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Old 05-04-2019, 08:30 PM
Barack Obama is offline
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Why is prostitution illegal?


Does anyone actually think prostitution should be criminalized? Chances are if you're prostituting yourself you have other issues such as drug abuse or financial issues. I believe it was Sweden or maybe Switzerland that had an heroin epidemic, and prostitution was skyrocketing, then after they introduced measures to weed people off herion, prostitution plummeted. They didn't start targeting prostitutes, they fixed the core reason why there was so many prostitutes.

So why in America, do we criminalize prostitution? I believe it should be a human right to do whatever you want with your body, including self harm, prostitution, excessive drug use, whatever it is thats your right and nobody especially a government should be sending armed people to come kill you because you sucked some cops dick behind a dumpster and you resist arrest. Theres plenty of right wingers in America so why haven't we legalized prostitution yet? I can go pay a women to fuck me if I video tape it and post it on the internet, but I can't pay a women to suck my dick in a dirty motel at 3am.
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Old 05-04-2019, 08:52 PM
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We seem to talk about this every other month.
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Old 05-04-2019, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
We seem to talk about this every other month.
Glad to hear that. Prostitution is one of those issues that isn't really going to win you a ton of voters so nobody is really running on it. So it's never going to be legalized unless we talk about it more often.
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:03 PM
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It's illegal because there are laws against it. See? Simple answer.

Why are there laws against it? Because some people are really bothered by prostitution. So they push for prohibiting it. There are probably many people who would like prostitution to be legal but they're not pushing as hard as the anti-prostitution people push. In a democracy, the legislature listens to the greatest numbers who speak the loudest.

Why are these laws allowed to stand? Because there are no grounds to overturn them. Prostitution is not protected by the Constitution. Our legal system allows the government to enact laws to enforce public morality.

On a side note, you can't get around most prostitution laws by videotaping it. In most places, paying somebody to have sex with you is illegal, even if it's being done for a movie. But having sex in order to make a movie is not considered to be prostitution in California and New Hampshire (due to court rulings in those states). And that's why our country's pornography business is centered in New Hampshire California.
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Old 05-04-2019, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
It's illegal because there are laws against it. See? Simple answer.

Why are there laws against it? Because some people are really bothered by prostitution. So they push for prohibiting it. There are probably many people who would like prostitution to be legal but they're not pushing as hard as the anti-prostitution people push. In a democracy, the legislature listens to the greatest numbers who speak the loudest.

Why are these laws allowed to stand? Because there are no grounds to overturn them. Prostitution is not protected by the Constitution. Our legal system allows the government to enact laws to enforce public morality.

On a side note, you can't get around most prostitution laws by videotaping it. In most places, paying somebody to have sex with you is illegal, even if it's being done for a movie. But having sex in order to make a movie is not considered to be prostitution in California and New Hampshire (due to court rulings in those states). And that's why our country's pornography business is centered in New Hampshire California.
Guessing you don't think selling your ability to have sex with someone is a human right lol. I'm sure if someone framed it this way on either side they would gain support. Right wingers and libertarians would love the framing of this as big government stepping into peoples hotel rooms. Leftists would support it because it hurts nobody, and whatever harm that could potentially come from it could be neglected if it's legalized and businesses are regulated. IE your pimp/advertiser can't force you to do something by threatening to stop advertising you.


I think you're taking an indecisive stance on this issue by stating the obvious which I see you do a lot. Just wondering what your personal opinion is on whether prostitution should be legal, and the precedent it sets for gov to control other things we do in our personal lives.
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Old 05-05-2019, 12:02 AM
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Guessing you don't think selling your ability to have sex with someone is a human right lol.
Actually, I do. But I don't have the power to enact or repeal laws.

You asked why prostitution is illegal. And I answered that question. Don't get snarky because you now realize you meant to ask a different question.
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Old 05-05-2019, 12:35 AM
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...it isn't illegal here. And I can't think of a good reason why it should be illegal anywhere else.
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Old 05-05-2019, 02:01 AM
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Actually, I do. But I don't have the power to enact or repeal laws.

You asked why prostitution is illegal. And I answered that question. Don't get snarky because you now realize you meant to ask a different question.
Actually you do, it's called a democracy.

I realize the question asked exactly what I wanted. You simply answer it poorly. Lol, "why is this illegal", "because this law says it is", "why is this law this way", "because it was written that way". You are trolling and have attempted to derail my thread.

