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  #151  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:15 PM
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Biden has been 100% in the bag for banks his entire career. It may be it is impossible to get a politician from Delaware who isn't. Regardless, that alone should make him a no-go for a democratic candidate today.

I do not think Obama was the same when he ran although his administration certainly became a protector of banks. Was that Biden's influence? I have no idea. Either way it is a blight on Obama's presidency (and I mean things like giving HSBC a pass on major criminal actions from the bank).
I haven't read it, but apparently Warren's campaign bio is very critical of what she perceived as Biden's pro-banking influence in the Obama administration's discussions of how to handle the financial crisis. Look for this to come up in the debates.
  #152  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:25 PM
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Hillary Clinton's progressive ideals and female ambition were the reasons that Democrats lost control of the congress after 40 years.


You must really hate the idea of an ambitious black woman running for president.
  #153  
Old 05-01-2019, 08:50 PM
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You must really hate the idea of an ambitious black woman running for president.
No, I don't, but I'm pointing out that we shouldn't be surprised if a significant percentage of the country is.

The idea that Hillary Clinton wasn't a true progressive is partly what fueled the Bernie Bro backlash against her, and yet she was there fighting a lot of the same fights he was fighting before anyone knew who he was, and she paid the price for it. That's not to say that Hillary Clinton didn't make mistakes or that she was a great campaigner who was only screwed because of her gender, but a lot of people who weren't adults in the 1990s don't realize that she paid a tremendous price by simply being an ambitious woman.
  #154  
Old 05-01-2019, 10:09 PM
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The idea that Hillary Clinton wasn't a true progressive...
HRC never, ever was a progressive. She and her husband pioneered "Third Way" politics. Basically republicans who are ok with abortion and gay people.

She tried, a bit, to pretend she was a progressive but a lifetime of not being one undermined her.

Which is what will happen to Biden. After nearly 30 years he is all of a sudden contrite about things like the Anita Hill hearings and trying to minimize a lifetime of shitty decisions. Won't work for him either.
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  #155  
Old 05-01-2019, 11:35 PM
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Warren is overall a pretty unpopular figure but if the debates allow for it (hard to imagine how crowded stages spread over two nights can but if) she will be the one with the best skill set to knock Biden down some. Silver makes a pretty good argument for her potential as the main foil late in this discussion if interested.
  #156  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:48 AM
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Looking at Joe I don't think he can last 18 months of campaigning. Maybe he's just off to a slow start but watching his speech yesterday he didn't exude a lot of energy. Compared to Barack Obama and Bill Clinton who were energetic and very on point as public speakers, Joe is more gaffe-prone but I always thought more relatable because his speeches were largely story-telling rather than prepared remarks.

