Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:24 PM
eschereal's Avatar
eschereal is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Frogstar World B
Posts: 16,107

my odd notion: negative poll tax


Given that America has about the very worst voter turnout in the world (or so, maybe not, but it is quite bad), what could be done to correct that?

Obviously, it is unrealistic to imagine mandatory voting, because, you know, freedom. So how about: if you are registered to vote and you fail to participate, you pay a fee for sitting it out. I mean, we went to all the trouble to set up and run this election, we saved a place for you at the table and you just brushed us off – we think you owe us a consideration.

Would this increase participation, or would it discourage registration? (If registration is tightly linked to getting a DL/ID, most people would not be able to avoid it.)
  #2  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:36 PM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 5,649
Probably a better way to manage it would be a tax credit for voting, that way you wouldn't face the wrath of the no taxes ever community. You probably want to make it just enough to off set the inconvenience of voting but not enough to make it an actual incentive. People who have to be forced or bribed to vote really aren't sort of people you want going to the polls. A large percentage of them will just vote for the first name on the ballot, making the ordering of the names one of the prime factors in who wins the election.
  #3  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:38 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is offline
You mean he's STILL here?
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 25,723
My freedom to vote for anyone without consequence includes my freedom to not vote for anyone without consequence.
  #4  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:40 PM
eschereal's Avatar
eschereal is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Frogstar World B
Posts: 16,107
To accommodate kunilou, ballots will be required to include an entry for “none” in every race.

Last edited by eschereal; 05-02-2019 at 08:40 PM.
  #5  
Old 05-02-2019, 08:52 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 7,803
I think that most people who don't vote believe that politics is a dirty fucking game that doesn't actually impact their lives all that much, whichever side wins. Change that. Easy, huh?
  #6  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:03 PM
Ludovic is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: America's Wing
Posts: 29,660
I would think that it would be better to first work on making registration and voting easier, proposals as to how to do so being in abundance. If it is difficult to do so you will get people fined because the system was working against them.

A first good step would be to stop actively trying to reduce the number of people who vote.
  #7  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:19 PM
eschereal's Avatar
eschereal is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Frogstar World B
Posts: 16,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludovic View Post
I would think that it would be better to first work on making registration and voting easier, proposals as to how to do so being in abundance. If it is difficult to do so you will get people fined because the system was working against them.
No, because only people registered to vote would incur a fee for not voting. In my state, getting/renewing your driver's license or state ID card can automatically register you to vote, which ought to be the national standard, I think.
  #8  
Old 05-02-2019, 09:32 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is offline
You mean he's STILL here?
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 25,723
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
To accommodate kunilou, ballots will be required to include an entry for “none” in every race.
Okay, so 98% of eligible voters show up, and 40% of them mark "none." What do we do now? Void the election, require that new candidates file and do the whole thing over again?

Or, do we wring our hands and complain that 40% of the American people don't even care enough to check a box? That's what we're doing already.

Quote:
No, because only people registered to vote would incur a fee for not voting. In my state, getting/renewing your driver's license or state ID card can automatically register you to vote, which ought to be the national standard, I think.
Wait, are you saying that voter registration should be universal and automatic -at least for anyone who wants to drive a car, cash a check, or buy liquor - and anyone who doesn't show up to vote (I guess you'd accept a doctor's note) should be fined? How is that different from mandatory voting?
  #9  
Old 05-02-2019, 10:14 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 17,234
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
Okay, so 98% of eligible voters show up, and 40% of them mark "none." What do we do now? Void the election, require that new candidates file and do the whole thing over again?
They probably aren't going to do that though. Most people still have some opinion even if they don't vote, no matter how ill informed.

