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  #51  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:36 PM
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That's what's so amazing about what Russia is doing. They are nearly irrelevant. They are not a world power politically, militarily (outside of nukes), or economically.

They are doing all of this through clever means. They're good at espionage and propaganda. Finding and exploiting schisms. This is why I called it what may be the greatest espionage operation of all time. A relatively impotent Russia is going to take out arguably the most powerful empire in the history of the world simply through clever espionage. The vastly more powerful Soviet Union wasn't able to do it. But now this minor player kleptocracy, with a very needed assist from toxic conservatism, is pulling it off. It's incredible. We're watching one of the all time great historical events and everyone refuses to see it.
I don't think they're particularly clever or good at it, they're just being credited with wild successes (like the above post) far beyond what they actually did. For example, they're nowhere near "going to take out" the USA. We'll still be here in two or six years, and we'll still be the world's superpower.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 05-02-2019 at 04:37 PM.
  #52  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:45 PM
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Oh sure, but this is the moment that history will look back upon as the point of clear decline of our empire. We are ceding the future of Asia and Africa to China. We are ceding leadership of the free world to Europe and Germany specifically. We have divided ourselves too deeply to remain a unified, powerful force indefinitely.

We are building an economy that is concentrating wealth in even higher levels than we did previous to the great depression, and such a model is unsustainable. It will weaken our economic power overall, and we'll become more of a kleptocracy. We're obviously already an oligarchy. Our military spending will become more and more burdensome with our relatively declining economic profile, but we will remain far too attached to it to do anything about that. But perhaps more importantly in terms of our status as a world power, we will use our military in more kleptocratic ways, to enrich a few people, rather than to improve American hegemony.

This is the beginning of the end.

Edit: Maybe some future digital archaelogist will see my post in the future and make note of how accurately I called it. Hi future people. Not all of us were blind or gleefully running down this path.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 05-02-2019 at 04:46 PM.
  #53  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:49 PM
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And on top of all of that, the sky is falling too
  #54  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:50 PM
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I do wonder one day if you'll ever realize and regret that you're a #3. My gut says no, but people do sometimes change and mature.
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Old 05-02-2019, 04:53 PM
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I do wonder one day if you'll ever realize and regret that you're a #3. My gut says no, but people do sometimes change and mature.
I have no idea what "a #3" is (nor do I care), so I doubt it.
  #56  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:54 PM
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... Maybe some future digital archaelogist will see my post in the future and make note of how accurately I called it. Hi future people. Not all of us were blind or gleefully running down this path.
More likely outcome: some kids on the conservative blogosphere are going to find it and laugh about it with their friends, and then life, and America, will continue to muddle on without the bulk of your predictions coming true.
  #57  
Old 05-02-2019, 04:56 PM
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To paraphrase from MIB: There's always an Russian bot, or a Chinese data infiltration, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life in this miserable country, but it's only steely eyed visionaries like those who can make predictions that the end is nigh (or maybe that this is the beginning of the end, or the middle of the end, or the end of the beginning...or some sort of end) that keep this board spinning...



Seriously man, you need to take a deep breath. What Russia has or is doing (or even what China is or has done) isn't some sort of signal that the US is going down for the count, or that dogs and cats are going to start living together...or even that Democrats and Republicans are going to start working together.
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  #58  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:04 PM
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The funny thing is, I gather that the US is already, as in right now, already happened, on the historical record, taking massive hits in international relations, international agreements, balanced trade... it doesn't feel like one has to be a prognositcator to sense the bridges burning; one can already smell the smoke.

Now does that mean that the we're going to have an Even Greater Depression and break up into a bunch of warring city-states? Not so much. But the claim I'm hearing isn't that we're going to vanish or be obliterated by a piece of falling sky; it's that we've cheerfully leapt off of our reigning seat on the international stage and ceded it to eastern powers. Which, honestly, doesn't seem like that incredible of a claim.
  #59  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:10 PM
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And nothing going on nowadays compares with the pro-communist folks in the west who gave up nuclear secrets to Stalin.
That would be a valid comparison is Julius Rosenberg had been President of the United States.

Sure, lots of Americans have been willing to sell out their country. But Trump's the first President who's been willing to do it.