I didn't see that yesterday. To me he is only running because he is haunted at not running four years ago. I don't think it will end well.
  #157  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:47 AM
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I didn't see that yesterday. To me he is only running because he is haunted at not running four years ago. I don't think it will end well.
He's run for president three times already and lost every time. Fourth time is a charm?
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  #158  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:52 AM
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He's run for president three times already and lost every time. Fourth time is a charm?
I believe he's run twice before: '88 & '08. What's the run I'm missing?
  #159  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:35 AM
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3. The polling prior to 2000 isn't shown. But only six years prior, Hillary's health care initiative during the Clinton administration failed completely.
Not quite, but damn US healthcare is one huge juggernaut to attack. It was partially successful, as any such attacks will be. But it's a lot easier to say that it failed and that Obama's proposal failed than to admit that such moves are of the "if you would reach the moon, aim for the stars" variety; you will never reach the stated goal.
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  #160  
Old 05-02-2019, 03:45 PM
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Stay classy, gato.
Wadda you mean, 'stay'?
  #161  
Old 05-04-2019, 03:21 AM
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She lost to one of the worst candidates in history and it is not because of Bernie Bros. Putting Biden up in the general election is exactly the kind of person so many hated when it was HRC up there. Trump was a vote for change and not more of insiders like HRC running the show. Trump was a ridiculous choice and yet we got Trump. Consider that before pulling the lever for Biden. He is everything HRC was and maybe more.
Less people will come out specifically to vote against Biden than did for Clinton. A non polarizing figure has a pretty good shot against Trump I think.
  #162  
Old 05-04-2019, 07:43 AM
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Warren is overall a pretty unpopular figure but if the debates allow for it (hard to imagine how crowded stages spread over two nights can but if) she will be the one with the best skill set to knock Biden down some. Silver makes a pretty good argument for her potential as the main foil late in this discussion if interested.
I'm not a huge Warren fan - not that I have a personal distaste for her, just that I don't think she's what we're looking for in a presidential candidate. But be that as it may, I can't deny that she's got razor sharp wit and is really good at connecting with people in a crowd. I bet Warren's performances will be must-see TV.
  #163  
Old 05-04-2019, 07:50 AM
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Looking at Joe I don't think he can last 18 months of campaigning. Maybe he's just off to a slow start but watching his speech yesterday he didn't exude a lot of energy. Compared to Barack Obama and Bill Clinton who were energetic and very on point as public speakers, Joe is more gaffe-prone but I always thought more relatable because his speeches were largely story-telling rather than prepared remarks.
That's the thought that keeps popping into my head as well. My sense is that he doesn't really want to be doing this, but he's probably been haunted by the outcome of 2016. He's probably heard people say a million times that Trump wouldn't be president if he had challenged Hillary and won, and I'm sure the decision not to run will forever haunt him. And I'm sure he's heard from pundits that he's got the best chance to beat Trump now, so he almost feels like he has to run. But when I look at him on TV, I see a guy who looks good and healthy for someone in his mid-70s, but...he's in his mid-70s.
  #164  
Old 05-04-2019, 10:53 AM
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That's the thought that keeps popping into my head as well. My sense is that he doesn't really want to be doing this, but he's probably been haunted by the outcome of 2016. He's probably heard people say a million times that Trump wouldn't be president if he had challenged Hillary and won, and I'm sure the decision not to run will forever haunt him. And I'm sure he's heard from pundits that he's got the best chance to beat Trump now, so he almost feels like he has to run. But when I look at him on TV, I see a guy who looks good and healthy for someone in his mid-70s, but...he's in his mid-70s.
Based on that Pittsburgh speech, I don't think he'll make it unless they keep him under wraps. A lot. I mean that was his first public speech after declaring, right? It's not like he ever painted the corners with a 95 mph fastball, but now it's about 55 mph and a little wild.
  #165  
Old 05-04-2019, 11:33 AM
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I wonder if Biden will take credit for the booming economy. A lot of Democrats credit Obama and his policies for creating the foundation for what is going on right now.

Does he have the chutzpah to publicly say," Barak and I created this!"
  #166  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:52 PM
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since free stuff is all the rage now with candidates will Joe give out free depends and dentu creme?
  #167  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:46 AM
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Biden has just opened up an enormous 32% lead over Bernie.


https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...2310-joe-biden

Last edited by Velocity; 05-07-2019 at 12:47 AM.
  #168  
Old 05-07-2019, 03:21 AM
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Well that's horrifying.
  #169  
Old 05-07-2019, 03:44 AM
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Biden has just opened up an enormous 32% lead over Bernie.


https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...2310-joe-biden
Truth is, Biden has opened up a big lead. Not as big as that small-sample-size poll from an outfit run by the ever-trustworthy Mark Penn would have you believe (can't the media afford reporters who will know to look at the sample size *first*? N=259 is crap!), but Morning Consult has Biden up by 40-19 over Sanders, and with a sample size of 15,770, that's just a wee bit more reliable.
  #170  
Old 05-07-2019, 07:35 AM
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I don't think Biden's big lead over the rest of the field means anything at this point. Hillary Clinton started out with a commanding lead over Barack Obama in 2008. In fact she took a 10-12 point lead in the spring of 2007 and opened it up to a 28 point lead in October of that same year - we know how that turned out. In may of 2015, Hillary Clinton led Bernie Sanders 63 - 8, and we know how THAT turned out. The Republican 2015-16 field was definitely tighter but Bush started out with a lead that he held for most of the spring and well into summer, and we know how that ended. Nobody knows the candidates yet. Most of the voters have had a lot of time to be nostalgic about Biden, which was how Hillary Clinton entered the race in 2016. But people will start seeing what they don't like as well as what they do like, and Biden will come back down to earth.