Why did we make prostitution illegal and Why is prostitution illegal, if anyone asked me either or question I'm likely to give them the same answer. IF someone asks me Why can illegals seek asylum, then I cite the laws and not the reasoning. The context of the question and topic really matters, you intentionally misinterpretation it.

Last edited by Barack Obama; 05-05-2019 at 02:02 AM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:15 AM
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:56 AM
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I think it's illegal because sex with women is seen as highly valuable and a thing to protect for men with some kind of more legal and patriarchal right to get it. The same reason rape has always been such a big deal even though women's other rights of autonomy have so often been ignored - it's treated somewhat as a property crime rather than a violent crime.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:59 AM
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I still believe that the same logic which is mustered to compel a woman's right to abortion, i.e. basically that "it's my body and you don't control it", or equivalently, 'the right to privacy', applies also to a woman's right to sell her body if she so wishes.

FTR, I am absolutely in support of women's right to choose (both to have an abortion and to charge a fee for sex).

FTR, I believe this logic also applies to drug use (which I have noted here before).
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Old 05-05-2019, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
Actually you do, it's called a democracy.

I realize the question asked exactly what I wanted. You simply answer it poorly. Lol, "why is this illegal", "because this law says it is", "why is this law this way", "because it was written that way". You are trolling and have attempted to derail my thread.

Why did we make prostitution illegal and Why is prostitution illegal, if anyone asked me either or question I'm likely to give them the same answer. IF someone asks me Why can illegals seek asylum, then I cite the laws and not the reasoning. The context of the question and topic really matters, you intentionally misinterpretation it.
That'll earn you a warning. Do not call other posters trolls in Great Debates, please.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:53 AM
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I seem to recall that a lot of the laws against prostitution were passed to control venereal disease, specifically the spread of venereal disease from the prostitute to the customers to the customers' wives. This was in the late 19th-early 20th century, when VD wasn't easily cured, and could render female victims infertile. This concern about VD also led to the laws in some states requiring a blood test before receiving a marriage license (I believe Ceil may have once written about this).

Now, the OP asked why prostitution is illegal, and I've tried to answer why it was initially made illegal. Legal prostitution is of course opposed by most people with conservative sexual morals. And there are other concerns about the exploitation of women, to include trafficking and the use of minors. One can argue that most or all of these concerns could be dealt with through regulating a legalized prostitution industry. But all these things together make it less likely that we'll see prostitution legalized on a large scale anytime soon. That's why it's illegal.

One thing I've always found fascinating is that the early laws imposed more penalties on the prostitutes than the customers. And that the reasoning was that the male customers were just following their natural urges, while the women were choosing freely to take part. Wow.
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Old 05-05-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul in Qatar View Post
We seem to talk about this every other month.
For example, this thread from this January, with the exact same title: Why is prostitution illegal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
I realize the question asked exactly what I wanted. You simply answer it poorly.
There are multiple points of view from which the thread title's question may be answered, such as
  • Historically, why has prostitution been made illegal?
  • Psychologically, why do people want prostitution to be illegal?
  • Practically, what are the reasons no one is currently successfully working to make prostitution legal?
  • Ethically, should prostitution be illegal, and if so, why?
etc.

And, as the OP shows some awareness of, answers to at least some of these questions go to deeper fundamental issues, like

What is (or should be) the purpose of laws (in general)?
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Old 05-05-2019, 01:27 PM
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Exploitation of women by pimps is a huge problem. The line between forced and "voluntary" prostitution becomes fuzzy, but the number of forced sex slaves worldwide is in the millions! Even in the U.S. the problem is much more severe than many realize.

The real question is: How to combat forced prostitution? Will legalization of unforced prostitution be helpful or harmful? That's a controversial question, but prosecutors should tend to treat the women as victims rather than as criminals. In Georgia, Michael Wysolovski gotprobation and time-served for keeping a girl captive in a dog cage for a year.

Prosecution must target the exploiters, not the exploitees.

Last edited by septimus; 05-05-2019 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:17 PM
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Exploitation of women by pimps is a huge problem.
But isn't that because prostitution is illegal? People engaged in illegal activities don't get much protection from the government.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:25 PM
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It's illegal I once heard because of wives. Wives certainly don't want their husbands visiting a prostitute and I think most would fight tooth and nail to keep it from being legalized.