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Seriously man, you need to take a deep breath. What Russia has or is doing (or even what China is or has done) isn't some sort of signal that the US is going down for the count, or that dogs and cats are going to start living together...or even that Democrats and Republicans are going to start working together.
As I said, I do see this as different. I'm sure Russia and other countries have made offers to other candidates in the past. But this is the first time a candidate has said yes to the offer.

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  #60  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:15 PM
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... the claim I'm hearing isn't that we're going to vanish or be obliterated by a piece of falling sky; it's that we've cheerfully leapt off of our reigning seat on the international stage and ceded it to eastern powers. Which, honestly, doesn't seem like that incredible of a claim.
This is the post that lead to this line of discussion (I've highlighted the relevant bit):

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Originally Posted by SenorBeef View Post
That's what's so amazing about what Russia is doing. They are nearly irrelevant. They are not a world power politically, militarily (outside of nukes), or economically.

They are doing all of this through clever means. They're good at espionage and propaganda. Finding and exploiting schisms. This is why I called it what may be the greatest espionage operation of all time. A relatively impotent Russia is going to take out arguably the most powerful empire in the history of the world simply through clever espionage. The vastly more powerful Soviet Union wasn't able to do it. But now this minor player kleptocracy, with a very needed assist from toxic conservatism, is pulling it off. It's incredible. We're watching one of the all time great historical events and everyone refuses to see it.
I'd ask you if that's the functional equivalent of "we're going to vanish or be obliterated by a piece of falling sky", but the question would appear to be entirely rhetorical.

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  #61  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
This is the post that lead to this line of discussion. I've highlighted the relevant bit.



I'd ask you if that's the functional equivalent of "we're going to vanish or be obliterated by a piece of falling sky", but the question would appear to be entirely rhetorical.
The thing I noticed in the highlighted bit is that it called the US an "empire", which would seem to be rather blatantly casting the discussion in terms of America's weight and reach on the international playing field.

Last edited by begbert2; 05-02-2019 at 05:19 PM.
  #62  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:19 PM
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The funny thing is, I gather that the US is already, as in right now, already happened, on the historical record, taking massive hits in international relations, international agreements, balanced trade... it doesn't feel like one has to be a prognositcator to sense the bridges burning; one can already smell the smoke.

Now does that mean that the we're going to have an Even Greater Depression and break up into a bunch of warring city-states? Not so much. But the claim I'm hearing isn't that we're going to vanish or be obliterated by a piece of falling sky; it's that we've cheerfully leapt off of our reigning seat on the international stage and ceded it to eastern powers. Which, honestly, doesn't seem like that incredible of a claim.
This was claimed up thread. What evidence do you have that the US is taking a massive hit wrt international relations? We have taken something of a hit wrt China, but our relations with them have been rocky. In practical terms, how has our relations with Europe actually changed? What about our Asian partners? Has that changed? Australia? Canada? I'm not seeing any sort of practical, real world change to be honest. Several world leaders have TALKED about pivoting to other partners and away from the US, but where is the evidence they actually are doing it? Are the Europeans building up their own military in anticipation of going it alone, without the US? How about Japan? South Korea? Are they talking about snuggling up to the other up and coming superpower, China? Doesn't seem likely, though some European countries do seem to be toying with the idea (Italy and Greece spring to mind).

It honestly does seem like an incredible claim to me as I don't see evidence of it actually happening...and this is WITH this orange haired idiot in charge. But, even with that, I don't see countries taking real, practical and visible steps away from the US and towards...something else. But if you have some evidence of this happening, I'm all ears.
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  #63  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:20 PM
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The funny thing is, I gather that the US is already, as in right now, already happened, on the historical record, taking massive hits in international relations, international agreements, balanced trade... it doesn't feel like one has to be a prognositcator to sense the bridges burning; one can already smell the smoke.

Now does that mean that the we're going to have an Even Greater Depression and break up into a bunch of warring city-states? Not so much. But the claim I'm hearing isn't that we're going to vanish or be obliterated by a piece of falling sky; it's that we've cheerfully leapt off of our reigning seat on the international stage and ceded it to eastern powers. Which, honestly, doesn't seem like that incredible of a claim.
Yes, this is a more accurate assessment of what I wrote.

Additionally, I believe we're right on the cusp of an age where autocrats help each other over their own national interest. Trump has basically written love letters to every autocrat in existence. He's jealous of them. He wants his own tin pot dictatorship complete with military parades. He lavishes praises on autocrats and frequently insults democratic allies.