The problem that Biden creates is that he makes some of the candidates pretenders. The pretender candidates will be gone probably by the end of summer, if not before then. In fact, Seth Moulton, Michael Bennett, and Marianne Williamson are all pretty much done before they start, as they will not qualify for the first two debates. They might run zombie campaigns, but they're already irrelevant. John Delaney, John Hickenlooper, Jay Inslee, Tim Ryan, and Eric Swallwell will need to have strong showings in the debates or otherwise gain some name recognition just to have a chance to make it through the summer. So we can already count on 8 candidates being effectively eliminated by the end of July. Not necessarily these I've mentioned - it's possible that some of the other 1-2 % polling candidates drops down while one of the above moves up, but either way, almost half the field will be on our ignore list by the end of summer for all practical purposes.

That will leave us with an elite 8, who will probably include: Biden, Sanders, Harris, Booker, Warren, and Buttigieg. Perhaps Gabbard, Gillibrand, and Klobuchar will round out that group, but they will be fighting just to remain in the conversation. After July, voters will mostly be focusing on Biden, Sanders, Harris, Booker, Warren, and Buttigieg, and it's possible that one or two of those candidates might stumble and that Gabbard, Gillibrand, or Klobuchar moves up. All of this is to say that Biden will have competition. He's not going to run away with the field. The media will begin paying attention to other candidates. Biden may remain the front runner for a while but this level of dominance is unsustainable. He will eventually fall back closer to the rest of the pack.

But the polling is probably bad news - maybe even very bad news - for Bernie Sanders, because the space that he occupies is that of being a candidate who stands in opposition to the Democratic party orthodoxy. He prides himself on being a fringe candidate and that he has succeeded in making the Democrats more open to his 'revolutionary' ideas. But when you look at the polls, this seems to indicate that voters have a lot more on their minds than making the democratic party more authentically progressive. The results seem to suggest that voters want a candidate who can compete with and beat Donald Trump, and that they aren't necessarily looking for a candidate who promises to take a wrecking ball to the system. In 2016, Sanders benefited from the growing unpopularity of his opponent, Hillary Clinton. He became an opposition candidate, and he was new and different. He's not going to have that advantage anymore in 2020. This could be a sign that Bernie Sanders revolution hasn't gone quite as mainstream as some would like to believe. I won't write off Sanders just yet, though, because there's clearly a lot of enthusiasm. But if I'm a Sanders supporter, the polls post-Biden's announcement aren't good.

Last edited by asahi; 05-07-2019 at 07:38 AM.
  #171  
Old 05-07-2019, 06:25 PM
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Williamson as of a couple weeks ago only needed another 9000 donors to qualify for the debate, so she's close. Of course, that assumes that no more than 20 candidates qualify; if more do, the criteria will be changed, so getting those donors still wouldn't guarantee her a spot.
  #172  
Old 05-07-2019, 07:36 PM
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Williamson as of a couple weeks ago only needed another 9000 donors to qualify for the debate, so she's close. Of course, that assumes that no more than 20 candidates qualify; if more do, the criteria will be changed, so getting those donors still wouldn't guarantee her a spot.
She's down to 1800, so I'm pretty certain she'll make it by the end of the month.
  #173  
Old 05-07-2019, 10:40 PM
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I don't think Biden's big lead over the rest of the field means anything at this point. Hillary Clinton started out with a commanding lead over Barack Obama in 2008. In fact she took a 10-12 point lead in the spring of 2007 and opened it up to a 28 point lead in October of that same year - we know how that turned out. In may of 2015, Hillary Clinton led Bernie Sanders 63 - 8, and we know how THAT turned out. ...
She won the nomination handily?

