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  #51  
Old 04-04-2019, 10:12 PM
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Public service announcement... Orrin Hatch retired January 3, 2019. He is not currently a senator.
  #52  
Old 04-04-2019, 10:29 PM
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Looks like the head of the IRS, Charles Rettig, is just "some guy" that was already part of the upper-level IRS apparatus, with no particular connection to Trump and probably no strong job prospect worries. So unless he's a surprise MAGA-hat, I imagine that the most he'll do is plead a labor shortage and tell them that it will take a few weeks to scrounge the documents up.
Are you sure about that?

Politico

Wiki

He seems to be a 35 year Beverly Hills tax attorney who was on some advisory boards for the California FTB and the iRS but not an 'upper-level' IRS employee until named by Trump.
  #53  
Old 04-04-2019, 11:21 PM
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If you own a business, you can write off certain debts on your tax returns, so your statement is incorrect.
Are you sure about that? A company can write-off expenses, not debt in general.

IOW, please provide a cite.
  #54  
Old 04-04-2019, 11:48 PM
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Are you sure about that?

[...]

Wiki
"In 2010–2011, Rettig was appointed by the IRS to serve as Chairman of the IRS Advisory Council (IRSAC) for the last year of his three-year term."


Which, actually is not correct. He was on the IRSAC from 2008 to 2011. He was the chairman of the council for the last year.
  #55  
Old 04-05-2019, 12:26 AM
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Were all the "donations" of the Trump Foundation made public? Where did the "$7 to Boy Scouts" info come from? That is my go-to example of how petty this criminal family is.
  #56  
Old 04-05-2019, 12:41 AM
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I'm not a lawyer but reading over the statue that was linked to above, it appears that it is required to be released in a closed door session and it is illegal for any employee of officer of the US government (which as assume includes members of congress) to reveal them or any of the information contained inside.
Even if it does apply to members of Congress, that isn't absolute due to the speech or debate clause. It might be illegal for a member of Congress to release the returns to the press, but nothing said during an official proceeding can be a crime.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 04-05-2019 at 12:44 AM.
  #57  
Old 04-05-2019, 08:38 AM
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So, no, it has never been used this way.
Heh, nice goalpost move: First you cast doubt on whether it "has been used before", and then when you're shown that it has, you modify your claim to "has never been used this way" (emphasis added).

And as other posters have pointed out, the reason that this particular law has never been invoked before specifically to request Presidential or even Presidential-candidate tax returns is that for the past several decades, Presidents and Presidential candidates have voluntarily released their tax returns.

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Originally Posted by Shodan
You're missing the point, which is that it is going to be a liability for everybody, not just politicians, and especially not just for politicians the Dems don't like.
As I pointed out, there is nothing new about invoking Section 6103(f) to request tax data about non-politicians. The only new thing here is invoking it specifically to request the tax returns of a sitting President. And the only reason that's new is that no previous President in the last 40 years has been enough of a shameless grifter to try to hide his tax returns from the public in the first place.

So no, the only one missing the point here is you.
  #58  
Old 04-05-2019, 08:55 AM
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If you own a business, you can write off certain debts on your tax returns, so your statement is incorrect.
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Are you sure about that? A company can write-off expenses, not debt in general.

IOW, please provide a cite.
You ever deduct mortgage interest? Businesses can do the same thing.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p53...link1000243138
  #59  
Old 04-05-2019, 09:01 AM
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And the only reason that's new is that no previous President in the last 40 years has been enough of a shameless grifter to try to hide his tax returns from the public in the first place.

So no, the only one missing the point here is you.
Right. One primary purpose of the law was to have recourse to deal with a corrupt president. Now that we have corrupt president, they want to stick their heads in the sand. Trump isn't the only shameless one.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:02 AM
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You ever deduct mortgage interest? Businesses can do the same thing.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p53...link1000243138
It may be nitpicking but the interest is an expense, not the debt itself.
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  #61  
Old 04-05-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
Are you sure about that? A company can write-off expenses, not debt in general.

IOW, please provide a cite.
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Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
You ever deduct mortgage interest? Businesses can do the same thing.

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p53...link1000243138
I was thinking of this, which is writing off debts that are owed to you.

