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  #1  
Old 04-23-2019, 07:44 AM
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Warren Student Loan Forgiveness Plan


As part of her presidential bid, Elizabeth Warren is pushing for a student loan forgiveness program along with Bernie's free college plan.

Naturally conservatives are going to hate this idea, partly because it's a massive government expense and partly because it's profoundly unfair. I'm inclined to agree with both of those arguments. In regards to the cost, I think the economics 101 answer to rising college cost is to build more state colleges (increase supply) rather putting the government on the hook to pay outrageous tuitions. And in regards to the fairness, someone who took a huge risk taking out $80k in student loans and someone who took a lesser paying career path to avoid that risk would be in the same financial position after the former's loans are wiped out, except now that person has a higher earning potential. Sure it would boost the economy, but there are other places we could pump a trillion dollars other than upper middle class college grads who may or may not have made good decisions in the first place.

I think worrying about fairness is generally a waste of time, but considering the price tag, I'm having a hard time seeing how this is a good idea.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:56 AM
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I'm all for it, providing she cuts me a check for $50K for paying my student loans. That's reparations I can get behind.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:10 AM
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In regards to the cost, I think the economics 101 answer to rising college cost is to build more state colleges (increase supply) rather putting the government on the hook to pay outrageous tuitions.
Apparently Ms. Warren never took Econ 101, because
Quote:
Warren calls for eliminating tuition at all public two- and four-year colleges, an idea introduced by Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., in the 2016 presidential race.
So the government would be on the hook for all such tuitions.

But not to worry - just like the tax cut, it would be
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at least partially offset by new economic growth.
Regards,
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:19 AM
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I like the plan but I think she's only doing this because she's very low in the polls
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:27 AM
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It seems as though any time that more money is made available for college through loans, grants, etc. , colleges increase their rates to absorb the increase.
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Old 04-23-2019, 08:49 AM
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Horrible idea for everyone who worked multiple jobs, went to state school, co-oped, saved, etc. Complete government hand out bullshit.

There should be more education about the trades as another career path.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:57 AM
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It seems as though any time that more money is made available for college through loans, grants, etc. , colleges increase their rates to absorb the increase.
Exactly this. When the Federal Student Loan Program opened the door for more students, colleges saw all that government money out there just waiting for them, and tuitions, fees, textbooks, etc. all went skyrocketing upwards.

There's nothing more "True Blue U.S. of A." than grasping at profits.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:59 AM
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This is going to piss off a lot of graduates who just finished paying off their loans, as well as many students who scrimped their way, saved or worked their way to get through college without loans.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:04 AM
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What next? Paying off everyone's car notes? Mortgages? Credit card debt? Sheer, unadulterated idiocy. How anyone supports a complete economic moron like this is beyond me.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:10 AM
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What next? Paying off everyone's car notes? Mortgages? Credit card debt? Sheer, unadulterated idiocy. How anyone supports a complete economic moron like this is beyond me.
Probably because they can see other countries providing things like access to higher education and health care and think, "Why can't the 'Greatest Country on Earth!!!' do this too?"
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:35 AM
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Probably because they can see other countries providing things like access to higher education and health care and think, "Why can't the 'Greatest Country on Earth!!!' do this too?"
Affordable education is great, but the way that Warren's proposal is structured will generate resentment. It basically says that if you are someone who graduated with a large student debt and worked, scrimped, and saved many years to pay it off, then you........basically worked that hard for nothing, because if you had just held out and refused to pay, you could have had it forgiven for free down the road when the Warren presidency arrived.


Edit: To be fair, it's impossible for everyone to get their way, and if something has to be done, it has to be done at a certain point and time (and Warren couldn't possibly reimburse students who already paid off their loans, unless we are talking some who-knows-how-many-trillions plan.)

Last edited by Velocity; 04-23-2019 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:40 AM
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And those that are angry and opposed are sending the message that they don't want our kids to have it any better than we did. If we got screwed by ridiculous student loans, then by god the grandkids should get screwed too!!!!

This is how all of your resentful replies to this idea sound to me.

This is also why we can never actually improve things in this country because too many people would be bitter that *they* didn't get to take advantage.

Reminds me of this:

“The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.” —Nelson Henderson.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:49 AM
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I do want my children (and grandchildren) to have it better than me. That's why I don't want them burdened with these massively expensive pieces of economic idiocy.

