brooks, and Steve King. We're just trying to keep the center in, well, the center.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:41 PM
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Published on CNBC 21 hours ago.

Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college

Quote:
A CNBC survey finds majority support for five of six proposals that have been percolating in the national debate mostly.
. . .
These include paid maternity leave, government funding for childcare and boosting the minimum wage.
. . .
The CNBC All-America Economic Survey was conducted March 18-21 of 800 Americans nationwide.
Paid maternity leave 84% support
Gov't funding for childcare 75% support
Boosting minimum wage 60% support
Tuition free public/state college 57% support
Medicare for all 54% support

Quote:
On some of the issues, the survey even found majority Republican support.
. . .
"These are bread and butter kitchen table issues that families are dealing with if you're making less than $75,000 and I think that's contributing to the fairly high Republican support numbers,'' said Micah Roberts, partner at Public Opinion Strategies, the Republican pollster for the survey.
When people say that Progressive policies aren't popular with the American people, they're not only wrong about the Democrats, they're wrong about many Independents and Republicans as well.

The majority of Americans support a number of Progressive issues, some even with a majority of Republican support.

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Originally Posted by sciurophobic View Post
Both Sanders and AOC are supporting the moderate approach of fixing the ACA now rather than insisting on their progressive plan of Medicare for All.

Progressives Support Shoring Up ACA Before Tackling Medicare For All
I'm surprised anyone would think that the legislators supporting Medicare for all would be OK with millions of people losing their coverage under the ACA simply because Medicare for all can't yet be passed.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Heffalump and Roo View Post
Published on CNBC 21 hours ago.

Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college



Paid maternity leave 84% support
Gov't funding for childcare 75% support
Boosting minimum wage 60% support
Tuition free public/state college 57% support
Medicare for all 54% support



When people say that Progressive policies aren't popular with the American people, they're not only wrong about the Democrats, they're wrong about many Independents and Republicans as well.
From your cite -
Quote:
When it comes to paying for these proposals, Americans are not shy about supporting higher taxes on the wealthy but they balk when it comes to taxing themselves. Sixty-one percent back the proposal from Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., to tax wealth in excess of $50 million. And 58 percent back an idea, loosely tied to comments from Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, to boost taxes on the wealthy to 70 percent on earnings above $10 million. Only 46 percent of the public supports repealing the 2017 tax cuts and just 30 percent want to eliminate all deductions, such as for home mortgages and charitable giving.
The Democratic spin on the 2017 tax cuts, that they were just a benefit for the rich, doesn't seem to be working.

It would be interesting to run the figures, and find out how much the tax on wealth over $50 million and incomes over $10 million would raise, and then re-ask the questions.

People want freebies. As your survey shows, this is hardly confined to Democrats.

Regards,
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Old 03-28-2019, 02:18 PM
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Well, yes, they were just a benefit for the rich. A lot of middle-class folks saw their own personal taxes rise in the "cut".

Which Democratic policies were the ones supported by a majority of Republicans?
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:09 PM
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From your cite - The Democratic spin on the 2017 tax cuts, that they were just a benefit for the rich, doesn't seem to be working.
It might not be a majority, but tax season isn't over yet, and 46% is getting pretty close to a majority. I'd like to see that one revisited later in the year.

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It would be interesting to run the figures, and find out how much the tax on wealth over $50 million and incomes over $10 million would raise, and then re-ask the questions.
Quote:
It is projected that the tax would raise about $2.75 trillion in revenue over 10 years. To get a sense of that magnitude, recall that the Trump tax cuts lost less revenue (just under $2 trillion) than this tax allegedly gains. That’s a lot of tax progressivity pushing back on the highly regressive Trump cuts.

Sen. Warren’s plan to tax the ultrawealthy is a smart idea whose time has come in The Washington Post


$2.75T over 10 years. In which direction do you think this would affect the survey?


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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
People want freebies. As your survey shows, this is hardly confined to Democrats.

Regards,
Shodan
Oddly though, people didn't go for UBI, which is a freebie. I don't think there's enough awareness about that for people to know what it is.