You can also write off the net loss of a business, which can be construed as a debt. Doesn't get you out of paying the debt, but you can still write it off.

As the King of Debt told us, he loves debt. I'm confident a squiz of his tax returns will disclose why.
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:07 AM
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Well, I myself am concerned for all those future presidents who refuse to show their returns and provide bullshit reasons for not doing so while demonstrating repeated and clear indications of conflict of interest and acceptance of emoluments. Who's thinking of them?


You mean the ones who promised to release their returns and didn’t?
  #63  
Old 04-05-2019, 11:16 AM
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Looks like the head of the IRS, Charles Rettig, is just "some guy" that was already part of the upper-level IRS apparatus, with no particular connection to Trump and probably no strong job prospect worries. So unless he's a surprise MAGA-hat, I imagine that the most he'll do is plead a labor shortage and tell them that it will take a few weeks to scrounge the documents up.

I would expect the principal angle for defense, if Trump chooses to fight it, would be to plead unconstitutionality. For example, he could take the Roe v. Wade defense and say that his tax returns should be private on the basis of the penumbra of privacy enshrined into the Bill of Rights. But I assume that there are any other number of angles he could take, given that he is aware of the request and lives in a country where you can take pretty much anything whatsoever to court and, given that he's the President, it would be unlikely that the court would decide that the argument was too stupid to allow to proceed to trial.

Though, whether Trump will fight it or not...who knows? On the one hand, he's already had the FBI go through all of it and take everything that there possibly is to take to convict him of criminal activities out and note it down. At this point, he's already boned in every way that really matters. But, Trump probably fears embarrassment more than he fears jail, so the big question will be: Just how embarrassing are the numbers in his returns? How much debt is he in?
And just who does he owe the money to?
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  #64  
Old 04-05-2019, 11:17 AM
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You can also write off the net loss of a business, which can be construed as a debt. Doesn't get you out of paying the debt, but you can still write it off.
A business that loses money isn't necessarily in debt, but that still would be an embarrassment for Trump. In general, the write-offs or deductions could contradict statements he has said about his "successes."

Other embarrassing things could be: showing he isn't as rich as he says he is; showing he doesn't give to charity as much as he says he does; showing income from disreputable sources (like Russian interests, maybe); income that indicates conflicts of interest; income funneled through all his LLCs; foreign taxes he has paid and where; and how much he has personally benefited from the tax law of 2017.
  #65  
Old 04-05-2019, 11:19 AM
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A business that loses money isn't necessarily in debt, but that still would be an embarrassment for Trump. In general, the write-offs or deductions could contradict statements he has said about his "successes."

Other embarrassing things could be: showing he isn't as rich as he says he is; showing he doesn't give to charity as much as he says he does; showing income from disreputable sources (like Russian interests, maybe); income that indicates conflicts of interest; income funneled through all his LLCs; foreign taxes he has paid and where; and how much he has personally benefited from the tax law of 2017.
I'll certainly agree with all you said here. And I would only add that he could write off debt funneled through all his LLCs, too.
  #66  
Old 04-05-2019, 11:19 AM
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To be clear - the chairmen of the House Ways and Means Committee and the Senate Finance Committee can request the tax returns of any American, at any time, for any reason? So Chuck Grassley could just say, "I feel like having a peek at Jussie Smollett's tax returns - fork them over"?

Hmm.

As I have mentioned, everyone might want to keep in mind that genies are notoriously hard to get back into bottles.

Regards,
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Seems disingenuous to worry about this issue when you argued that Merrick Garland being denied a vote because not having a vote counted as "advice and consent" based on strict reading of the text, but now we have a genie in the bottle issue because of strict reading of the text.
  #67  
Old 04-05-2019, 01:51 PM
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Were all the "donations" of the Trump Foundation made public? Where did the "$7 to Boy Scouts" info come from? That is my go-to example of how petty this criminal family is.
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A business that loses money isn't necessarily in debt, but that still would be an embarrassment for Trump. In general, the write-offs or deductions could contradict statements he has said about his "successes."

