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  #51  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:47 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by silenus View Post
Shooting hoops for Villanova?


With cruel runes across his sweatshirt.
  #52  
Old 01-10-2019, 10:58 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
I've heard that argument about Aragorn and I quibble with the part of "The idea of him".

Aragorn is the King. The heir of Isildur. Aragorn is a BFD. Aragorn IS the idea of him. He's legion. He contains worlds. You can't put Aragorn on a pedestal.

I also think he loves her. (Im not going to argue with the difference between 'love' and 'in love') What's not to love. Anyone would love her. "From the moment i met you, I've wished you nothing but joy" is a fancy way of saying you love someone.

BUT...of course he belongs to another. And he has a lot of duties.
Sorry, but Aragorn doesn't "love" Eowyn. Remember, to him she is but a child; she was born in 2995 T.A., and that means he was already 64 when she was born. Hell, her FATHER was just a young 'un when he was serving King Thengel of Rohan as Thorongil.

She cannot "love" him because she's spent essentially no time with him. She doesn't know his habits, his manners, his thoughts, etc. He shows up at her home, helps Gandalf heal her foster-father the King, and by the next day, is riding off with the host to do battle with Saruman's forces. She sees him briefly again when he returns to Dunharrow, before he heads off on the Paths of the Dead. She's not in love with him at all.

But she THINKS she's in love with "him", meaning she thinks he's an amazing man, a future King, mighty, puissant, wise, etc. She longs for such a person to take her away from the squalor of her own little kingdom, which she has seen fall into decay. She aches to follow him on the Paths of the Dead, not because of love of a woman for a man, but because of the love of a shieldmaiden for someone who will lead her to glorious victory.
  #53  
Old 01-10-2019, 11:23 PM
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Aragorn certainly doesn't feel romantic love towards Eowyn. He might feel something like paternal love, though.

Such an overloaded word "love" is.
  #54  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Dale Sams View Post
"From the moment i met you, I've wished you nothing but joy" is a fancy way of saying you love someone.
Nah. It's a fancy way of saying, "You're like a sister to me."
  #55  
Old 01-11-2019, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
Sorry, but Aragorn doesn't "love" Eowyn. Remember, to him she is but a child; she was born in 2995 T.A., and that means he was already 64 when she was born. Hell, her FATHER was just a young 'un when he was serving King Thengel of Rohan as Thorongil.
Compared to Arwen (2700yo), Aragorn and Eowyn are the same age. If Aragorn sees Eowyn as a child, what must Arwen think of Aragorn (or should she think of him)? Or others think of Arwen when she wants to bed a proto-child such as Aragorn? My theory is that elves, for all their high and mightiness, aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack or their brains have a limited retention period and clean out after a century or two keeping only the most important stuff from the past.
  #56  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:29 AM
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Compared to Arwen (2700yo), Aragorn and Eowyn are the same age. If Aragorn sees Eowyn as a child, what must Arwen think of Aragorn (or should she think of him)? Or others think of Arwen when she wants to bed a proto-child such as Aragorn? My theory is that elves, for all their high and mightiness, aren't the brightest bulbs in the pack or their brains have a limited retention period and clean out after a century or two keeping only the most important stuff from the past.
Mind you, look at Arwen's family tree- virtually every known instance of elves getting with non-elves happened in it. She's been brought up on stories -famous romantic ballads even -of how her ancestors gave everything up for the love of a mortal. It's not surprising she copied.
  #57  
Old 01-11-2019, 07:49 AM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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Here's another thing about the movies and a weird ass choice to make:

Aragorn shows Sauron the reforged sword for two reasons. To make him think that Aragorn has the Ring and to cow him or to show us what a badass Aragorn is and that Sauron fears him....and Sauron responds by...showing him a dead or dying Arwen? And Aragorns pendant falls and shatters? Now I love how this immediatly segues to Aragorn marching out, but the Arwen thing and the pendant was a weird choice to make.
  #58  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:29 AM
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Another thing I don't understand; Arwen says she "chooses a mortal life" with Aragorn, but then Elrond nearly convinces her to go to the undying lands because if she stays with Aragorn, Aragorn will eventually die and she'll be left alone basically forever; the flash forward scene shows an aged dead Aragorn and Arwen looking not a day older. So what, then? Does she become mortal and just lives a hella long time? Or does she continue to be immortal?
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  #59  
Old 01-11-2019, 09:59 AM
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She dies of grief shortly after Aragorn's death. As to what happens to her after death, well... She wanted to share Aragorn's fate (whatever that is; even the Wise of Middle-Earth explicitly have no clue what happens to humans after death), and she claims that's her decision to make. But on the other hand, her first cousins (Aragorn's long-distant ancestors) resented that they were not allowed to make that decision, and dying of grief is a possible cause of death for elves, but not for humans.
  #60  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:05 AM
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The acting, writing, and directing choices diverged from the books, and I can live with that because to film the books as written would have yielded MANY more hours of cinema to be effective.