His lead does not mean he is a sure thing to win. It almost certainly will tighten up. Bill Clinton came up from 5% in August '91 to win. But saying that it doesn't mean anything?

Bill Clinton came up from 5% because he was an amazing campaigner with outsized oratory skills who connected with wide swaths of voters. Hillary Clinton lost despite a commanding lead because she was running against someone with similar skills and abilities.

Biden will likely not get the nom if someone demonstrates those mad skillz this time. Too soon to say that they won't. But if no one shows those chops he's the default nominee. The early numbers at least mean that thing.
  #174  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:13 AM
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Colion Noir has released this 4-minute video ripping on Biden. The lines of attack featured there are probably something Dems ought to be aware of as they're deciding who their nominee is going to be.
  #175  
Old 05-13-2019, 03:59 PM
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Colion Noir has released this 4-minute video ripping on Biden. The lines of attack featured there are probably something Dems ought to be aware of as they're deciding who their nominee is going to be.
Don't really feel like giving some NRA shill clicks. Can you give the broad strokes?
  #176  
Old 05-13-2019, 04:14 PM
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BIden can certainly lose, but now another candidate has to actually take it from him, really earn it. It's not just a bunch of candidates in a crowded field anymore. Now it's a crowded field with a crystal clear frontrunner. The only way to beat Biden is if ONE of those candidates captures the base's imagination. I don't see an Obama here, sorry.
  #177  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:08 PM
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Bill Maher had a good comment : Biden is like old comfortable shoes and America's feet hurt.
  #178  
Old 05-13-2019, 06:23 PM
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Bill Maher had a good comment : Biden is like old comfortable shoes and America's feet hurt.
Good one, although I think Biden is also genuinely liked, even by many Republicans. He's authentic, honest to a fault, and genuinely likes his opponents. There's been too much divisiveness. It's time to heal before things get really out of hand.
  #179  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:13 AM
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Good one, although I think Biden is also genuinely liked, even by many Republicans. ...
He's got a 21% favorability rating among Republicans, according to this recent poll (which is more than the other Dem candidates)
  #180  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:39 AM
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Good one, although I think Biden is also genuinely liked, even by many Republicans. He's authentic, honest to a fault, and genuinely likes his opponents. There's been too much divisiveness. It's time to heal before things get really out of hand.
He's also completely delusional, claiming that republicans will have "an epiphany" and work with democrats towards consensus.

This, for someone who was literally part of the white house from 2008 onwards, is akin to saying, "Republicans don't really want war with Iran." It's so completely wrong based on everything we know, and if you rely on it for policy decisions, you're going to get your ass burned.

Biden needs to not be the nominee. I'm already seeing rumbling along the lines of "if Biden is the nominee, I'm staying home", and I absolutely understand why - Biden is an utterly shitty candidate.

Biden is a lot of things - delusional, milquetoast, unwilling to take bold action on climate change and so basically not much better than the outright denialists, holding a voting record that should have ended his political career ages ago, mildly creepy - but he is not inspiring. He's comfortable, right up until you scratch the surface even a little bit. The people who do scratch the surface find a man who has been exceedingly kind to republicans, racists, and banks, and by that token exceedingly unkind to their victims. A man who eulogized Strom Thurmond, voted for Iraq, and to this day is laboring under the insane delusion that all it'll take is being a little nicer to make Mitch McConnell stop feeding democratic norms cock-first through a malfunctioning industrial shredder. For fuck's sake, the dude thinks millenials are all whiny bitches and has said as much. And this guy is supposed to represent us?

I really hope enough dems scratch the surface to realize what a terrible candidate Biden is. Everything that was wrong with Clinton is exemplified by him - he's a long-term political insider with a long history of bad votes and pseudoscandals ripe for exploitation. All he has to work with in the progressive crowd is "I'm not Trump", and as we've discovered, that's not enough to win an election.

And even if he does win - what then? We get a compromise candidate, a person who's utterly incapable of facing off against the republican party on their level. A person who will "go high" when McConnell breaks the rules over and over and over again. A person who will seek compromise with the republican party, which in effect means giving up more and more ground in the hopes that they return the favor and not noticing that they never fucking will. Four years of an utterly ineffectual president hamstrung by republicans in congress and the judiciary - sounds like a great fucking plan.