Other embarrassing things could be: showing he isn't as rich as he says he is; showing he doesn't give to charity as much as he says he does; showing income from disreputable sources (like Russian interests, maybe); income that indicates conflicts of interest; income funneled through all his LLCs; foreign taxes he has paid and where; and how much he has personally benefited from the tax law of 2017.
A timely article, then:

What might be lurking in Trump's tax returns

Quote:
So what might we find?

It goes without saying that he acts like a man with something to hide. But what, in the fevered brain of Donald J. Trump, qualifies as something worth hiding?

As Ryan Lizza wrote in The New Yorker, "Trump's full tax returns ... would reveal how much he donates to charity, what tax rate he pays, whether he pays federal taxes at all, and whether he receives income from foreign sources that could create conflicts of interest. They would shed light on whether his net worth is as high as he claims."

Trump is vain and egotistical. He likes to try to wow people with his fortune. And we know he's gone to extraordinary lengths to inflate — and straight-up lie about — the scale of his wealth. A former Forbes reporter said that, in the 1980s, Trump impersonated an aid on a phone call to claim riches he didn't have in order to get himself on the Forbes 400 list — the magazine's annual ranking of the wealthiest Americans. Perhaps Trump doesn't want to release his tax returns simply because his fortune is actually unimpressive when compared to those of other tycoons.
  #68  
Old 04-05-2019, 02:49 PM
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Looks like the head of the IRS, Charles Rettig, is just "some guy" that was already part of the upper-level IRS apparatus, with no particular connection to Trump and probably no strong job prospect worries. So unless he's a surprise MAGA-hat, I imagine that the most he'll do is plead a labor shortage and tell them that it will take a few weeks to scrounge the documents up.
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
"In 2010–2011, Rettig was appointed by the IRS to serve as Chairman of the IRS Advisory Council (IRSAC) for the last year of his three-year term."


Which, actually is not correct. He was on the IRSAC from 2008 to 2011. He was the chairman of the council for the last year.
I remain unconvinced that he is just 'some guy' from the upper-level IRS apparatus - I doubt an advisory position would put put him on the payroll as an upper-level government bureaucrat.

An article from today Man In Charge Of Releasing Trump’s Taxes Believes Trump Shouldn’t Release Them is discouraging.

Quote:
Internal Revenue Service Commissioner Chuck Rettig let everyone know he believed one thing before he was tapped to head the IRS: Trump should not release his tax returns.

“Is there any legal impediment to Trump publicly releasing his tax returns? Absolutely not,” Rettig wrote in a February 2016 Forbes column. “Would any experienced tax lawyer representing Trump in an IRS audit advise him to publicly release his tax returns during the audit? Absolutely not.”
  #69  
Old 04-05-2019, 02:55 PM
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I remain unconvinced that he is just 'some guy' from the upper-level IRS apparatus - I doubt an advisory position would put put him on the payroll as an upper-level government bureaucrat.

An article from today Man In Charge Of Releasing Trump’s Taxes Believes Trump Shouldn’t Release Them is discouraging.
Yeah, I saw this post from CalMeacham this morning, just before I left for work. My quicky-check on the guy seems to have been insufficient.
  #70  
Old 04-05-2019, 03:13 PM
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Not a quote attributed to jasq. SImply somethign he quoted:

Internal Revenue Service Commissioner Chuck Rettig let everyone know he believed one thing before he was tapped to head the IRS: Trump should not release his tax returns.

“Is there any legal impediment to Trump publicly releasing his tax returns? Absolutely not,” Rettig wrote in a February 2016 Forbes column. “Would any experienced tax lawyer representing Trump in an IRS audit advise him to publicly release his tax returns during the audit? Absolutely not.”
There is certainly a difference between saying a lawyer would advise a client against something (I agree he very likely might do so; lawyers are cautious about such matters) and saying I will not follow a directive to do something.
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:22 PM
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I predict that House Ways and Means Committee vs Donald Trump will be decided in the Supreme Court by a 5-4 vote. Chief Justice Roberts' will be the only vote in doubt.

Any gamblers in the house?
6-3 or 7-2 against Trump. Roberts is definitely on the majority side here, joined by Kavanaugh and possibly Gorsuch.
  #72  
Old 04-05-2019, 03:27 PM
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Trump's tax returns may not necessarily reveal his worth, particularly if the money is tied up in hundreds of different smaller LLCs.