The Republicans have voted not just to not beef up our election security, but to defund it and make us even more vulnerable to election interference. They are inviting foreign powers to interfere in our elections in their favor. This is not happenstance. This is part of their strategy to deal with changing demographics in this country not working in their favor. In return, the US will likely help autocrats around the world win their elections too.

I suspect we will see an era of increasing trans-national autocrats working in each other's best interest regardless of their own national interest. They look to their own power and wealth first, and they recognize that other powerful people are available to a quid-pro-quo agreement.

Since Trump has conclusively proven that corruption and acting to enrich and empower yourself even at the cost of national interest is something that not only goes unpunished but paradoxically makes people love you even harder, this is the moment where it opens the flood gates for autocrats or potential autocrats the world around to join in on it.

We're in the nascent stage where cyberwarfare and foreign propoganda influencing elections in powerful, democratic countries is being attempted at a large and effective scale. Our response to this should've been to stamp it out, to attack it as much as we could, but instead we've just sort of let it slide. No one is really doing anything. There's a lot of talk about how democrats are outraged and what not, but what are they actually doing?

Autocrats go unpunished for what is probably the greatest case of espionage and propaganda warfare to influence the election of a major democratic country. This is just encouragement for more of the same.

We're in for an explosion of autocrats scratching each other's backs the world around. This will be looked back upon as a turning point for the validity of elections and the shift where even shitty autocrats would still care about their own national interest.
  #64  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:20 PM
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43%. If you're this far off on basic numerical facts, it doesn't bode well for the accuracy of the rest of your post.
Are you claiming that "Approval" and "doing a fine job" are equivalent and that "something like" means "exactly"? That doesn't bode well for the accuracy of your communication abilities.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:22 PM
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The thing I noticed in the highlighted bit is that it called the US an "empire", which would seem to be rather blatantly casting the discussion in terms of America's weight and reach on the international playing field.
I'm not particularly worried about our standing with western Europe. I remember hearing similar alarmism during the administration of GWB. Leftist European countries like leftist American presidents and dislike conservatives / Republicans. Oh well, IDGAF.

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  #66  
Old 05-02-2019, 05:26 PM
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Are you claiming that "Approval" and "doing a fine job" are equivalent and that "something like" means "exactly"? That doesn't bode well for the accuracy of your communication abilities.
If you don't mind a claim being off by 8 points, we could just as accurately say: "something like" 51% of the population think he's doing a fine job.

<sarcasm> Nobody could possibly object to that sort of a characterization, could they? </sarcasm>
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:27 PM
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I'm not particularly worried about our standing with western Europe.
Whether you, personally, are particularly worried about it or not isn't particularly relevant. You see, it's not about you.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:30 PM
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Whether you, personally, are particularly worried about it or not isn't particularly relevant. You see, it's not about you.
Sure. What I was attempting to illustrate is that EU opinions of America were similarly low during the Bush administration, and we didn't suffer any particularly lasting harm as a result. Just like it doesn't matter what I think about it, it doesn't matter what France or Germany think about it.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:31 PM
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I'm not particularly worried about our standing with western Europe. I remember hearing similar alarmism during the administration of GWB. Leftist European countries like leftist American presidents and dislike conservatives / Republicans. Oh well, IDGAF.
This...doesn't really respond to anything I said. I mean, I recall mentioning things like agreements and trade - things at the government level, not popular opinion.

And yeah, conservatives have never really cared that their policies are widely despised by first-world democratic populations. That's not really here or there.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:34 PM
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This...doesn't really respond to anything I said. I mean, I recall mentioning things like agreements and trade - things at the government level, not popular opinion.

And yeah, conservatives have never really cared that their policies are widely despised by first-world democratic populations. That's not really here or there.
So what's your concern? That we pulled out of the Paris Climate Agreement? Or that we're not trading enough with other countries (which appears to not be a concern)?
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:41 PM
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So what's your concern? That we pulled out of the Paris Climate Agreement? Or that we're not trading enough with other countries (which appears to not be a concern)?
Well, I AM concerned about our current "Burn the world down for fun and momentary profit" approach to the environment, and I have also heard some disturbing things about how tariffs are not, in fact, an all-purpose tool leading to guaranteed trade supremacy. But mostly I'm vaguely smelling bridges burning in the distance and wondering what that means for us in the future.

