View Poll Results: Would you be sacrifice your own life for a guaranteed Trump loss?
Yes 8 7.14%
No 104 92.86%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51  
Old 04-10-2019, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dasmoocher View Post
Question: If you had to spend the rest of your life on a deserted island and could bring only one thing, what would it be?

Voted the best answer: I'd take one for the team and bring Trump.
Lotsa good eatin, there.
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  #52  
Old 04-10-2019, 11:54 AM
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I've said that the left on this board has gone off the deep end before. I was wrong. Now they have. Trump is so bad that some would personally die to keep him out of office.
Think of it as a variation on the old trolley problem. If you're tied to one track with the switch in your hand, and on the other track is a vial of poison gas that, if released, will drift into a nearby city and kill thousands, do you toggle the switch so the trolley kills you, or do you save yourself and let it release the poison gas?

People have died (for instance, thousands in Puerto Rico, many of whom could have been saved by prompt action), and more will die, due to the consequences of Trump's Presidency, even if we take global warming out of the picture. And of course if we include it, the odds approach certainty that we as a species will be too late to slow down global warming. In which case, billions will likely die.
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You guys realize that this is getting into cult-type levels of insanity? No personal insults meant, but damn....you would die to keep him out of office. That is some hard core left wing shit right there.
There was a teacher a couple years ago who literally threw herself in front of a bus to push several of her students out of the way. Man, talk about a cult-type level of insanity! She was willing to die to save others, rather than just watch and let them get crushed by the bus! Man, that was some hard core left wing shit there, sacrificing her life to save others. We should all go piss on her grave or something.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 04-10-2019 at 11:57 AM.
  #53  
Old 04-10-2019, 12:35 PM
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If I was an old, frail man with kids and grandkids to worry about, yeah I'd take the deal. You've still got about a year and a half to enjoy your time left on Earth, and you can die knowing the world is just a slightly better place for your loved ones. And what a hero's death that would be! Your family would build statues in your honor.

But as it stands now, I'm hopefully looking at another 2/3 of my life left to live, so fuck no I am not sacrificing myself to remove a president from office who ultimately isn't that much worse than the presidents who came before him. The US needs to learn from this mistake anyway, like a dumb, untrained dog who keeps shitting on the carpet.

Last edited by pjacks; 04-10-2019 at 12:36 PM.
  #54  
Old 04-10-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
The question isn't as binary as the OP hopes. Here's the real binary choice:

1) If you sacrifice your life Trump is guaranteed to lose.

2) If you choose to live, Trump is guaranteed to win.
The America-hating fuckstick can't be counted on to live up to his end of the deal. How 'bout if I agree to sacrifice my life AFTER he loses the general election?
  #55  
Old 04-10-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
I think there's an interesting question in here but it's muddied by too many unknowns.

Let's say the wizard comes to you and says, "Hey, I've run a simulation where John Kerry won the 2004 election. The results are undeniably good -- 15 years after the election the world population is 257,392 people higher than in the reality where Bush won -- those are lives saved for whatever reason. World poverty has gone down, carbon emissions are down. I can snap my fingers and make that reality the current reality. Unfortunately, in that reality, you die in a car wreck in 2005. Shall I do it?"

Assuming (as per the OP) that you trust the wizard fully and he really does have the power to do what he says, what kind of monster wouldn't tell him to go ahead? And yet, it's too abstract for me to agree to. I don't know why.
I'd tell him to run the simulation again, this time for Gore winning in 2000, see what he comes up with.
  #56  
Old 04-10-2019, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by dasmoocher View Post
Question: If you had to spend the rest of your life on a deserted island and could bring only one thing, what would it be?

Voted the best answer: I'd take one for the team and bring Trump.
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Originally Posted by Ukulele Ike View Post
Lotsa good eatin, there.
You've got a stronger stomach than I have, my friend.
  #57  
Old 04-10-2019, 02:17 PM
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Well, we've had a sudden jump in the self-sacrifice option. 5 out of the most recent 24 votes have been for "I'd die to keep Trump out."
  #58  
Old 04-10-2019, 02:36 PM
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My instinct is to say yes, my life is worth less than what's best for my family and country. Then my only quibble is whether "Trump loses the election" is potentially a monkey's paw that doesn't achieve that much.