TL;DR: fuck Biden. The dude should not be running, and if he wins the primary we are completely fucked.
  #181  
Old 05-15-2019, 02:59 AM
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I'm already seeing rumbling along the lines of "if Biden is the nominee, I'm staying home..."
Worked out great last time, didn't it?

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...we are completely fucked.
If everybody's as petulant as that, yes we are.
  #182  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:11 AM
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Worked out great last time, didn't it?



If everybody's as petulant as that, yes we are.
Oh don't get me wrong, people need to get out and vote for whoever the democratic nominee is.

It's just that Biden is a terrible choice for that job, precisely because he's utterly uninspiring and directly insulting to a key democratic constituency that is disproportionately likely to not vote. He's a terrible candidate - especially against Trump.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:51 AM
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Oh don't get me wrong, people need to get out and vote for whoever the democratic nominee is.

It's just that Biden is a terrible choice for that job, precisely because he's utterly uninspiring and directly insulting to a key democratic constituency that is disproportionately likely to not vote.
Do you believe that, if Biden is the nominee, Barack Obama will stump for him?
  #184  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:54 AM
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Do you believe that, if Biden is the nominee, Barack Obama will stump for him?
Yes.

(I also think Obama is very likely to stump for any nominee.)
  #185  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:18 AM
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She won the nomination handily?
I wouldn't say that she won handily; she had a much closer race than anyone anticipated, and Bernie's campaign was able to deliver lasting damage.

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Bill Clinton came up from 5% because he was an amazing campaigner with outsized oratory skills who connected with wide swaths of voters. Hillary Clinton lost despite a commanding lead because she was running against someone with similar skills and abilities.
I don't disagree. What I'm saying is we really don't know who we have in the field just yet. We might have a breakout candidate or two but we probably won't know how strong the field is, and how strong Biden is, until around October or November.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:19 AM
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Yes.

(I also think Obama is very likely to stump for any nominee.)
I think he'll stump for the nominee, but he won't stump for any individual candidate until the nominee is clear.
  #187  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:42 AM
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He's also completely delusional, claiming that republicans will have "an epiphany" and work with democrats towards consensus.

This, for someone who was literally part of the white house from 2008 onwards, is akin to saying, "Republicans don't really want war with Iran." It's so completely wrong based on everything we know, and if you rely on it for policy decisions, you're going to get your ass burned.

Biden needs to not be the nominee. I'm already seeing rumbling along the lines of "if Biden is the nominee, I'm staying home", and I absolutely understand why - Biden is an utterly shitty candidate.

Biden is a lot of things - delusional, milquetoast, unwilling to take bold action on climate change and so basically not much better than the outright denialists, holding a voting record that should have ended his political career ages ago, mildly creepy - but he is not inspiring. He's comfortable, right up until you scratch the surface even a little bit. The people who do scratch the surface find a man who has been exceedingly kind to republicans, racists, and banks, and by that token exceedingly unkind to their victims. A man who eulogized Strom Thurmond, voted for Iraq, and to this day is laboring under the insane delusion that all it'll take is being a little nicer to make Mitch McConnell stop feeding democratic norms cock-first through a malfunctioning industrial shredder. For fuck's sake, the dude thinks millenials are all whiny bitches and has said as much. And this guy is supposed to represent us?

I really hope enough dems scratch the surface to realize what a terrible candidate Biden is. Everything that was wrong with Clinton is exemplified by him - he's a long-term political insider with a long history of bad votes and pseudoscandals ripe for exploitation. All he has to work with in the progressive crowd is "I'm not Trump", and as we've discovered, that's not enough to win an election.

And even if he does win - what then? We get a compromise candidate, a person who's utterly incapable of facing off against the republican party on their level. A person who will "go high" when McConnell breaks the rules over and over and over again. A person who will seek compromise with the republican party, which in effect means giving up more and more ground in the hopes that they return the favor and not noticing that they never fucking will. Four years of an utterly ineffectual president hamstrung by republicans in congress and the judiciary - sounds like a great fucking plan.