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Old 04-23-2019, 10:51 AM
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I do want my children (and grandchildren) to have it better than me. That's why I don't want them burdened with these massively expensive pieces of economic idiocy.

Regards,
Shodan
So you actually want your kids and grandkids burdened with ever increasing student loan debt? You do know this problem is getting worse over time right? You do realize you are kicking the can down the road and you are screwing over our subsequent generations simply out of spite right? I'm not arguing that this exact plan is perfect or that we should definitely do this, but the attitude of "well I got screwed, so dammit my kids and grandkids had better get screwed just as much!!!" seems abhorrent to me.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:56 AM
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And those that are angry and opposed are sending the message that they don't want our kids to have it any better than we did. If we got screwed by ridiculous student loans, then by god the grandkids should get screwed too!!!!

This is how all of your resentful replies to this idea sound to me.

This is also why we can never actually improve things in this country because too many people would be bitter that *they* didn't get to take advantage.

Reminds me of this:

“The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.” —Nelson Henderson.
I'm good with changing the student loan system, and if we change it being able to pass those changes on to those who have current loans, but that's a bit different than completely loan forgiveness. I'm not seeing why people SHOULD have their loans forgiven, to be honest. Are they saying they didn't get value for their money? Why did they stay in the programs then? If they did get value for the money, then why should they get loan forgiveness?

I do think there are some systemic issues with the student loan system as it is, and I think a focus on fixing those issues would be a good thing. This doesn't seem to be that sort of 'plan' though.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:58 AM
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Again, I'm not arguing for or advocating for this particular plan, just saying that I was kind of disgusted by some of the responses to it.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:01 AM
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The best thing we could do for future college students is to cease giving gobs of debt to so many people who barely understand it.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:01 AM
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Seems to be people are judging on a moral instead of an economic basis. Judging the morality of economic proposals is a mug's game.

Instead of loan forgiveness, what if it was presented as a middle class tax credit for those who still had student loans? Does that make any difference to people? And would you expect that credit to have a positive economic effect, despite the cost to the federal coffers?

Still 'unfair', whatever that means, to people who have already paid theirs off, but in the same way I just missed out on a tax credit for replacing my A/C with a more energy efficient model.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:03 AM
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The best thing we could do for future college students is to cease giving gobs of debt to so many people who barely understand it.
Oh right, you guys think college and education are bad things.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:05 AM
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Seems to be people are judging on a moral instead of an economic basis. Judging the morality of economic proposals is a mug's game.

Instead of loan forgiveness, what if it was presented as a middle class tax credit for those who still had student loans? Does that make any difference to people? And would you expect that credit to have a positive economic effect, despite the cost to the federal coffers?

Still 'unfair', whatever that means, to people who have already paid theirs off, but in the same way I just missed out on a tax credit for replacing my A/C with a more energy efficient model.
The Civil Rights act was unfair to former slaves who were already dead, but it still was a good idea to try to improve things in the country.

Face it. Anything we do to help this student loan situation is going to necessarily mean that many people are too old to take advantage of it. We can't have generational resentment prevent us from making positive steps as a society.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:05 AM
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And those that are angry and opposed are sending the message that they don't want our kids to have it any better than we did. If we got screwed by ridiculous student loans, then by god the grandkids should get screwed too!!!!

This is how all of your resentful replies to this idea sound to me.

This is also why we can never actually improve things in this country because too many people would be bitter that *they* didn't get to take advantage.

Reminds me of this:

“The true meaning of life is to plant trees, under whose shade you do not expect to sit.” —Nelson Henderson.
Agree, although to take into consideration the false dilemma of trying to make this into a moral hazard, I would compromise a little and make the forgiveness to be mostly means tested. And also include the ones that were scammed by Trump like universities and colleges.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:07 AM
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Oh right, you guys think college and education are bad things.
I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever "studies" (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:08 AM
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Oh right, you guys think college and education are bad things.
We need to build more colleges. Full stop. I think this plan Warren is proposing is bad for reasons already stated, but I think you're making a classic error here in accusing people of not wanting to fix the underlying issues just because we don't like this particular plan.