I don't follow international politics well enough to predict specific outcomes, but I am awake enough to be supremely unimpressed by people who claim that being a brain-damaged bull in the international china shop cannot possibly have any negative consequences ever, because reasons.
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:43 PM
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Sure. What I was attempting to illustrate is that EU opinions of America were similarly low during the Bush administration, and we didn't suffer any particularly lasting harm as a result. Just like it doesn't matter what I think about it, it doesn't matter what France or Germany think about it.
Bush didn't shit on NATO or start rearranging the geopolitical picture out of pique. Bush didn't leave soybean crops rotting in the field as a result of mistakenly believing he knew better either. The comparison is not valid.
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  #73  
Old 05-02-2019, 06:24 PM
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What has happened to the US over the last 3 years?

We're hated by our traditional allies. Our traditional allies have turned to Germany and away from America for leadership of the free world.

A century of soft power in global affairs is going to waste. The state department is running on less than a skeleton crew. We're ending programs and closing facilities designed to increase American influence around the world. We've lost countless, invaluable human leadership and connections that the US has spent a century, countless careers, and lots of money building up. Our influence of the world has declined incredibly in just three years.

We've had the credibility of our intelligence and law enforcement agencies attacked and discredited, especially in regards to foreign influence and cyberwarfare in our country.

We've deliberately weakened our election security (not only did the Republicans stonewall election security reform and budget increases, but they actually voted to decrease security funding) so that foreign agents can more freely interfere in our future elections.

We've changed our foreign policy to be far more pro-Russia than it was before, or that it would've been under Hillary. When Trump became the nominee, the GOP quietly added to their platform legitimacy to the Russian seizing of the Crimea.

We're not enforcing sanctions and other legal controls on Russia, and no one is holding the executive accountable for doing this. Congress has sent a clear message - with some sanctions bills receiving unanimous support - but these have simply gone unenforced with no consequences.

We've pulled out of arms limitations agreements rather than punishing Russia for their violation of those agreements, essentially rewarding their behavior in acting towards a new strategic arms race.

We've seen a massive push to use Russia's firehose of falsehoods propoganda model on the US to undermine confidence in actual legitimate news sources and to boost confidence in foreign-backed propoganda and fake news.

We've done nothing at all to punish Russia for their cyberwarfare against us and influence in the 2016 and 2018 elections. Our president is willing to insult and make demands of our traditional allies, but is completely subservient to Vladimir Putin. The one person in the world he seems to be unwilling to criticize.

In general, pretty much every action of this executive serves to weaken America's standing in the world, America's global power, and status as leader of the free world, and to weaken trust in her institutions.

If this all wasn't basically the greatest intelligence operation in history, then it's a mighty big coincidence that it looks exactly like that. Russia, with an economy smaller than Italy, has managed to do more damage in 3 years to the power and standing of the United States than the Soviet Union managed to do in 50 years of the cold war. Historians of the future will marvel at it - one of the world's greatest empires undone by a clever old ex-KGB officer.
So well said Senor Beef. All because of the inability of a large faction of the USA that refuses to think, and would prefer to blame others for their inability to make a better life for themselves. Racists mostly, lazy bums the rest of them.

I agree COMPLETELY to help people that are in need. But the stupid fucks that voted for Trump are getting just what they deserve. It's really quite sad.
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  #74  
Old 05-02-2019, 06:47 PM
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Well, I AM concerned about our current "Burn the world down for fun and momentary profit" approach to the environment, and I have also heard some disturbing things about how tariffs are not, in fact, an all-purpose tool leading to guaranteed trade supremacy. But mostly I'm vaguely smelling bridges burning in the distance and wondering what that means for us in the future.

I don't follow international politics well enough to predict specific outcomes, but I am awake enough to be supremely unimpressed by people who claim that being a brain-damaged bull in the international china shop cannot possibly have any negative consequences ever, because reasons.
So, it's a feeling on your part, not backed up by data? Well, that's fine. It's like the feeling many seem to have that things are so much worse today than in the past. They FEEL it's so, so therefore it is.