TL;DR: fuck Biden. The dude should not be running, and if he wins the primary we are completely fucked.
He's popular in the industrial Midwest, he's inspiring plenty of people (at the moment) based on the utter domination he's showing in the polls, and he's popular with African Americans. Those are what matters, not your "rumblings" of some brain-dead purity ponies staying home.

But, hey, I give you 9/10 for histrionics.
  #188  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:56 AM
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He's also completely delusional, claiming that republicans will have "an epiphany" and work with democrats towards consensus.

This, for someone who was literally part of the white house from 2008 onwards, is akin to saying, "Republicans don't really want war with Iran." It's so completely wrong based on everything we know, and if you rely on it for policy decisions, you're going to get your ass burned.

Biden needs to not be the nominee. I'm already seeing rumbling along the lines of "if Biden is the nominee, I'm staying home", and I absolutely understand why - Biden is an utterly shitty candidate.

Biden is a lot of things - delusional, milquetoast, unwilling to take bold action on climate change and so basically not much better than the outright denialists, holding a voting record that should have ended his political career ages ago, mildly creepy - but he is not inspiring. He's comfortable, right up until you scratch the surface even a little bit. The people who do scratch the surface find a man who has been exceedingly kind to republicans, racists, and banks, and by that token exceedingly unkind to their victims. A man who eulogized Strom Thurmond, voted for Iraq, and to this day is laboring under the insane delusion that all it'll take is being a little nicer to make Mitch McConnell stop feeding democratic norms cock-first through a malfunctioning industrial shredder. For fuck's sake, the dude thinks millenials are all whiny bitches and has said as much. And this guy is supposed to represent us?

I really hope enough dems scratch the surface to realize what a terrible candidate Biden is. Everything that was wrong with Clinton is exemplified by him - he's a long-term political insider with a long history of bad votes and pseudoscandals ripe for exploitation. All he has to work with in the progressive crowd is "I'm not Trump", and as we've discovered, that's not enough to win an election.

And even if he does win - what then? We get a compromise candidate, a person who's utterly incapable of facing off against the republican party on their level. A person who will "go high" when McConnell breaks the rules over and over and over again. A person who will seek compromise with the republican party, which in effect means giving up more and more ground in the hopes that they return the favor and not noticing that they never fucking will. Four years of an utterly ineffectual president hamstrung by republicans in congress and the judiciary - sounds like a great fucking plan.

TL;DR: fuck Biden. The dude should not be running, and if he wins the primary we are completely fucked.
I completely endorse every single word of this post. Bravo.

Seriously, if Biden is the nominee, the Democrats will not retake the Senate, no meaningful legislation will pass, he will not appoint a single judge, and his entire term will be spent just trying to confirm his cabinet appointees. His naivety about the supposedly dormant Republican desire to embrace bipartisanship makes me want to tear my hair out. It's easy to imagine the Turtle holding open 2-3 SCOTUS seats as well, at which point blue states will just consign themselves to openly ignoring future SCOTUS decisions (a practice I think they should already be following, but I digress).

Last edited by 2ManyTacos; 05-15-2019 at 10:59 AM.
  #189  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:16 AM
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He's popular in the industrial Midwest, he's inspiring plenty of people (at the moment) based on the utter domination he's showing in the polls, and he's popular with African Americans. Those are what matters, not your "rumblings" of some brain-dead purity ponies staying home.

But, hey, I give you 9/10 for histrionics.
You're right.

What doesn't matter, apparently, is global warming.

Because Biden's gonna come up with some 'middle of the road' response to global warming that people like his adviser on climate matters, Heather Zichal, board member of fracking giant Cheniere, are OK with.

And he won't even be able to get that through Congress because Mitch McConnell isn't going to have any 'epiphany' and will filibuster it.

