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  #101  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:52 AM
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Where do the sauce and cheese come in? And what about the Big Pizza Cutter In the Sky?? That could be worse than the coming of the handkerchief....

The real important question is : who do we have to tip in order for them not to jerk off into the Antarctic Crust ?
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  #102  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:58 AM
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ETA : and who are we being delivered to ?
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  #103  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:40 PM
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More importantly, are there any pictures of the giant three-legged disk at the north pole?
  #104  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:46 PM
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to start I am pretty much an agnostic.

Let's say someone shows up at your door and says he's God and wants to prove it.

Then he says "I can snap my fingers and any car you want will appear right here. In fact I can bring any 5 cars of any cost - Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Lambo, Ferrari , etc. , or if you prefer I will give you $1 million in cash." and then does which one you pick.

Would you think this person is God or would you think there is some kind of trick going on? To me that would prove this person is God. What about you?
I'd close the door in his face before he even got to the snapping fingers business.

By my definition, any being that actually cares whether lesser beings believe in him is automatically not a god.

I know there are religions that believe that God says anyone who doesn't accept him as the one and only deity will be confined to eternal hellfire. My reaction to this is, "Really? How effing petty is that?"
  #105  
Old 05-06-2019, 12:52 PM
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Let's go back to basics:

Make a rock so big He Himself can't lift it.
What do you think all those black holes all over the place are?
  #106  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:09 PM
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What do you think all those black holes all over the place are?
Oh shit.
  #107  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:13 PM
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An omnipotent God could simply make me know He exists. Why would He need to go through the trouble of proving it thought some external stimuli? He could just make all athiests know of His existence.

No other idea makes sense. Anything I can see, hear, etc. that would otherwise be impossible - the burning bush, voices, God coming down from the sky to shake my hand, the Maple Leafs winning a Stanley Cup - is much more logically explained as a mental breakdown, causes by a tumor or disease or whatever, or by some unlikely natural phenomena.
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  #108  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:59 PM
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What do you think all those black holes all over the place are?
So I just have to say, “Go dive into Sagittarius A* and come back out intact,” and that might be enough to make me believe – or finally rid us of this pesky god person.
  #109  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:15 PM
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First off, just to make sure he wasn't wasting my time, I'd ask him to immediately give me the same powers I gave the main character in my book. If I suddenly found myself with powerful telekinesis, the ability to innately sense nearby movement, and a mild ability to sense emotions then I'd know he was either omniscient or had read my books, and that he has a certain amount of mad skillz.

Having crossed that hurdle, I'd invite him in, offer him a bottled water (which I'd fetch telekinetically), and ask him to explain to me which specific God he wanted me to believe he was. I imagine this would take him a while, and over the course of the discussion I'd also try and get him to explain the problem of evil, which has always been a big hurdle for Gods. As the discussion wound to a close, I would sadly inform him that the reality of the situation is that it's actually impossible to uniquely identify anybody if one can't confirm their unique similarity to some objective identifying source, like a photographic ID from a reliable issuing agency. As God is not (to my knowledge) licensed by any agency I consider reputable, it's actually impossible for him to prove to me that he's God and not God's twin brother with identical appearance and powers. So it's impossible for him to prove that he's the specific God he claims to be.

That said, I'd thank him for his time, ask him if he'd like to hang out again, and obliquely inquire as to whether he'd be willing to help me with my weight problem.
  #110  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:51 PM
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Make world peace happen, bring us all joy and happiness and the richness of a meaningful life. End systemic suffering, eliminate cruelty and hatred and oppression and exploitation. Solve hunger and fix the energy crisis and show us how to leave in equilibrium with the natural world.

