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  #5501  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:32 AM
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Alessan Alessan is offline
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Originally Posted by Gyrate View Post
Aaand Belkar gets another inadvertent shove toward the Light Side of the Force.
Belkar, IMHO, has been a hard CG for a while now, and he’s edging toward CG.

My guess: when he’ dies, Thor will be there to welcome him to Valhalla, where he can fight, drink and party for all eternity.

Last edited by Alessan; 01-09-2019 at 11:34 AM.
  #5502  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:24 PM
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Alessan, was that first one supposed to be CN (Chaotic Neutral)?
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  #5503  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:50 PM
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Aaand Belkar gets another inadvertent shove toward the Light Side of the Force.
A big step. While it was shown in an understated way, this strip was probably as big a turning point as Durkon's revival.
  #5504  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:52 PM
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Belkar would be Durkon's fourth choice from among the party? Who comes after him?

I'd have expected the list to go something like Roy, Haley, Elan, Vaarsuvius, Scruffy, Blackwing, Belkar.
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Elan, most likely.
I'm guessing Vaarsuvius. We've seen that Durkon argues with V over the differences in their respective philosophies of life.
  #5505  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:16 PM
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I'm guessing Vaarsuvius. We've seen that Durkon argues with V over the differences in their respective philosophies of life.
You might well be right; Durkon doesn't know about V's deal with the Three and his conversation with Roy, does he?
  #5506  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:20 PM
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Belkar might be Chaotic Neutral, and he's certainly more Good now than he used to be, but he's not Good. Consider, for instance, that his primary entertainment is still killing. He might be OK with restricting himself to only killings that Roy approves of, but enjoying killing for its own sake really isn't a Good attitude.
  #5507  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:11 PM
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A big step. While it was shown in an understated way, this strip was probably as big a turning point as Durkon's revival.
Yup.

I guess we are getting close to his death.
  #5508  
Old 01-09-2019, 11:39 PM
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Yup.

I guess we are getting close to his death.
Shouldn't be more than a week or so. The Godsmoot was on the Solstice, and the New Year should be something like eight or nine days later. Which should still probably take Burlew the next book to cover.

I liked Chronos's take on the death prophecy, which was, paraphrasing from memory, that Burlew would subvert our expectations for it by following it exactly. And that would take place near the end of the final story.

I forget, what's Word of God for Shojo's alignment? I vaguely remember CG, but CN wouldn't surprise me that much. We know from Belkar's illusion sequence in the Pyramid that he'd like nothing better than to hang out with Shojo, probably for all time. Odds he can shift his afterlife fate that far? I still think Death's Lil Helper is CE---the Pro Evil clasp still burns him---but maybe he's closer to CN now than he thinks?
  #5509  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:38 AM
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Everyone knows that Chaotic Neutral is just CE that the DM will let you play at the table
  #5510  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:04 PM
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You might well be right; Durkon doesn't know about V's deal with the Three and his conversation with Roy, does he?
I don't think so. But Vaarsuvius is generally neutral on alignment issues; V just seeks knowledge and power and is indifferent to the morality of obtaining them.

Somebody like Durkon, who is firmly committed to good, might find a person who is committed to evil less distasteful than a person who doesn't think good and evil are important concepts.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 01-10-2019 at 01:05 PM.
  #5511  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:14 PM
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Shouldn't be more than a week or so. The Godsmoot was on the Solstice, and the New Year should be something like eight or nine days later. Which should still probably take Burlew the next book to cover.

I liked Chronos's take on the death prophecy, which was, paraphrasing from memory, that Burlew would subvert our expectations for it by following it exactly. And that would take place near the end of the final story.
I'm sticking with my long-standing prediction that Belkar won't die before there's a confrontation with Roy. Roy has known about the prophecy of Belkar's death for months (or whatever amount of time it's been in story) but has chosen to keep using Belkar without warning him. That's pretty far from good.

