Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #301  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:46 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagunathor View Post
5 1/2 months is 22 weeks. As stated above, viability stats at that age are 2-15%, according to the NIH. In what world is 15% more likely than not?
Ummm, 5 1/2 months is closer to 24 weeks. And the original claim was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
She went into labor well before her fetus was independently viable. She miscarried. ...
Which is still wrong even if the chances were only 15%.
  #302  
Old 05-12-2019, 11:54 PM
D'Anconia is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagunathor View Post
5 1/2 months is 22 weeks. As stated above, viability stats at that age are 2-15%, according to the NIH. In what world is 15% more likely than not?
Wait a second. In post # 209, you said it was 2-10%, now you're claiming it's 2-15%. Which is it?
  #303  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:26 AM
Annie-Xmas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 53,278
Abortion relates to adoption in that the people radically opposed to abortion who favor adoption are often radically opposed to same sex marriage and gay adoption. They are the rah-rahs (radically religious) of the argument, favoring adoption but only to the "right" people.

And if they get to change the abortion laws, I believe laws supporting gay rights will be their next target.
  #304  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:32 AM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,449
The topic of this thread is neither adoption nor gay rights.
  #305  
Old 05-13-2019, 08:34 AM
ZPG Zealot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 3,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
. I know a woman who was conceived in a rape and she is one of the nicest and sweetest people I have ever met. I can think of no reason that she deserved to be killed as a baby because her father did a horrible thing.
I know a man who was conceived in rape and he is one of the most viscous and evil people I have ever met, a true sociopath that cannot be changed though therapy. I can think of no reason that he shouldn't have put down before birth like the rabid dog he is, largely because of the genetic contribution from his father.
  #306  
Old 05-13-2019, 10:17 AM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Which is still wrong even if the chances were only 15%.
Is that survival rate dependent on the immediate or near-immediate intervention of late 20th century neonatal medical care? If so, calling this fetus "viable" needs an asterisk, at least.

I could buy that without such intervention, a fetus/baby under these conditions has a small nonzero chance of survival, for what that's worth. It's still a stupid law.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #307  
Old 05-13-2019, 09:00 PM
Shagunathor is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Ummm, 5 1/2 months is closer to 24 weeks. And the original claim was:



Which is still wrong even if the chances were only 15%.
When talking pregnancy 1 month=4 weeks, not 1 calendar month of variable length. This is a standard usage.

If you want to define a 2-15% chance of living after heroic effort as a viable fetus, well, go on with your bad self and let your freak flag fly.
  #308  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:41 PM
nelliebly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,364
And now it's Alabama. The legislature passed it. The governor is expected to sign it.

No six-week window here: abortion is illegal any time from conception onward. Docs get up to 99 years in the slammer for performing one, 10 years for attempting to abort one. No exclusions for rape or incest, but there is one for the life of the mother.

I'm not sure what attempting to perform an abortion means in a practical sense: botching one? Setting up for one? A patient making an appointment for an abortion?
  #309  
Old 05-14-2019, 09:45 PM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 14,033
If pro-lifers wanted Roe to be overturned, shouldn't they be trying to make their laws sound as reasonable and un-onerous as possible? By making it so stark, they make it less likely they'd get what they want.
  #310  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:03 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 36,073
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
I know a man who was conceived in rape and he is one of the most viscous and evil people I have ever met, a true sociopath that cannot be changed though therapy. I can think of no reason that he shouldn't have put down before birth like the rabid dog he is, largely because of the genetic contribution from his father.
To be clear, this is not a pro-choice position. The entire point of the pro-choice position is that the decision to abort or not is up to the mother, and should not be forced upon them by anyone else.

This, on the other hand, is recommending eugenics. It promotes disabling the ability to procreate because someone would pass on "bad genes."

Last edited by BigT; 05-14-2019 at 10:04 PM.
  #311  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:12 PM
BigT's Avatar
BigT is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: "Hicksville", Ark.
Posts: 36,073
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
If pro-lifers wanted Roe to be overturned, shouldn't they be trying to make their laws sound as reasonable and un-onerous as possible? By making it so stark, they make it less likely they'd get what they want.
It is indeed strange. We had all assumed the laws like the 20 weeks restriction or such were designed to try and weaken the law.

All I can think is that they are worried they'll lose the conservative majority in the Supreme Court and so are trying to rush the process. They're afraid they won't have time to gradually wear it away.