I watched an interesting video (which I won't bother linking to) the other day that was talking about the Build A Bear Group (or maybe it was the Bilderberg Group). Basically, it was a debunking video of the CT surrounding it. But one guy said something that struck me. Basically, he said that there isn't any big conspiracy...but that what the group actually does is coordinate between the US and Europe. Then he pointed out something interesting...in practical terms, what actually has changed wrt US foreign policy (or European) from Bush I to today? He went down a long list...and, really, the answer was 'not much'. I was skeptical...I mean, we went from Bush I to Clinton, to Bush II to Obama and now to Trump...surly EVERYTHING changed. But the reality is, not much has. Oh, there have been surface things. Politicians yelling or making a big stink about this or that. The US has had a snit with the EU over trade (which has now been mostly resolved, and note didn't last or impact either nearly the same as the China trade war), and the US and NATO over funding (which many NATO countries increased slightly but overall was just a shrug and a meh) but other than that? Not much. Same goes for the US relations with Japan, South Korea, Australia (despite the public snit between leaders), Canada (same) or any of the other core US allies. About the only place I could point to and say our relations have noticeably deteriorated is...Turkey. And there are other forces at work on that one and it's complicated...more complicated than Trump is bad and folks don't like us because of it. Other than that I can't think of any actual evidence of core things moving our allies from us or us from our allies. This DESPITE the fact that Trump is an idiot and doesn't understand any of this stuff...and doesn't want too. But the thing is, Trump isn't king and the Republicans can't just do everything because under the surface are the folks who really do the work...and they will still be there, doing it, when we shake the dust from this idiot from our collective boots. And their counter parts are in every one of our allies, despite the surface governments, and those relations havent' changed just because we have an orange haired idiot at the helm, or because of either party.
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  #75  
Old 05-02-2019, 06:53 PM
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I'm not particularly worried about our standing with western Europe. I remember hearing similar alarmism during the administration of GWB. Leftist European countries like leftist American presidents and dislike conservatives / Republicans. Oh well, IDGAF.
There are around four hundred million people in Western Europe. Are you really that confident that you know better than four hundred million people?
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Old 05-02-2019, 06:54 PM
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There are around four hundred million people in Western Europe. Are you really that confident that you know better than four hundred million people?
Of course he does. That's actually not really controversial. Next question?
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:06 PM
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There are around four hundred million people in Western Europe. Are you really that confident that you know better than four hundred million people?
And a large percentage of them dislike the US? Not dislike Trump (THAT I would believe) but dislike the US? Want their countries to stop doing business with the US? Maybe want their countries to move away from the US politically? I've seen the PEW polls...and, yeah, the US is polling worse under Trump than under Obama. But we aren't polling worse than under Bush II. And most of those polls? We are talking a few hundred people, maybe a thousand responders. It's also unclear, to me, if they are mainly saying they are angry with Trump or with the US, or if they are just angry. It reminds me of how France was polling in the US after they didn't back us in Bush II's war in Iraq. All that stupid ass Freedom Fries! horseshit.

Sorry, but, again, I'm not seeing indications of real, substantial movement of any of our allies away from us nor towards each other or towards the other world superpower, China. I don't see the EU circling the wagons as they would if they were REALLY planning to go it alone and cut the US out or even start pulling away from us and do their own thing. I think right now it's all they can do to keep themselves from flying apart, let alone that they are wanting to become unified or stronger internally. What I DO see is China chipping away at them...and I think they see that as well. Assuming that's the case, do you really think that they or any of our other allies are willing to toss the baby out with the bath water over...Trump?
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  #78  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:36 PM
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The United States can probably recover, but at the moment they look like Britain in the final years of the Empire - they're not only losing their international standing, they seem eager to throw it away.
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Old 05-02-2019, 09:12 PM
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I’ve seen speculation that they just hoped to make Hillary’s expected win as pathetic as possible for her — you know, weakening her mandate by shrinking the margin of victory? Emboldening the opposition she’d face from a GOP majority in the Senate, because (a) they’d be more likely to defer to her following a landslide that may reflect a widespread sentiment, but (b) they’ll maybe just start talking about impeachment on Day One if it looks like she came shockingly close to losing?