There's been way too much foreshadowing for there not to be a pay-off. At some point, Roy will have to answer for this. The most obvious way will be for Belkar to find out and confront Roy over his callous disregard for Belkar's life.
  #5512  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:16 PM
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I forget, what's Word of God for Shojo's alignment? I vaguely remember CG, but CN wouldn't surprise me that much. We know from Belkar's illusion sequence in the Pyramid that he'd like nothing better than to hang out with Shojo, probably for all time. Odds he can shift his afterlife fate that far? I still think Death's Lil Helper is CE---the Pro Evil clasp still burns him---but maybe he's closer to CN now than he thinks?
<Snipped to cover the first question, specifically.>

I don't know if Burlew has canonically established Shojo's alignment, but Belkar believes that it's Chaotic Good, where he gets to spend the afterlife sipping single-malt Scotch and smoking cigars rolled out of badly-worded legal documents.

As far as Belkar's illusion sequence, it could be argued that that vision was as much Mr. Scruffy's as it was Belkar's.
  #5513  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:22 PM
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On that note, what other as-yet-unresolved plot lines are there?

I'm not talking the obvious stuff like defeating Hel and Xykon. Those plots are being worked on. I'm talking plotlines that Burlew has brought up and then put aside for later resolution.

1. The aforementioned issue of Roy keeping the prophecy of Belkar's death secret.
2. Haley's background.
3. The confrontation between Xykon and Redcloak. Presumably with the MitD's attack on Redcloak.
4. Sabine's return to seek revenge for Nale.
5. The Holey Brotherhood?
  #5514  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:30 PM
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What's unresolved about Haley's background?
  #5515  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:38 PM
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I really think The Holey Brotherhood was just a throwaway gag in The Order of the Scribble's backstory, and that they were defeated by Soon's party, which put up a gate despite their objections.
  #5516  
Old 01-10-2019, 01:46 PM
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I'm not talking the obvious stuff like defeating Hel and Xykon. Those plots are being worked on. I'm talking plotlines that Burlew has brought up and then put aside for later resolution.
V and the Directors, obviously. Well, I say "obviously" but it's not a top line event like Xykon/Hel where the party is actively doing it. More like it's a thing you know if going to have to happen regardless of the party.

Some people might say the Sphinx pox although I saw that as a strip gag and not an actual plot point.

Last edited by Jophiel; 01-10-2019 at 01:48 PM.
  #5517  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:09 PM
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On that note, what other as-yet-unresolved plot lines are there?

I'm not talking the obvious stuff like defeating Hel and Xykon. Those plots are being worked on. I'm talking plotlines that Burlew has brought up and then put aside for later resolution.

1. The aforementioned issue of Roy keeping the prophecy of Belkar's death secret.
2. Haley's background.
3. The confrontation between Xykon and Redcloak. Presumably with the MitD's attack on Redcloak.
4. Sabine's return to seek revenge for Nale.
5. The Holey Brotherhood?
Whatever plan the Three Fiends have, which was covered by Jophiel's point immediately above. What's going to happen with Gobbotopia. What, if anything, is Tarquin's group going to do vis a vis the Order and the main plot. What is the world in the rift.

Oh, what is V going to do about atoning for killing off 30% of black dragon-kind?
  #5518  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:11 PM
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What's unresolved about Haley's background?
Maybe the whole 'her dad and Amun-Zora going to get vengeance on Tarquin?' Though I could see that ending up the same way Burlew tidied up the whole 'Resistance' storyline.
  #5519  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:11 PM
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Somebody like Durkon, who is firmly committed to good, might find a person who is committed to evil less distasteful than a person who doesn't think good and evil are important concepts.
And I give you his friendship with Malack.
  #5520  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:20 PM
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I'm sticking with my long-standing prediction that Belkar won't die before there's a confrontation with Roy. Roy has known about the prophecy of Belkar's death for months (or whatever amount of time it's been in story) but has chosen to keep using Belkar without warning him. That's pretty far from good.

