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Old 01-04-2019, 10:49 AM
Quimby Quimby is offline
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So now Loki really wasn't evil...

Marvel has retconned The Avengers (2012) to say that Loki really wasn't evil but that the Mind Stone was actually effecting him as well amplifying his hatred of Thor and Earth.

Kind of a cop out but more evidence (as I have written for a few years now) that a Loki movie is coming (softening the character to make him an more an anti hero). But he's dead you say? Please. The events of Infinity War are going to be mostly undone this April.
  #2  
Old 01-04-2019, 11:02 AM
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It would not be the first timer Marvel rehabilitated a bad guy. The Black Widow, Hawkeye, Wonder Man, the Punisher, Sabertooth, and Venom all started out as villains.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:03 AM
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No, he's definitely evil. But he's evil within normal parameters.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:05 AM
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Not a movie but a TV show.
https://io9.gizmodo.com/its-official...-it-1830322223

Forgive the messy link. I'm on my phone and can't format properly.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:05 AM
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Marvel has retconned The Avengers (2012) to say that Loki really wasn't evil but that the Mind Stone was actually effecting him as well amplifying his hatred of Thor and Earth.

Kind of a cop out but more evidence (as I have written for a few years now) that a Loki movie is coming (softening the character to make him an more an anti hero). But he's dead you say? Please. The events of Infinity War are going to be mostly undone this April.
Not his own movie, but his own TV show.

The new Disney streaming service is planning on having Marvel mini-series' around their MCU characters (starring their on-screen actors) and the two rumored (maybe announced?) are a Loki and Scarlet Witch series.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:08 AM
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I always appreciated comic movies because unlike the comics proper, they could kill someone really most sincerely dead. And villains stayed villains, and good guys were good.

Now even that distinction is gone. Le sigh.

Is Cap going to be in Hydra now?
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:17 AM
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There really wasn't much need, everyone loves him anyway.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:24 AM
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No, he's definitely evil. But he's evil within normal parameters.
Amoral with a wicked sense of humor.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:26 AM
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Is Cap going to be in Hydra now?
This is a woosh referring to what Marvel did to him last year, right?
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:32 AM
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In Norse mythology, Loki was always more of a trickster than some malevolent entity.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:09 PM
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This is a woosh referring to what Marvel did to him last year, right?
Yep!
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:15 PM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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In Norse mythology, Loki was always more of a trickster than some malevolent entity.
Indeed, more asshole than villain. He's the sort that knows he's a hypocrite, knows everyone ELSE is a hypocrite and delights in showing that off. A trickster god - Loki, Coyote, Anansi et al - should be in a pantheon to be continually showing that not only does the emperor have no clothes but that no one does.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:05 PM
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In Norse mythology, Loki was always more of a trickster than some malevolent entity.
I remember being irritated when it was suggested that Black Widow had tricked him into revealing information. Loki is the literal god of tricksters, he should be able to manipulate her like Silly Putty.

I suppose arguably he WAS manipulating her, but his plan was so crazy-convoluted that I'm honestly not sure what exactly it was.
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Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 01-04-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 05:39 PM
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This isn't as out-of-the-blue as the article says. It was set up in the movie.

We saw that Hawkeye was mind controlled. And how did he snap out of it? With a sharp blow to the head.

Who else got a sharp blow to the head and then announced he was no longer interested in fighting?
  #15  
Old 01-04-2019, 06:56 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Indeed, more asshole than villain. He's the sort that knows he's a hypocrite, knows everyone ELSE is a hypocrite and delights in showing that off. A trickster god - Loki, Coyote, Anansi et al - should be in a pantheon to be continually showing that not only does the emperor have no clothes but that no one does.
Loki in the sagas has some evil aspects. As I recall, it's he who hands Hod the dart made of mistletoe and aims his throw at Baldur, resulting in Baldur's death. He also precludes Baldur's return from the underworld by refusing to mourn Baldur while in disguise as a giantess. That's a bit more than just trickster Loki at play. IIRC, the death of Baldur heralds the coming of Ragnarök.
  #16  
Old 01-05-2019, 02:50 AM
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Loki in the sagas has some evil aspects. As I recall, it's he who hands Hod the dart made of mistletoe and aims his throw at Baldur, resulting in Baldur's death. He also precludes Baldur's return from the underworld by refusing to mourn Baldur while in disguise as a giantess. That's a bit more than just trickster Loki at play. IIRC, the death of Baldur heralds the coming of Ragnarök.
He and Heimdall also killed each other at Ragnarok. However, Loki made the deal with the giant who erected Asgard's walls and then copulated with his horse so he couldn't marry Freya. He gave Sliepnir, the eight-legged horse that came of this union, to Odin.