My sorta alma mater, Ohio State, hasn't drastically increased its in-state undergraduate enrollment in the 20 years since I left there. Instead, they've jacked up the prices to keep people out. If college is good, and I think it is, then Ohio should focus on building a second university to rival Ohio State so it can accept a lot more students at lower prices. But nobody is proposing this. Instead we're trying to figure out ways to gift existing colleges more taxpayer dollars and not demanding that they accept more students.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:08 AM
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I'm good with changing the student loan system, and if we change it being able to pass those changes on to those who have current loans, but that's a bit different than completely loan forgiveness. I'm not seeing why people SHOULD have their loans forgiven, to be honest. Are they saying they didn't get value for their money? Why did they stay in the programs then? If they did get value for the money, then why should they get loan forgiveness?

I do think there are some systemic issues with the student loan system as it is, and I think a focus on fixing those issues would be a good thing. This doesn't seem to be that sort of 'plan' though.
Well, there are economists and business groups that do see a benefit on loan forgiveness.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ca...omy-2018-02-07
Quote:
Wiping away the $1.4 trillion in outstanding loan debt for the 44 million Americans who carry it could boost GDP by between $86 billion and $108 billion per year, on average for the 10 years following the debt cancellation, according to a report published by the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. Getting rid of the debt would also lower the average unemployment rate by 0.22 to 0.36 percentage points over 10 years and could add between 1.2 million and 1.5 million jobs per year, it found.

“That is a dollar for dollar bump up in their net worth,” said Stephanie Kelton, a professor of economics and public policy at Stony Brook University and one of the authors of the report. In addition to becoming wealthier, these borrowers would have more disposable income to spend on houses, cars, vacations and other goods, which could fuel job growth.
That the economical argument, as for the moral one:

Quote:
But there’s also a moral argument to be made in favor of wiping away borrowers’ student debt, Kelton said. Decades ago, public college was nearly or — in some cases — totally free and as momentum builds for other free college programs, it’s possible we could ultimately return to a similar system, she said. Those stuck with the debt now are there because of “an accident of history,” she argues.

“There’s been a terrible policy error made in terms of the failure to continue to treat education as a public good,” she said.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:09 AM
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Seems to be people are judging on a moral instead of an economic basis. Judging the morality of economic proposals is a mug's game.

Instead of loan forgiveness, what if it was presented as a middle class tax credit for those who still had student loans? Does that make any difference to people? And would you expect that credit to have a positive economic effect, despite the cost to the federal coffers?

Still 'unfair', whatever that means, to people who have already paid theirs off, but in the same way I just missed out on a tax credit for replacing my A/C with a more energy efficient model.
I'm not sure how you'd do this without drastically changing the effect vs what Warren is proposing. Most people fresh out of college hardly pay any federal income tax anyway. It would take years or decades for them to use enough tax credits to pay off $100k in loans.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:13 AM
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I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever "studies" (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing.
I think an educated populace is a very good thing and very important to the health of our society.

I know the GOP does not agree with this. "I love the poorly educated!" and all that.

It's ok to just own that your party does not want American citizens to be educated.

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans...ke-news-634474
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:15 AM
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I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever "studies" (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing.
Yes, but at the same time most of the ones in power are not bothering on overseeing those institutions that are offering those silly-ass degrees.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/26/u...-colleges.html
Quote:
WASHINGTON — Education Secretary Betsy DeVos plans to eliminate regulations that forced for-profit colleges to prove that they provide gainful employment to the students they enroll, in what would be the most drastic in a series of moves that she has made to free the for-profit sector from safeguards put in effect during the Obama era.

The so-called gainful employment regulations put into force by the Obama administration cut off federally guaranteed student loans to colleges if their graduates did not earn enough money to pay them off. That sent many for-profit colleges and universities into an economic tailspin because so many of their alumni were failing to find decent jobs.

The Obama regulations — years in the making and the subject of a bitter fight that pulled in heavy hitters from both parties who backed the for-profit schools — also required such schools to advertise whether or not they met federal standards for job placement in promotional materials and to prospective students.

Now, a draft regulation, obtained by The New York Times, indicates that the Education Department plans to scuttle the regulations altogether, not simply modify them, as Ms. DeVos did Wednesday with new regulations that scaled back an Obama-era debt relief plan for student borrowers who felt duped by the unrealistic appeals of for-profit colleges.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever "studies" (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing.
Yeah, all those kids with their high debt and their crazy degrees like *check notes* education and law.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.dc4908575077

"Area, ethnic, cultural, gender, and group studies" majors make up about 0.4% of college students:
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/...sp?current=yes

Last edited by enalzi; 04-23-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:19 AM
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Wow. Owned by your own Secretary of Education. HD do you even know what the administration you support is doing? Because they don't seem to share your concerns regarding "silly-ass degrees". Obama on the other hand tried to do something to help with that problem.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:19 AM
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Airbeck, you are straw-manning in this thread. Saying that the GOP doesn't like education because how shoddily the U.S. education model works is akin to war-hawks who say that Democrats who oppose $700 billion defense budgets "do not support our men and women in uniform."