There's been way too much foreshadowing for there not to be a pay-off. At some point, Roy will have to answer for this. The most obvious way will be for Belkar to find out and confront Roy over his callous disregard for Belkar's life.
Doesn't Belkar already sort of know? I vaguely remember Roy and Haley accidentally spilling the news in front of Belkar and Belkar acted like he was blowing it off? It wouldn't surprise me if, in the middle of Roy having a dramatic moment with telling Belkar the bad news, that Belkar reveals he knew about the prophecy all along.

But if there's a dramatic confrontation, for what purpose do you think Burlew would use the scene? To motivate Belkar in making whatever heroic sacrifice we think will be in the climax of the next book? To give Belkar an opportunity to show forgiveness? Maybe make Belkar realize how bad it is to use people in that way?

I agree with you, I think a revelation like that's coming. I'm just curious what we think Burlew would do with a scene like that.
  #5521  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:23 PM
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I'm sticking with my long-standing prediction that Belkar won't die before there's a confrontation with Roy. Roy has known about the prophecy of Belkar's death for months (or whatever amount of time it's been in story) but has chosen to keep using Belkar without warning him. That's pretty far from good.

There's been way too much foreshadowing for there not to be a pay-off. At some point, Roy will have to answer for this. The most obvious way will be for Belkar to find out and confront Roy over his callous disregard for Belkar's life.
What strip had that prophecy?
  #5522  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:48 PM
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What strip had that prophecy?
#572 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html
  #5523  
Old 01-10-2019, 02:52 PM
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What's unresolved about Haley's background?
This isn't more of the "I might not be exactly what you'd call___" thing, is it? Because that's the only thing I remember where people were speculating about her background being a Plot Point, because nothing's too crazy for an OOTS fan to theorize about.

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What strip had that prophecy?
572

EDIT: ninja'd

Last edited by Malleus, Incus, Stapes!; 01-10-2019 at 02:53 PM.
  #5524  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:01 PM
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And I give you his friendship with Malack.
Durkon wasn't aware that Malack was evil; at their tea time, Malack says that in his pantheon Death was not an innately evil concept. Between that, his aid in Durkon's spell research and Malack's hatred for Nale, he probably assumed Lawful Neutral.
  #5525  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:12 PM
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Unresolved:

1) the love triangle between Redcloak's niece, Fryon's son, and Jiminy
2) has Jiminy gotten any polearms in his shop yet?
  #5526  
Old 01-10-2019, 03:49 PM
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Durkon wasn't aware that Malack was evil; at their tea time, Malack says that in his pantheon Death was not an innately evil concept. Between that, his aid in Durkon's spell research and Malack's hatred for Nale, he probably assumed Lawful Neutral.
Quite possibly though having been taught about the other pantheons he would have known that Nergal was Evil.
  #5527  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:15 PM
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He didn't even have enough Knowledge: Religion to realize that Loki was evil.

As for a confrontation between Belkar and Roy, I expect something like this:
Belkar: What!? Why didn't you tell me?
Roy: Because you're an evil psychopathic murderer that I've only barely managed to keep under some semblance of control.
Belkar: Eh, fair enough.

I will confess, though, that I'm a bit surprised that Belkar hasn't already died. His death has to be at some dramatic moment, right? But what would have been more dramatic than dying during the resolution to Durkon's vampirization, given Belkar's involvement in it? Probably too late for that now, though, since that's now mostly resolved (there's still the Exarch to mop up, but that should be anticlimactic compared to the battle vs. Not-Durkon).
  #5528  
Old 01-10-2019, 04:17 PM
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Probably too late for that now, though, since that's now mostly resolved (there's still the Exarch to mop up, but that should be anticlimactic compared to the battle vs. Not-Durkon).
Which means it would be the perfect place to have it happen.
  #5529  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:50 PM
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Alessan, was that first one supposed to be CN (Chaotic Neutral)?
Yeah. Typo.

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Belkar might be Chaotic Neutral, and he's certainly more Good now than he used to be, but he's not Good. Consider, for instance, that his primary entertainment is still killing. He might be OK with restricting himself to only killings that Roy approves of, but enjoying killing for its own sake really isn't a Good attitude.
If being good means you can't enjoy killing bad guys, then there hasn't been a good player character in the history of D&D.
  #5530  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:54 PM
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Quite possibly though having been taught about the other pantheons he would have known that Nergal was Evil.
Nah. Malack tells him that Nergal isn't necessarily evil, nor are his clerics and that they're actually more Neutral. Obviously that doesn't hold for vampires but Durkon was unaware of Malack having that particular condition.

