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  #301  
Old 05-05-2019, 03:46 PM
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Since the subject is what students pay, yes that is what debt-free college for students is.
You're arguing that the students are not paying, so college costs less. Urbanredneck is arguing that the government is now paying the costs, so colleges will charge them more.
  #302  
Old 05-05-2019, 04:55 PM
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"Cost" and "price" are not the same thing. Every single other reader of this thread gets it, so no need to explain it to one who chooses not to.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:59 PM
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On the "unfair" line of thinking. If I had any outstanding student loans, your taxes would go to me. That doesn't seem like a good place to send them. Likewise, if I sent a kid to, say, UVA next year, we're currently unlikely to receive any financial aid. But this plan would have you covering my family's expenses. It just doesn't seem like good prioritization of funds.

Last edited by Ruken; 05-05-2019 at 05:00 PM.
  #304  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:24 PM
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The plural of anecdote is not data. And that is why I did check first how people that already paid their bills support a plan like Warren, unless you can demonstrate that the survey avoids all people from the cadre you refer to, then what you pointed out are just anecdotes. The point that stands is that it is not just boomers that think that some form of loan forgiveness is needed.
Whatever. You are the one who packed your post full of examples of boomers.
  #305  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:29 PM
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Whatever. You are the one who packed your post full of examples of boomers.
Like if there should be a magical reason to ignore boomer's opinions on this. Not logical at all. And again, since the survey I pointed out uses the internet, there are usually less boomers in there telling us that... yes, this is an idea that we should consider.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-05-2019 at 06:29 PM.
  #306  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:44 PM
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You're arguing that the students are not paying, so college costs less. Urbanredneck is arguing that the government is now paying the costs, so colleges will charge them more.
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"Cost" and "price" are not the same thing. Every single other reader of this thread gets it, so no need to explain it to one who chooses not to.
So says the one that insisted that we are talking the same when we talk about purchasing power and how much people are getting paid nowadays.

Nope, I get it too, it is really silly to press on as if I'm only talking to reduce costs for students, and that that should be dismissed just because you consider the government costs as if it was the only item being considered. And as usual in this thread: it is clear that you do ignore that I do think that means testing (that in part are already in the plan by giving a limit of how much should be forgiven) should be added to the plan. Meaning that well to do students will not have access to this.

Now what you are dealing with is actually with the issue of making a plan like this sustainable, as noted there are several developed nations that manage to do this and they are not ending going up in flames by offering free college education or at a reduced price.

https://www.insider.com/cost-of-coll...e-world-2018-6

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-05-2019 at 06:45 PM.
  #307  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:51 PM
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Forgot to add:

It may happen that private colleges charge more, in countries that offer free or reduced price college education, but there are ways for governments to intervene to prevent that from spiraling out of control.

Now, private institutions will indeed try to charge more, but they will IMHO encounter what does happens when there are good public options (like with health care in civilized nations), trying to charge more does become unsustainable for private institutions when there is a good public option available.
  #308  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:25 PM
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Since the subject is what students pay, yes that is what debt-free college for students is.
But in the end, someone has to pay the bill. and colleges will be free to charge whatever they want.
  #309  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:29 PM
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People should study the humanities. A university education should encourage exploration of subject matter that we might not be otherwise exposed to, and there's a lot more to being educated than just studying math or computers. I would gladly support efforts to make college more affordable precisely so that more people could study these things.
Again, thats what books and movies and trips to museums and such are for.

But does one need to pay $1,000 for a 3 credit class in art history?
  #310  
Old 05-05-2019, 11:18 PM
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But in the end, someone has to pay the bill. and colleges will be free to charge whatever they want.
Please read post #307
  #311  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:38 AM
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Like if there should be a magical reason to ignore boomer's opinions on this. Not logical at all. And again, since the survey I pointed out uses the internet, there are usually less boomers in there telling us that... yes, this is an idea that we should consider.
Gigo! You're usually a smart guy. Review this subthread and you'll see you're thrashing wildly, defending an error and completely unresponsive to me.

It started when you posted (faulty) anecdotes and then lectured me with "The plural of anecdote is not data."
  #312  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:24 AM
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Please read post #307
Which is about what private colleges will charge, which nobody was talking about. Without pricing pressure, and without rules to prevent it, Warren's policy will result in public schools charging more.

No, not to students, in case you try throwing that gem at us again.
  #313  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:41 AM
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Gigo! You're usually a smart guy. Review this subthread and you'll see you're thrashing wildly, defending an error and completely unresponsive to me.