Like maybe he loses the election, and imposes martial law instead of yielding office. Or he loses the election but Republicans win the house and there's a terrorist attack that makes Devin Nunes president. Not giving up my life for either of those outcomes.
  #59  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:13 PM
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To be fair, only 1 out of 44 votes so far is "yes." You can get 1/44 to vote for almost anything.
I understand that (although we are up to 7 yes votes now) but just the posing of the question indicates an unhealthy level of hatred for the current occupant of the White House. I didn't like Obama (at least politically, he always seemed like a decent person) and I didn't like Bill Clinton at all, either politically or personally.

In my opinion, their policies were dangerous, and like anyone with as much power as a president, their actions can lead to the deaths of others.

But to hate/dislike a president soooo much that you would personally die to keep him out of office, or to even raise it as a serious question is so far removed from reasoned political discourse as to absolutely stun me (and that takes a lot of doing).

Respectfully, I think some people need to take a step back and realize that Trump is not really turning the United States into a fascist dictatorship. Sure, dislike him. That's fine and that is your freedom as an American. Disagree with his policies. Debate on the board and elsewhere. But when the hatred goes so far that it is a serious question if you would die to keep him out of office, then, IMHO you have seriously misjudged the severity of what he has done and is doing.
  #60  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
My instinct is to say yes, my life is worth less than what's best for my family and country. Then my only quibble is whether "Trump loses the election" is potentially a monkey's paw that doesn't achieve that much.

Like maybe he loses the election, and imposes martial law instead of yielding office. Or he loses the election but Republicans win the house and there's a terrorist attack that makes Devin Nunes president. Not giving up my life for either of those outcomes.
Guys, I'm not trying to be an jackass genie here that screws you over. Not going to give you a mansion, but it's in North Korea.

Trump loses and is gone, some democrat wins, the end. Whatever happens after that, happens, but it won't be influenced by magic.

But no, you don't get to wait til after the election to die. Your death is a precondition. You'll be Moses dying in the desert before your people reach the promised land.

Last edited by Ashtura; 04-10-2019 at 03:15 PM.
  #61  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I understand that (although we are up to 7 yes votes now) but just the posing of the question indicates an unhealthy level of hatred for the current occupant of the White House. I didn't like Obama (at least politically, he always seemed like a decent person) and I didn't like Bill Clinton at all, either politically or personally.



In my opinion, their policies were dangerous, and like anyone with as much power as a president, their actions can lead to the deaths of others.



But to hate/dislike a president soooo much that you would personally die to keep him out of office, or to even raise it as a serious question is so far removed from reasoned political discourse as to absolutely stun me (and that takes a lot of doing).



Respectfully, I think some people need to take a step back and realize that Trump is not really turning the United States into a fascist dictatorship. Sure, dislike him. That's fine and that is your freedom as an American. Disagree with his policies. Debate on the board and elsewhere. But when the hatred goes so far that it is a serious question if you would die to keep him out of office, then, IMHO you have seriously misjudged the severity of what he has done and is doing.
The posing of the question was done specifically to bait people. It's existence indicates nothing.
  #62  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:26 PM
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For what - to help another neo-con who'd do the same stuff, but nicer? No thanks - I'll take the laughs at the expense of a smaller safety net which is barely there anyway, but has not changed anyway.... Donald Trump has such little affect on my life, I wouldn't sacrifice a thing.. I wouldn't even sacrifice myself for Bernie Sanders. I have my own problems, and they are all doing well.

I do wish the US had some left-wingers or liberals. I also wish people would learn basic political definitions, and focus on the important stuff. I don't think I've ever read the word "labor" in the political forums I visit.
  #63  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
Trump loses and is gone, some democrat wins, the end. Whatever happens after that, happens, but it won't be influenced by magic.
If you aren't going to magically give me the outcome I want, then I'm not going to die for it. I want Trump to lose the election - ideally, never even get to the election - but it might not be enough.
  #64  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Chingon View Post
The posing of the question was done specifically to bait people. It's existence indicates nothing.
No, it wasn't.