Except, well, then came the real shock...
Pretty much spot on, Waldo.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:06 PM
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Sure. What I was attempting to illustrate is that EU opinions of America were similarly low during the Bush administration, and we didn't suffer any particularly lasting harm as a result.
Over four thousand American troops died in Iraq. I think those people had value. You apparently don't.
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Old 05-02-2019, 10:11 PM
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And a large percentage of them dislike the US? Not dislike Trump (THAT I would believe) but dislike the US?
Maybe I'm missing your point but the poll HD was citing was asking Western Europeans for their opinion of the President not of America as a whole. It showed that Western Europeans had a much higher opinion of Obama than they had of Bush or Trump.
  #82  
Old 05-02-2019, 10:24 PM
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Over four thousand American troops died in Iraq. I think those people had value. You apparently don't.
Ahem...from wiki

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Estimates of Iraq War casualties range from 151,000 violent deaths as of June 2006 (per the Iraq Family Health Survey) to 461,000 total deaths as of June 2011 (per PLOS Medicine 2013), over 60% of them violent. Other estimates, which are disputed in the scientific community, such as the 2006 Lancet study and the 2007 Opinion Research Business (ORB) survey put the numbers as high as 655,000 total deaths as of June 2006 (over 90% of them violent) and 1.2 million violent deaths as of August 2007 respectively. Body counts — which underestimate mortality — counted at least 110,600 violent deaths as of April 2009 (Associated Press). The Iraq Body Count project documents 183,249 – 205,785 violent civilian deaths through Feb. 2019
Though I'm sure HD doesn't G any F's about non American unpeople.
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  #83  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:02 AM
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I do wonder one day if you'll ever realize and regret that you're a #3. My gut says no, but people do sometimes change and mature.
This combined with post #45 is not appropriate for this forum. This is a warning for personal insults.

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Last edited by Bone; 05-03-2019 at 12:03 AM.
  #84  
Old 05-03-2019, 06:00 AM
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If Russia did attempt to sway the Presidential Election, what could have been their motivation? Did they all think that Trump would cede Alaska back to Russia? Did they think Hillary would imposes sanctions against Russia?
Putin was worried that Hillary Clinton would succeed in strengthening NATO alliances and pulling Ukraine and other traditionally Eastern Bloc states away from Russia. More specifically, he was worried that Clinton would succeed in leading global efforts to sanction Russia's kleptocratic oligarchs through the enforcement and spread of Magnitsky Act type laws around the world, which would effective limit the oligarchs' ability to stash money away in other countries. A related concern is that American influence could reach the Russian street and lead to an anti-Putin uprising.

Putin's response has been to reassert Russian power and disrupt American influence abroad, but he has also dared to do what other competitors, including China, haven't dared to: he has openly tried to destabilize the United States internally. I mean, one could argue that China has but not to the extent or so brazenly as Russia has; the Chinese have been more subtle. But Putin's attempt to tilt the election was its way of sowing discord, which was really the true goal. Most Russians, like most Americans, were expecting Hillary to win the election. They realistically hoped that they could make it so that Hillary was so politically poisoned that she couldn't accomplish anything, and that Americans would spend more time fighting itself than fighting Russia. When Trump actually won the election, Putin succeeded beyond his wildest dreams.

But understand something: Russian involvement in American politics is far deeper than what has been acknowledged to this point. They clearly formed a trans-Atlantic oligarchal/plutocratic alliance and the Republican party and conservative grassroots organizations are effectively their political partners. We knew that Russian oligarchs didn't like working with Obama and didn't want to work with Hillary Clinton for the same reason, but they assumed they would have to. Particularly over the past decade, the Russian oligarchs, like the American oligarchs, have seen any democratic-type party as a threat to their interests. They have a mutual interest in crushing institutionalized democracy, and that is why their partnership will only grow stronger.
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Old 05-03-2019, 06:44 AM
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Sure. What I was attempting to illustrate is that EU opinions of America were similarly low during the Bush administration, and we didn't suffer any particularly lasting harm as a result.
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Over four thousand American troops died in Iraq. I think those people had value. You apparently don't.
EU opinions of America caused the troop deaths in Iraq? Do you have a theory linking the two?
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:01 AM
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43%. If you're this far off on basic numerical facts, it doesn't bode well for the accuracy of the rest of your post.
If it really is 43%, it doesn't bode well for the future of the nation. If only 1/4 of SenorBeef's excellent post was accurate (and I think 100% is accurate), then there should not be one person in the US who would object to Donald's immediate impeachment, conviction, indictment, trial, conviction, and sentencing to either life in prison or death.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:09 AM
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If you don't mind a claim being off by 8 points, we could just as accurately say: "something like" 51% of the population think he's doing a fine job.
When I said that something like 35% of people in America think he's doing a fine job, I was referring to his hardcore base. There are additionally some Republicans who don't think all the chaos and corruption is so great, but like the tax cut and the economy is doing OK, so they tell pollsters that they approve.