And if they did? There's different ways they could handle it. A quick Google shows that Nevada has a "none of the above" on ballots. Their policy? Ignore it:
Nevada Democrats Chose 'None of These Candidates' in Primary
  #10  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:28 AM
PatrickLondon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: London
Posts: 3,270
OP is reinventing the wheel:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_voting
  #11  
Old 05-03-2019, 02:42 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludovic View Post
A first good step would be to stop actively trying to reduce the number of people who vote.
Definitely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
My freedom to vote for anyone without consequence includes my freedom to not vote for anyone without consequence.
Countries with mandatory voting provide some 'None' or 'Decline to Vote' option. But you have to appear and explicitly exercise that option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
To accommodate kunilou, ballots will be required to include an entry for “none” in every race.
Yes ... Ninja'ed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
Okay, so 98% of eligible voters show up, and 40% of them mark "none."
Is that what you think would happen? Would it be a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
Or, do we wring our hands and complain that 40% of the American people don't even care enough to check a box? That's what we're doing already.
No it isn't.
  #12  
Old 05-03-2019, 07:11 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 38,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
In my state, getting/renewing your driver's license or state ID card can automatically register you to vote, which ought to be the national standard, I think.
Wouldn't this run into the same problem that Democrats claim will happen with the census question? Non-citizens aren't allowed to vote, so they would have to say they are not a citizen when they get the DL or ID card, and therefore be afraid they will get deported. Even more than with the census question - ID cards and driver's licenses are explicitly linked to a person's name, and are going to be shared with other agencies of the government so the government can be sure they voted.

Regards,
Shodan
  #13  
Old 05-03-2019, 07:47 AM
Shoeless's Avatar
Shoeless is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: The Sunflower State
Posts: 6,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
My freedom to vote for anyone without consequence includes my freedom to not vote for anyone without consequence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
To accommodate kunilou, ballots will be required to include an entry for “none” in every race.
I worked with a guy many years ago who went to the polls on voting day, got his ballot, and immediately walked to the other end of the table and turned it in, blank. It really confused the poor old lady working at the polling place, who kept trying to explain to him that he needed to go to one of the voting booths first to fill it out, while he kept trying to explain to her that he knew what he was doing.

What they need to do is move Election Day from Tuesday to Sunday, so that (many) people don't need to try to arrange time off of work to go vote. Plus, they could set up polling places in or near churches so that people can hit the polls before or after church. But of course we all know that anything that improves voter turnout is going to get snuffed by the GOP, because they know they can't win an election that isn't rigged somehow.
  #14  
Old 05-03-2019, 07:48 AM
elbows is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 14,235
If you don’t vote, every municipal fee costs an extra 2-5$. Marriage license, building permit, parking ticket, etc, etc. If you want to push your civic responsibility onto the rest of us you may, but, like all outsourcing it comes with a fee.

Participate in your democracy or pay for the privilege of us doing it for you.
  #15  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:39 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,967
many states have early voting, some let you vote for a month before election day. Others have voting by mail. I was surprised that early voting is not nationwide, it should be. ( It's in 33 states now. NY state added it this year. )
  #16  
Old 05-03-2019, 09:52 AM
thorny locust is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
What they need to do is move Election Day from Tuesday to Sunday, so that (many) people don't need to try to arrange time off of work to go vote. Plus, they could set up polling places in or near churches so that people can hit the polls before or after church. But of course we all know that anything that improves voter turnout is going to get snuffed by the GOP, because they know they can't win an election that isn't rigged somehow.
Actually, the GOP might go for that one. It would increase voting rates by Christians who go to church, and might well decrease them for everybody else.
  #17  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:10 AM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 7,803
My polling place is set up in a church side-room. I always thought it a little strange, but it doesn't stop me from voting. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.
  #18  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:28 AM
Joey P is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 28,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
What they need to do is move Election Day from Tuesday to Sunday, so that (many) people don't need to try to arrange time off of work to go vote. Plus, they could set up polling places in or near churches so that people can hit the polls before or after church. But of course we all know that anything that improves voter turnout is going to get snuffed by the GOP, because they know they can't win an election that isn't rigged somehow.
I'd wager a guess that the GOP would be okay with having voting booths outside of a church and working before and after Sunday mass. In general, the church goers are the ones they want at the polls. Try doing the same thing, but setting up a polling station outside a planned parenthood/free clinic and see how the GOP reacts.