If you can't do that, I don't much care whether or not you can make dead people alive again or fly or walk on water or prove you can be omniscient or whatever. Those stunts might make you a good Marvel Comics character or something but they don't make you God.
This, without any of that curse of the monkey’s paw shit. Otherwise, just go back to Asgard and shut the fuck up. And take your colander hat with you.
  #111  
Old 05-06-2019, 04:57 PM
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First off, just to make sure he wasn't wasting my time, I'd ask him to immediately give me the same powers I gave the main character in my book. If I suddenly found myself with powerful telekinesis, the ability to innately sense nearby movement, and a mild ability to sense emotions then I'd know he was either omniscient or had read my books, and that he has a certain amount of mad skillz.
I just caught a kid up the street bouncing a basketball out of the corner of my eye. And even though she's downstairs, I can tell my wife's pissed because she's stomping around. All I need is the telekinesis.
  #112  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:01 PM
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I just caught a kid up the street bouncing a basketball out of the corner of my eye. And even though she's downstairs, I can tell my wife's pissed because she's stomping around. All I need is the telekinesis.
If I ain't tossing trucks around and detecting/catching bullets, the God's half-assing it.
  #113  
Old 05-06-2019, 05:08 PM
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The traditional Christian God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent. So I throw the ball to him and ask him to figure out what evidence would irrefutably convince me he is God and then provide that evidence to me.
What can he provide if asked for evidence that’d irrefutably do the opposite?
  #114  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:36 PM
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What can he provide if asked for evidence that’d irrefutably do the opposite?
Precisely the evidence he's provided thus far.

HEYYYY WAIT!!!... NOW THAT.... THAT is bril.... completely bonkers.
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  #115  
Old 05-06-2019, 07:59 PM
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What can he provide if asked for evidence that’d irrefutably do the opposite?
So you would say, “If you are in fact the God, prove that God does not exist.” Excellent.
  #117  
Old 05-06-2019, 10:07 PM
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I have an invisible leprechaun in my garage. What do I have to do to prove it to you?

No, you can't hear him; he's very light on his feet and chooses not to speak in the presence of those who don't believe in him.

No, you can't touch him; he'll move out of the way if you get close.

No, you can't smell him; he showers regularly, but only when no one's around.

No, he won't lead you to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. He could, and he used to do it all the time, but not anymore. He does pull off some magic tricks sometimes, like giving people the hiccups or helping the Celtics beat the Lakers. But he's a bit capricious about those things; you can't control or predict him.

So what do I have to do to prove to you that he's real? Are you so closed-minded that there's nothing that would convince you of my by-design untestable assertion?
  #118  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:10 PM
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You would think that placebos wont work if you tell the patient that they are deliberately been given placebos.

Surprise Surprise : They still work. http://media.virbcdn.com/files/43/Fi...ntsBMJ2008.pdf


So the concept of God, even if you prove to be fake by logic, will bring the feelings of well-being to the believer.

This is perhaps the difference in thinking in western and eastern philosophies.
  #119  
Old 05-06-2019, 11:38 PM
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You would think that placebos wont work if you tell the patient that they are deliberately been given placebos.

Surprise Surprise : They still work. http://media.virbcdn.com/files/43/Fi...ntsBMJ2008.pdf


So the concept of God, even if you prove to be fake by logic, will bring the feelings of well-being to the believer.
Your garden variety atheist does not give a shit about that. We really do not care whether you participate in the shared delusion. That is entirely your concern – just fail to make it our concern. We find that a non-trivial number of religious people are dreadfully inept at failing to make it our concern, and some of them are worrisomely adamant when it comes to encroaching on the comfort of unbelievers, in the name of unsubstantiatable cause.
  #120  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:23 AM
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Snark aside, the Old Testament is full of examples of the Lord talking directly to ordinary humans. As we gradually developed the means to accurately document past events and conversations, these encounters dropped off pretty suddenly. the two obvious explanations are (1) He no longer wants to speak to us, or (2) He never did and the prophets of record were lying or crazy.

Frankly, if your cosmology or spirituality or sense of morality depend on the existence of anthropormorphic space gods, you're doing it wrong.

Last edited by Horatio Hellpop; 05-07-2019 at 12:23 AM.
  #121  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:16 AM
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I'd ask him to explain a David Lynch movie.
  #122  
Old 05-07-2019, 01:18 AM
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I'd ask him to explain a David Lynch movie.
You'll be wanting to talk to The Other Guy about that.
  #123  
Old 05-07-2019, 06:34 AM
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If he/ she/ it’s finger-snapping put an end to all human suffering I’d be happy to call him/ her/ it “God.”
Ah, the Thanos approach. Remember there are multiple ways to "put an end to all human suffering".