But if you want to make the point that 43% (or 51%) approve of him, that just makes my original point even more disturbing. The fact that he's OK with encouraging a hostile foreign power to fuck with our elections, and 43% of people still approve, is even more outrageous that if it were just 35%.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:12 AM
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Maybe I'm missing your point but the poll HD was citing was asking Western Europeans for their opinion of the President not of America as a whole. It showed that Western Europeans had a much higher opinion of Obama than they had of Bush or Trump.
I didn't actually read his poll. I was referring to polls I've seen from PEW myself. I'm totally un-surprised that Obama had a higher approval rating than Bush or Trump. I'm sure Clinton did too. But those sorts of popularity polls are fairly meaningless when it comes to foreign policy and international relations between allies. It doesn't, in the end, matter if German's dislike Trump and, by extension, have a worse (short term) opinion of the US, just like it doesn't matter of Americans have a (short term) disapproval of France and want to call french fries Freedom Fries! instead. You have to look at the policy level, and at that level things really haven't changed between the US and our allies over many administrations. There are sore spots and sensitive spots, there are some things hit on by politicians wanting to score points with their voters and against another ally, but fundamentally, I don't think anything has changed...nor do I expect it too. Trump has said a lot of shit about NATO, for instance...have we pulled out? Have we dropped any support for it? Are we putting things in place TOO do so? Answer...no. It was all talk. And the issue with their funding spans multiple administrations and multiple parties and almost 2 decades. Clinton brought it up...as did Bush II....as did Obama....as has Trump. Trump has been the most vocal and ridiculous, but it has been a issue for a long time. And yet...the US hasn't really changed it's stance at all.
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  #89  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:17 AM
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If it really is 43%, it doesn't bode well for the future of the nation. If only 1/4 of SenorBeef's excellent post was accurate (and I think 100% is accurate), then there should not be one person in the US who would object to Donald's immediate impeachment, conviction, indictment, trial, conviction, and sentencing to either life in prison or death.
And yet here we are, with a whole bunch of people objecting to "immediate impeachment". Does that mean SenorBeef's post wasn't even 1/4 accurate? Or perhaps your idea of what constitutes an impeachable offense isn't as popular as you'd like it to be?
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:21 AM
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When I said that something like 35% of people in America think he's doing a fine job, I was referring to his hardcore base. There are additionally some Republicans who don't think all the chaos and corruption is so great, but like the tax cut and the economy is doing OK, so they tell pollsters that they approve.

But if you want to make the point that 43% (or 51%) approve of him, that just makes my original point even more disturbing. The fact that he's OK with encouraging a hostile foreign power to fuck with our elections, and 43% of people still approve, is even more outrageous that if it were just 35%.
But that's the thing: many of his supporters probably don't view Russia as a hostile foreign nation; they view Russia as its own country with its own interests, just like we're our own country with our own interests. But where Trump is concerned, they see Putin as..."helping" America -- their America.

Perhaps the deeper, underlying problem here is that progressives and conservatives disagree to the point of toxicity over what America really is, and how to define it, and what our true interests really are as a country.

I wouldn't expect conservatives to see it any other way than they have for that reason - Putin's Russia is their friend, not their enemy. Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and liberals are their real enemies, afflicting the country like a pestilence. Many of these people will eventually find out the hard way that once their fortunes turn for the worst, they will either be shameless exploited, or they will become the enemy just like the liberals are now. Like most oligarchal factions, they rely on pacification and compliance of the ignorant masses of idiots who think they have a lot in common.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:22 AM
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And yet here we are, with a whole bunch of people objecting to "immediate impeachment". Does that mean SenorBeef's post wasn't even 1/4 accurate? Or perhaps your idea of what constitutes an impeachable offense isn't as popular as you'd like it to be?
What I'm saying is that I think SenorBeef's posts are 100% accurate. But even if only 1/4 of it was true, then even that should be enough to convince every single American that Donald has no business being in the White House and indeed should be imprisoned. I think the only legitimate debate about DJT should be whether he deserves death or life in prison.
  #92  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
And yet here we are, with a whole bunch of people objecting to "immediate impeachment". Does that mean SenorBeef's post wasn't even 1/4 accurate? Or perhaps your idea of what constitutes an impeachable offense isn't as popular as you'd like it to be?
I think it's that there is a significant number of Americans (including, apparently, a significant number of people in Congress) who both believe that:
- Trump has committed one or more impeachable offenses
- actually conducting impeachment proceedings are somewhere between a quixotic endeavor (since it's highly unlikely that the Senate would convict him) and just a year-long red-meat rallying cry for Trump to use to mobilize his base

