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  #101  
Old 12-28-2018, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
It's difficult to say how the practical governance of the Shire worked, because there seems to be so little of it. The Thain was largely ceremonial, yes, but then the same seems to be true of the Mayor. And the heads of the important families seemed to have authority mostly only over their own families. The only "government employees" we seem to see are the Shirrifs, who by and large do nothing.

I think there might have been some mention of courts, in regards to Lobelia tying up the resolution of Bilbo's estate. But we know nothing about how the judges are chosen.
Perhaps it is some sort of autonomous collective? An anarchosyndicalist commune, where they take it in turns to act as sort of an executive officer for the week...
  #102  
Old 12-28-2018, 07:03 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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I was thinking its kinda weird Aragorn wasnt there to see everyone off at the end (When they leave for Valinor) . And i dont think he is in the book either. Then I thought it was weird Arwen wasn't but I remembered she wasn't as elevated in the book. And decided that visually its a mess if so many people are there saying goodbye. So I wonder if thats the same reason Tolkein kept it to those leaving and the Hobbits.
I think there were two points here:

1) Arwen had already said goodbye to her father, and, by extension, to the Rivendell household elves, in the aftermath of the War. She gets married, chooses to be human, and spends some time in Gondor with her new husband getting things settled in. If they were to come north to see off the Ringbearers, that's just rubbing salt in the wound for her, and for those leaving who are leaving her behind.

2) A very strong line is being drawn here. The people leaving (only Sam, temporarily, Merry and Pippen are there who are not) are the non-humans. Middle-Earth is being left to humanity (yes, there are still ents and dwarves, but ents are dying out, as there are no entlings, and the dwarves are probably dying out as well). So the mortals have no place at the Havens; this isn't about them at all. All the hoopla at Minas Tirith (renamed anew Minas Anor, I think) and the cleanup in The Shire were our last looks at the age to come. The book isn't about the Fourth Age, and the leave-taking of the Ringbearers is essentially the last act of the Third Age.
  #103  
Old 12-28-2018, 07:08 PM
Andy L Andy L is offline
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
The only elected official in the Shire was the Mayor. The Thain, technically the representative of the (absent) King, was a hereditary office. By the time of the War of the Ring it was largely ceremonial. But the most important authority on an daily basis was probably that of the (hereditary) heads of the most important families like the Tooks and Bradybucks. The Shire effectively was an oligarchy.
And Frodo was apparently related to all the important families.
  #104  
Old 12-28-2018, 07:21 PM
Tamerlane Tamerlane is offline
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Only if you're a member of the feudal ruling class (like Aragorn, Elrond, or Frodo) with a vested interest in maintaining your privileged position in society. For pretty much everyone else, keeping things as they are means a lifetime of tedious manual labour with virtually no prospect of social betterment.
Yeah, but you're not thinking this through from a magical Third Age Middle Earth perspective. I mean Aragorn lived to be 210 for chrissakes. He doesn't just think he is better than you, he actually is better than you . Genetically. Filthy, filthy peasants need to accept their lowly lot in life and be happy servitors, like our good man Sam Gamgee.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 12-28-2018 at 07:23 PM.
  #105  
Old 12-28-2018, 08:36 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Tamerlane View Post
Yeah, but you're not thinking this through from a magical Third Age Middle Earth perspective. I mean Aragorn lived to be 210 for chrissakes. He doesn't just think he is better than you, he actually is better than you . Genetically. Filthy, filthy peasants need to accept their lowly lot in life and be happy servitors, like our good man Sam Gamgee.
Sam "the servitor" was elected Mayor of the Shire for seven consecutive seven-year terms. Hardly a lowly lot. Not to mention he was Frodos heir, and was pretty rich. Not to mention 13 kids, so pretty busy, eh?
  #106  
Old 12-28-2018, 08:39 PM
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So he was a very happy servitor.
  #107  
Old 12-28-2018, 09:06 PM
Capn Carl Capn Carl is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
It's difficult to say how the practical governance of the Shire worked, because there seems to be so little of it. The Thain was largely ceremonial, yes, but then the same seems to be true of the Mayor. And the heads of the important families seemed to have authority mostly only over their own families. The only "government employees" we seem to see are the Shirrifs, who by and large do nothing.

I think there might have been some mention of courts, in regards to Lobelia tying up the resolution of Bilbo's estate. But we know nothing about how the judges are chosen.
IIRC, it was the responsibility of the Shirrrifs to collect quality control samples of ale from the various inns.
  #108  
Old 12-29-2018, 01:02 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Sam "the servitor" was elected Mayor of the Shire for seven consecutive seven-year terms. Hardly a lowly lot. Not to mention he was Frodos heir, and was pretty rich. Not to mention 13 kids, so pretty busy, eh?
Yeah, it's quite clear that the Gamgees, at least Sam's branch of the family, inherited the wealth and social status left vacant by the Bilbo/Frodo branch of the Baggins family.