It started when you posted (faulty) anecdotes and then lectured me with "The plural of anecdote is not data."
Not seeing it there, again, what you press is an motional reason in an attempt to make those anecdotes to be dismissed. And the survey is there for a reason, to point at evidence that is not just boomers who see this as proper.
  #314  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:44 AM
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So says the one that insisted that we are talking the same when we talk about purchasing power and how much people are getting paid nowadays.
Real median personal income is up. Real, as in purchasing power. You want the link again? People today have more inflation-adjusted income than they used to.
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Nope, I get it too, it is really silly to press on as if I'm only talking to reduce costs for students
Did you not just write "Since the subject is what students pay"? We can only go by what you write, not what you think you mean.

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it is clear that you do ignore that I do think that means testing (that in part are already in the plan by giving a limit of how much should be forgiven) should be added to the plan. Meaning that well to do students will not have access to this.
Tuition, the subject that, according to you, we were discussing, is not means-tested under the current plan. So this isn't terribly germane now.
  #315  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:50 AM
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Again, thats what books and movies and trips to museums and such are for.

But does one need to pay $1,000 for a 3 credit class in art history?
Nobody "needs" to pay for an organic chemistry lecture either. They have that book in the library.

We've hired plenty of art history majors, but strangely never one with museum trips on their resume. No, not to do anything very art- or history-related. But that's because most of us realize that college isn't a jobs-training program. One generally doesn't major in X just to become an X-ian or -ist.
  #316  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:24 AM
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Real median personal income is up. Real, as in purchasing power. You want the link again? People today have more inflation-adjusted income than they used to.
Again:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...port/37468497/
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Even though the official unemployment rate has been hovering around record lows in recent years, wage growth has stayed stagnant, a new study from Pew Research reveals. In fact, the real average wage, which Pew defines as "the wage after accounting for inflation" has roughly the same purchasing power as it did 40 years ago. And while some workers have seen gains, most of the increases have gone to those who were already the highest-paid.
And again, the point was about purchasing power, your point is indeed about personal income. Not the same, and your point does not counter the other, but it is not my problem if you want to insist that you think it was about the same thing.

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Did you not just write "Since the subject is what students pay"? We can only go by what you write, not what you think you mean.
Yes, I do not say that what you say is not valid, only that as it was the case with the purchasing power, you want to act as if we do not talk about alternatives that therefore they do not exist.

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Tuition, the subject that, according to you, we were discussing, is not means-tested under the current plan. So this isn't terribly germane now.
And third strike too, the effort here is to claim that I was not talking about that, when I did. Means testing is something that will have to be added too so as to make it viable, as I mentioned many, many times already, I'm in favor of Warren's plan with a tweak like means testing. (And it is really funny that on this you mentioned that we should go what what we write before, since I did write about means testing before, your rule here looks arbitrary).
  #317  
Old 05-06-2019, 03:33 PM
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Nobody "needs" to pay for an organic chemistry lecture either. They have that book in the library.

We've hired plenty of art history majors, but strangely never one with museum trips on their resume. No, not to do anything very art- or history-related. But that's because most of us realize that college isn't a jobs-training program. One generally doesn't major in X just to become an X-ian or -ist.
Please expand on this. What kind of jobs do you find art majors good at?
  #318  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:16 PM
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Nobody "needs" to pay for an organic chemistry lecture either. They have that book in the library.

We've hired plenty of art history majors, but strangely never one with museum trips on their resume. No, not to do anything very art- or history-related. But that's because most of us realize that college isn't a jobs-training program. One generally doesn't major in X just to become an X-ian or -ist.
For many, college is nothing more than a signal that one is more literate and motivated than an average high schooler. If college becomes “free” and universal not only will it cost society more it will signal less. Which would put enormous pressure on many to get post grad or professional education as a discriminating signal for economic value.
  #319  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:27 PM
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For many, college is nothing more than a signal that one is more literate and motivated than an average high schooler. If college becomes “free” and universal not only will it cost society more it will signal less. Which would put enormous pressure on many to get post grad or professional education as a discriminating signal for economic value.
What a disaster for nations that then get to choose the best from a larger pool of talent.
  #320  
Old 05-06-2019, 06:55 PM
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What a disaster for nations that then get to choose the best from a larger pool of talent.
Ah, everyone will be above average then. Lol.

You do realize that fixing the elementary and high schools would have a more significant impact than making useless majors ‘free’?
  #321  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:31 PM
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Ah, everyone will be above average then. Lol.
Of course that is not what I said, so it is also a fallacy.

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You do realize that fixing the elementary and high schools would have a more significant impact than making useless majors ‘free’?
Do you realize that that is like saying that 'unlike other developed nations, we can not walk and chew gum at the same time'?

https://www.businessinsider.com/free...s-like-2017-10
  #322  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:11 PM
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Of course that is not what I said, so it is also a fallacy.