Please note that this is NOT my opinion, rather something I heard or read.
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:58 PM
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Because it is an all-too-human attribute to want to control other's lives.
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Old 05-05-2019, 04:45 PM
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But isn't that because prostitution is illegal? People engaged in illegal activities don't get much protection from the government.
The argument is that if prostitution is legalized, pimps will face less scrutiny. IIRC studies of the question are inconclusive.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:16 PM
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One thing I've always found fascinating is that the early laws imposed more penalties on the prostitutes than the customers. And that the reasoning was that the male customers were just following their natural urges, while the women were choosing freely to take part. Wow.
Your first sentence is not fascinating at all. You always go after the suppliers. If you want to stop cocaine, do you go after Pablo Escobar or the guy next door who buys it every now and again?

But if you state your second sentence differently, it is unremarkable as well. Presumably if we enacted harsh penalties for buying cocaine, we could stop new users and/or seriously cause current users to stop or switch drugs and maybe put a dent in the problem.

If we go after guys who are lonely and looking to get laid, we aren't going to turn off their sex drives. But if we go after someone who deliberately profits from the illegal trade with harsh punishments, they may decide to switch to another line of work.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:24 PM
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I think it's illegal because sex with women is seen as highly valuable and a thing to protect for men with some kind of more legal and patriarchal right to get it. The same reason rape has always been such a big deal even though women's other rights of autonomy have so often been ignored - it's treated somewhat as a property crime rather than a violent crime.
Disagree. If that were true, then prostitution would be considered no worse that fornication or adultery. The fact that the latter two have been decriminalized and for the most part accepted as private matters in modern society while prostitution remains illegal shows that people are not continuing to criminalize prostitution because of some archaic property right in women.

If a poster here says that he would not want his daughter becoming a prostitute, then does that mean that he is upset because he won't receive a nice dowry when he "permits" her to marry? If not, then your reason is incorrect.

This makes good fodder for feminist and leftist readers, but it doesn't stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:36 PM
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Because it's easier than the alternative. Virtue signalling, moral outrage, and scapegoating are easy ways to get votes without having to actually work on societal problems. It's theater. Sometimes, like where there are for profit prisons, there's also money involved. Additionally, even if you remove corruptive influences, it's just not easy to convince people that legalizing vices ought to be a high priority.

Or at least, it didn't used to be. The sweeping marijuana reform may indicate some sort of sea change.

Another way to look at it is, what are you doing to change things? If not much, there's your answer.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:59 PM
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IIRC studies of the question are inconclusive.
...which studies are you referring too?
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Old 05-05-2019, 06:09 PM
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California is slowly working toward legalization.

Immunity From Arrest For California Sex Workers Passes Senate

https://californiaglobe.com/legislat...passes-senate/
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Old 05-06-2019, 02:22 AM
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Since prostitution is legal in Australia, New Zealand, and many countries in Europe, there probably are studies on the effects of legalising it, including the effects on pimping.
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:25 AM
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Your first sentence is not fascinating at all. You always go after the suppliers. If you want to stop cocaine, do you go after Pablo Escobar or the guy next door who buys it every now and again?

But if you state your second sentence differently, it is unremarkable as well. Presumably if we enacted harsh penalties for buying cocaine, we could stop new users and/or seriously cause current users to stop or switch drugs and maybe put a dent in the problem.

If we go after guys who are lonely and looking to get laid, we aren't going to turn off their sex drives. But if we go after someone who deliberately profits from the illegal trade with harsh punishments, they may decide to switch to another line of work.
You're ignoring the reality that most women who turn to prostitution don't have a lot of other options. Turning off their need to eat (or their aversion to being beaten by a pimp) doesn't make any more sense than turning off the customers' sex drives. Pablo Escobar they ain't.

In any event, the quaint view that customers were innocent victims of wicked women has gone the way of polio and the evening paper.
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Old 05-06-2019, 03:41 PM
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According to the Epic of Gilgamesh (tablet VII c. 1,300 BCE) it was Enkidu who cursed prostitutes to a life of misery. Formerly they were the priestly caste.

~Max
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Old 05-06-2019, 05:15 PM
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Why is prostitution illegal? So that lawmakers can get good time slots with their favorite hookers.

Duh.
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Old 05-07-2019, 12:36 AM
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If all prostitutes (or even a healthy majority) were free agents, I would buy the "Women have agency over their own bodies" argument in a second. But it's so frequently not the case that I cannot.