To get back to the OP, I can't see any way in which forcing people to vote (even if it's a fine for not doing it or a credit for doing it) would help. The people that aren't planning to vote, if forced, are going to do it just to say they've done it without putting any real thought into it.
Let the people that put some effort into their decision go to the polls and the people that don't care can sit out.

And, IMO, if you really want to increase voter turnout, make a bigger deal about early and absentee voting. I've got zero interest in standing in line for hours and I'm guessing others feel the same way. A few election cycles ago, I found out that I can stop in at my city hall pretty much any time in the weeks leading up to the election, vote and be back in my car 90 seconds later. Even better when I learned they'll mail be a ballot and I can fill it out at home and mail it back in.
At the moment, I'm set up so that they'll automatically mail me a ballot for every election.
The funny thing is, when I first learned about absentee voting, it was worded in such a way as to appear to only be used for people in the military, on vacation or disabled/housebound. Upon closer inspection of the small print, anyone can get an absentee ballot, for any reason or no reason at all.
  #19  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:32 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,967
most places now don't even ask for a reason for absentee voting. here in NC the early voting is called one stop absentee voting.
  #20  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:36 AM
Joey P is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 28,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
most places now don't even ask for a reason for absentee voting. here in NC the early voting is called one stop absentee voting.
They don't here [Wisconsin] either. IIRC, you have to prove that you're disabled to have them automatically send ballots to you forever, but for an upcoming election or all elections for the rest of the year, they don't ask.
I just recall being surprised that anyone can vote absentee given how the city (not the state) worded it. In fact, when I mention to people that I do it, they're usually surprised for the same reason I was.
  #21  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:37 AM
TimeWinder is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Albany/Corvallis, OR
Posts: 4,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Wouldn't this run into the same problem that Democrats claim will happen with the census question? Non-citizens aren't allowed to vote, so they would have to say they are not a citizen when they get the DL or ID card, and therefore be afraid they will get deported.
Oregon does the automatic registration, and no such question appears (or didn't the last time I signed up for an Oregon Driver's License), although the person applying can choose to opt out without giving a reason (and in any case Oregon is a Sanctuary State, so the problem wouldn't arise, regardless.) As with all states, checks against eligibility are done elsewhere in the process.

Last edited by TimeWinder; 05-03-2019 at 10:38 AM.
  #22  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:39 AM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 14,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
My polling place is set up in a church side-room. I always thought it a little strange, but it doesn't stop me from voting. I can't speak for anyone else, of course.
Mine has been in a multi-purpose room at a Catholic grade school for the past decade or so. Before that, it was, in fact, in the garage in someone's home. Yay, Cook County!
  #23  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:41 AM
ENugent is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 3,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
The funny thing is, when I first learned about absentee voting, it was worded in such a way as to appear to only be used for people in the military, on vacation or disabled/housebound. Upon closer inspection of the small print, anyone can get an absentee ballot, for any reason or no reason at all.
Here in Washington state, all voting is by mail - they don't even have polling places open.
__________________
This post is not intended to provide reliable legal advice, nor is any other post by me in this or any other thread. I am not your lawyer and you are not my client. Odds are good that I'm not even licensed in your jurisdiction. If you follow what you think is advice in this post and get screwed, don't come crying to me.
  #24  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:47 AM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 7,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Mine has been in a multi-purpose room at a Catholic grade school for the past decade or so. Before that, it was, in fact, in the garage in someone's home. Yay, Cook County!
Ha-ha! I used to vote house garage in Will Co. (Joliet).
  #25  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:52 AM
Oakminster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Surefall Glade, Antonica
Posts: 19,033
Horrible idea. Frankly, artificially increased voter participation is not a good thing. People that don't care enough to vote of their own volition are likely low information voters that will vote for whoever is favored by their church/social group/people that drive them to the polls.