I think what Democrats want to do is to be able to use his tax returns to start building paper trails. It starts with naming names. Whom does he owe? Who owes him? Who does business with him? What kind of business do they do together? Where are they? How are they employed?
  #73  
Old 04-05-2019, 03:29 PM
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6-3 or 7-2 against Trump. Roberts is definitely on the majority side here, joined by Kavanaugh and possibly Gorsuch.
I don't see how SCOTUS could rule against the House. The law clearly says that they can request a tax return, and the law cited is the law that was enacted specifically with the POTUS in mind.

I think Trump will get subpoenaed and he'll probably just tell the House to fuck off. And then things could get interesting.
  #74  
Old 04-05-2019, 04:16 PM
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A business that loses money isn't necessarily in debt, but that still would be an embarrassment for Trump. In general, the write-offs or deductions could contradict statements he has said about his "successes."

Other embarrassing things could be: showing he isn't as rich as he says he is; showing he doesn't give to charity as much as he says he does; showing income from disreputable sources (like Russian interests, maybe); income that indicates conflicts of interest; income funneled through all his LLCs; foreign taxes he has paid and where; and how much he has personally benefited from the tax law of 2017.
All of this gives Trump an incentive to try to keep his returns hidden.

And we can't rule out the possibility that the returns will reveal actual tax fraud by Trump. He would know that such a situation would test the infamous Justice Department Guideline (preventing indictment of sitting presidents) like nothing else, so far, has done.
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Old 04-05-2019, 04:21 PM
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All of this gives Trump an incentive to try to keep his returns hidden.

And we can't rule out the possibility that the returns will reveal actual tax fraud by Trump. He would know that such a situation would test the infamous Justice Department Guideline (preventing indictment of sitting presidents) like nothing else, so far, has done.
Tax fraud crossed my mind as well.
  #76  
Old 04-05-2019, 04:25 PM
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This looks like it's shaping up to be the litmus test. Can Trump and/or those enabling him simply, blatantly violate the law? Is Trump above the law? Stay tuned.
(Is "The Law" in this country a farce that no one else should be concerned with, either? Stay tuned.)
  #77  
Old 04-05-2019, 04:30 PM
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Tax returns show income, not debt.
While that is true for the tax returns of individuals, it is not true for tax returns of entities, such as TRUMP INC or whatever his corporate entities are. Entity tax returns, Form 1120, 1065, etc, generally include balance sheets too, which list assets, liabilities and capital.

I think Trump is scared of release because they will show he is not nearly as rich as he claims to be.
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Old 04-05-2019, 05:35 PM
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This looks like it's shaping up to be the litmus test. Can Trump and/or those enabling him simply, blatantly violate the law? Is Trump above the law? Stay tuned.
(Is "The Law" in this country a farce that no one else should be concerned with, either? Stay tuned.)
I think that's exactly what this is.

It's part of an ongoing pattern that dates back to the firing of Comey and continued with McCabe and Sessions. Meanwhile his cabinet picks like Devos and Pruitt engage in naked corruption. He uses Trump Hotel and Mar-a-Lago to put money back into his business. But ignoring a House subpoena would be an escalation because it be the president ignoring separation of powers and federal law.

More troubling is how Trump is how the executive branch and its various agencies are beginning to reflect Trump's personality. Civil service is in very real danger of being replaced by a government of loyalists. He's hiring loyalists in the Dept of Justice, and even worse, he now seems determined to do the same at the Federal Reserve. This is how authoritarians destroy the economies of the countries they try to take control of. Erdogan destroyed Turkey's once thriving economy by hiring lackeys who printed money at the snap of Erdogan's finger. Venezuela started crumbling when Chavez chased out some of the ministers within the national energy sector. Trump really is serious about replacing competent financial minds with cartoonish characters like Stephen Moore and Herman Cain.
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:31 PM
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All of this gives Trump an incentive to try to keep his returns hidden.