We patriarchal white men want pro girls available for when we need them, but would rather our wives and daughters not consider this as a career option every time they're down by 20 dollars. As always, we men are the culprits.
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Old 05-07-2019, 01:54 AM
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If all prostitutes (or even a healthy majority) were free agents, I would buy the "Women have agency over their own bodies" argument in a second. But it's so frequently not the case that I cannot.
And those who are free agents should be prevented from working why, exactly?

Why don't you address the issue of those who aren't free agents and leave alone those you are?

And how exactly getting arrested help those who aren't free agents, anyway? If you discover that work safety regulations are frequently not respected in, say, coal mines, you're going to propose to arrest miners as a solution?
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:03 AM
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I'd prefer to call them sex workers. Webcam models are also sex workers, and in a way they are prostitutes. From my own anecdotal findings, they aren't very bright people and seem to be unhinged when it comes to their emotions. Much like drug addicts, if you made it a free for all, people will do dumb things they may later regret.
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:41 AM
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I'd prefer to call them sex workers. Webcam models are also sex workers, and in a way they are prostitutes. From my own anecdotal findings, they aren't very bright people and seem to be unhinged when it comes to their emotions. Much like drug addicts, if you made it a free for all, people will do dumb things they may later regret.
...your "anecdotal findings" ain't worth shit in a Great Debate. This is probably the worst justification for the continued legalization of prostitution I've seen on these boards: and I've seen a whole lot of really bad attempted justifications.
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:45 AM
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...your "anecdotal findings" ain't worth shit in a Great Debate. This is probably the worst justification for the continued legalization of prostitution I've seen on these boards: and I've seen a whole lot of really bad attempted justifications.
Might not be worth "shit" because your comprehension is terrible. Where in my post was I advocating for the legalization of prostitution?

Might also want to look up what the term anecdotal findings mean. Debate doesn't always rely on facts. If it were so, everything would be clear as day.

Last edited by SOJA; 05-07-2019 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 05-07-2019, 02:54 AM
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Might not be worth "shit" because your comprehension is terrible. Where in my post was I advocating for the legalization of prostitution?
...indeed. I meant "continued criminalization of sex work." My mistake.

Quote:
Might also want to look up what the term anecdotal findings mean. Debate doesn't always rely on facts. If it were so, everything would be clear as day.
I know exactly what "anecdotal findings" mean. It means you know at least one sex worker whom in your opinion "isn't very bright", therefore they are incapable of making decisions about their own body for themselves.

As I said: the worst rationalization I've ever seen on the boards.
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Old 05-07-2019, 03:06 AM
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Sometimes it helps you understand a word if you break it down. So let's do that now. Shall we? PROS-- Doesn't mean anything. Forget about that. TIT. I think we all know what that means. TU-- Okay, TU. And --TION, of course... ...from the Latin... ..."to shun." To say, "No thank you, anyway. I don't want it." "To push away." That doesn't even belong here. Let's get rid of it.
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Old 05-07-2019, 03:24 AM
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...indeed. I meant "continued criminalization of sex work." My mistake.



I know exactly what "anecdotal findings" mean. It means you know at least one sex worker whom in your opinion "isn't very bright", therefore they are incapable of making decisions about their own body for themselves.

As I said: the worst rationalization I've ever seen on the boards.
Fair enough. Thank you for apologizing. That wasn't all I was alluding to. Someone who gives up their body in exchange for money usually has some affliction. It isn't merely brightness, but mental aptitude in its entire scope. There is something developmentally wrong there.
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Old 05-07-2019, 03:29 AM
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Fair enough. Thank you for apologizing. That wasn't all I was alluding to. Someone who gives up their body in exchange for money usually has some affliction.
...cite?

Quote:
It isn't merely brightness, but mental aptitude in its entire scope. There is something developmentally wrong there.
Cite?

Oh sorry, I forgot. You are your cite.

How many sex workers have you interacted with, how did you evaluate their "mental aptitude", and how did you determine there was something "developmentally wrong there?"
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Old 05-07-2019, 07:31 AM
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...cite?



Cite?

Oh sorry, I forgot. You are your cite.

How many sex workers have you interacted with, how did you evaluate their "mental aptitude", and how did you determine there was something "developmentally wrong there?"
Citations stating otherwise? The problem with citing studies such as "The mental health of female sex workers" or " The Motivation and Mental Health of Sex Workers" is that it goes 100% against a study conducted in 2001, "The Mental and Physical Health of Female Sex Workers: A Comparative Study." This is true for all research. There is always one study to counteract the findings of another, sometimes even during the same time period. Sample pools are going to be small, less than 200 often, and be confined to one particular area due to the nature of such broad studies.

