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  #51  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:10 PM
Wesley Clark is offline
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Yet another example of liberal policy being highly popular.

https://www.businessinsider.com/repu...t-rates-2019-5

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The vast majority of Republicans support Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders' plan to cap credit-card interest rates at 15%
Tell me again how liberals are radical because Gingrich made fun of them and now a lot of older people are terrified of the label

God forbid a man who abandoned his wife in the hospital as she was dying of cancer calls you names.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 05-15-2019 at 05:12 PM.
  #52  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:24 PM
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Sure it's popular to cap credit card rates. This is one of those low-hanging fruit items, like guaranteeing young adults can be on their parents' health insurance until age 26.

So why's your screen name "Wesley Clark", same as the NATO general?
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  #53  
Old 05-15-2019, 05:27 PM
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There is a strong progressive wing, there is a strong "traditional liberal" wing. Big deal.
  #54  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:15 PM
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Progressives need to differentiate themselves from internet SJWs. That is, if there's a difference.
...I'm both a proud progressive and an internet SJW. So in my case no difference at all.
  #55  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Why do you go by "Wesley Clark", anyway? He was like the iconic avatar for the hopes and dreams of moderate/pragmatic Dems.
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
So why's your screen name "Wesley Clark", same as the NATO general?
Not quite sure what this has to do with the thread, but please drop this tangent in this one.

[/moderating]
  #56  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Democrats need to find a way to appeal to whites w/o a college education, but I don't know how. Warren talking about a 'right to repair' law might be a good first step, but I really don't know. If the reason rural whites and whites w/o college have been abandoning the democrats is because they reject multiculturalism and the see the democrats as pro-multiculturalism and the GOP as anti-multiculturalism, I don't know if the democrats can win them back.
When I was watching a lot of MSM, I used to think it was anti-multiculturalism, but it didn't make a lot of sense to me. Why should people care about that?

If you believe Andrew Yang, the answer is that 4 million jobs were automated away in the swing states, and there's a direct line between the areas these jobs left and the areas where Trump won. That theory dovetails with Nate Silver's analysis that I got when I clicked a link in the article you linked.

Quote:
Educational attainment may be a better indicator of long-term economic well-being than household incomes. Unionized jobs in the auto industry often pay reasonably well even if they don’t require college degrees, for instance, but they’re also potentially at risk of being shipped overseas or automated.
Half of the people who lost their jobs that got automated away didn't get back into the job market. Of them, half are on disability. [from Yang's stump speech]

The reason they can't get back into the market is that although there are a surplus of job openings, those jobs generally require a college degree. That's why so many of the people in those areas have been left behind.

Many of the people Yang talks to say that the Democrats have left them behind.

Then there are the millions who can see that their jobs are about to be automated away. They will also have a hard time replacing their current jobs at their current salary.

That explanation, more than any other I've heard, makes more sense to me as to why many white people without a college education voted for Trump.

I'm not understanding how the right to repair helps anyone in that demographic, so maybe I'm missing something in that paragraph.

Link to article quoted above: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ote-for-trump/

Last edited by Heffalump and Roo; 05-15-2019 at 06:48 PM. Reason: added a link
  #57  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:54 PM
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How about we don't believe Yang and get a cite for 4M jobs being automated away in the swing states?
  #58  
Old 05-15-2019, 06:59 PM
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Thats a fair argument and one I've heard before. But again various factors come into play:

Why are only white people susceptible to this argument? Blacks and latinos lost their jobs due to automation, they aren't voting for Trump. Black women are one of the most economically insecure demographics out there, but only about 4% of them voted for Trump.

Some studies have found it was fear of cultural change, not economic anxiety that predicted Trump support.

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/fea...ve-voters-2016

Quote:
The results of the study found that fears of economic insecurity or class underrepresentation did not drive voters to support Donald Trump, as public sentiment has believed. Rather, Mutz’s research concluded that a vote for Trump was a vote to re-establish a status hierarchy that existed before the population grew more diverse. In other words, white voters voted to retain a sense of social dominance, and saw the Republican candidate as a force for U.S. dominance in the global political landscape.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.475accf930d1

538 does say economic anxiety played a role though.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...ith-economics/

However I think as a society we just aren't willing to face facts about who we are as Americans. Trump and the GOP are a political movement that reject multiculturalism, support white supremacy and dislike democracy. These aren't bugs, they are features and are a big factor in their support. The south under Jim Crow was a dictatorship to enforce a white ethnostate, and sadly a lot of Americans want a less intense version of that now to maintain social status. Trump and the GOP reject democracy and support social heirarchies.

Right to repair is about farmers. A farmer may buy a tractor but they aren't allowed to repair it, they have to go to a very expensive dealer to fix it even though they could fix it themselves for much cheaper. The law would save farmers money and let them be more independent.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 05-15-2019 at 07:01 PM.
  #59  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Heffalump and Roo View Post
I'm not understanding how the right to repair helps anyone in that demographic, so maybe I'm missing something in that paragraph.
The place where "right to repair" is a really big issue is with farm equipment. Not being able to fix your own iPhone is a pain in the ass. Being forced by law to take your tractor to a certified John Deere repair shop instead of fixing it yourself (or taking it to a repair shop with competitive prices) can make the difference between your farm turning a profit or not.