Well, that and maybe their base wasn't buying their lesser attempts, and so they're being forced to push through these more radical bills in an attempt to hold onto them. "See, we're finally doing something about that abortion thing you care so much about! Don't you want to stick with us, and not vote for those evil, pro-choice Democrats?"
  #312  
Old 05-14-2019, 10:17 PM
Chessic Sense is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas View Post
They are the rah-rahs (radically religious) of the argument, favoring adoption but only to the "right" people.
I don't know about you, but I'm all for adoption by the wrong people. I mean, why make it easy? Let's throw in a little petty crime, maybe some poverty too. Safe and loving home? Safe OR loving home, I say!
  #313  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:35 PM
raventhief's Avatar
raventhief is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chessic Sense View Post
I don't know about you, but I'm all for adoption by the wrong people. I mean, why make it easy? Let's throw in a little petty crime, maybe some poverty too. Safe and loving home? Safe OR loving home, I say!
She is talking about the "right" people being heterosexual couples. Are you equating homosexuality with petty crimes or "unsafe" home?
  #314  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:14 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,958
Can a fetus get child support payments if it is a person? Also if the mother is not a citizen but the fetus was conceived in the US does that mean the fetus cannot be deported since if it is a person it must be a US citizen?
  #315  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:42 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
And now it's Alabama. The legislature passed it. The governor is expected to sign it.

No six-week window here: abortion is illegal any time from conception onward. Docs get up to 99 years in the slammer for performing one, 10 years for attempting to abort one. No exclusions for rape or incest, but there is one for the life of the mother.

I'm not sure what attempting to perform an abortion means in a practical sense: botching one? Setting up for one? A patient making an appointment for an abortion?
The exception for the life of the mother is meaningless. Women will die because of this law.
  #316  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:25 AM
RTFirefly is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 38,512
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
And now it's Alabama. The legislature passed it. The governor is expected to sign it.

No six-week window here: abortion is illegal any time from conception onward. Docs get up to 99 years in the slammer for performing one, 10 years for attempting to abort one. No exclusions for rape or incest, but there is one for the life of the mother.

I'm not sure what attempting to perform an abortion means in a practical sense: botching one? Setting up for one? A patient making an appointment for an abortion?
Quote:
When Alabama State Sen. Rodger Smitherman, a Democrat, pointed out that the new bill could make it almost impossible to administer IVF—which depends on fertilized eggs—in the state, State Sen. Clyde Chambliss countered: “The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant.”
Link. So a fertilized egg is a person from the moment of conception, as long as it's inside a woman's body. But if it's in a lab, it's not.

I think we can all figure out what that means.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 05-15-2019 at 10:26 AM.
  #317  
Old 05-15-2019, 10:30 AM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 58,746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
Can a fetus get child support payments if it is a person? Also if the mother is not a citizen but the fetus was conceived in the US does that mean the fetus cannot be deported since if it is a person it must be a US citizen?
Now THAT'S an interesting idea and if the law doesn't get shortly clobbered as unconstitutional, I'd like to see someone explore that avenue.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #318  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:45 AM
Annie-Xmas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 53,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by raventhief View Post
She is talking about the "right" people being heterosexual couples. Are you equating homosexuality with petty crimes or "unsafe" home?
The rah-rah's I've talk to equate gays raising children with bad parenting, child abuse and pedophilia.

This law was passed by straight, white, conservative men. Big shock there.
  #319  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:47 AM
nelliebly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
Can a fetus get child support payments if it is a person? Also if the mother is not a citizen but the fetus was conceived in the US does that mean the fetus cannot be deported since if it is a person it must be a US citizen?

Deportation is a federal matter, not a state one. If/when SCOTUS overturns Roe v. Wade, the US Congress would need to pass a law saying a zygote/embryo/fetus cannot be deported in order for that to be the case, and the odds of such a law passing are very slim even if there's a GOP-majority in both houses again: 1) Nobody's going to want to force illegal immigrants to get tested for pregnancy and 2) the GOP generally hates that so-called "anchor babies" are American citizens.
  #320  
Old 05-15-2019, 01:00 PM
UltraVires is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
If pro-lifers wanted Roe to be overturned, shouldn't they be trying to make their laws sound as reasonable and un-onerous as possible? By making it so stark, they make it less likely they'd get what they want.
True. But if the goal is to get Roe overturned, you don't want to spend a bunch of money getting it to the Supreme Court only to have them weasel out and upholding the law by saying it is consistent with Roe/Casey.