Last edited by Velocity; 04-23-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:20 AM
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I think kids racking up tens of thousands of dollars in debt for some silly-ass degree in whatever "studies" (with the accompanying dismal employment prospects) is the flavor of the week is a bad thing.
What about those of us who got "good" degrees but still ended up with lots and lots of debt?

I got a degree in Chemical Engineering in 2011. I graduated with a significant amount of debt. (I got kind of screwed when I tried to get in state tuition in Indiana and was denied because I wasn't legally emancipated from my parents who lived in Kansas at the time. Funnily enough, a few years ago, they moved back to Indiana.) I worked all through college and did my best to save but tuition for us out-of-state students rose every year. On top of that, my parents declared bankruptcy and weren't able to cosign on my loans. My senior year, I ended up with some truly terrible private loans with double digit interest rates. Trust me, I took advantage of every opportunity to avoid borrowing more money. My hands were tied at that point.

So, 8 years out of school, I still owe north of $80k on my loans, and was only just able to refinance my private student loans to a much more reasonable interest rate. I got stuck in a spiral where I couldn't refinance my student loans because the banks felt that I couldn't afford my student loans and, meanwhile, the principles weren't going down because of the exorbitant interest rates that would go up every quarter.

I admit that I signed up for them. I did sign my name on the dotted line. But, please, don't tell me that this system isn't exploitative.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:20 AM
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She’s just pandering. It’s a way to buy votes. She can’t be so dumb that she actually believes it’s a good idea.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:22 AM
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Airbeck, you are straw-manning in this thread. Saying that the GOP doesn't like education because how shoddily the U.S. education model works is akin to war-hawks who say that Democrats who oppose $700 billion defense budgets "do not support our men and women in uniform."
No that's not true at all. Look at the link I posted. Republicans think that college is a bad thing for America. They said it not me. It's the whole "colleges are all about liberal indoctrination" thing.

So tell me then, what policies are the GOP fighting for that would actually improve education in the US? And I mean all education, not just private/charter schools. We need to judge our outcomes by all students.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:22 AM
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And those that are angry and opposed are sending the message that they don't want our kids to have it any better than we did. If we got screwed by ridiculous student loans, then by god the grandkids should get screwed too!!!!
Not so much "kids" but "peers." Someone who worked hard from, say, 2015 through 2020 to pay off loans would have endured considerable financial tightness, whereas someone who graduated in 2020 just entering the Warren presidency would not have had to repay any of their loan. That is not a parent-to-kid-or-grandkid age gap, that is an age gap of mere years. It would be a 28-year old having resentment against a 22-year old, who in many ways in a comparative peer. The resentment would be greater because of how close the age gap is.

Last edited by Velocity; 04-23-2019 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:23 AM
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She’s just pandering. It’s a way to buy votes. She can’t be so dumb that she actually believes it’s a good idea.
Please check Post #24
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:25 AM
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She’s just pandering. It’s a way to buy votes. She can’t be so dumb that she actually believes it’s a good idea.
She and Bernie are trying hard to separate themselves from the rest of the contender field. With good reason, too; at their respective ages (they're both over 70,) it is likely their last realistic shot at the presidency.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:26 AM
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Well, there are economists and business groups that do see a benefit on loan forgiveness.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ca...omy-2018-02-07
So a program that costs $125 billion a year, and boosts GDP by $86-108 billion, is a boon for the economy? Not to mention -
Quote:
The paper also assumes the government would take responsibility for borrowers’ private student loans in some way. So student debt cancellation would increase the deficit, resulting in an increase in the deficit-to-GDP ratio of 0.65 to 0.75 points per year, the study finds.
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Originally Posted by Airbeck
Oh right, you guys think college and education are bad things.
What a preposterous piece of nonsense.

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Old 04-23-2019, 11:28 AM
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Yes, but at the same time most of the ones in power are not bothering on overseeing those institutions that are offering those silly-ass degrees.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/26/u...-colleges.html
Just curious, where do you think you can obtain a degree in LGBT Studies?