Do you realize that that is like saying that 'unlike other developed nations, we can not walk and chew gum at the same time'?

https://www.businessinsider.com/free...s-like-2017-10
Those 5 anecdotes are not convincing. And I don’t know if we can actually do contingent based programs here. We couldn’t even keep the enforced mandate of the ACA due to political realties.

At some point free education has diminishing returns. With politics interfering with proper elementary and secondary education I have no desire to see a further devaluation of tertiary education.
  #323  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:28 PM
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What a disaster for nations that then get to choose the best from a larger pool of talent.
It seems to me that various other threads lament the fact that a high school diploma isn't worth as much as it used to be, and a 4-year degree is becoming more and more required. Won't the same thing happen if 4-year degrees became the norm - people who don't have advanced degrees will become marginalized the way that high school graduates are now?
  #324  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:30 PM
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What a disaster for nations that then get to choose the best from a larger pool of talent.
Or, you have the same pool of talent, but now it's really hard to figure who has it because everyone has the same piece of worthless paper.

Because the other thing guaranteed to happen with 'free' education is that the schools will want to capture all those new rents, and so they will water down programs, spend new money on fancy facilities and anything else they have to do to get on that gravy train.

You can already see that in the Ivy Leagues, which have been raising tuition while watering down their curriculums, inflating grades, and building fancy residences.

When peopple pay for school with their own money, or parents pay for their children's school, they want value for what they are spending. On the other hand, if you're on a four year bender because someone gave you money to do it for free, you really don't need to care much.

Free education pushes the payments onto a third party who has no skin in the game (the government). This is similar to putting insurers between patients and doctors - cost control goes out the window, requiring the insurers to respond by requiring paperwork justification for everything.

Imagine if everyone had a 'right' to free auto repairs, and the government paid for it. Every time you went into an auto shop they'd find reasons to do thousands of dollars of repairs. And why wouldn't they? You don't care - the government's paying for it. And your car gets some new parts. But then the costs go through the roof, and suddenly the government is forced to generate regulations to keep it under control. And those regulations will be no substitute for the judgment of the public, so long as their incentives push them to balance cost vs benefit.

Take away the requirement to pay for college, and you remove the incentive of the colleges to control costs, and the incentives of students and parents to find the best value for the money. That would be a disaster.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 05-06-2019 at 08:30 PM.
  #325  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:01 PM
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Or, you have the same pool of talent, but now it's really hard to figure who has it because everyone has the same piece of worthless paper.

Because the other thing guaranteed to happen with 'free' education is that the schools will want to capture all those new rents, and so they will water down programs, spend new money on fancy facilities and anything else they have to do to get on that gravy train.

You can already see that in the Ivy Leagues, which have been raising tuition while watering down their curriculums, inflating grades, and building fancy residences.

When peopple pay for school with their own money, or parents pay for their children's school, they want value for what they are spending. On the other hand, if you're on a four year bender because someone gave you money to do it for free, you really don't need to care much.

Free education pushes the payments onto a third party who has no skin in the game (the government). This is similar to putting insurers between patients and doctors - cost control goes out the window, requiring the insurers to respond by requiring paperwork justification for everything.

Imagine if everyone had a 'right' to free auto repairs, and the government paid for it. Every time you went into an auto shop they'd find reasons to do thousands of dollars of repairs. And why wouldn't they? You don't care - the government's paying for it. And your car gets some new parts. But then the costs go through the roof, and suddenly the government is forced to generate regulations to keep it under control. And those regulations will be no substitute for the judgment of the public, so long as their incentives push them to balance cost vs benefit.

Take away the requirement to pay for college, and you remove the incentive of the colleges to control costs, and the incentives of students and parents to find the best value for the money. That would be a disaster.
As noted already, it sounds a lot like the "disaster" we should expect any day now for countries that already do this. Seems that we will have to wait as much as the countries that also have healthcare access for all.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-06-2019 at 09:03 PM.
  #326  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:48 PM
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Do you realize that that is like saying that 'unlike other developed nations, we can not walk and chew gum at the same time'?

https://www.businessinsider.com/free...s-like-2017-10
If you read the above they have problems with it like in Denmark where students one can become a "forever student" and students pursue degrees that society doesnt really need but its what they have a "passion" for.

One thing the article doesnt mention is many countries also have tests one must take before being allowed to graduate high school. So imagine you needed a minimum grade on say the SAT to pass high school and score an even higher grade to be admitted to a college!

Am I right on the tests?
  #327  
Old 05-07-2019, 05:33 PM
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If you read the above they have problems with it like in Denmark where students one can become a "forever student" and students pursue degrees that society doesnt really need but its what they have a "passion" for.