This way you get a firm answer from the Court. This law will be immediately enjoined, struck down by the District Court and by the Court of Appeals. Whether the Supreme Court agrees to hear the case will be a good early test of their willingness to address Roe/Casey.

It may be premature though. Roberts is very squishy and I don't trust him as a reliable vote. Kavanaugh is probably still on board, but has shown himself to be very much to the left of Gorsuch.
  #321  
Old 05-15-2019, 01:37 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
I know a man who was conceived in rape and he is one of the most viscous and evil people I have ever met, a true sociopath that cannot be changed though therapy. I can think of no reason that he shouldn't have put down before birth like the rabid dog he is, largely because of the genetic contribution from his father.
How long did you guys date?
  #322  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:05 PM
tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,769

Moderating


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
How long did you guys date?
Out of line.

Drop this tangent.

[ /Moderating ]
  #323  
Old 05-15-2019, 11:12 PM
MEBuckner's Avatar
MEBuckner is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Posts: 12,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
And now it's Alabama. The legislature passed it. The governor is expected to sign it.

No six-week window here: abortion is illegal any time from conception onward. Docs get up to 99 years in the slammer for performing one, 10 years for attempting to abort one. No exclusions for rape or incest, but there is one for the life of the mother.

I'm not sure what attempting to perform an abortion means in a practical sense: botching one? Setting up for one? A patient making an appointment for an abortion?
From the Washington Post:
Quote:
Longtime televangelist Pat Robertson decried Alabama’s new abortion ban as “extreme,” saying on his show on Wednesday that the state legislature has “gone too far.”
Whaaat?!? I mean, daaamn, Alabama, you know you've gone over the top when Pat "The feminist agenda...is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians" fucking Robertson is saying your abortion bill is "extreme" and has "gone too far".

(Also: Pat Robertson is still alive. And still has a TV show! )
__________________
"In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves." -- Carl Sagan

Ceterum censeo imperium Trumpi esse delendam

Last edited by MEBuckner; 05-15-2019 at 11:14 PM.
  #324  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:17 AM
Annie-Xmas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 53,278
So, if a pregnant woman is told she could have a miscarriage if she doesn't go to bed for the next seven months, and she ignores this advice, goes about her daily routine and has a miscarriage, is she guilty of murder. If she's carry three fetuses, guilty of mass murder? Has more than one miscarriage, is she a serial killer?

The mind boggles.
  #325  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:26 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
From the Washington Post:

Whaaat?!? I mean, daaamn, Alabama, you know you've gone over the top when Pat "The feminist agenda...is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians" fucking Robertson is saying your abortion bill is "extreme" and has "gone too far".

(Also: Pat Robertson is still alive. And still has a TV show! )
I checked my calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1.
  #326  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:28 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 9,150
I'd be careful if I were Pat Robertson. The American Taliban (aka Republicans) might jail him and put him under the lash
  #327  
Old 05-16-2019, 08:30 AM
Unreconstructed Man is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
(also alas: Pat robertson is still alive. And still has a tv show! )
Fixed it for you

Last edited by Unreconstructed Man; 05-16-2019 at 08:30 AM.
  #328  
Old 05-16-2019, 09:30 AM
Jeep's Phoenix's Avatar
Jeep's Phoenix is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas View Post
So, if a pregnant woman is told she could have a miscarriage if she doesn't go to bed for the next seven months, and she ignores this advice, goes about her daily routine and has a miscarriage, is she guilty of murder.
To rephrase that a bit...suppose she can't go on bed rest because she has to go to work to pay her bills and afford the health insurance she'll need for the unwanted pregnancy. Or heck, let's assume she does want the pregnancy. Either way, I'm sure there would be plenty of people who would be more than happy to blame her for the miscarriage, since it was "irresponsible" of her to get pregnant in the first place. >.<
  #329  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:06 AM
tomndebb is offline
Mod Rocker
Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: N E Ohio
Posts: 40,769

Moderating


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreconstructed Man View Post
Fixed it for you
No. You violated SDMB rules by messing with a poster's quote. Even innocuous changes are prohibited.
Do not do this again.

[ /Moderating ]
  #330  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:12 AM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 14,033
I still don't get what the architects of the Georgia and Alabama bill think they will achieve with these laws. Do they really think all 5 conservative justices on SCOTUS will pass it?
  #331  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:31 AM
Jeep's Phoenix's Avatar
Jeep's Phoenix is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,586
That's exactly what they're hoping, and it's also why Pat Robertson wasn't happy with the Alabama law - he thinks it's so extreme that the Supreme Court won't accept it as a challenge to Roe.