But all the goddamned Wilhelm screams...why? How does invoking the baggage of hundreds of other iconic movies add to the story at all? Jackson should be smothered in a vat of live mice for that.
  #61  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:47 AM
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But all the goddamned Wilhelm screams...why?
Yeah, that was kind of glaring, like a Joss Whedon lens-flare-fest, but in audio.
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  #62  
Old 01-11-2019, 10:53 AM
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The treatment of Denethor bothers me the most. In the books, from my memory, he was a tragic but still very well-meaning and brave leader, who was actually strong enough, morally speaking, to resist Sauron's temptations and entreaties. And he ordered the signal fires to be lit, unlike resisting them in the movie. Yeah, by the climax of the battle his spirit was broken, but it was after many brave and strong stands... he wasn't an insane, doddering fool. Just a strong and brave but very sad man, who had tried his very best, but fell apart when tragedy after tragedy struck, and overreached by trying to use the Palantir to help win the war.
I was most bothered by the treatment of Faramir. He was a completely good individual in the book. He was one of the people tempted by the ring who turned it down -- he knew he could take possession of it, and could use it to rule the world, and instead, he gave Frodo and his little band aid and comfort, and sent them on their way. In the movie he's a rough man in a rough job. In the book, he is an exemplar of virtue.

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Keep in mind that one of Tolkien's major themes was nature vs. technology, so he had to make the good guys pretty much consistently feudal-level, and leave the technological advances to the bad guys. He wasn't trying to be anthropologically correct; he was spinning an allegory.
This. If you read poetry from the time, (not Tolkien, other stuff) there's tons of allegories about the evils of industrialization. This is when beautiful landscapes were being cluttered with smoke-belching factories. When people were leaving farms and families to work in those crowded unsafe factories that were little better than mines. And when modern technology created toxic gas to kill masses of people on the battlefield -- a battlefield Tolkien experienced as a young man. Industrialization eventually brought us lots of good stuff and longer lifespans, but it's early manifestation included a lot of early mortality and ugliness and pain. And that's the phase Tolkien saw.
  #63  
Old 01-11-2019, 11:49 AM
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Another thing I don't understand; Arwen says she "chooses a mortal life" with Aragorn, but then Elrond nearly convinces her to go to the undying lands because if she stays with Aragorn, Aragorn will eventually die and she'll be left alone basically forever; the flash forward scene shows an aged dead Aragorn and Arwen looking not a day older. So what, then? Does she become mortal and just lives a hella long time? Or does she continue to be immortal?
This confused me too, the first 5 or 6 times I saw the films. But what actually happens: Elrond assumes that Arwen only has 2 choices: go to the Undying Lands, or live with Aragorn as an elf. He presents her a vision of what that would be like -- Aragorn dies, she's immortal, wandering the earth after everything she loves is gone. Pretty bleak.

But then she springs a 3rd option he hadn't considered: she becomes mortal.

(In actuality -- ie, in the books -- this makes no sense. Elrond and all his descendants have the choice of being elves or men. He knows this perfectly well: he chose to be an elf; his twin brother Elros became the first king of Numenor.)
  #64  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:01 PM
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Elrond and Elros certainly had that choice. But the sons of Elros did not have that choice, and resented it. And Arwen's claim is the only source supporting that the children (or any further descendants) of Elrond ever had that choice.

Now, Arwen just might still be correct. There's nothing that says that the situation must be symmetric: Maybe, for instance, anyone with any human ancestry is allowed to choose the path of mortality, but that the choice of Elvish life is limited to only a few. But I don't think it can be taken as a given.
  #65  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:17 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
I was most bothered by the treatment of Faramir. He was a completely good individual in the book. He was one of the people tempted by the ring who turned it down -- he knew he could take possession of it, and could use it to rule the world, and instead, he gave Frodo and his little band aid and comfort, and sent them on their way. In the movie he's a rough man in a rough job. In the book, he is an exemplar of virtue.
It's the thing that Jackson did that I hated the most. Not just because it screws with Faramir, but because it shows he failed to understand the basic premise of the whole damn trilogy!

The Lord of the Rings is, in essence, the story of how the torch was finally handed off from the mythological elves to the real-world men. Gandalf's whole purpose in Middle-Earth is to help make that happen, by bringing about the end of the ages of wonder, where elvish and angelic influence shape the goings on. If you will, he's the exit plan for the Valar, who have come to realize that Middle-Earth has to be left to the Second-born Children so that they can finally realize their potential.

And all around you at the end of the Third Age, you see so many reasons why that shouldn't be allowed to happen. Whole tribes of men who are corrupted by Evil (Southrons, Easterlings, Dunlendings, etc.). Leaders who cannot act as their noble ancestors would have (Denethor, for example). Saruman gives up on the whole notion of trusting that Men will get things right and decides to take things into his own hands, setting the snare for himself that traps him as a pawn of Sauron. But Gandalf plugs away, because he sees the potential of Man, and he knows Man can rise above these examples and be noble and good.