Regards,
Heffalump and Roo

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Which Democratic policies were the ones supported by a majority of Republicans?
The government-supported childcare (56%) and paid maternity leave (73%) had majority Republican support. The article mentioned something about Trump, but I didn't understand the reference.

Quote:
Importantly, the survey finds that four of the proposals --- on maternity leave, child care, raising the minimum wage and tuition free college --- have majority support in Republican congressional districts. But the pollsters are skeptical this means any of these proposal will be enacted.
But the last two, miniumum wage and tuition free college, don't have majority Republican support overall, based on the article. I'm not sure what distinction they're drawing there between majority Republican support and majority support in Republican congressional districts.

I should also add that I don't know which of the policies originated as Democratic. Even ACA wasn't originated as a Democratic policy. The policies in the survey are getting pushed on the Progressive platform now though.

Last edited by Heffalump and Roo; 03-28-2019 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:16 PM
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So in the end there's no proof that any Democrats have left the party because of socialism.

This is a complete exoneration of the Democratic Party.
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Originally Posted by Red Wiggler View Post
I see what you did here. I don't dislike it.
Red Wiggler is in LOVE with it and wants to MARRY IT!
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:42 PM
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Sen. Warrenís plan to tax the ultrawealthy is a smart idea whose time has come in The Washington Post


$2.75T over 10 years. In which direction do you think this would affect the survey?
Depends if people believe $275 billion is enough to pay for free tuition and M4A. (It won't - it won't even eliminate the current deficit.)

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 03-28-2019, 04:16 PM
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Depends if people believe $275 billion is enough to pay for free tuition and M4A. (It won't - it won't even eliminate the current deficit.)
Haha. That's like comparing apples and oranges, then throwing in some mangoes and coconut.

It would be difficult to eliminate the current deficit when the latest tax plan just blasted a $2T hole in it. If people aren't worried about that, I don't see why they'd be worried about eliminating it.

Free tuition is estimated to be $75B a year by Bernie Sanders back in 2016. If that's a decent estimate, then the $275B should easily cover that.

As for Medicare for all, the messaging has to include the idea that the increase in tax would be offset by the decrease in insurance premiums and medical expenses not covered by insurance. As long as that's a wash, people wouldn't be worse off.
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Old 03-28-2019, 08:41 PM
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Re: the OP, they could be real-life concern trolls. But even if they're not, you're always going to have some small percentage of wing nuts of any political persuasion. And IME it's the wing nuts who are more likely to call or write. Absent polling, it's hard take anything useful from individuals.

Last edited by Ruken; 03-28-2019 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 03-29-2019, 07:04 AM
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As for Medicare for all, the messaging has to include the idea that the increase in tax would be offset by the decrease in insurance premiums and medical expenses not covered by insurance. As long as that's a wash, people wouldn't be worse off.
We've discussed this a lot here. It won't be a wash.

If we cut significantly on administrative costs, AND if we reduce payments to doctors and health care providers such that they lose money on 80% of their patients, AND significantly cut drug costs, AND double personal and corporate income taxes, that will not cover M4A. Doubling taxes on everyone - everyone, not "the rich", not "the 1%", not "the other guy" - instead of insurance premiums will not cover M4A.

So, if Democrats try to include the idea that tax increases will be offset by reducing insurance premiums, they will be lying. Maybe they can get away with it - as I said, people love free stuff. Maybe this time "the average family will see its premiums go down by $2500 a year and your taxes will double" will work.

Maybe.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:20 AM
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This is a good point I hadn't thought of. I wouldn't know or be able to check if they were actually registered Democrats.
What? Why not? In most states which primary people vote in is a matter of public record. You should be able to look it up in 10 minutes. It's not a perfect measure of whether someone is a 'registered democrat' or not but it's pretty good.
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:25 AM
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My favorite is, "I didn't leave the Democratic party; the Democratic party left me."
Yeah, my dad brought that one out a year or so back. Without thinking, I snapped back, "Yeah, we kicked out all the racists."

It was a tense Thanksgiving.
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:27 AM
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Yeah, my dad brought that one out a year or so back. Without thinking, I snapped back, "Yeah, we kicked out all the racists."