A) The University of Phoenix, one of those evil for-profit colleges (hint) or

B) UC Berkeley, one of those noble and delightsome non-profit public colleges that are seeking to prepare youth to launch their life of success with low tuition and a practical degree that will help them find employment (hint)

Bonus question:

How would you feel about applying the "cut off federally guaranteed student loans to colleges if their graduates did not earn enough money to pay them off" to public colleges and universities? Or is what's good for the goose not good for the gander in this case?
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Not so much "kids" but "peers." Someone who worked hard from, say, 2015 through 2020 to pay off loans would have endured considerable financial tightness, whereas someone who graduated in 2020 just entering the Warren presidency would not have had to repay any of their loan. That is not a parent-to-kid-or-grandkid age gap, that is an age gap of mere years. It would be a 28-year old having resentment against a 22-year old, who in many ways in a comparative peer. The resentment would be greater because of how close the age gap is.
Well stop being so spiteful and self centered and think about how your kids and grandkids would benefit, rather than looking at your neighbor in an envious rage. It's bad that so many people have gotten screwed in the student loan system. It would be worse to refuse to fix that because you demand that everyone after you must suffer exactly as you have!!!!

We are supposed to be forming a more perfect union, not trying to ensure that any suffering we've endured must continue in perpetuity so everyone after us will suffer equally.
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  #40  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:30 AM
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Please check Post #24
Of course you could just print money and give everyone a check. No need to tie it into poor personal financial decisions. Why distort the market further and reward time and effort wasted on worthless degrees?

I paid off my student loan because I only borrowed what I needed and deliberately chose a degree that had demand and earning potential. If octopus can get a decent paying engineering degree what’s stopping others?
  #41  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:30 AM
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So a program that costs $125 billion a year, and boosts GDP by $86-108 billion, is a boon for the economy? Not to mention -
What a preposterous piece of nonsense.

Regards,
Shodan
Read the polls. Your voters are saying it, not me:

https://www.newsweek.com/republicans...ke-news-634474
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  #42  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:32 AM
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Not so much "kids" but "peers." Someone who worked hard from, say, 2015 through 2020 to pay off loans would have endured considerable financial tightness, whereas someone who graduated in 2020 just entering the Warren presidency would not have had to repay any of their loan. That is not a parent-to-kid-or-grandkid age gap, that is an age gap of mere years. It would be a 28-year old having resentment against a 22-year old, who in many ways in a comparative peer. The resentment would be greater because of how close the age gap is.
I concluded that it will be a resentment based on a false dilemma. There is at least one additional option, that many will realize that having such a burden is more conductive to less people starting new industries or jobs, not only among those 28 years olds, but for the 22 year olds too.
  #43  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:34 AM
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How would you feel about applying the "cut off federally guaranteed student loans to colleges if their graduates did not earn enough money to pay them off" to public colleges and universities? Or is what's good for the goose not good for the gander in this case?
Well your current GOP Secretary of Education wants neither type of institution to face such regulations. So you are out of step with ... well everyone. The Trump administration disagrees with you. Liberals disagree with you. Who exactly is it that is pushing this policy you want? Anyone?
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:34 AM
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Well, there are economists and business groups that do see a benefit on loan forgiveness.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ca...omy-2018-02-07


That the economical argument, as for the moral one:
Well, I skimmed the paper in your linked article. Basically, the idea seems to be that the Government would take on the $1.4 trillion dollars by repaying the private institutes and that this would increase GDP, supposedly, between approx. $90 billion to $110 billion a year and lower unemployment by .22-.36% annually. There are a lot of assumptions I'm, frankly, not in a position to really talk about implicit in much of the paper. It would push our debt to close to $20 trillion by taking this on, which would increase our payments on the interest to over $400 billion a year or more, and I'm not seeing if they took that into account. They project a higher GDP, but don't really go into the details of whether that means increased tax revenue or what all that entails.

I suppose it's the banks or companies making student loans who would lose out and they would be the ones fighting this sort of thing the hardest, but I have to think that there are other catches too, or the projections are overly optimistic. Like I said, I have no issue changing the student loan process, it's definitely got issues, but I don't know if the US taking on $1.4 trillion in debt (to start...I presume that, after this we'll not want to allow kids to start racking up new debt, so we would probably need to fix that too going forward) would really have all the sunny upsides and no downsides as asserted in that paper. I haven't looked into debunking articles on it or anything, but it seems too good to be true and based on assumptions I'm unsure really hold up. And, frankly, I only skimmed it.
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  #45  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:34 AM
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Well stop being so spiteful and self centered and think about how your kids and grandkids would benefit, rather than looking at your neighbor in an envious rage. It's bad that so many people have gotten screwed in the student loan system. It would be worse to refuse to fix that because you demand that everyone after you must suffer exactly as you have!!!!