It was a response to the other poll, where a significant amount of people seemed to be willing to allow millions of people to be out of work if it meant Trump loses.

It's not insane to allow other people to suffer to get what you want. It might not be good, but it's not insane. At the same time, being willing to die for something is considered the ultimate sacrifice.

Last edited by Ashtura; 04-10-2019 at 03:30 PM.
  #65  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:46 PM
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No, it wasn't.

It was a response to the other poll, where a significant amount of people seemed to be willing to allow millions of people to be out of work if it meant Trump loses.

It's not insane to allow other people to suffer to get what you want. It might not be good, but it's not insane. At the same time, being willing to die for something is considered the ultimate sacrifice.
You made this poll to make some point/observation you feel is indicative of the side you politically disagree with. UltraVires is then glomming onto this as if you are indicative of some sort of fanatic liberal willing to kill themselves (which I suspect was part of your goal in the first place). It's existence doesn't indicate anything beyond your and his imagination.
  #66  
Old 04-10-2019, 03:58 PM
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My life for a guaranteed Trump loss? No.

My life for a Trump public flogging/tarring and feathering/witch dunking/strung up from a street lamp by his heels while water balloons full of rank piss get tossed at him (although he might actually like that)/dragged behind a horse through a cactus patch/rolled down a hill in a barrel of nails/toss the remains in prison for all eternity/remove his name from history by chiseling and destroying all references to him like the ancient Egyptians used to do.............ummm, maybe.

Will my cat Tippy be taken care of after my death?

Last edited by Two Many Cats; 04-10-2019 at 03:59 PM.
  #67  
Old 04-10-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chingon View Post
You made this poll to make some point/observation you feel is indicative of the side you politically disagree with. UltraVires is then glomming onto this as if you are indicative of some sort of fanatic liberal willing to kill themselves (which I suspect was part of your goal in the first place). It's existence doesn't indicate anything beyond your and his imagination.
Nope, and I'd appreciate it if you stopped questioning my motives and playing mind reader. I'm genuinely curious how many people would do this. For the record, I am a registered independent atheist who leans libertarian on social issues. I also think Trump is a garbage human being and bad president (though, personally, not bad enough to die for).

I have nothing to do whatsoever with Ultravires, or the responses to the poll. You're welcome to think their votes are irrelevant and don't amount to anything though.
  #68  
Old 04-10-2019, 08:44 PM
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No, hell no.

Sixty-some odd million people conspired to put that asshole in office. Let some of them make the sacrifice.
  #69  
Old 04-10-2019, 08:55 PM
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Some years back, I got called all sorts of names in this thread for placing the life of my child above the lives of others. Now, here in the present thread there are no great numbers of Dopers willing to sacrifice their own lives (let alone take the throat slicing option I offered upthread) to save all the thousands of people whose lives will be snuffed out by Trump. This is a place of great anger but not of great courage, it would seem.

Last edited by Scumpup; 04-10-2019 at 08:55 PM.
  #70  
Old 04-10-2019, 09:55 PM
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There was a scene in Key Largo where Bogart says that one less Johnny Rocco in the world isn't worth dying for. That's how I feel about trump. A world where there's no place for trumps might be another story.
  #71  
Old 04-10-2019, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
The stakes have never been that high in a presidential election.
Unless you're brown, especially a brown child. Or a woman. Or someone who actually needs health care. Or poor. Or a legal immigrant afraid to return to your own country for a visit because you might not be let back in. Or someone who wants your vote to actually count as much as other people's. Or trans, and don't want to be murdered. Or someone who wants your news to tell the truth. Or one of the hundreds of now-deceased Syrians who should have been safely here under the refugee program. Or one of the roughtly 50 Palestinians and Jews who have been killed so far because the Orange Asshole decided he HAD to move an embassy. Or any of Trump's myriad other victims, for which the stakes may literally be life and death.