As much as I like the idea that this country would never ban abortion because its existence is the perfect way to rile up the conservative voting base, I still think the right to abortion is in danger in the US, and I don't think politicians will stop there, as there are plenty of other issues that can be manipulated in just as vile of a manner as they've managed to do with abortion.
  #332  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:37 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I still don't get what the architects of the Georgia and Alabama bill think they will achieve with these laws. Do they really think all 5 conservative justices on SCOTUS will pass it?
Underneath it all, it really should be viewed as a coordinated effort to manifest a White Christian Nationalist movement. The real goal is to overpower their opponents with laws and tactics that polarize people. White Christian Nationalists have essentially achieved minority rule. Their ideas are espoused by maybe 20-30% of the country -- perhaps some elements of their views have broader appeal when watered down, but in their raw form, the Republican policies appeal to a very small minority of people. And yet, here they are in control of a majority of governorships, a majority of state houses, the Senate, the Presidency, and until January of this year, the Congress. They way to achieve minority control is to polarize, which has the effect of getting the tribe to huddle together while simultaneously pushing the other side toward more extreme positions, leaving others in the middle. Polarization in and of itself is one tactic, but ultimately, establishing control and dominance, once in power, is the other. And that is what the Republicans are doing now. They could simply be content with a more popular set of restrictions on abortion, but that's not what this is really about. Via religious fundamentalism, they are attempting to assert power.

They won't stop there.
  #333  
Old 05-16-2019, 10:40 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeep's Phoenix View Post
That's exactly what they're hoping, and it's also why Pat Robertson wasn't happy with the Alabama law - he thinks it's so extreme that the Supreme Court won't accept it as a challenge to Roe.

As much as I like the idea that this country would never ban abortion because its existence is the perfect way to rile up the conservative voting base, I still think the right to abortion is in danger in the US, and I don't think politicians will stop there, as there are plenty of other issues that can be manipulated in just as vile of a manner as they've managed to do with abortion.
Race is another, and I suspect it's a matter of time before we see more overt forms of it. They're starting with "illegals", but it'll some become "immigrants", and discrimination against pretty much anyone on grounds of liberty.
  #334  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:02 PM
poweradd is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Perhaps you could explain how an embryo/fetus/baby can be considered a natural person ONLY if it was conceived through consensual sex by too people who are not too closely related to marry each other. If rape or incest results in a pregnancy, that embryo/fetus/baby is not a natural person?
This drives me insane. I'm as pro-choice as can be, but I actually have more respect for anti-abortion advocates who wouldn't allow exceptions for rape or incest. They are protecting the life of the baby, period. And when it comes to the literal life of the baby vs. the literal life of the mother, they can pick a side in that battle, too.

But these conditions on what type of baby's life is to be protected? Fuck that.

Yeah, I get that babies from incest might be damaged, and carrying a baby that was conceived through rape could be traumatic, but nobody's making women abort these babies, so we trust them to decide for themselves whether to have the baby or not in those situations that "we" have deemed to be troublesome. Seems to me that if she can handle that decision, then she can decide if any baby she's carrying will ruin her life in other ways.

At least the no-exceptions anti-abortion people are honest in what they're doing. Abortion laws with exceptions for rape and incest are worse--they have the veneer of protecting women while in practice disrespecting them. "Yes, you have the choice...as long as it's a choice I agree with."
  #335  
Old 05-16-2019, 01:20 PM
UltraVires is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by poweradd View Post
This drives me insane. I'm as pro-choice as can be, but I actually have more respect for anti-abortion advocates who wouldn't allow exceptions for rape or incest. They are protecting the life of the baby, period. And when it comes to the literal life of the baby vs. the literal life of the mother, they can pick a side in that battle, too.

But these conditions on what type of baby's life is to be protected? Fuck that.

Yeah, I get that babies from incest might be damaged, and carrying a baby that was conceived through rape could be traumatic, but nobody's making women abort these babies, so we trust them to decide for themselves whether to have the baby or not in those situations that "we" have deemed to be troublesome. Seems to me that if she can handle that decision, then she can decide if any baby she's carrying will ruin her life in other ways.