And Biden thinks the filibuster is great, and if you can't get 60 votes in the Senate, you obviously weren't persuasive enough, or something. So tough luck, planet, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

For all practical purposes, this is the Primary To Save the Earth. Call me a purity pony, but I'm biased towards stopping global warming before it hits the self-perpetuating feedback loop.

I'll probably check out somewhere around mid-century, but my son could live to the beginning of the next one. Most days, I try not to think about what sort of world he'll spend most of his life in. But some days, I have to. And I will not settle for a political win that's a climate loss, because that's no win at all.
  #190  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:42 AM
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You're right.

What doesn't matter, apparently, is global warming.

Because Biden's gonna come up with some 'middle of the road' response to global warming that people like his adviser on climate matters, Heather Zichal, board member of fracking giant Cheniere, are OK with.

And he won't even be able to get that through Congress because Mitch McConnell isn't going to have any 'epiphany' and will filibuster it.
If we postulate that McConnell will filibuster anything to do with climate no matter if he is majority or minority leader, then what does it matter what stance the Democratic nominee takes? We can nominate the purest and greenest advocate of climate change mitigation there is and turn off the voters who are just trying to put food on the table, or we can take a measured approach and try to win the election. Put another way, we can try to get everything done and guarantee that nothing gets done, or we can work to get something done even if it's less than ideal.
  #191  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:55 AM
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he's popular with African Americans
I mean... apparently you're right, but I legit do not get it. This guy has a consistent record furthering the war on drugs and mass incarceration and still defends his abysmal crime bill. He was good friends with a bunch of old-school racists. His record on desegregation and busing is pretty awful as well. Then there was the whole Anita Hill thing, although that was more "shitty sexism" than "shitty racism".

So I don't get it. I legitimately do not get why black people would support him over... Basically anyone else. His record on racial justice is among the worst among the Democratic contenders (maybe Buttigeig's is worse, hard to gauge). I have to wonder - how persistent will that be?
  #192  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:56 AM
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You're right.

What doesn't matter, apparently, is global warming.

Because Biden's gonna come up with some 'middle of the road' response to global warming that people like his adviser on climate matters, Heather Zichal, board member of fracking giant Cheniere, are OK with.

And he won't even be able to get that through Congress because Mitch McConnell isn't going to have any 'epiphany' and will filibuster it.

And Biden thinks the filibuster is great, and if you can't get 60 votes in the Senate, you obviously weren't persuasive enough, or something. So tough luck, planet, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

For all practical purposes, this is the Primary To Save the Earth. Call me a purity pony, but I'm biased towards stopping global warming before it hits the self-perpetuating feedback loop.

I'll probably check out somewhere around mid-century, but my son could live to the beginning of the next one. Most days, I try not to think about what sort of world he'll spend most of his life in. But some days, I have to. And I will not settle for a political win that's a climate loss, because that's no win at all.
You think Inslee or Beto or Buttegieg or Bernie or...you fill in your favorite here... will have a better time getting something passed through a Republican Senate than Joe Biden? The guy who has actually gotten things passed through a Republican Senate AND House? That's laughable. If nothing else, Biden is the guy who has the ability to actually get something past these GOP assclowns, even if it's incremental. I'd rather have incremental progress than the backwards slide we've got now, or a complete standstill we'd have with someone less experienced at horse-trading and arm-twisting and deal-making. You can wish for a Green New Deal all you want, but it ain't gonna happen in the current political landscape, no matter who's president.

Last edited by Happy Lendervedder; 05-15-2019 at 12:00 PM.
  #193  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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The current Republican Party is fundamentally a fascist party opposed to democracy. This is the logical outcome of their financial dependence on the ultra-wealthy, who demand that they enact policies which can't win democratic support. If this party continues to win approximately half the elections, our democracy is doomed.

If the GOP keeps the Senate in 2020, absolutely no decent legislation will pass for the next two years, no matter who the President is. It doesn't matter if we are proposing the total restructuring of our economic system or the most modest reforms imaginable. The idea that Biden might somehow be able to "compromise" with Mitch McConnell in order to get anything done is ludicrous.