And we can't rule out the possibility that the returns will reveal actual tax fraud by Trump. He would know that such a situation would test the infamous Justice Department Guideline (preventing indictment of sitting presidents) like nothing else, so far, has done.
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Tax fraud crossed my mind as well.
Tax fraud is probably the one thing that can be most ruled out. The IRS has been auditing him for the last 20 years or something.
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:48 PM
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Tax fraud is probably the one thing that can be most ruled out. The IRS has been auditing him for the last 20 years or something.
Has anyone not affiliated with Trump confirmed this?
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:54 PM
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Tax fraud is probably the one thing that can be most ruled out. The IRS has been auditing him for the last 20 years or something.
I would have to agree.

But maybe like Mueller, they can't keep up with the crimes and every thread leads to a new investigation. I'm kidding. I think the IRS would have nailed him if there where violations.

But, perhaps they have, he paid the fine/s and moved on. It would be interesting to know.
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:57 PM
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Has anyone not affiliated with Trump confirmed this?
Michael Cohen presumes Trump is not under audit.

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  #83  
Old 04-05-2019, 06:59 PM
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It seems to me that if a criminal prosecution resulted from a tax return, then people would be able to claim the 5th as a defense against filing a tax return. So the only legitimate use of the power to look at returns would be if they were to result in legislation. Or proposed legislation. Much as I would like to see agent orange taken down, I don't like this way of proceeding. Let them subpoena the Mueller report.
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:12 PM
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Has anyone not affiliated with Trump confirmed this?
Well, he has a point. Rich people get audited a lot, and one has to figure with so many auditors looking at his filings, he surely would have been caught by now. But I recall reading an article (forgot the source) that sourced some accounting professionals who believed one reason he didn't want them public is that the media, with the help of people with financial backgrounds, would start scrutinizing his various business ventures and compare it to other records in the public sphere.

Most audits are paper audits that don't even seem like the dreaded "audit" we all hear about. But I've known a person or two who's been subjected to the IRS's version of the third degree. A couple were business colleagues, and a couple of others were personal friends and acquaintances. It ain't fun. You and your accountant meet with their auditor or auditors. They ask questions, they ask for explanations. Better damn well have receipts and not just any receipt will do. They give you a financial rectal exam, but unless they suspect criminal tax fraud, they don't necessary go comparing what you report to other databases. It's not an FBI investigation -- again, not unless it's criminal.

But put information out in front of millions of people, some of whom might be ambitious reporters like Woodward and Bernstein or ambitious young prosecutors, and it's quite possible that state tax authorities might notice something. State attorneys general might notice something else. Financial crimes investigators across different divisions might notice yet something else - or some enterprising investigative reporting team simply puts damning information in bold print, which then in turn puts pressure on criminal investigators within the IRS to take a second look. Fraudulent tax returns have no statute of limitations, by the way.

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  #85  
Old 04-05-2019, 08:05 PM
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I was thinking of this, which is writing off debts that are owed to you.

You can also write off the net loss of a business, which can be construed as a debt. Doesn't get you out of paying the debt, but you can still write it off.

As the King of Debt told us, he loves debt. I'm confident a squiz of his tax returns will disclose why.
You really don't get it, do you?

Writing off debts owed to him doesn't mean HE is in debt.

If you have a net loss, you don't owe any taxes.

What's a squiz, by the way?
  #86  
Old 04-05-2019, 08:24 PM
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I think the IRS would have nailed him if there where violations.

But, perhaps they have, he paid the fine/s and moved on. It would be interesting to know.
Probably, but the IRS in general has been doing fewer and fewer audits of rich people and large corporations, since 2011.

It seems to me that by now Trump would have figured out how to conduct his corrupt practices without technically violating tax laws. His real worry is his image. That's what he's most concerned with, because that's all he is: an empty public image. His whole business is predicated on that.
  #87  
Old 04-05-2019, 10:40 PM
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You really don't get it, do you?

Writing off debts owed to him doesn't mean HE is in debt.

If you have a net loss, you don't owe any taxes.
What makes you think he wouldn't try claiming bad debts that never existed?
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:58 PM
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What's a squiz, by the way?
I think that was one of Brett Kavanaugh's drinking buddies.
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Old 04-06-2019, 10:37 AM
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...I think the IRS would have nailed him if there where violations.