But I'm with the "If God is God, God will already know how to convince me He is God" crowd.
  #124  
Old 05-07-2019, 08:35 AM
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Snark aside, the Old Testament is full of examples of the Lord talking directly to ordinary humans.
I'm not so sure. It looks to me like, even in the Old Testament, the vast majority of ordinary humans, and even some of the "special people," never heard directly from God at all.
  #125  
Old 05-07-2019, 09:31 AM
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Violate the second rule of thermodynamics.
  #126  
Old 05-07-2019, 10:51 AM
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to start I am pretty much an agnostic.

Let's say someone shows up at your door and says he's God and wants to prove it.

Then he says "I can snap my fingers and any car you want will appear right here. In fact I can bring any 5 cars of any cost - Mercedes, Rolls Royce, Lambo, Ferrari , etc. , or if you prefer I will give you $1 million in cash." and then does which one you pick.

Would you think this person is God or would you think there is some kind of trick going on? To me that would prove this person is God. What about you?
First, I'd inquire if there are any strings attached to the gift because not all gods have good intentions - most notably the one who sent his son to earth to be tortured and killed. Then I would ask her, why she came over to my house. Eventually, I'd assume she was some kind of god having a bit of fun here on Earth, though. But if she's thinking adoration is forthcoming, I'll just have to say it happens already on the legal tender. However if she retorts that were using plastic now and it doesn't read in God we trust, well, I'll just to agree and appear sad about it.
  #127  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:04 AM
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Would you think this person is God or would you think there is some kind of trick going on? To me that would prove this person is God. What about you?
Nope. Only two things could convince me God was God:
a) explain the concept of God so that it made sense to me; AND
b) grant me all the same power they have. Omni-everything.

Anything else just falls under the "merely a very powerful being" limitation.

Hell, a small Culture GCU could do any of those parlour tricks. Or just make you think it had, it's a bit of a grey area.

Last edited by MrDibble; 05-07-2019 at 11:05 AM.
  #128  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:31 AM
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I'm thinking of the "how many fingers am I holding up" scene in Bruce Almighty, culminating with seven fingers on Bruce's hand. If I had seven fingers on one hand all of a sudden, the guy claiming to be God would have my attention.
  #129  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:38 AM
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Quite easily.

Heal me.

Mind and body. Cure my mental illness, my physical damage, my diabetes, restore my lost teeth, fix my eyesight, remove my scars, everything.
  #130  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:43 AM
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Quite easily.

Heal me.

Mind and body. Cure my mental illness, my physical damage, my diabetes, restore my lost teeth, fix my eyesight, remove my scars, everything.
That'd prove that they're magically powerful, but it wouldn't prove that they're (the christian) God.

Not that it would really matter at that point, though, right? You'll have what you want. Same reason I started out asking for psychic powers - not because it would convince me that they're some specific fictional dude, but because I want psychic powers.
  #131  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:51 AM
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What can he provide if asked for evidence that’d irrefutably do the opposite?
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So you would say, “If you are in fact the God, prove that God does not exist.” Excellent.
So God responds by giving you irrefutable evidence that he is real.

You say, "Wow, I'm impressed. You've convinced me you're God. But you screwed up. You were supposed to convince me you don't exist."

God would respond, "But you'd agree only one all-powerful God can exist, right?"

"Yes, that's logically undeniable."

Then God would rip off his mask and say "I'm actually Zeus."




Then he asks you to put on the swan costume he's handing you.
  #132  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:07 PM
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1. Take me to where he was before he created the universe.
2. Create another one.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 05-07-2019 at 12:07 PM.
  #133  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:19 PM
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Another universe or another deity?
  #134  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:25 PM
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Another universe or another deity?
Let's keep it simple-just another universe.
  #135  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:30 PM
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But can the all-powerful superbeing handle two entire universes? Sounds like you want to get it all stressed out. It would kind of have to create another deity just to take care of the second universe.
  #136  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:34 PM
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Another universe or another deity?
Ooh! This sounds fun!:

*knock knock*

Me: Hello? Who are you, and why are you in a toga?

He: I'm God. I am all powerful and can do anything. What miracle can I do that will convince you that I'm God?