Loki cut off Sif's hair, but restored it and gave Odin his spear and Frey the magical boat.

He helped Thor rescue Mjolnir from the giants. From what I've read of Norse mythology, Odin and Thor certainly didn't mind venturing with him.

I once read an article in Dragon magazine in which the author contended that Loki's alignment should be chaotic neutral rather than chaotic evil. The author contended Loki was a trickster who only turned evil at Ragnarok, possibly because of his treatment by the other gods.

Last edited by The_Peyote_Coyote; 01-05-2019 at 02:51 AM.
  #17  
Old 01-05-2019, 03:11 AM
The_Peyote_Coyote The_Peyote_Coyote is offline
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I might add that I prefer Walt Simonson's version of Loki in the 1980's Thor. Loki was more evil than the entire Trump Administration and a master schemer/magician to boot.

Last edited by The_Peyote_Coyote; 01-05-2019 at 03:11 AM.
  #18  
Old 01-05-2019, 05:45 AM
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Loki in Norse mythology is a trickster and a catalyst - without him there would be no fishing nets, no Thor's hammer, no Sleipnir, on and on... But he violated all sorts of norms (like changing gender - Loki gave birth to Sleipnir) and was exceedingly good at pissing people off or getting himself into trouble. Which is sort of typical of Tricksters, but he's a bit more antagonistic than many.
  #19  
Old 01-05-2019, 12:22 PM
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He helped Thor rescue Mjolnir from the giants.
That's always been one of my favorite Norse myths--one of the only laugh-out-loud stories in the rather grim Norse canon.

I like to think that that's the reason for the Jotun's line in the first Thor movie: "Run back home, little princess." And why Loki knew it would set Thor off. ("...Damn.")
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Old 01-05-2019, 02:34 PM
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Loki killed Coulson. Fuck Loki.
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  #21  
Old 01-05-2019, 04:49 PM
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Loki killed Coulson. Fuck Loki.
Mind-controlled Loki killed Son of Coul.
  #22  
Old 01-05-2019, 05:16 PM
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Mind-controlled people generally had blacked-out eyes. Loki's eyes appeared normal throughout the movie.
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Old 01-05-2019, 07:49 PM
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I like the idea questioning the very existence of Evil. IMHO "Evil" is just shorthand for, "I don't like what that person does, and I don't care to understand the motivation." The Loki archetype openly mocks and abuses that lack of empathy.
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  #24  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:36 PM
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Mind-controlled people generally had blacked-out eyes. Loki's eyes appeared normal throughout the movie.
Mind controlled humans.
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Old 01-05-2019, 08:39 PM
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I remember being irritated when it was suggested that Black Widow had tricked him into revealing information. Loki is the literal god of tricksters, he should be able to manipulate her like Silly
I disagree, he underestimated her. Was it inevitable? No, but in this case, she beat him.
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Old 01-05-2019, 11:16 PM
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Mind-controlled people generally had blacked-out eyes. Loki's eyes appeared normal throughout the movie.
The people we saw in the movie were mind controlled by Loki. If Loki was mind controlled, it was done by Thanos or somebody else, who may have been able to do it without any visual effects.
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Old 01-07-2019, 05:23 PM
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Until they say otherwise, I'm not assuming he was being "controlled" by anybody, but more like the Mind Stone itself was corrupting him -- like its very nature will bend its holder towards seeking power.
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Old 01-07-2019, 07:41 PM
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Right, because Loki needed so much bending for that.
  #29  
Old 01-07-2019, 09:10 PM
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Right, because Loki needed so much bending for that.
Well, it may have been a short walk for him, true.
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:21 AM
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Until they say otherwise, I'm not assuming he was being "controlled" by anybody, but more like the Mind Stone itself was corrupting him -- like its very nature will bend its holder towards seeking power.
1 mindstone to rule them all?
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:27 AM
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1 mindstone to rule them all?
Pretty much, although wasn't the implication that the One Ring was corrupting because of Sauron's direct influence?

My personal thoughts about the Mind Store is that there isn't necessarily a consciousness behind it, but more like an artifact with that power will "naturally" cause a power-hunger feedback loop in its user.