Last edited by Oakminster; 05-03-2019 at 10:53 AM.
  #26  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:53 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 38,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimeWinder View Post
Oregon does the automatic registration, and no such question appears (or didn't the last time I signed up for an Oregon Driver's License), although the person applying can choose to opt out without giving a reason (and in any case Oregon is a Sanctuary State, so the problem wouldn't arise, regardless.) As with all states, checks against eligibility are done elsewhere in the process.
Do you mean automatically registering people to vote? How do they check if you are a citizen and therefore eligible to vote?

Regards,
Shodan
  #27  
Old 05-03-2019, 10:59 AM
TimeWinder is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Albany/Corvallis, OR
Posts: 4,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Do you mean automatically registering people to vote? How do they check if you are a citizen and therefore eligible to vote?
I assume the same way every other state does. I've registered to vote in states with and without automatic registration, and I've never been asked to present a birth certificate or other proof of my citizenship.

Last edited by TimeWinder; 05-03-2019 at 11:01 AM.
  #28  
Old 05-03-2019, 11:01 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,122
There are serious objections to voting by mail. In some countries, absentee voting is permitted only under certain circumstances, and then, for some countries, must be done at a polling station rather than by mail. @ European Dopers — Can an EU citizen request a mail-in ballot without showing good cause?

The reason why voting by mail is undemocratic is that it potentially violates the secrecy of the ballot. Voters may now sell their votes, since they have a way to prove how they voted. An abused wife can now be obligated to vote as instructed by her bullying husband. (Even gentle pressure might affect a vote.) Where I live, mail-in ballots would immediately turn elections into complete mockeries.

I've mentioned this before at SDMB, but Zero Dopers see a problem with mail-in ballots ("they're so convenient"). Perhaps the Land of Liberty needn't worry about vote buying or abusive spouses. ... Or perhaps U.S.A. democracy is now so hopelessly flawed that these added worries are just a drop in the bucket.

Last edited by septimus; 05-03-2019 at 11:04 AM.
  #29  
Old 05-03-2019, 11:12 AM
Jasmine's Avatar
Jasmine is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,904
Rather than punishment, how about a reward? If someone registers and then votes, they get set deduction on their income tax like, say, a thousand dollar deduction. That's a big incentive.
  #30  
Old 05-03-2019, 11:59 AM
thorny locust is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
My polling place is set up in a church side-room. I always thought it a little strange, but it doesn't stop me from voting.
It wouldn't stop me, either. But a) I'm in a position to determine for myself how I lay out my day and, to some extent, my week; and I have a car b) it's just about equally as convenient (or inconvenient) for me to get to any of the churches in the nearby village as it is for me to get to the village hall, where I actually do vote c) I don't have any religious or philosophical objections to going into a church building d) I've had occasion to do so for other reasons often enough in my life that I'm reasonably comfortable in churches e) my experience with the local churches is that I can go into them for a secular purpose and expect to not be harassed by proselytizers. One or more of those things are problems for other people.

It would be pretty annoying to me to have the voting be on a Sunday, because it would mean that I couldn't combine voting with some of the other errands I usually do on the same town trip. It saves me gas, wear and tear on the car, and significant time to combine errands. But if I have to go into town an extra day, again, I'm in a position in which I can do that. Not everybody is.

And, certainly, setting up the voting booths right smack next to the church services on the day when the church is having services is going to make it massively easier for the churchgoers to vote: because they're going to be there anyway, while other people have no reason to be in that location and may have any of multiple reasons not to.

(New York State, by the way, allows absentee ballots only for limited reasons. This year will be the first one that early voting is possible; but there'll only be one location in the county open for this -- that has to do, not with deliberate voter suppression, but with costs; no funding is provided for the cost of keeping voting stations open, the localities have to come up with it, and this is a poor area. We do, at least, have reasonably long hours for the polls to be open, so anyone who works near their polling place is likely to be able to vote before or after work even if their job has unusual hours, and even people who work an hour's drive away have some chance to get there.)