It doesn't matter; if someone is giving up their body in exchange for money and or drugs, there is something wrong with them mentally. I implore you to provide data that says this is normal behavior. I'd say the same about a school/university student who merely has sex with multiple partners. And by that I mean dozens, which isn't rare for a college bicycle.

I'm atheist. I'm liberal as hell. I still see a problem that many tiptoe around. We're not going to sugarcoat anything here and pretend being a sex worker is remotely health, aside from the risk of STIs.

Last edited by SOJA; 05-07-2019 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:11 AM
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It doesn't matter; if someone is giving up their body in exchange for money and or drugs, there is something wrong with them mentally.
By extension, does this include people who play a sport professionally, which carries a high likelihood of causing them permanent harm to their bodies (e.g., football, hockey, etc.)?
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:19 AM
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Someone who gives up their body in exchange for money usually has some affliction. It isn't merely brightness, but mental aptitude in its entire scope. There is something developmentally wrong there.
This seems weird. I like to have sex with women. If I could legally get paid to do it, I would. Why is that indicative of a mental illness?
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Old 05-07-2019, 09:43 AM
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The answer to this question I have seen other times this has been discussed is that prostitution Was legal for a long time. Around the end of the 19th century or thereabouts, prostitutes simply became an ongoing public nuisance- you couldn't walk down the street without being accosted by a bunch of hookers. Ruined the whole family vibe, I guess.

Now, it is legal in Nevada (And RI, I think), but in brothels, not just in the street as private contractors. It is not legal in Vegas though- last time I was there, I remember a bunch of hookers hanging around the hotel, and the staff being annoyed by them, comparing them to rats or something like that. Apparently people reliably get offended by the presence of a bunch of hookers.

Is there something wrong with them? Who knows, I am the wrong guy to ask though. I figure they are just broke or straight up out of drugs and see prostitution as their path of least resistance.
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Old 05-07-2019, 10:24 AM
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If all prostitutes (or even a healthy majority) were free agents, I would buy the "Women have agency over their own bodies" argument in a second. But it's so frequently not the case that I cannot.

We patriarchal white men want pro girls available for when we need them, but would rather our wives and daughters not consider this as a career option every time they're down by 20 dollars. As always, we men are the culprits.
I'm inclined to say prostitutes are treated like nonpersons because they were never afforded the legal protection as employees. Prostitutes don't unionize, they don't have minimum wages, they can't force pimps to abide by OSHA, they probably don't get health insurance, worker's comp, 401k, etc... Lack of protections only amplifies the power differential between a woman and a man who literally sells the woman's body for sex.

Also some prostitutes have children, and I dare say all such are single mothers. If a prostitute sues their pimp (eg: abuse), there's a perceived risk that she goes to jail for the crimes of ... prostitution and tax evasion. The court can definitely take the kid away.

All of this before factoring in drugs.

~Max
  #43  
Old 05-07-2019, 10:46 AM
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Do all prostitutes have a mental disorder?


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Originally Posted by SOJA View Post
It doesn't matter; if someone is giving up their body in exchange for money and or drugs, there is something wrong with them mentally.
You seem to think the act of prostitution qua prostitution implies the prostitute has a mental disorder. I disagree. Most people are wired to like sex*, which is an obvious evolutionary benefit. It is not inherently irrational to make a living by having sex.

Unfortunately there are prostitutes who may not be so excited about their career path. But that doesn't mean anything is wrong with them mentally. Lots of normal people take jobs they don't like, and it does not follow that something is wrong with them mentally.

Drugs can introduce addiction, which is a mental disorder. It may well be that there are many drugs in the prostitution industry right now, the movies certainly give that appearance.

~Max

*I can't provide a cite, at least not at work. But having sex activates pleasure pathways in a relatively healthy way. Taken to an extreme, this does result in a disorder called hypersexuality.
  #44  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:08 AM
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It must be Tuesday again...