Biden seems to be pushing this narrative where Trump just landed in a flying saucer one day and somehow took over a party which had previously been run by public-spirited, patriotic Americans committed to bipartisan compromise. Surely he's not stupid enough to actually believe these things, right? He remembers Merrick Garland. He remembers the GOP refusal to cooperate with the financial bailout in 2009.

So if he's not stupid, he must be lying because he thinks it's what "swing voters" want to hear. But lying to voters never works in the long run. If he's elected, the GOP will obstruct him to the best of their abilities and he'll have nothing to show for it come re-election time.

Last edited by Thing Fish; 05-15-2019 at 12:17 PM.
  #194  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:23 PM
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I mean... apparently you're right, but I legit do not get it. This guy has a consistent record furthering the war on drugs and mass incarceration and still defends his abysmal crime bill. He was good friends with a bunch of old-school racists. His record on desegregation and busing is pretty awful as well. Then there was the whole Anita Hill thing, although that was more "shitty sexism" than "shitty racism".

So I don't get it. I legitimately do not get why black people would support him over... Basically anyone else. His record on racial justice is among the worst among the Democratic contenders (maybe Buttigeig's is worse, hard to gauge). I have to wonder - how persistent will that be?
Know any black folks that you can talk politics with? I do. The views expressed on certain topics might just surprise you. Especially from the older crowd.
  #195  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:55 PM
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my guess is people are thinking Biden is Obama version 2. Otherwise I can't figure out why he's so popular. And maybe it's a reaction to Trump having zero political experience before taking office so now they want a guy with 40+ years in DC.
  #196  
Old 05-15-2019, 12:58 PM
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So I don't get it. I legitimately do not get why black people would support him over... Basically anyone else. His record on racial justice is among the worst among the Democratic contenders (maybe Buttigeig's is worse, hard to gauge). I have to wonder - how persistent will that be?
Yeah, you don't get it at all. Black voters are Democrats in the general and pragmatic in the primary. They've been voting for imperfect white guys for the (eta: almost!)entirety of the country's history. They don't expect a racial equality warrior to ever win the presidency. So they want a guy who is generally going the right direction and will actually win the general. As a demographic, they've learned that a revolution is not going to happen, unlike the impatient and untrustworthy millennials who rumble about sitting on their asses if the perfect candidate doesn't appear. I would bet Bidens eulogy for Thurmond bothers them a lot less than it does angry young white men, like yourself.

Last edited by CarnalK; 05-15-2019 at 01:01 PM.
  #197  
Old 05-15-2019, 01:07 PM
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It's true that not all black voters are very liberal. One example is the issue of gay marriage , when CA voted to ban gay marriage in 2008 the black vote was 70% to ban gay marriage.
  #198  
Old 05-15-2019, 03:08 PM
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The latest PA polls could hardly be better for Biden. He smashes Trump by 53-42. Sanders beats Trump 50-43 and Warren 47-44. Harris is 45-45.

Some Democrats may be moving left but most Democrats want above all to win and if these numbers don't change , they will think long and hard before choosing anyone else.
  #199  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:31 AM
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Yeah, you don't get it at all. Black voters are Democrats in the general and pragmatic in the primary. They've been voting for imperfect white guys for the (eta: almost!)entirety of the country's history. They don't expect a racial equality warrior to ever win the presidency. So they want a guy who is generally going the right direction and will actually win the general. As a demographic, they've learned that a revolution is not going to happen, unlike the impatient and untrustworthy millennials who rumble about sitting on their asses if the perfect candidate doesn't appear. I would bet Bidens eulogy for Thurmond bothers them a lot less than it does angry young white men, like yourself.
So why did those untrustworthy black people sit on their asses in 2016 rather than turning out to vote for Clinton? You remember 2016, right? That was the election in which Millennials turned out in unprecedented numbers to vote Democratic, even though their preferred candidate didn't get the nomination. Well, at least White, Asian and Latino Millennials did...

Last edited by Thing Fish; 05-16-2019 at 11:33 AM.
  #200  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:53 PM
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nm

Last edited by asahi; 05-16-2019 at 01:55 PM.
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