But, perhaps they have, he paid the fine/s and moved on. It would be interesting to know.
"Nailed him"? Thump doesn't get nailed. He does the nailing. So the IRS sent him notices or whatever, and he ignored them. Or put them off. Or blew them off. What else is new?

"Paid the fines"? Don't make me laugh. He doesn't pay fines. He doesn't pay contractors. He doesn't pay anyone. He just ignores stuff and walks away from it and NO ONE COMES AFTER HIM. This is the way he operates.
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Old 04-06-2019, 10:41 AM
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...



What's a squiz, by the way?
It's about halfway between a shufti and a gander.
  #91  
Old 04-06-2019, 10:49 AM
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Do state tax departments have the right to obtain (perhaps through subpoena) the federal tax returns of an entity or person?

Here in Illinois, I have to include a copy of my federal 1040 with my state return, but not the accompanying forms. I assume the same is true of business tax returns. Does Illinois have to accept that whatever my federal return shows is true, or can they demand to see my Schedule C (tax form for sole proprietor) or Schedule B (dividends and interest) or whatever? If they demand them from me, and I refuse to provide them, is their remedy to get a court to demand them and then charge me with contempt if I still refuse, or can they just get the IRS to provide them (perhaps through a subpoena)?

I ask because as we all know, Trump can pardon federal crimes, even possibly his own. But if New York State comes after him for tax fraud...
  #92  
Old 04-06-2019, 11:16 AM
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What's the timeline on complying with this request?
  #93  
Old 04-06-2019, 12:05 PM
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What's the timeline on complying with this request?
The deadline set by the Ways and Means Committee is April 10th.
  #94  
Old 04-06-2019, 01:22 PM
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What's the timeline on complying with this request?
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The deadline set by the Ways and Means Committee is April 10th.
Or the 12th of Never, whichever comes second. Deadline-schmehdline.

Very cynical today.
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  #95  
Old 04-06-2019, 02:41 PM
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Yeah, I saw this post from CalMeacham this morning, just before I left for work. My quicky-check on the guy seems to have been insufficient.
Here is another article you might find interesting How the super-rich defeated the IRS's crack Global High Wealth unit.

The fix is in.

Quote:
In 2009, the IRS created a Global High Wealth Industry Group to audit the super-wealthy, staffing it with skilled lawyers and accountants who could unravel the webs of "trusts, foundations, limited liability companies, complex partnerships and overseas operations" that were used to hide the income of the super-rich from the tax-collector.

A decade later, the group's track record is dismal. IRS privacy rules mean that little is known about how the group's audits were undertaken, defeated, and then gutted, but Propublica's Jesse Eisinger and Paul Kiel have pieced together a vivid picture from the fragmentary evidence, showing why the project was "dead on arrival."

<snip>

It's clear that the group was sabotaged into uselessness. Its most prominent critic, Charles Rettig, is now Donald Trump's IRS commissioner.
Original ProPublica article.
  #96  
Old 04-06-2019, 04:27 PM
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This is my opinion, and not speaking for Richard Neal, but I think Congress ought to ask some questions if a particular individual has been under IRS audit for their entire lives, as Trump makes it out to be. We shouldn't stand for taxpayer harassment, so if his tax returns seem normal, Congress should tell the IRS to stop wasting its time with law-abiding Presidents.
Sarcasm, right? Hilarious, thank you
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  #97  
Old 04-06-2019, 04:47 PM
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Are you sure about that? A company can write-off expenses, not debt in general.

IOW, please provide a cite.
Don't know in the USA, but in Europe a very common deductible expense is interest paid on debt. It is easy to infer the amount of debt from the rate of interest.
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  #98  
Old 04-06-2019, 08:53 PM
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Don't know in the USA, but in Europe a very common deductible expense is interest paid on debt. It is easy to infer the amount of debt from the rate of interest.
Debt is just another form of financing. It doesn't make someone a bad businessman, let alone a bad person.
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Old 04-06-2019, 09:09 PM
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Again, it depends on whom the debt is owed to, and under what terms.
  #100  
Old 04-06-2019, 09:30 PM
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Again, it depends on whom the debt is owed to, and under what terms.
For example, Jared Kushner. Who's paying the bill on that 666 5th Avenue property and what do they get in return?

US top secret intel on dissidents in their own country?
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