The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 05-03-2019 at 09:23 AM.
  #93  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:29 AM
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I think it's that there is a significant number of Americans (including, apparently, a significant number of people in Congress) who both believe that:
- Trump has committed one or more impeachable offenses
- actually conducting impeachment proceedings are somewhere between a quixotic endeavor (since it's highly unlikely that the Senate would convict him) and just a year-long red-meat rallying cry for Trump to use to mobilize his base

The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive.
Sure. I wouldn't be surprised if this is Nancy Pelosi's belief about things, to offer one prominent example.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:32 AM
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... Perhaps the deeper, underlying problem here is that progressives and conservatives disagree to the point of toxicity over what America really is, and how to define it, and what our true interests really are as a country. ...
I think there's a lot of truth to this.
  #95  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
And yet here we are, with a whole bunch of people objecting to "immediate impeachment". Does that mean SenorBeef's post wasn't even 1/4 accurate? Or perhaps your idea of what constitutes an impeachable offense isn't as popular as you'd like it to be?
Well, I think there are serious flaws in Seniorbeef's post, though obviously many in this thread loved it. That said, I don't think the fact that Trump hasn't (yet) been impeached or impeachment hasn't (yet) been started doesn't mean that a lot of people don't think it should. Right now, I don't think there is sufficient evidence to make the Democratic establishment commit to all of the pain that pulling the trigger on such an action would entail. There might never be. That doesn't mean that Trump is innocent though, it simply means that the political costs are judged too high by those making the call. With the 2020 election on the line, it might be the smart move to focus on that.
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  #96  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:42 AM
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Well, I think there are serious flaws in Seniorbeef's post, though obviously many in this thread loved it. That said, I don't think the fact that Trump hasn't (yet) been impeached or impeachment hasn't (yet) been started doesn't mean that a lot of people don't think it should. Right now, I don't think there is sufficient evidence to make the Democratic establishment commit to all of the pain that pulling the trigger on such an action would entail. There might never be. That doesn't mean that Trump is innocent though, it simply means that the political costs are judged too high by those making the call. With the 2020 election on the line, it might be the smart move to focus on that.
Sure, but that illustrates perfectly that impeachment is just a political machination, having very little to do with the actual guilt or innocence of the person being impeached. It would be an exercise of political power, not a fact-finding effort.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:45 AM
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I think there's a lot of truth to this.
What about the rest of it, HD?
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:49 AM
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Sure, but that illustrates perfectly that impeachment is just a political machination, having very little to do with the actual guilt or innocence of the person being impeached. It would be an exercise of political power, not a fact-finding effort.
It doesn't show anything of the sort, in and of itself. Often prosecutors will not press charges because there is insufficient data or evidence to convict...this doesn't mean that the person under suspicion is not guilty, however.

Impeachment, of course, IS a political process. And it is done in the context of the political realities of the system we use. Currently, there doesn't seem to be sufficient evidence for the Democratic establishment to feel confident they could pull the trigger on impeachment and not have it blow back on them with respect to the 2020 election. Also, it would pretty obviously detract from that election. So, a call seems to have been made to wait and see if anything else comes up that will make it more viable to do so, of if the focus should be on the 2020 election and getting rid of Trump through the process.
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  #99  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:52 AM
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Sure, but that illustrates perfectly that impeachment is just a political machination, having very little to do with the actual guilt or innocence of the person being impeached. It would be an exercise of political power, not a fact-finding effort.
So if there's authentic, videotaped evidence of Trump raping and murdering someone and the congress decides that it's time to impeach him, impeachment in such a case is nothing more than a political machination?

FTR, I'm not saying that there is such evidence or that even as odious as Trump he is that he's capable of such a crime - just a hypothetical.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:53 AM
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What about the rest of it, HD?
I don't think the other two paragraphs got much right, but you are obviously entitled to your own opinion on this or any other matter.
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