Sam starts out as a "happy servitor" and tries to return to that role at the end of the story, as one-half of Frodo's live-in staff, but he doesn't stay that way. His loyalty and heroism, along with Frodo's grateful recognition of them and Frodo's own abdication of his position in the Shire, effectively achieved Sam's (rather reluctant) promotion to the "upper classes" of hobbitdom.
  #109  
Old 12-29-2018, 08:27 AM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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So Tigger then, basically.
Much less annoying. Goldberry, OTOH...
  #110  
Old 12-29-2018, 12:20 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Much less annoying. Goldberry, OTOH...
Goldberry was annoying?? I mean, yeah, you might find hearing her singing in the rain at 6 am sunrise a bit disturbing, but other than that...
  #111  
Old 12-29-2018, 12:53 PM
jsc1953 jsc1953 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
I think there were two points here:

1) Arwen had already said goodbye to her father, and, by extension, to the Rivendell household elves, in the aftermath of the War. She gets married, chooses to be human, and spends some time in Gondor with her new husband getting things settled in. If they were to come north to see off the Ringbearers, that's just rubbing salt in the wound for her, and for those leaving who are leaving her behind.
More than just rubbing salt; I think Tolkien calls it the bitterest parting in the history of the world, or something like that. Remember that for the elves, there's no such thing as "never see you again." Even death just means a temporary separation; see you in the Halls of Mandos. But Elrond and Arwen have no such assurance. The elves don't know what happens with the Gift of Men (because, neither does Tolkien, or any of us.)
  #112  
Old 01-06-2019, 05:37 PM
Andy L Andy L is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
I think the idea isn't that his memories were "wiped", so much as that he couldn't fit all of them in that mortal frame. Certainly, when he comes back as the White, he seems briefly mentally muddled while he tries to make sense of who he is and was.
Reminds me of a Time Lord's post-regeneration problems (trying to figure out which aspects of his personality fit with the new body).

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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Not really. There's no indication Bilbo or Frodo or even Aragon knew that Gandalf was a Maiar. As far as the hobbits went, he was an old dude "wizard" whose wizarding was mainly fancy fireworks and hanging out with dwarves and elves.

Aragon had a better understanding of how powerful Gandalf was, since as a Ranger he knew about the defeat of the sorcerer in The Hobbit and Gandalf's long life, but I don't think there's any indication he knew Gandalf was a Maiar.
Faramir knew Gandalf's real name (Olorin) - and if he did, then others would. I don't know if knowing the name would be a big enough clue for one of the Elf lords to realize what Gandalf was.
  #113  
Old 01-06-2019, 09:19 PM
Ancient Erudite Ancient Erudite is offline
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At the Council of Elrond it was made clear that the One Ring cannot be kept by Gondor, Elrond or even Tom Bombadil. (Sauron's forces are simply too strong.)

If thrown into the sea, the Ring will eventually be discovered.

It cannot be used for Good.

Therefore the only choice is to throw it into the fires of Mount Doom.
Just getting there will be perilous:

- the Ringwraiths will soon return
- the traitor Saruman is seeking the Ring for himself
- even Gollum is searching for the Ring (and has an affinity for it)

Elrond comments that even if he had a host of Elves, it would not be enough to get through. Speed and secrecy are the only hope.

Hence the Fellowship.

A couple of further comments:

- yes, Gandalf is an Istari (a Maiar) ... but his power is limited and is best suited to bringing hope to inspire others
- Aragorn's sword Narsil has not been reforged at this point
- The Steward of Gondor (Denethor) has been severely weakened by glimpsing Sauron through a Palantir and his son Boromir mistakenly believes the Ring should be used
- the party never intended to enter Moria (and risk meeting a Balrog) ... it was Saruman's weather magic on Caradhras that forced the Fellowship to take that route
- I expect Gandalf would consider avoiding the Black Gate (although there are obvious dangers in passing by Minas Morgul)
I do like the movie and the books, but one flaw remains. Gandalf could have used a fleet of giant Eagles, fly high over the black gate, and into mount doom, where he could have dropped the ring into the fire.

But then again there would not be much of a movie or book.
  #114  
Old 01-06-2019, 09:29 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
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Reality.
  #115  
Old 01-06-2019, 09:38 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Ancient Erudite View Post
I do like the movie and the books, but one flaw remains. Gandalf could have used a fleet of giant Eagles, fly high over the black gate, and into mount doom, where he could have dropped the ring into the fire.

But then again there would not be much of a movie or book.
No, that has been debunked time after time.

First of all, Sauron would have seen them coming, and sent thousands of archers, nine ringwraiths- and most importantly, Sauron's full Will against them. It would have been a slaughter.

And Gandalf could not hold the Ring that long, nor could pretty much anyone but a Hobbit. So, you have the problem of getting there, and who is gonna drop the Ring? And if they miss? oops. So, you'd have to land, under fire, and walk the Ring in and drop it.

https://geekandsundry.com/heres-why-...ing-to-mordor/
https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-the-...g-into-Mt-Doom
https://eldorion.wordpress.com/lore/eagles/
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