-- Declaring Election Day a holiday is from some angles tempting. But bear in mind that in the USA such a declaration would only be binding on government employers; and it's become extremely common for private businesses to take federal and/or state holidays as an opportunity to hold sales, with the result that not only don't they close, but they may require employees to work extra hours.
  #31  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:19 PM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
There are serious objections to voting by mail. In some countries, absentee voting is permitted only under certain circumstances, and then, for some countries, must be done at a polling station rather than by mail. @ European Dopers — Can an EU citizen request a mail-in ballot without showing good cause?

The reason why voting by mail is undemocratic is that it potentially violates the secrecy of the ballot. Voters may now sell their votes, since they have a way to prove how they voted. An abused wife can now be obligated to vote as instructed by her bullying husband. (Even gentle pressure might affect a vote.) Where I live, mail-in ballots would immediately turn elections into complete mockeries.

I've mentioned this before at SDMB, but Zero Dopers see a problem with mail-in ballots ("they're so convenient"). Perhaps the Land of Liberty needn't worry about vote buying or abusive spouses. ... Or perhaps U.S.A. democracy is now so hopelessly flawed that these added worries are just a drop in the bucket.
Those are good points. How one votes should be as secret and free from coercion as possible.

Concerning paying people to vote? That’s a no from me. If people aren’t serious enough about self government to get needed documents and take a bit of time to vote I don’t need to hear their voice. That said, I wouldn’t be opposed to making voting easier and more accessible. But I do expect some effort from the electorate.
  #32  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:44 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
... That said, I wouldn’t be opposed to making voting easier and more accessible. But I do expect some effort from the electorate.
Really? How about
  • The 74 year-old woman in Pennsylvania who has been voting for decades, but is no longer able to vote. Her birth certificate contains a misspelling so she can't get photo ID. After she and her grandson spend two days and two tanks of gasoline trying to fix this, she's told to try again next week.
  • John J. Brown, a resident of South Carolina who is turned away on Election Day, because he might be the John J. Brown registered in Kansas, and be trying to vote twice. "Should'a checked your mail, boy."
  • A student in Texas who is turned away because her government-university issued student ID isn't valid for voting, though gun permits are valid for voting.
  • Voters at an urban precinct in Ohio who have to wait in queue for hours to use a voting machine, while suburban voters have no wait.
  • Et cetera.
In previous threads you have sided with the Republican Party, IIRC. Are you now renouncing that allegiance? Suppressing the votes mentioned above is the absolutely central theme of their party platform.
  #33  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:45 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 7,803
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
...
And, certainly, setting up the voting booths right smack next to the church services on the day when the church is having services is going to make it massively easier for the churchgoers to vote: because they're going to be there anyway, while other people have no reason to be in that location and may have any of multiple reasons not to.
...
For what it's worth, the church where I vote is completely empty (hell, it's Tuesday) except for the voting. I would like to think that there is some regulation regarding church/state separation that further demands such a lack of religious activity. I don't know, but I would like to think so.
  #34  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:49 PM
Joey P is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 28,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Really? How about
  • The 74 year-old woman in Pennsylvania who has been voting for decades, but is no longer able to vote. Her birth certificate contains a misspelling so she can't get photo ID. After she and her grandson spend two days and two tanks of gasoline trying to fix this, she's told to try again next week.
  • John J. Brown, a resident of South Carolina who is turned away on Election Day, because he might be the John J. Brown registered in Kansas, and be trying to vote twice. "Should'a checked your mail, boy."
  • A student in Texas who is turned away because her government-university issued student ID isn't valid for voting, though gun permits are valid for voting.
  • Voters at an urban precinct in Ohio who have to wait in queue for hours to use a voting machine, while suburban voters have no wait.
  • Et cetera.
In previous threads you have sided with the Republican Party, IIRC. Are you now renouncing that allegiance? Suppressing the votes mentioned above is the absolutely central theme of their party platform.
Which of those situations would be fixed by handing a thousand dollars to everyone that shows up to vote? You cut off that part of octopus' quote.