At least the no-exceptions anti-abortion people are honest in what they're doing. Abortion laws with exceptions for rape and incest are worse--they have the veneer of protecting women while in practice disrespecting them. "Yes, you have the choice...as long as it's a choice I agree with."
I don't see it as so heinous. It could be boiled down to the belief that as adults, you understand that sexual intercourse can cause pregnancy if birth control fails or if you don't use it. If that happens, then you have voluntarily created a life, and as adults, it is up to the mother and the father to care for that life.

However, as a society, we will not draft people into parenthood, especially a rape victim. So in that case society will absolve you of that responsibility, even though in the process an innocent life is taken.

In a way, it is crudely similar to a homeowner shooting a burglar. We don't have a penalty of summary execution for burglary, but we make an exception that in that very moment, the terror and safety of the homeowner is paramount to the burglar's life, even if the burglar had no intent to kill. It's not a perfect analogy, but it shows the balancing we do in these things in other areas even involving life.
  #336  
Old 05-16-2019, 02:03 PM
carrps is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
Deportation is a federal matter, not a state one. If/when SCOTUS overturns Roe v. Wade, the US Congress would need to pass a law saying a zygote/embryo/fetus cannot be deported in order for that to be the case, and the odds of such a law passing are very slim even if there's a GOP-majority in both houses again: 1) Nobody's going to want to force illegal immigrants to get tested for pregnancy and 2) the GOP generally hates that so-called "anchor babies" are American citizens.
Re: the bolded:

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/cultur...migrant-women/
  #337  
Old 05-16-2019, 03:57 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I still don't get what the architects of the Georgia and Alabama bill think they will achieve with these laws. Do they really think all 5 conservative justices on SCOTUS will pass it?
most people think the only question is Roberts , the other 4 will very likely OK these laws. Roberts is now considered to be a semi-swing vote now. He upheld Obamacare .
  #338  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:29 PM
Budget Player Cadet's Avatar
Budget Player Cadet is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 9,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I still don't get what the architects of the Georgia and Alabama bill think they will achieve with these laws. Do they really think all 5 conservative justices on SCOTUS will pass it?
Yes. They do.
__________________
"I think if Mrs May actually went and said that there will be a no deal Brexit, there will be a hard border in Ireland, troops are already on the way, we will be dynamiting and flooding the Chunnel this evening and the Royal Navy is patrolling the channel that would be 110 times better than what is happening now." -AK84
  #339  
Old 05-16-2019, 04:51 PM
nelliebly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by carrps View Post
Ugh. My reasoning was that nobody would want to spend the money on pregnancy tests. I didn't consider the less-accurate method of tracking periods. Proof yet again that no matter how low you set the bar, someone will find a way to slither under it.

Thanks for the (disturbing) info.
  #340  
Old 05-16-2019, 05:06 PM
nelliebly is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I don't see it as so heinous. It could be boiled down to the belief that as adults, you understand that sexual intercourse can cause pregnancy if birth control fails or if you don't use it. If that happens, then you have voluntarily created a life, and as adults, it is up to the mother and the father to care for that life.

However, as a society, we will not draft people into parenthood, especially a rape victim. So in that case society will absolve you of that responsibility, even though in the process an innocent life is taken.

In a way, it is crudely similar to a homeowner shooting a burglar. We don't have a penalty of summary execution for burglary, but we make an exception that in that very moment, the terror and safety of the homeowner is paramount to the burglar's life, even if the burglar had no intent to kill. It's not a perfect analogy, but it shows the balancing we do in these things in other areas even involving life.
Suuure. Because no immature eighteen-year-old ever mistakenly believed "you can't get pregnant if" myths or failed to fully comprehend the possibility of a condom breaking. Darn you kids, you quit having sex right now! And abstinence--the only foolproof pregnancy prevention--is incredibly popular among married couples who can't afford or don't want (more) children. If you don't want children, don't have sex. So simple. So unrealistic.

And I don't think "recruit" is the word you're looking for: it's conscript. Georgia's law excludes rape victims who don't report the rape to the police. If you want to stand firm and say, "Well, if it REALLY happened, she ought to go to the cops," then you clearly don't understand the fear of retaliation that rape often entails. So it's not rape victims who are protected; it's those rape victims who report to the cops. Too afraid to do that, and you can consider yourself conscripted--in Georgia, anyway. In Alabama, you're conscripted into parenthood whether you report or not.
  #341  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:08 PM
Boycott is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 25
I agree with this former Georgia governor

Quote:
"I never have believed that Jesus Christ would approve of abortions and that was one of the problems I had when I was president having to uphold Roe v. Wade and I did everything I could to minimize the need for abortions. I made it easy to adopt children for instance who were unwanted and also initiated the program called Women and Infant Children or WIC program that’s still in existence now. But except for the times when a mother’s life is in danger or when a pregnancy is caused by rape or incest I would certainly not or never have approved of any abortions,"
  #342  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:31 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,354
Quote:
“I never have believed that Jesus Christ would approve of abortions”
Never mind whether he’d approve; what would he say about forgiveness? And about, if you will, the relative merits of “judging” and “judging not”? And so on?