One thing the article doesnt mention is many countries also have tests one must take before being allowed to graduate high school. So imagine you needed a minimum grade on say the SAT to pass high school and score an even higher grade to be admitted to a college!

Am I right on the tests?
Objective standards with no bonus or penalties for certain groups as a condition for college? Never happen. But that’s because so-called free college is not about efficient or optimal education. It’s about pandering for votes.
  #328  
Old 05-07-2019, 05:36 PM
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Sounds like you guys cracked the case!
  #329  
Old 05-07-2019, 05:56 PM
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Objective standards with no bonus or penalties for certain groups as a condition for college? Never happen. But that’s because so-called free college is not about efficient or optimal education. It’s about pandering for votes.
Yeah, look at all the rage against the SAT as it stands and at testing in general. Now imagine if one had to actually PASS a test to graduate and even more, to get a high grade to get into college!

The US is actually one of the few countries that doesnt have any sort of national standardized tests one must pass to not only graduate but also to move up in grades or levels.

Add onto this every state in the US has its own rules. Some states say every HS graduate can get into state universities while others require certain SAT or ACT scores or to be in your HS top percentage or have a certain grade point average.

To be honest as it is right now top students already get showered with generous financial aid and scholarships.
  #330  
Old 05-07-2019, 07:18 PM
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If you read the above they have problems with it like in Denmark where students one can become a "forever student" and students pursue degrees that society doesnt really need but its what they have a "passion" for.
I think by know it should be clear that I do read my cites before posting, thank you very much.

Seems that you missed that part about "potential drawbacks" as in: not a biggie really when taking the big picture into context, nothing that some rules about limits on people that are clearly doing that will not solve. It also sounded to me like a "problem" we should risk having just because it is not the norm anyhow.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-07-2019 at 07:22 PM.
  #331  
Old 05-08-2019, 07:18 AM
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I think by know it should be clear that I do read my cites before posting, thank you very much.

Seems that you missed that part about "potential drawbacks" as in: not a biggie really when taking the big picture into context, nothing that some rules about limits on people that are clearly doing that will not solve. It also sounded to me like a "problem" we should risk having just because it is not the norm anyhow.
Well ok. But how about this. Free college but ONLY if you pass the certain qualifications:

1. Top scores on the SAT.
2. Top grades in school and must take AP courses.
3. Letters from teachers and principals vouching that you are a worthy student. EG. you were not a trouble maker, had no excess absences or tardies, went the extra mile to help others and such.
4. Background check and drug testing.
5. When in college must take 16 or more hours a semester and not have a GPA drop lower than 3.0.
6. Time limits on graduation such as 5 years for a Bachelors.


How about that?
  #332  
Old 05-08-2019, 09:46 AM
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Well ok. But how about this. Free college but ONLY if you pass the certain qualifications:

1. Top scores on the SAT.
2. Top grades in school and must take AP courses.
3. Letters from teachers and principals vouching that you are a worthy student. EG. you were not a trouble maker, had no excess absences or tardies, went the extra mile to help others and such.
4. Background check and drug testing.
5. When in college must take 16 or more hours a semester and not have a GPA drop lower than 3.0.
6. Time limits on graduation such as 5 years for a Bachelors.


How about that?
Agree somewhat, but there are items there that require modifications, for 1-2-3, there is the realization that those do not account for many bad environments and sandbagging coming from poverty situations.

And it has to be mentioned: Number 4 is still an attempt at ignoring how things are changing regarding the irrational war on drugs, and it seems to me that a lot is still related to what Nixon and others saw, to use the war against drugs to undermine the poor and minorities.

Related to education, there is evidence that continuing education does help people that were involved with drugs to have further incentives to clean their act or to not get involved with drugs.

With number 5 it is a case where I would also plug in more means testing so as to affect less the people with lower resources, getting a bit of a low grade is less important IMHO than showing that you do attend school and finish your assignments. So, yes on the attendance part, but not so much on the grade, perhaps not allowing it to get lower than 2.5 .

Number 6 is just about OK, with the only addition that there should be incentives to switch to more in tune with their aptitude mayors than the pie in the sky some students get into.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 05-08-2019 at 09:47 AM.
  #333  
Old 05-08-2019, 10:16 PM
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Ok, #4 drug testing could be dropped.

I would add this would only pay for tuition. Books, housing, meals and such would still be paid by the student which could be paid from scholarships or loans.

Also such a system would also need a lottery type program so lets say the country has a need for mechanical engineers, then more scholarships for those and maybe fewer slots for art majors so only the top persons with talents in that would get those.
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