Last edited by Joey P; 05-03-2019 at 12:50 PM.
  #35  
Old 05-03-2019, 12:56 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
Which of those situations would be fixed by handing a thousand dollars to everyone that shows up to vote? You cut off that part of octopus' quote.
Do the people who queued up for hours in Ohio seem like they need a cash incentive to vote?

And since when, in responding to a post that makes two unrelated points, A and B, need I quote and respond to A when it is only B that I found of interest?
  #36  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:16 PM
Ulfreida is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pangolandia
Posts: 3,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Horrible idea. Frankly, artificially increased voter participation is not a good thing. People that don't care enough to vote of their own volition are likely low information voters that will vote for whoever is favored by their church/social group/people that drive them to the polls.
I utterly disagree. It isn't "artificial' to make voting a whole lot more convenient. The only advantage in making voting difficult (like it is now) is so the most privileged are the most likely to vote, having the time, the vehicle, the ID, and all the other hoops you must jump through. This is why the right wing always likes making voting more difficult, to ensure that poor people won't be able to vote.

If you think high-information voters don't vote for whomever their peer group votes for, you're ... misinformed.
  #37  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:35 PM
Joey P is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 28,514
Quote:
And since when, in responding to a post that makes two unrelated points, A and B, need I quote and respond to A when it is only B that I found of interest?
That's not what happened.
In your post, you quoted octopus saying "... That said, I wouldn’t be opposed to making voting easier and more accessible. But I do expect some effort from the electorate."
But, with what said? If you keep 'that said', in context, the 'that' is "Concerning paying people to vote? That’s a no from me. "
Those weren't two individual points, it was one big point that you stripped a single soundbyte type chunk of to use on it's own and made it a lot easier to knock down.
  #38  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:40 PM
Oakminster is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Surefall Glade, Antonica
Posts: 19,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
I utterly disagree. It isn't "artificial' to make voting a whole lot more convenient. The only advantage in making voting difficult (like it is now) is so the most privileged are the most likely to vote, having the time, the vehicle, the ID, and all the other hoops you must jump through. This is why the right wing always likes making voting more difficult, to ensure that poor people won't be able to vote.