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Originally Posted by Barack Obama View Post
Does anyone actually think prostitution should be criminalized? Chances are if you're prostituting yourself you have other issues such as drug abuse or financial issues. I believe it was Sweden or maybe Switzerland that had an heroin epidemic, and prostitution was skyrocketing, then after they introduced measures to weed people off herion, prostitution plummeted. They didn't start targeting prostitutes, they fixed the core reason why there was so many prostitutes.
Sure, a lot of people think it should be criminalized. Probably why, you know, there are all those laws making it illegal. Just a guess there. The thing, even in a lot of countries where it's tolerated it's still, technically, illegal. You might want to consider that there are people who oppose it for a variety of reasons before asking such sweeping questions, unless you meant to say 'Does anyone on this board actually think prostitution should be criminalized?'.

As for the reasons, there are a lot, ranging from the moral to the fact most places think it's a nuance. Here is a website that lists the top 10 reasons THEY think it should be illegal. It's trivially easy to look this stuff up yourself:

Quote:
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry.It expands it.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.
Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex Industry increases child prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.
Women in systems of Prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.

Quote:
So why in America, do we criminalize prostitution? I believe it should be a human right to do whatever you want with your body, including self harm, prostitution, excessive drug use, whatever it is thats your right and nobody especially a government should be sending armed people to come kill you because you sucked some cops dick behind a dumpster and you resist arrest.
Why single out the US? Are you under the impression that the US is the only country that criminalizes prostitution? It's not even legal in all of Europe, let alone world wide, and the number of countries where it is legal are fewer than the countries where it's illegal, though if you expand that to countries where it's technically illegal but not enforced you get a better balance.

The thing is, your simplistic sucking of your dick and other graphic horseshit glosses over some of the details. The women (or men) aren't always volunteering to do this of their own free will, despite what you might be telling yourself. Legalization would be a huge pain in the ass as you'd need to strictly regulate it or there would be abuse. Even if you do strictly regulate it, it's open to abuse. It's like anything else...when you make something legal there will be unintended consequences and blow back that you didn't anticipate. So, it's not something that is easy or cheap to do. And, frankly, there aren't enough people who want to jump through the hoops necessary to get it made illegal in a way that actually would benefit the working people and protect them. Think about how hard it has been to get marijuana legalized and you can see a glimmer of what it would actually take to make prostitution legal across the country, let alone worldwide. The potential for abuse is staggering.

SHOULD a person freely be able to sell their body as they choose? I think so, yes...it's their body and they should be able to do what they want. But, sadly, it isn't always what they DO want, and often they are force or coerced into it. Personally, I think if you put regulation and strict enforcement of sane laws in place it would, eventually, help those who are in the sex business, but I'm not naive enough to think this would be cheap or easy to do, except in very small, controlled places (after all, it IS legal in parts of Nevada already).
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  #45  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by SOJA View Post
It doesn't matter; if someone is giving up their body in exchange for money and or drugs, there is something wrong with them mentally.
...of course it fucking matters. If you are going to be claiming there is something inherently "mentally wrong" with an entire group of people then the very least you can do is provide some evidence for that claim.

Quote:
I implore you to provide data that says this is normal behavior. I'd say the same about a school/university student who merely has sex with multiple partners. And by that I mean dozens, which isn't rare for a college bicycle.
You want me to provide data that fucking is normal? That there is something wrong with having multiple partners above a certain arbitrary number? That isn't my obligation.

Quote:
I'm atheist. I'm liberal as hell. I still see a problem that many tiptoe around. We're not going to sugarcoat anything here and pretend being a sex worker is remotely health, aside from the risk of STIs.
You aren't as "liberal" as you think. Nobody "tiptoes" around this problem. You aren't being woke" or "original" imagining sex work isn't healthy. I'd be open to your argument if you had some evidence to back up anything you've said. But you don't. You won't even back up your "anecdotal findings" by telling me how many sex workers you interacted with to be able to determine their "mental aptitude". You've got nothing.
  #46  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
SHOULD a person freely be able to sell their body as they choose? I think so, yes...it's their body and they should be able to do what they want. But, sadly, it isn't always what they DO want, and often they are force or coerced into it. Personally, I think if you put regulation and strict enforcement of sane laws in place it would, eventually, help those who are in the sex business, but I'm not naive enough to think this would be cheap or easy to do, except in very small, controlled places (after all, it IS legal in parts of Nevada already).
In some countries in the world - and even in the US - women are imported to become maids and are basically enslaved as such, with their passports being held "for their protection." Should we outlaw housecleaning, or should we increase our efforts to stem abuses?
  #47  
Old 05-07-2019, 03:23 PM
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The question about legalization puts the cart before the horse. First we must ask
(1) Is prostitution helpful or harmful for society, the economy, and liberty?