As Chronos pointed out, Durkon isn't even especially sharp about his own pantheon, much less those in other parts of the world.
  #5531  
Old 01-10-2019, 05:55 PM
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What's unresolved about Haley's background?
What is it that Haley may not exactly be? It's a secret that even Vaarsuvius doesn't know. And who are Kyran, Rachel, and all the others?
  #5532  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:14 PM
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What, if anything, is Tarquin's group going to do vis a vis the Order and the main plot.
Actually, I tend to think that Tarquin's story is done. He's served his purpose.

The key characteristic with Tarquin was that he saw events as a narrative but he imagined himself as one of the central figures in the narrative. He figured his son Elan was the main protagonist and he himself was the main antagonist. He dismissed Roy and Xykon as just being secondary characters in "his" story. As Julio told him "You always think that everything that happens is about you."

I think Burlew used Tarquin to mock the attitude that's common in D&D gaming and fiction in general of treating the central characters of the story as if they live in a different plane of existence from everyone else. A thousand nameless NPC's can die and nobody gives it a thought. But if a main character dies, it's treated as a world-shaking event.

Burlew would want you to remember that none of those thousand nameless NPC's thought of themselves as a minor character. They all would have had lives that were just as important to them as the main character's life was to him. Everyone is the center of their own epic lifelong story and nobody gets to decide that they're the main character and their life has more meaning than everyone else's.

So dropping Tarquin out of the story and never having him reappear, while he was protesting about not having a satisfying resolution, would be his resolution.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 01-10-2019 at 06:15 PM.
  #5533  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:21 PM
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I really think The Holey Brotherhood was just a throwaway gag in The Order of the Scribble's backstory, and that they were defeated by Soon's party, which put up a gate despite their objections.
I might think so too if the Holey Brotherhood had just appeared that one time.

But check out the mysterious cloaked figure in these strips. He's there in the middle of one of the major climatic scenes of the story but he appears to be separate from the crowd with no explanation given as to who he is or why he's there.
  #5534  
Old 01-10-2019, 06:53 PM
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He's a paladin of the Sapphire Guard, and is exactly as significant as any of the other paladins of the Sapphire Guard we've seen. Remember, the first time we saw Miko, she was wearing a similar cloak.
  #5535  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:33 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is online now
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And then Belkar wore a similar cloak. It seems it's a fairly common item of clothing.
  #5536  
Old 01-10-2019, 07:33 PM
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He didn't even have enough Knowledge: Religion to realize that Loki was evil.
Whether Loki is CN or CE has been argued at length on the GiantITP forum - and elsewhere. That Hilgya is CE is now undoubted.
  #5537  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:11 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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He's a paladin of the Sapphire Guard, and is exactly as significant as any of the other paladins of the Sapphire Guard we've seen. Remember, the first time we saw Miko, she was wearing a similar cloak.
Might have even been TWO Paladins of the Sapphire Guard. The one in #448 has no stripe at the hem of his cloak (and is corporeal). The one in #459 has the stripe (and is incorporeal).

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 01-10-2019 at 08:11 PM.
  #5538  
Old 01-10-2019, 08:50 PM
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Belkar, IMHO, has been a hard CG for a while now, and hes edging toward CG.
He was still being hurt by his Protection from Evil brooch twenty strips ago, so he can't have been CN for all that long.
  #5539  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:14 PM
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I think the current strip (1151) pushed him over the CE-CN boundary. Just the unprompted apology is evidence, but to be certain we'll have to wait until he activates the cloak clasp again. Which he'll probably do in the upcoming battle with the remaining vampires. I predict a massive thread/argument on the GitP forum when that happens.*



* I don't know about anyone else, but I am thoroughly sick of alignment arguments, of which they have a surfeit on the other forum.
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