If you think high-information voters don't vote for whomever their peer group votes for, you're ... misinformed.
This is America. You have an absolute right to disagree.
  #39  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:45 PM
That Don Guy is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,473
Quote:
Originally Posted by kunilou View Post
My freedom to vote for anyone without consequence includes my freedom to not vote for anyone without consequence.
I am a firm believer in mandatory voting if the option, "I do not choose to vote for anyone," is included. I have no problem with people not wishing to vote; what I have a problem with is not knowing the difference between those not voting because they don't care and those not voting because, for one reason or another, they are unable.
  #40  
Old 05-03-2019, 01:49 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
That's not what happened.
In your post, you quoted octopus saying "... That said, I wouldn’t be opposed to making voting easier and more accessible. But I do expect some effort from the electorate."
But, with what said? If you keep 'that said', in context, the 'that' is "Concerning paying people to vote? That’s a no from me. "
Those weren't two individual points, it was one big point that you stripped a single soundbyte type chunk of to use on it's own and made it a lot easier to knock down.
Fine. I hereby ask the Mods to restore the portion of Octopus' post I snipped. That will only strengthen my point.
John J. Brown, a resident of South Carolina who is turned away on Election Day, because he might be the John J. Brown registered in Kansas, and be trying to vote twice. "Should'a checked your mail, boy."
Pretending that John J. Brown is a duplicate name is the exact opposite of making it easy to vote. Did Mr. Brown make inadequate effort to vote? Should he have applied for a legal name change to Algonkwin Z. Aberzygyzzy, hoping that wouldn't be duplicated?
  #41  
Old 05-03-2019, 03:01 PM
eschereal's Avatar
eschereal is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Frogstar World B
Posts: 16,107
I seem to remember a song about John Brown.
  #42  
Old 05-03-2019, 05:05 PM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 8,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Really? How about
  • The 74 year-old woman in Pennsylvania who has been voting for decades, but is no longer able to vote. Her birth certificate contains a misspelling so she can't get photo ID. After she and her grandson spend two days and two tanks of gasoline trying to fix this, she's told to try again next week.
  • John J. Brown, a resident of South Carolina who is turned away on Election Day, because he might be the John J. Brown registered in Kansas, and be trying to vote twice. "Should'a checked your mail, boy."
  • A student in Texas who is turned away because her government-university issued student ID isn't valid for voting, though gun permits are valid for voting.
  • Voters at an urban precinct in Ohio who have to wait in queue for hours to use a voting machine, while suburban voters have no wait.
  • Et cetera.
In previous threads you have sided with the Republican Party, IIRC. Are you now renouncing that allegiance? Suppressing the votes mentioned above is the absolutely central theme of their party platform.
I am not in 100% agreement with any party or person. Not even myself some days.
  #43  
Old 05-03-2019, 06:49 PM
I Love Me, Vol. I's Avatar
I Love Me, Vol. I is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: SF
Posts: 4,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
Rather than punishment, how about a reward? If someone registers and then votes, they get set deduction on their income tax like, say, a thousand dollar deduction. That's a big incentive.
Problem: wealthy people don't need the money. How ya gonna get the GOPies on board?
  #44  
Old 05-04-2019, 03:23 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,122
BTW, one "feature" of the Kansas Crosscheck Voter Suppression Program is that Blacks tend to have common surnames. 38% (514,000) of the Joneses in the U.S. Census are black, as are 34% (477,000) of the Browns, and a whopping 53% (353,000) of the Jacksons. Thus the very algorithm that senses spurious 'duplicates' also zeros in on blacks. This malicious software also does a good job of screwing Asians, who also tend to vote Democratic —There are over a million Americans, almost all of them Asian, with one of the seven surnames: Nguyen, Kim, Patel, Tran, Chen, Wong, Yang.

As I mentioned, voter suppression, like the pernicious Crosscheck system, to tilt the electorate and make it easier to steal from the public has become the central tenet of the Republican Party. I'd like to hear stronger denunciations than "I am not in 100% agreement" with the GOP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschereal View Post
I seem to remember a song about John Brown.
Do you mean this John Brown ? I'm proud of my collateral descent from this heroic martyr, and to think that some of the black Browns adopted a surname to commemorate him. However that prize goes to Washington: 90% (147,000) of the Washingtons in the U.S. Census are black!

TL;DR: Yes, making it easier to vote is a good idea. But let's first concentrate on ridding ourselves of the deliberate efforts by the Republican Party to make it much harder to vote.
  #45  
Old 05-04-2019, 12:27 PM
Anny Middon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
What they need to do is move Election Day from Tuesday to Sunday, so that (many) people don't need to try to arrange time off of work to go vote. Plus, they could set up polling places in or near churches so that people can hit the polls before or after church. But of course we all know that anything that improves voter turnout is going to get snuffed by the GOP, because they know they can't win an election that isn't rigged somehow.
I worked as an election judge the last two elections. The polling place I was assigned to was a church. We were pretty slow at the election in April and I spent a few minutes talking to the pastor of the church.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't agree to be a polling place on a Sunday. They are happy to provide their facilities on a Tuesday even though it's kind of a hassle for them -- they see it as supporting their community. But on Sundays they need that space for their regular church activities.