I don't think this question has an easy answer, but will note:
(a) Easily available sex might raise society's net happiness!
(b) I read here about the bizarre "Incel" phenomenon. Prostitution might be a partial remedy for ailments like that.

But along with prostitution comes forced prostitution:
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Exploitation of women by pimps is a huge problem. The line between forced and "voluntary" prostitution becomes fuzzy, but the number of forced sex slaves worldwide is in the millions! Even in the U.S. the problem is much more severe than many realize.

The real question is: How to combat forced prostitution? Will legalization of unforced prostitution be helpful or harmful? That's a controversial question, but prosecutors should tend to treat the women as victims rather than as criminals....
Prosecution must target the exploiters, not the exploitees.
ONLY after considering question (1), and considering the perils of forced prostitution should the question of legalization even arise. The highest priority must be to reduce coercion and other harms.

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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
The argument is that if prostitution is legalized, pimps will face less scrutiny. IIRC studies of the question are inconclusive.
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...which studies are you referring too?
"IIRC" implies I'm no expert. And anyway, studies differ. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by XT View Post
It must be Tuesday again...

... Here is a website that lists the top 10 reasons THEY think it should be illegal. It's trivially easy to look this stuff up yourself:

Quote:
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution is a gift to pimps, traffickers and the sex industry.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution and the sex industry promotes sex trafficking.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not control the sex industry.It expands it.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases clandestine, hidden, illegal and street prostitution.
Legalization of prostitution and decriminalization of the sex Industry increases child prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not protect the women in prostitution.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution increases the demand for prostitution. It boosts the motivation of men to buy women for sex in a much wider and more permissible range of socially acceptable settings.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not promote women's health.
Legalization/decriminalization of prostitution does not enhance women's choice.
Women in systems of Prostitution do not want the sex industry legalized or decriminalized.
I didn't click XT's link, but the source certainly thinks it has the answers! I'm especially skeptical of the final claim in the quote.

Those who use a broad brush to paint all prostitutes, are in error IMO.
  #48  
Old 05-07-2019, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
I'm inclined to say prostitutes are treated like nonpersons because they were never afforded the legal protection as employees. Prostitutes don't unionize, they don't have minimum wages, they can't force pimps to abide by OSHA, they probably don't get health insurance, worker's comp, 401k, etc... Lack of protections only amplifies the power differential between a woman and a man who literally sells the woman's body for sex.
They are Unionized in New Zealand and have been for over 30 years. The New Zealand Prostitutes Collective was founded in 1987 before prostitution was legalized and if you wanted to use the "labor and management" model then it wasn't pimps they were negotiating against as "management" it was the New Zealand government and instead of a worker's employment contract they were looking for laws to be passed through the legislature.
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
Also some prostitutes have children, and I dare say all such are single mothers. If a prostitute sues their pimp (eg: abuse), there's a perceived risk that she goes to jail for the crimes of ... prostitution and tax evasion. The court can definitely take the kid away.
Which is why the whole issue of pimps is mostly a red herring in this discussion. The controlling authority, who sets the working conditions, rules for market access, health and safety standards, etc. is the government, not the dude in platform shoes with goldfish in them. Pimps exist for the same reason warlords exist in failed states. They provide necessary services, particularly security, access to markets, and support. Don't laugh, the stereotype of an abusive pimp is only part of it. Most pimps spend their time posting listings for their girls, scouting locations where they can work without interference, communicating with clients while the girls are behind closed doors, etc. In today's information age a pimp is part marketing, part secretary, part driver, part bouncer, etc.. These are necessary to run a business with fuzzy legal status. In the one place in the US where prostitution is legal the brothel handles all those services and you'll find the women there don't have pimps. If prostitution was legal odds are services for all those needs would spring up that would have standard, contractually enforceable, behaviors that minimize the problems we see when they're provided by pimps.
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
All of this before factoring in drugs.
That's a whole separate issue. Drugs can drive someone to desperation AND impair their judgment so they do things they wouldn't do even if they weren't desperate. But drugs are a social health crisis and prostitution is more of a employment and market issue. It's the world's oldest profession and substance abuse is a bigger problem among the sex workers who self medicate to avoid the issues they can't overcome, like legal recourse to a client who treated them poorly, or being able to legally manage their funds. Sex workers are often on the fringes of society already and doing things like using FOSTA/SESTA to seize their bank balances are going to marginalize them further and push them into taking even more risky work.
Quote:
Sex workers as well as those in sex-adjacent fields (including erotic dancing, porn, and BDSM) have also found their bank accounts and digital payment systems being frozen by authorities jobs that are "ostensibly legal" under state or federal law, but turn up in digital sweeps, Michael noted.