For an awful lot of people -- and more all the time -- the stakes are really very, very high.
  #72  
Old 04-11-2019, 03:19 PM
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A strong magical thinking I detect in you.
But assuming magic works: could I restate the question and ask not only for Trump to lose the election, but also that he and his whole entourage (Ivanka, Miller, Jared, Bannon, Jr., Eric, DeVos, etc. etc. etc...) end up in ignominy and get non pardonable life sentences? I would sacrifice my cat for that.
But if a genie came and offered me a wish, only one, no cheating, my wish would be a different one.
  #73  
Old 04-11-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Who wins? Not just that Trump loses.

I have read "The Monkey's Paw". I don't trust wizards. How do I know the election won't result in somebody worse?

And yes, there can be someone worse. What if he loses to Roy Moore?

Regards,
Shodan
Or Ted Cruz?
  #74  
Old 04-11-2019, 07:50 PM
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I can't believe 8 people voted "Yes" If the people who voted yes actually thought that, there's an easy way to accomplish it.
  #75  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:11 PM
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I can't believe 8 people voted "Yes" If the people who voted yes actually thought that, there's an easy way to accomplish it.
It's right there in the title of the thread we're talking about a "Trump loss", so I have no clue what you're on about.
  #76  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:29 PM
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There was a scene in Key Largo where Bogart says that one less Johnny Rocco in the world isn't worth dying for.
I read this as, "there was a scene in Mar-a-Lago where Bogart says....."
  #77  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:37 PM
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It's right there in the title of the thread we're talking about a "Trump loss", so I have no clue what you're on about.
I don't want to run afoul of the board rules. But if someone is willing to give their life to ensure a candidate doesn't get elected, there's an easy way to do it.
  #78  
Old 04-11-2019, 08:49 PM
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I don't want to run afoul of the board rules. But if someone is willing to give their life to ensure a candidate doesn't get elected, there's an easy way to do it.
I expressed that I'd sacrifice myself (via magical wizard) to guarantee Trump losing an election. You are wording it differently, in terms of a guarantee of not being elected.

I feel you are not characterizing my position properly. The question strongly implies the assumption Trump will head the 2020 GOP ticket into November of that year. There is a possibility Trump may not get elected and also not lose the election. I did not account for that in the interpretation I've explained and would not sacrifice myself in order for someone like Pence to be the next president.
  #79  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:05 PM
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I expressed that I'd sacrifice myself (via magical wizard) to guarantee Trump losing an election. You are wording it differently, in terms of a guarantee of not being elected.

I feel you are not characterizing my position properly. The question strongly implies the assumption Trump will head the 2020 GOP ticket into November of that year. There is a possibility Trump may not get elected and also not lose the election. I did not account for that in the interpretation I've explained and would not sacrifice myself in order for someone like Pence to be the next president.
Right. I think what the OP means is, "Would you be willing to die if it meant a guaranteed Democratic victory in 2020?"

By framing it as a Trump loss, the OP opened the loopholes - but then again, Dopers always look for loopholes....
  #80  
Old 04-12-2019, 12:51 AM
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Showing that you are still butsore that your tin good Hillary did not get elected
  #81  
Old 04-12-2019, 12:56 AM
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Showing that you are still butsore that your tin good Hillary did not get elected
You're not going to last long in this message board...
  #82  
Old 04-12-2019, 03:40 PM
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Showing that you are still butsore that your tin good Hillary did not get elected
He's just upset that Hillary is monopolizing tin that would be better put to use lining red hats.
  #83  
Old 04-12-2019, 04:40 PM
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no but I would give up sweets for the rest of my life..
  #84  
Old 04-13-2019, 12:12 PM
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So, how many people who voted "yes" in this poll were truly serious?

It reminds me of the sports poll where 30% (or something) of Boston Red Sox fans said they would rather die than root for the Yankees. Cheap and easy to say, but if push actually came to shove, I think the actual figure of Sox fans who'd die would have been under 0.001%.
  #85  
Old 04-13-2019, 12:24 PM
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Showing that you are still butsore that your tin good Hillary did not get elected
It's amazing how the right thinks the anger about Trump is simply because we lost an election we thought we were going to win and we're pissed that Hillary didn't get her turn.