Me: Make an exact duplicate of yourself, who is not the same person as you, but who looks just like you, acts just like you, has all the same powers as you, has the same memories as you, and believes he's you. Then rewind time ten minutes and instead of you coming to my door, have the copy come instead.

He: But if I rewind time like that you won't remember anything either; you'll see the copy and think he's me.

Me: *looks at him meaningfully*
  #137  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:36 PM
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But can the all-powerful superbeing handle two entire universes? Sounds like you want to get it all stressed out. It would kind of have to create another deity just to take care of the second universe.
I guess you and I have different definitions of "all-powerful".
  #138  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:36 PM
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Quite easily.

Heal me.

Mind and body. Cure my mental illness, my physical damage, my diabetes, restore my lost teeth, fix my eyesight, remove my scars, everything.
Yeah. Faith healers always seen to be able to make the supposedly lame able to walk, but never grow back limbs. A god doing that without equipment would get my attention.
  #139  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:50 PM
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Quite easily.

Heal me.

Mind and body. Cure my mental illness, my physical damage, my diabetes, restore my lost teeth, fix my eyesight, remove my scars, everything.
"If I could do that - you wouldn't need me anymore ---- <poof>"
  #140  
Old 05-07-2019, 03:19 PM
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I'd be highly skeptical that a true god--the alpha and omega, mind you--would be concerned with proving to me his existence. Like, why? What does it matter?

If God exists, he knows I wouldn't appreciate someone showing up at my door unannounced. Now tack on this person promising a bunch of hocus pocus nonsense, and I'm already closing the door in his face before he finishes his spiel about making cars appear. I've got two kids under the age of 3 and a demanding professional life. Ain't nobody got time for some shaggy dog story of a sales pitch or whatever this craziness is. God should know this.

Also, if God exists, he would already know what would convince me; why isn't he just doing it? There wouldn't even be a need for him to tell me what he doing. And he would certainly know that I'm not a car person. Like, WTF do I need 5 cars for? God would already know there is no chance I'd pick this option.

If God exists, he would also know that I'm not going to just believe some rando is God just because he claims it, even if he's capable of doing seemingly supernatural things. He could be Satan or even a extraterrestrial being trying to dupe me. The car stuff would be evidence that I'm not dealing with someone who truly knows me like a true creator of the universe would.

Bottom line, the only thing I'm going to be convinced of is that I'm dealing with a powerful entity that has ill-intentions because he's lying.

Last edited by you with the face; 05-07-2019 at 03:20 PM.
  #141  
Old 05-07-2019, 04:47 PM
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An omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being would know what I'd need to see/hear/touch/taste/smell to be willing to believe in them. Any lesser being would probably be some version of Ardra and I have no interest in helping them improve their con by telling them what my criteria are.

Enjoy,
Steven
  #142  
Old 05-07-2019, 07:39 PM
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I am willing to bet with some gadgets I could travel 2000 years in the past and go to the Middle East and convince everyone I am a god.

So that’s the benchmark for me, what could they do I could not dismiss as simply a technological marvel.

If they were THE God, they would know what that is.
  #143  
Old 05-08-2019, 02:32 AM
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Here's another way I'm thinking about this.

A god could insert themselves into the universe in such a way as to be necessary. That they and their nature would be the only possible explanation for the phenomena we see.
By that I mean that we understand, perceive and define the world through our senses and the scientific method and we have developed methodologies to make sure that we do not fool ourselves. I'll hold gods to the same standard. For me to accept that a god was real they would have to reveal themselves through the same means as gravity, germs, the electromagnetic spectrum etc. and be testable through those same methods.

When the evidence points exclusively to a being with the specific properties that the theist claims then I'll believe.

But again, to even start to think about this the onus is on the theist to define their specific god
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  #144  
Old 05-08-2019, 02:40 AM
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Let's be less speciesist about this. Why assume that God is trying to prove his existence to a human being?

Could God prove his existence to a chimpanzee? Would an all-powerful and all-knowing being be able to frame the reality of his existence in terms that a chimpanzee could understand?

Let's move down the ladder. Could God prove his existence to a mouse? To a housefly? To a tree? To a bacterium? To a rock?