In these already marginalized industries, workers who get locked out of their finances and are frequently denied loans, mortgages, or even checking and savings accounts, despite pretty average incomes have little ability for recourse or to move forward with their lives. Given that our workforce includes hundreds of thousands of full- or part-time sex workers, dancers, massage and sex therapists, models, pro-dommes, and so on, the financial and personal repercussions of these digital crackdowns are frankly colossal, Michael said.
I'm pretty libertarian about this. If people can voluntarily work in the fields picking vegetables until their kidneys give out from repeated dehydration and they die before they're forty and we're ok with the market managing that situation then why not let people use their genitalia to make money?

Enjoy,
Steven
  #49  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
The question about legalization puts the cart before the horse. First we must ask
(1) Is prostitution helpful or harmful for society, the economy, and liberty?
...why must we ask this question first?

Why wouldn't you ask "is making sex work illegal helpful or harmful to sex workers?"

Quote:
I don't think this question has an easy answer, but will note:
(a) Easily available sex might raise society's net happiness!
(b) I read here about the bizarre "Incel" phenomenon. Prostitution might be a partial remedy for ailments like that.
Your "notes" are framed through a male gaze. Why do incels matter? They are statistically insignificant. They shouldn't even be part of this discussion.

Quote:
But along with prostitution comes forced prostitution:
"Forced prostitution" remains illegal in countries like New Zealand that have legalized sex work.

Quote:
ONLY after considering question (1), and considering the perils of forced prostitution should the question of legalization even arise. The highest priority must be to reduce coercion and other harms.
Except the question you ask doesn't have a single, objective answer, and almost nothing exists where you couldn't argue that it both "helps" or "harms" society. The "perils" of forced prostitution is something you are dealing with now. Why would decriminalizing or legalizing change this?

Quote:
"IIRC" implies I'm no expert. And anyway, studies differ. For example:
"IIRC" implies you've seen the studies, but cannot recall the exact details.

Quote:
I didn't click XT's link, but the source certainly thinks it has the answers! I'm especially skeptical of the final claim in the quote.
If you had of clicked on the link you would have discovered the list was compiled Janice G Raymond, a Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist who authored the book " The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male." A quote from the book: "All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves."

And you should be skeptical of the final claim. In New Zealand the law change came about because of active lobbying from women and men from the sex industry. Here is the case Amnesty International makes for decriminalizing sex work:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/qa-policy...f-sex-workers/

Quote:
Those who use a broad brush to paint all prostitutes, are in error IMO.
Those who view this issue through the lens of "well maybe it will fix the incels" are in error as well.
  #50  
Old 05-07-2019, 05:53 PM
Max S. is online now
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Originally Posted by Mtgman View Post
They are Unionized in New Zealand and have been for over 30 years. The New Zealand Prostitutes Collective was founded in 1987 before prostitution was legalized and if you wanted to use the "labor and management" model then it wasn't pimps they were negotiating against as "management" it was the New Zealand government and instead of a worker's employment contract they were looking for laws to be passed through the legislature.
Which is why the whole issue of pimps is mostly a red herring in this discussion. The controlling authority, who sets the working conditions, rules for market access, health and safety standards, etc. is the government, not the dude in platform shoes with goldfish in them. Pimps exist for the same reason warlords exist in failed states. They provide necessary services, particularly security, access to markets, and support. Don't laugh, the stereotype of an abusive pimp is only part of it. Most pimps spend their time posting listings for their girls, scouting locations where they can work without interference, communicating with clients while the girls are behind closed doors, etc. In today's information age a pimp is part marketing, part secretary, part driver, part bouncer, etc.. These are necessary to run a business with fuzzy legal status. In the one place in the US where prostitution is legal the brothel handles all those services and you'll find the women there don't have pimps. If prostitution was legal odds are services for all those needs would spring up that would have standard, contractually enforceable, behaviors that minimize the problems we see when they're provided by pimps.
Agreed. I did not mean to imply that pimps are the problem with prostitution.

~Max
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