On a scale of 1 to 10, Hillary not winning is about a 6. I wish she would have won and I think she would have been a good enough President. So if Jeb or Rubio (or god help us, Cruz) would have won, that would be bad in the normal range. Trump winning, however, is off the charts bad. It is so bad, that we have completely forgotten Hillary and don't care a whit about her not winning. To the extent we think about her at all, it's to lament that she didn't run a better campaign.

To summarize, I no longer give a fuck that Hillary lost. I give many fucks that Trump won.
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:47 PM
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It's amazing how the right thinks the anger about Trump is simply because we lost an election we thought we were going to win and we're pissed that Hillary didn't get her turn.

On a scale of 1 to 10, Hillary not winning is about a 6. I wish she would have won and I think she would have been a good enough President. So if Jeb or Rubio (or god help us, Cruz) would have won, that would be bad in the normal range. Trump winning, however, is off the charts bad. It is so bad, that we have completely forgotten Hillary and don't care a whit about her not winning. To the extent we think about her at all, it's to lament that she didn't run a better campaign.

To summarize, I no longer give a fuck that Hillary lost. I give many fucks that Trump won.
It would be more credible if your side hadn't said so many similar things about GWB, and if I weren't so confident they'll say similar things about the next Republican president too.
  #87  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:28 PM
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It would be more credible if your side hadn't said so many similar things about GWB, and if I weren't so confident they'll say similar things about the next Republican president too.
I certainly had issues with the presidency of George W. Bush. In retrospect, some of the rhetoric about him was over the top. I am hopeful now that we have seen a true obscenity reach the White House, we will be more careful about how we voice our disagreements with future Republicans. Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I don't think our nation ever sink this low again in electing a President.
  #88  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:33 PM
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I certainly had issues with the presidency of George W. Bush. In retrospect, some of the rhetoric about him was over the top. I am hopeful now that we have seen a true obscenity reach the White House, we will be more careful about how we voice our disagreements with future Republicans. Perhaps I'm an optimist, but I don't think our nation ever sink this low again in electing a President.
I'm an optimist, but I'm still shocked how many folks, who I thought before were probably decent and well-meaning fellow Americans, cheering along hatred and even sexual assault. In addition to this board, I've seen it from a few co-workers in my office -- retired veterans who do great work as civilians for the Navy. And some of them have literally cheered groping and bigotry.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-13-2019 at 01:33 PM.
  #89  
Old 04-13-2019, 01:45 PM
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So, how many people who voted "yes" in this poll were truly serious?

It reminds me of the sports poll where 30% (or something) of Boston Red Sox fans said they would rather die than root for the Yankees. Cheap and easy to say, but if push actually came to shove, I think the actual figure of Sox fans who'd die would have been under 0.001%.
Wait. Are you suggesting there's a parallel between sports fan psychology and the mindset of the politically partisan members of the public?
  #90  
Old 04-19-2019, 12:29 PM
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OP: No, generally speaking I wouldn't give my life to guaranty Trump's defeat. He might lose anyway. Besides, that's cheating at democracy. If he's got such a good chance at winning, then we deserve it if he does.

BUT I might allow myself to come to some kind of harm at Trump's hands if doing so would result in the political shitstorm that takes him down.
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  #91  
Old 04-19-2019, 08:14 PM
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Giving up my own life is not the same thing as hoping for a recession. Recessions are survivable. No one dies from a recession by itself.

No, I would not give up my own life to get Trump out of office. While I can consider the idea of killing oneself to eliminate your own suffering, in all other cases it is morally the same as committing murder. I won't become a monster to stop a monster.

Though, as Inigo Montoya said, this is not the same as refusing to accept any natural consequences of harm to myself as a result of what is needed to get rid of Trump. I try not to be selfish, which means caring about the wellbeing of others more.

And, yes, I would do much more to stop Trump than any former Republican president. I may have disagrees with those guys, but they were never enemies of America. They may not all of have been paragons of virtue, and they may have had some selfish desires mixed in, but all were doing what they thought was best for the country. Trump is not.

He is just nakedly evil, only out for himself. But for me to give up my life to stop him, I would have to be stopping him from killing others, and wind up dead not by my own actions or choice, but through his.
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