We are supposed to be forming a more perfect union, not trying to ensure that any suffering we've endured must continue in perpetuity so everyone after us will suffer equally.
Society has screwed over lots of people in lots of ways. With limited resources, why should we throw all of this money at student loans and not other things? Why not, say, use $125B a year to buy houses for people living in abject poverty? This would be a boon for the economy, and it would help people who have been screwed by society.
  #46  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
Of course you could just print money and give everyone a check.
Straw man.

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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
No need to tie it into poor personal financial decisions. Why distort the market further and reward time and effort wasted on worthless degrees?
Another straw man, because I did clearly said that there should be some limits.

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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
I paid off my student loan because I only borrowed what I needed and deliberately chose a degree that had demand and earning potential. If octopus can get a decent paying engineering degree what’s stopping others?
The fact that there are industries that have potential that fizzle by the time people graduate, and also Trump like universities and colleges.

People should have the freedom to change course when they find how wrong they were.
  #47  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:41 AM
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Society has screwed over lots of people in lots of ways. With limited resources, why should we throw all of this money at student loans and not other things? Why not, say, use $125B a year to buy houses for people living in abject poverty? This would be a boon for the economy, and it would help people who have been screwed by society.
I've already said I'm not arguing for this plan, I'm just trying to challenge some of the attitudes and reactions I'm seeing to it that seem far too self centered and borne out of spite.

Explaining why it wouldn't work is a good argument against it.

The fact that somebody else somewhere may benefit, and I can't because I already went to college isn't a good argument. It's basically saying we can't improve anything for anyone in this country if not 100% of people will see direct benefits from the improvement.
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  #48  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:41 AM
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This idea has good roots, but as usual is overly simplistic.

Rather than just dumping 90% of student debt, let's start with allowing it to be discharged in Chapter 7 bankruptcy, as it was, once upon a time. Or perhaps a special court where the student shows insolvency without actually going thru formal bankruptcy.

Then, let's crack down on crappy high pressure diploma mills, where a lot of the bad debt originates.

Free College? Ok, let's us start by making sure that two year colleges across the USA are nearly free, with small fees. In many areas they already are. So a easy, relatively inexpensive change.

Then a Federal scholarship program for those who graduated from a two year college*, but will have issues on paying for the next two years. Before we start writing checks and giving away freebies to someone who may just drop out after their freshman year, lets us see they are committed to a higher education by finishing two years at a community or other 2 year college first.

* based on financial need.
  #49  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:45 AM
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What about those of us who got "good" degrees but still ended up with lots and lots of debt? ...
If it's truly a good degree with good job prospects, particularly in the current market, I'd hope most of them would be able to find financially-rewarding employment and pay back their loans. Admittedly, starting out tens of thousands of dollars in the hole is not ideal, which is why I encourage the young adults I know to do their best to avoid / minimize student loans, and seek educational opportunities that will enhance their employment prospects.


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... I admit that I signed up for them. I did sign my name on the dotted line. But, please, don't tell me that this system isn't exploitative.
I think it's terribly exploitative. The very first thing I said in this thread was:

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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
The best thing we could do for future college students is to cease giving gobs of debt to so many people who barely understand it.
  #50  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:46 AM
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The fact that somebody else somewhere may benefit, and I can't because I already went to college isn't a good argument. It's basically saying we can't improve anything for anyone in this country if not 100% of people will see direct benefits from the improvement.
Well I mentioned in my OP that I generally agree here that worrying about fairness is a waste of time, but I'm less concerned with "I already went to college" fairness than "I couldn't afford to go to college" fairness. This is a handout to people well-off enough to be able to get into college and get the loans in the first place, and a big FU to poor and working classes who were kept out of college by the same screwed up system. I think the money could be better spent elsewhere, on that stratus of society, and that's something that concerns me about this plan.

I also think it's a bandaid but I've already said my peace there.

Last edited by steronz; 04-23-2019 at 11:50 AM.
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