Last edited by The Other Waldo Pepper; 05-16-2019 at 07:33 PM.
  #343  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:10 PM
raventhief's Avatar
raventhief is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,792
I don't care if you approve. What I'm after is the autonomy to make my own decision about my own body.
  #344  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:42 AM
Annie-Xmas is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 53,278
If a man rapes an 11 year old girl and gets her pregnant, he'll serve less prison time than the doctor who performs the illegal abortion to save that child's life.

This is what American anti-abortion "justice" has boiled down to.
  #345  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:56 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 9,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
most people think the only question is Roberts , the other 4 will very likely OK these laws. Roberts is now considered to be a semi-swing vote now. He upheld Obamacare .
I don't know what Kavanaugh's published opinions are wrt a abortion, but to date, he has been a mild surprise in a good way. I'm not delusional: I'm sure he has lingering bitterness toward Senate Dems over his confirmation hearings but I think he might surprise us a little on some of the more outrageous state laws. The problem with Georgia's law is that it asserts that a fetus is a person. I have no problem believing that an idiot like Clarence Thomas would buy the idea that a fetus is a natural born person, but I think even some of the other arch-conservatives might get limp defending that one. I could be wrong, though.

I suspect that what WILL happen is that the conservative court, which will probably only get more conservative after Ginsburg leaves, will allow a lot of different kinds of state-issued restrictions, which effectively make abortion so complicated that it becomes de facto illegal in anti-abortion states. The states' rights angle seems to be the safest one.

Having said that, I find it interesting that for as much as we talk about it here, apparently 55% of the American public are totally fine with an abortion ban at six weeks, which I find shocking. But perhaps I shouldn't really be that shocked considering how authoritarian and anti-science our culture has become.

That is why I have pointed out on more than one occasion, it's not just a few bad apples acting badly; our culture itself is identifying more and more with authoritarianism. When an overwhelming majority of the people have a positive view of the military and police forces, and a downright rotten view of the press and the people they elect to office, that's the perfect incubator for authoritarianism. And as we might expect, people are always more willing to regulate the behaviors of other people much more so than they are willing to submit to being regulated. Get used to it, I'm afraid.
  #346  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:58 AM
Jeep's Phoenix's Avatar
Jeep's Phoenix is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 5,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas View Post
This is what American anti-abortion "justice" has boiled down to.
And that is completely, utterly fucked up.

I guess a child doesn't count as an "innocent life" anymore once she's been raped?

Last edited by Jeep's Phoenix; 05-17-2019 at 09:00 AM.
  #347  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:06 AM
puddleglum's Avatar
puddleglum is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a van down by the river
Posts: 6,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas View Post
If a man rapes an 11 year old girl and gets her pregnant, he'll serve less prison time than the doctor who performs the illegal abortion to save that child's life.

This is what American anti-abortion "justice" has boiled down to.
There are no states with a law that would criminalize abortions done to save a mother's life. Any doctor who did an abortion to save a life would not even be arrested.
  #348  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:10 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 60,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
There are no states with a law that would criminalize abortions done to save a mother's life. Any doctor who did an abortion to save a life would not even be arrested.
Who gets to decide if the abortion is necessary? Do you think an 11 year old child would automatically get a pass under Alabama law?
  #349  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:23 AM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Who gets to decide if the abortion is necessary? Do you think an 11 year old child would automatically get a pass under Alabama law?
In Georgia the law says "A physician determines, in reasonable medical judgment, that a medical emergency exists." I'm not familiar enough with the text of Alabama's law.
  #350  
Old 05-17-2019, 10:29 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 60,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
In Georgia the law says "A physician determines, in reasonable medical judgment, that a medical emergency exists." I'm not familiar enough with the text of Alabama's law.
But who judges whether the doctor made a "reasonable medical judgment"?
His peers?
A panel of politicians that oppose abortions?
A panel of doctors appointed by politicians that oppose abortions?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:01 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017