Not sure if it's a big enough issue to swing a whole demographic, but it's a start.
  #60  
Old 05-15-2019, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Why are only white people susceptible to this argument? Blacks and latinos lost their jobs due to automation, they aren't voting for Trump. Black women are one of the most economically insecure demographics out there, but only about 4% of them voted for Trump.
I'm not sure that's entirely true. From that same Nate Silver article I linked, he notes that Trump also gained with Latinos and African Americans without a college education in some areas.

Quote:
By contrast, Clinton struggled (relatively speaking) in majority-minority communities with lower education levels. Among the 19 majority-minority countries where 15 percent or less of the population has a bachelorís degree, she won by an average of only 7 percentage points, less than Obamaís 10-point average margin of victory in 2012. We need to be slightly careful here because of the potential ecological fallacy ó itís not clear if minority voters shifted away from Clinton in these counties or if the white voters who live there did. Still, Trump probably gained overall among Latino and black voters compared to Romney, and itís worth investigating divisions within those communities instead of treating their votes as monolithic.
The automation argument doesn't apply to all people who are minorities. It only applies to people in those areas affected who don't have a college education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Some studies have found it was fear of cultural change, not economic anxiety that predicted Trump support.

https://penntoday.upenn.edu/news/fea...ve-voters-2016
I've read a lot of articles about the fear of cultural change also. Some of them weren't even about whites. Some of them were saying that it was about what it means to be American. Fareed Zacharias was claiming that America may have been changing too fast for the comfort of some.

There were even some studies that showed that Republicans were just anxious people and were more averse to change than others.

Maybe.

But as I watch the Yang campaign, I see in rallies and online, people claiming to change from Trump supporters to Yang supporters. I realize this is just anecdotal and a really too small sample, but I'm less convinced about the fear of cultural change argument as an overarching reason, as I read their stories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
However I think as a society we just aren't willing to face facts about who we are as Americans. Trump and the GOP are a political movement that reject multiculturalism, support white supremacy and dislike democracy. These aren't bugs, they are features and are a big factor in their support. The south under Jim Crow was a dictatorship to enforce a white ethnostate, and sadly a lot of Americans want a less intense version of that now to maintain social status. Trump and the GOP reject democracy and support social heirarchies.
The other reason I'm less willing to accept this theory wholesale is that there's no way to bridge the divide from that angle. And there are people who profit from dividing people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
Right to repair is about farmers. A farmer may buy a tractor but they aren't allowed to repair it, they have to go to a very expensive dealer to fix it even though they could fix it themselves for much cheaper. The law would save farmers money and let them be more independent.
Thanks. I'm not sure that will do much to change the plight of enough people without college educations, but I think I understand where you were going with it. Hopefully, that proposed legislation will help everyone who can't afford to buy new things or pay someone to repair the old.
  #61  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:13 PM
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The place where "right to repair" is a really big issue is with farm equipment. Not being able to fix your own iPhone is a pain in the ass. Being forced by law to take your tractor to a certified John Deere repair shop instead of fixing it yourself (or taking it to a repair shop with competitive prices) can make the difference between your farm turning a profit or not..
Wait, forced by law? It's not just an issue of maintaining a warranty?

Last edited by CarnalK; 05-15-2019 at 08:14 PM.
  #62  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:58 PM
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Wesley Clark is right. Left wingers I know like to point to the rise of “wrong track” polling numbers in the years leading up to the 2016 election. They insist this is about Wall Street, income inequality, etc. Then I point out to them that those numbers were much more positive for black people. They can never explain this, although some are honest enough to admit the numbers surprise them.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 05-15-2019 at 08:58 PM.
  #63  
Old 05-15-2019, 09:17 PM
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Wait, forced by law? It's not just an issue of maintaining a warranty?

It is — or was — an issue of law because repairing equipment requires circumventing measures in place to prevent tampering, similar to how jailbreaking locked smartphones arguably violated copyright. I believe both jailbreaking phones and hacking farm equipment have come out in the wash as legal, though.
  #64  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:31 AM
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Septimus, I don't see how I could have been clearer than "opening segment". If it had been "buried" for a "minute or two" later in the episode, I would have provided a time to skip to. But in this case, you could have just clicked the link and it would have started playing, maybe after an ad reading or two.
Mea culpa. Though there is more than a minute of talk before the TYT or CNN poll is even mentioned. AND, literally speaking you could have been clearer, e.g. with a sterner admonition in boldface.

Or you could have written: "As Nate Silver points out in his latest podcast, the CNN poll was weighted to cover age groups equally and TYT erred in being confused by CNN's conservative decision to write 'N/A' in some of the small-sample subtabs."

I did listen to the first 20 minutes or so. I agree with the woman who accused leftists of sometimes rejecting empirical fact, much as right-wingers do.
  #65  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:39 AM
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We cool. I'm glad you checked it out. It's a good podcast, one of my favorites.
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