My own idea, which unfortunately is virtually impossible to enforce, is to make voting a requirement for complaining about what your government is doing. You want to publicly express your opinion about the invasion of whatever country, or how your taxes are used, or your town's building codes, or whatever, then show that you voted. If you can't, then STFU.
  #46  
Old 05-05-2019, 06:21 AM
UltraVires is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,215
I've never understood this push for compulsory voting. If you do not care enough to vote, forcing you to vote will not make you more informed on the issues and elect better candidates. Frustrated people who are forced to vote will either turn in blank ballots, draw little rectangle designs on the bubble forms or vote for the convicted felon joke candidate.

Further, rights and freedoms are both positive and negative. The First Amendment doesn't mandate that I speak, go to church, or print something. The Second does not require I own a gun. The Fourth doesn't prevent me from allowing a search of my house. The Fifth doesn't prevent me from waiving a right to indictment and the Sixth doesn't prevent me from waiving a jury trial or representing myself.

If I qualify for food stamps, I don't have to sign up for them, nor do I have to play at the public park the city allows me to use.

I doubt it would be Constitutional as it is forced servitude merely for living and being of voting age. Unlike the draft and jury service, it has no deeply rooted common law tradition.
  #47  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:17 AM
thorny locust is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 212
It occurs to me that there's a problem with Sunday (or Saturday) voting, even if set up in secular locations: members of some religious groups won't do secular business on the Sabbath. This covers a lot less of the population than it used to; but it still seems to me unfair, and might well be unconstitutional, to prevent these people from voting.
  #48  
Old 05-05-2019, 09:52 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 82,724
So make "Voting Day" Saturday and Sunday. Even aside from those folks with a religious objection, that'd be good practice anyway, to make it more accessible to people who have other scheduling conflicts with one of those days.
  #49  
Old 05-05-2019, 10:14 AM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 17,234
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I've never understood this push for compulsory voting. If you do not care enough to vote, forcing you to vote will not make you more informed on the issues and elect better candidates. Frustrated people who are forced to vote will either turn in blank ballots, draw little rectangle designs on the bubble forms or vote for the convicted felon joke candidate.
You don't have to guess. There's a modern western country, Australia, that has compulsory voting. AFAIK, they do have a couple extra joke parties but they aren't getting 30-40% spoiled ballots and convicted felon votes.
  #50  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:07 PM
penultima thule is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 2,850
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakminster View Post
Horrible idea. Frankly, artificially increased voter participation is not a good thing. People that don't care enough to vote of their own volition are likely low information voters that will vote for whoever is favored by their church/social group/people that drive them to the polls.
Pick your poison, artificially increased voter participation vs artificially decreased voter participation.

Would you accept the notion that the former is a damm sight better on any number of levels than the second?

'Cause I'm not certain there is any basis for the claim that the "low information voter" will cast less considered ballots than those cast by the perpetually rusted on, "will always vote the way my granddaddy voted" demographic.

Mandatory enrolment and voting as conducted on this side of the puddle works because exhaustive efforts are made to ensure it is as easy as practical to do so.
You can vote at any polling booth in your home state. You can vote absentee at any polling in the country. The biggest single polling booth operating is the Australian embassy in London.

From my patch in Sydney suburbia there are four polling stations within a 5 minute walk.

If you are in hospital, a mobile polling station goes through the wards etc.

You can vote early either in person or by post if on election day you:
•are outside the electorate where you are enrolled to vote
•are more than 8km from a polling place
•are travelling
•are unable to leave your workplace to vote
•are seriously ill, infirm or due to give birth shortly (or caring for someone who is)
•are a patient in hospital and can't vote at the hospital
•have religious beliefs that prevent you from attending a polling place
•are in prison serving a sentence of less than three years or otherwise detained
•are a silent elector
•have a reasonable fear for your safety.


Early voting centres operate from a month prior to a State or Federal election. Over 10% of the national electorate will use the option. Add in the postal votes and absentee votes and in some electorates a greater proportion of Australians vote pre-poll than might be expected to vote in the US mid-terms.

Last edited by penultima thule; 05-06-2019 at 11:11 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017