No aspect of the story shows this better than the intentional contrast drawn between Boromir and Faramir. Boromir is the anointed heir, the natural leader, the bold, brave man, who eschews a life of book learning for the call of action. Faramir, by contrast, is the quiet scholar, who as needs be can lead, but who harks to Gandalf's influence, and sees a value to "good" and "noble" behavior, even if it appears to work short-term harm on him and his. And, of course, it is Boromir who succumbs to the temptation of the Ring, and Faramir who refuses that temptation, soliloquizing that he has the option of taking it, and maybe doing great things with it, but recognizing that it will just lead to a bad end. In that moment, he is everything Gandalf believes Man can be, given the chance.

And Jackson totally screws it up. When Faramir lets Frodo go, it's only because he is afraid that by not doing so, Sauron will simply end up with the Ring, or that terrible things will befall Gondor. Nothing noble about it, just naked fear that he's screwed up.
  #66  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:28 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Elrond and Elros certainly had that choice. But the sons of Elros did not have that choice, and resented it. And Arwen's claim is the only source supporting that the children (or any further descendants) of Elrond ever had that choice.

Now, Arwen just might still be correct. There's nothing that says that the situation must be symmetric: Maybe, for instance, anyone with any human ancestry is allowed to choose the path of mortality, but that the choice of Elvish life is limited to only a few. But I don't think it can be taken as a given.
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A
At the end of the First Age, the Valar gave to the Half-elven an irrevocable choice to which kindred they would belong. Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world. But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth. For Elrond, therefore, all chances of the War of the Ring were fraught with sorrow.
Tolkien is quite explicit that the children of Elrond were given a similar choice as that which Elrond had. No where is it said in canon that I'm aware what choice was made by Elrond's sons, Elladan and Elrohir. Interestingly, none of Elrond's children were yet born at the time of the ending of the First Age, so it's not like this grace was offered because they already existed. One supposes that Tolkien made it be this way so that he could justify the story line about Arwen; I'd have to go back and look through the volumes of the History of Middle-earth that deal with the writing of the trilogy and, specifically, the development of the Arwen-Aragorn story line to be sure.

Last edited by DSYoungEsq; 01-11-2019 at 12:28 PM.
  #67  
Old 01-11-2019, 12:56 PM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is online now
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Originally Posted by Cuckoorex View Post
Gollum leads Frodo to Shelob's tunnel, where eventually he gets stung and paralyzed. Um, was he NOT wearing the Mithril chainmail shirt?? How the hell can a spider's stinger, even a giant spider's stinger, pierce Mithril??
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Originally Posted by DSYoungEsq View Post
He gets bitten, not stung, and on the back of the neck (in the book). No mithril there.
If only Thorin had given Bilbo a mithril hoodie...
  #68  
Old 01-11-2019, 02:23 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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It's the thing that Jackson did that I hated the most. Not just because it screws with Faramir, but because it shows he failed to understand the basic premise of the whole damn trilogy!

The Lord of the Rings is, in essence, the story of how the torch was finally handed off from the mythological elves to the real-world men. Gandalf's whole purpose in Middle-Earth is to help make that happen, by bringing about the end of the ages of wonder, where elvish and angelic influence shape the goings on. If you will, he's the exit plan for the Valar, who have come to realize that Middle-Earth has to be left to the Second-born Children so that they can finally realize their potential.

And all around you at the end of the Third Age, you see so many reasons why that shouldn't be allowed to happen. Whole tribes of men who are corrupted by Evil (Southrons, Easterlings, Dunlendings, etc.). Leaders who cannot act as their noble ancestors would have (Denethor, for example). Saruman gives up on the whole notion of trusting that Men will get things right and decides to take things into his own hands, setting the snare for himself that traps him as a pawn of Sauron. But Gandalf plugs away, because he sees the potential of Man, and he knows Man can rise above these examples and be noble and good.

No aspect of the story shows this better than the intentional contrast drawn between Boromir and Faramir. Boromir is the anointed heir, the natural leader, the bold, brave man, who eschews a life of book learning for the call of action. Faramir, by contrast, is the quiet scholar, who as needs be can lead, but who harks to Gandalf's influence, and sees a value to "good" and "noble" behavior, even if it appears to work short-term harm on him and his. And, of course, it is Boromir who succumbs to the temptation of the Ring, and Faramir who refuses that temptation, soliloquizing that he has the option of taking it, and maybe doing great things with it, but recognizing that it will just lead to a bad end. In that moment, he is everything Gandalf believes Man can be, given the chance.

And Jackson totally screws it up. When Faramir lets Frodo go, it's only because he is afraid that by not doing so, Sauron will simply end up with the Ring, or that terrible things will befall Gondor. Nothing noble about it, just naked fear that he's screwed up.
While we're on kinda missing the point:

Tolkein says Eru gave Gollum a small shove. When God intervenes, Jackson...you find a way to make it work.
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