And if God can't do any of these things, then how is God all powerful and all knowing?
  #145  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:15 AM
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If he/she/it existed - there would already be ample proof of its existence that would stand up to scrutiny and objective reasoning/process.

Parlor tricks don't concern me - no matter the scale. Water to wine? piffle - my dad does that in his basement as a hobby.

It amazes me to this day that people accept without question a 2000 year old text as 'THE WORD OF GOD" when they would dismiss, summarily, anyone that ran around today making the same absurd claims as those written down.... "that burning bush talked to me" would be met pretty quickly with derision and a healthy dose of medications and therapy.
Yup, the Biblical miracles are somewhat short of being truly miraculous, apart from raising the dead. The jury is still out on the latter. The scientists want to know if that can be repeated, and if so, then please do it in front of the TV cameras.
  #146  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:18 AM
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Is the intent of this thread:

"See, there's no proof you atheists would take to prove God exists! You're closed minded! You could pick apart anything! You ignore the proof of God you already see!"

Or is it

"If someone came to you with apparent supernatural powers, how would you go about determining if they were God, some other supernatural entity, aliens with technology indistinguishable from magic, you're in the Matrix and the controllers are screwing with you, etc.?"

Because those are fairly different debates. It might help to identify which one you're after to get the answers you want.
I can't fathom the idea a god that has recognisably human attributes, so I assume that if such an entity should drop by, the experience will be more like swimming than like buying a car or signing a contract.
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Old 05-08-2019, 03:23 AM
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Snark aside, the Old Testament is full of examples of the Lord talking directly to ordinary humans. As we gradually developed the means to accurately document past events and conversations, these encounters dropped off pretty suddenly. the two obvious explanations are (1) He no longer wants to speak to us, or (2) He never did and the prophets of record were lying or crazy.

Frankly, if your cosmology or spirituality or sense of morality depend on the existence of anthropormorphic space gods, you're doing it wrong.
Quite so. The written record is ... spotty, apart from the sayings of the prophets, which got written down. Much later. For that matter, Jesus is not well documented either. We are still looking for the May 33 CE edition of the Jerusalem Bugle and Clarion with reports that some guy came back to life after being crucified.

As for the prophets, and especially the fella that produced the Book of Revelation, do they stand up to modern medical and psychiatric diagnosis?
  #148  
Old 05-08-2019, 03:35 AM
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It has been said that if god (capitalization of your choice) appeared to us, it would be in a form that we would not recognize. I am not sure if that is a plus or minus for the religious. Historically, man started off with a god that had a visible and recognizable form, anything from anthropomorphic to psychedelic. Then he/she/it became more intangible and the depictions where no longer literal, or in the case of Islam, even permitted. If god is a construct of the mind, can he appear? Or is he an electrochemical artifact in our grey cells? Skipping a long discussion on our perceptions of what reality, and what reality itself is, the point is that the fella at my door claiming to be god / God has a credibility problem.

"I can give you eternal life"
"Uh, great ... maybe. But how would I know?"
"I am almighty and omnipotent"
"That's nice. But why do you allow so much sh!t in the world that you created? That was not nice. Or do you have limits?"
<silence>
  #149  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:30 AM
Novelty Bobble is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brayne Ded View Post
It has been said that if god (capitalization of your choice) appeared to us, it would be in a form that we would not recognize. I am not sure if that is a plus or minus for the religious.
It is just a lazy "out" that is inserted by the religious to allow pretty much anything to labelled as a god, as the mood takes them.

Seems to me that a god of any notable power would be able to appear in a form that would be recognized. After all, have gods not already done that in the past? why not now?

It is almost as if what passed for irrefutable evidence in the past is suddenly impossible to reproduce. How strange, I'm sure it has nothing to do with us replacing ignorance and credulity with science and reason.
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  #150  
Old 05-08-2019, 08:13 AM
MarvinKitFox is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimera View Post
Quite easily.

Heal me.

Mind and body. Cure my mental illness, my physical damage, my diabetes, restore my lost teeth, fix my eyesight, remove my scars, everything.
That would work for me.
Not that it would prove anything about the being, other than extremely powerful abilities.

But from my viewpoint, I am *quite* willing to call anyone/thing that does that for me, "God".
With the uppercase-G
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