I could also see it as a case where, if Loki had chosen to use it benevolently, it would have made HIM more benevolent. So his evil actions WERE made worse by it, but only because he chose to take the first step down that path. Actually could make an interesting moral quandary, that.
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Old 01-08-2019, 11:58 AM
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Until they say otherwise, I'm not assuming he was being "controlled" by anybody, but more like the Mind Stone itself was corrupting him -- like its very nature will bend its holder towards seeking power.
FWIW that is what the link says they are saying happened. The same way it made the Avengers aggressive against each other it made Loki aggressive. Of course it ignores the fact that for a big chunk of the movie he didn't have the mind stone on his person.
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Old 01-08-2019, 12:39 PM
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Loki is the literal god of tricksters, he should be able to manipulate her like Silly Putty.
Usually. However, tricking the trickster god is also a trope. Trickster gods play games that they could lose (because it's more fun that way), and they rarely do, but it does happen.
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Old 01-08-2019, 05:12 PM
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The Mind Stone's incidental contact with Ultron resulted in him being evil, but it being completely embedded into Vision's brain resulted in him being good. It's not consistent (unless it does just magnify whatever's there, but then we need to track down the seed of evil in Ultron).
  #35  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:50 AM
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The Mind Stone's incidental contact with Ultron resulted in him being evil, but it being completely embedded into Vision's brain resulted in him being good. It's not consistent (unless it does just magnify whatever's there, but then we need to track down the seed of evil in Ultron).
Ultron really was a case of 'AI taking its parameters too literally': he's saving the world, by destroying humanity, bringing about 'peace in our time', whatever exactly the goal was. So that's not evil, per se, but one could argue that there is a seed of motivation that got perverted.

Regardless, I think the change to Loki's character cheapens him. It robs him of agency. It's a cash grab exploiting the character's popularity, but part of that popularity was that he's not a good guy. It's a cheap way of reformation: look here, he was never really evil in the first place!

It would've been much more interesting to go forward with him as a character who's done heinous stuff, and who might do so again, but with whom one must find some way of collaborating, rather than gutting his core motivation.
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Old 01-09-2019, 09:56 AM
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So how does all this explain what a dick Loki was in Thor, up to and including sending the Destroyer to kill Thor, the Warriors Three, and an entire town in New Mexico?
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:26 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
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Loki is motivated by jealousy of Thor and really breathtaking levels of parent issues.

Plus, hey. He's not an idiot. From any real analytical point of view he knows Thor will succeed to the throne and he also knows that Thor - especially at the beginning of the first Thor movie - is a damn meathead who couldn't rule Asgard wisely. Combine that with his trickster nature and things go south.

Remember, too, that Asgardians seem to have an...interesting...approach to deadly situations. Thor's bit about Loki turning into a snake to try to bite him is some sort of one-off not worth mentioning except as an anecdote. Also, 'he's been dead before' so for all we know Asgardians do that sort of thing all the time.

Or Thor's just become numb to Loki's curlicue thought processes.
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Old 01-09-2019, 10:49 AM
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The Loki of Avengers alway seemed to me to be acting out a spoiled brat tantrum. He didn't get his way in Thor, so, as Thor himself surmises, he takes out his unhappiness at losing the throne of Asgard by dumping all over Thor's adopted pet world. He's got visions (delusions, really) of grandeur, which, of course, are all gone at the movie's end, by which time he's like, "Ok, well, that didn't work, my bad, terribly sorry, hope you don't mind too much."

His character underwent a significant evolution by Thor 2, and in that film and succeeding appearances, he was played more as someone you can't trust, because he's always trying to secretly get ahead, but not particularly "evil". I thought the way they had him behave at the beginning of Avengers: Infinity War was particularly poorly written; he seems to be teetering between his usual impish self and some sort of overly noble person, with some really cheesy dialog and poorly directed scenes.
  #39  
Old 01-09-2019, 10:49 AM
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Yeah, what makes Loki interesting is that he's definitely evil, but despite that he can still sometimes be an ally.

Jonathan Chance, you certainly can't draw any sort of comparison between what's normal for Asgardians in general, and what's normal for Loki. Thor is used to brothers trying to kill each other, not because he's Asgardian, but because he's Loki's brother.
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Old 01-09-2019, 11:15 AM
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Well, fair enough. But even for that dynamic 'you tried to kill me!' would stand out somehow. Normally, that's one of those can't-take-back things that you'd take seriously.

Or does Thor have some sort of twisted Stockholm syndrome thing from being associated with Loki for too long?
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