It was a tense Thanksgiving.
Ippon! Mr. Chance
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:31 AM
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I love the way the people who voted Republican because they were Economic Conservatives have disappeared. Of course it was always just a cover for their various bigotries, they still vote Republican.
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:36 AM
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And, honestly, most of those who claim they won't if AOC or Bernie or something take over still will. Especially with the older cohorts changing voting patterns is rare and changing it to an extent of voting for the other party is vanishingly rare.

When you look at voting patterns you tend to find that even among so-called 'independents' there are very few who don't consistently vote for one party or the other. They're just not the sort to join or get involved.
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Old 03-29-2019, 09:30 AM
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I have mentioned this before, but Democrats don't have to worry about moderates voting for Trump instead of some extreme progressive - they need to worry about them not voting at all.

The Trump faction in the GOP will vote for Trump no matter what. The anti-Trump faction in the Democratic party will vote for the Dem no matter what. Moderate Dems who can't bring themselves to support Trump but also can't support a socialist stay home. Moderate Republicans who can't support a socialist will IMO be more likely to vote for Trump.

I didn't vote for Trump. If the Dems nominate Sanders or someone like that in 2020 (I don't think they will, but they might) I probably will vote for Trump. Because it is possible to have a worse President than Trump.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 03-29-2019, 02:00 PM
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This smells a lot like astroturfing. I dont believe a word of it.
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Old 03-29-2019, 02:53 PM
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I currently volunteer for an organization that helps elect Democrats. Every day I come in I get about 2-3 calls from "life-long Democrats", often older retired voters, that either tell me they're leaving the party in protest, or numerous acquaintances of theirs are thinking about it. Not to an independent, like switching affiliations to Republican and voting Trump. And it's always out of fear of either the opioid crisis (apparently Democrats encourage addiction??), or Bernie's "Socialism". They really think Bernie is a full-blown Communist.

I voted for Bernie in 2016 and plan to do so again, but I can't believe how much hate from those "life-long Democrats" he's getting (along with AOC and the like). Of course, the people calling in are going to be those with the strongest opinions and I'm not using them to generalize the party too much.

BUT, is there a chance the Democrats really are losing the more centrist, Clinton voter, block of voters? I don't think nominating someone like Beto would do any good based on what I read and the calls I get.

It might be worth noting I live in an R-leaning state, but I've had people call across state lines, for reasons unclear.
Redirect them to Andrew Yang
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Old 03-29-2019, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan_Liam View Post
Redirect them to Andrew Yang
Not sure directing old retirees to a con man is the socially responsible thing to do.
  #45  
Old 03-30-2019, 01:07 AM
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The radicals hack out the path and clear the camp site. The progressives build the cabins and the liberals show up when the hot showers are installed.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Depends if people believe $275 billion is enough to pay for free tuition and M4A. (It won't - it won't even eliminate the current deficit.)

Regards,
Shodan
We're aware it isn't. M4A is funded by a payroll taxes and progressive taxes. The savings from not paying premiums, copays, deductibles, etc will offset the 6-12% payroll tax that is split between employer and employee.
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  #47  
Old 03-30-2019, 09:00 AM
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The radicals hack out the path and clear the camp site. The progressives build the cabins and the liberals show up when the hot showers are installed.
Is there a difference between progressives and liberals?
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  #48  
Old 03-30-2019, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
We're aware it isn't. M4A is funded by a payroll taxes and progressive taxes. The savings from not paying premiums, copays, deductibles, etc will offset the 6-12% payroll tax that is split between employer and employee.
We've gone over this several times. Doubling federal personal and corporate income taxes will not pay for M4A even if major cuts in spending are implemented and significant administrative savings are realized.

Regards,
Shodan
  #49  
Old 03-30-2019, 03:51 PM
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We've gone over this several times. Doubling federal personal and corporate income taxes will not pay for M4A even if major cuts in spending are implemented and significant administrative savings are realized.

Regards,
Shodan
How about a payroll tax set at the same level as company paid health insurance premiums?
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Old 03-30-2019, 04:03 PM
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We've gone over this several times.....
Well, that certainly settles that!

Last edited by elucidator; 03-30-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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