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  #51  
Old 02-14-2018, 06:20 PM
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World B feels harsh.

I'm not where I can watch so this may be a little off, but in that last episode we had Claire and Baldwin - Claire's handler asked about Baldwin which Claire replied that she knew Baldwin had sexual feelings for her. Claire's handler said she should make use of that - so Claire allowed Baldwin to seduce her, then once she had her trust and fell asleep Claire stole her gun leaving Baldwin defenseless against the assassins sent to kill her. I'm pretty sure that handler was in housekeeping too.

I just think that's a fact of life in world B - Love is a tool Housekeepers use to their advantage.
That seems like a bit of an overreach to me. Just because Baldwin can be manipulated and gets screwed over doesn't mean that all of world B is constantly being fucked over and lied to. Though I will admit that being under a scary disease threat could make such manipulation easier.

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  #52  
Old 02-15-2018, 09:50 AM
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OK, I'm all caught up and pretty much enjoying it. I'm not exactly clear on why Howard1 agreed to go over to the other side, unless it's just total devotion to his wife and thinking that is the best/only way to keep her safe. I mean, Howard2 got his visa revoked, and although he says it will only take a week to clear things up, there's a good chance it may never be "cleared up" and Howard1 would be stuck over there until he dies.

The other thing that seems odd is that we are told World2 is technologically disadvantaged, but the Berlin skyline looks pretty sleek and they were supposedly instrumental in developing the AIDS vaccine and decoding the human genome. Perhaps we are being given conflicting images of World2 on purpose, and there will be some surprising reveals as the series unfolds. One might say "It's complicated".
  #53  
Old 02-28-2018, 09:49 AM
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The plot thickens.

So Toby Ziegler's daughter (Claire) is the mole. I was a little unclear on the coffee stains on the documents Quayle was looking at (I guess she copied them and passed them along to Emily?) I wonder if Toby is in on it or if they killed his daughter and swapped her with Other Side Claire?

The three people holed up in the apartment...an assassin squad?

I do like how this show doesn't talk down to the audience, and JK Simmons is a delight playing both Howards. Subtle differences, but I can usually tell which is which.
  #54  
Old 02-28-2018, 10:27 AM
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The three people holed up in the apartment... an assassin squad?
Terrorists, is my guess.
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Old 02-28-2018, 11:34 AM
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I'm thinking their goal is to release the flu on our side.
  #56  
Old 02-28-2018, 12:46 PM
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Emily said 7% of the population died. Is that enough to make a difference, with deserted restaurants and no traffic jams?
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Old 02-28-2018, 01:00 PM
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7% in the first four years died is what she said, I believe. Clearly, with the "report all sick people" PSA still running in movie theatres we can assume that wasn't the end of it.

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  #58  
Old 02-28-2018, 01:20 PM
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There was a throwaway line (so throwaway I can't remember who said it) that said someone was sick. Considering how dire illness is, I'm surprised they didn't make more of it (yet.)
  #59  
Old 02-28-2018, 01:30 PM
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7% in the first four years died is what she said, I believe. Clearly, with the "report all sick people" PSA still running in movie theatres we can assume that wasn't the end of it.
Plus, even if the population is still pretty high, I imagine most people would be weary about being in crowded spaces. I noticed in the background there was a "Paris is open again for business" sign, trying to get people to come back.
  #60  
Old 02-28-2018, 11:41 PM
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I do like how this show doesn't talk down to the audience, and JK Simmons is a delight playing both Howards. Subtle differences, but I can usually tell which is which.

I think I figured out part of how he pulls that off. When he's Badass Howard, he keeps his face much tenser, Mild Howard always seems to sag just a bit more around the jowls.
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  #61  
Old 03-01-2018, 09:54 PM
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The plot thickens.

So Toby Ziegler's daughter (Claire) is the mole. I was a little unclear on the coffee stains on the documents Quayle was looking at (I guess she copied them and passed them along to Emily?) I wonder if Toby is in on it or if they killed his daughter and swapped her with Other Side Claire?

The three people holed up in the apartment...an assassin squad?

I do like how this show doesn't talk down to the audience, and JK Simmons is a delight playing both Howards. Subtle differences, but I can usually tell which is which.
I didn't get that at all. I thought the implication of the coffee stains was that someone in Quayle's house was reading those documents, and it wasn't him. Therefore, his wife is the mole. This makes perfect sense - they killed the guy and put Quayle, who knows nothing, in his position having already compromised his wife. That way, Quayle can pass lie detectors and will not give up the game by doing something suspicious. He truly has no idea that his wife is doing. The perfect cover.

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  #62  
Old 03-01-2018, 10:10 PM
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Similarly, when Howard was being interrogated (while the lie detector was running), he could say, "I don't remember" when asked what he talked about with Emily, because Mild Howard was the one being interrogated and the events they were asking about were things done by Howard Prime.
  #63  
Old 03-02-2018, 11:20 AM
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I didn't get that at all. I thought the implication of the coffee stains was that someone in Quayle's house was reading those documents, and it wasn't him. Therefore, his wife is the mole. This makes perfect sense - they killed the guy and put Quayle, who knows nothing, in his position having already compromised his wife. That way, Quayle can pass lie detectors and will not give up the game by doing something suspicious. He truly has no idea that his wife is doing. The perfect cover.
I think you guys are basically agreeing: Quayle's wife and his boss's daughter are one in the same.
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Old 03-02-2018, 11:21 AM
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One and the same, but yes. I think someone even complimented Quayle for being smart enough to marry the boss's daughter.
  #65  
Old 03-02-2018, 11:31 AM
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Similarly, when Howard was being interrogated (while the lie detector was running), he could say, "I don't remember" when asked what he talked about with Emily, because Mild Howard was the one being interrogated and the events they were asking about were things done by Howard Prime.

This might just be the best lie detector scene ever filmed. He's telling the absolute truth, and in the process convinces them that he's an even better liar than he used to be.

Brilliant!
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  #66  
Old 03-02-2018, 12:58 PM
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One and the same, but yes. I think someone even complimented Quayle for being smart enough to marry the boss's daughter.
It was mentioned many times. His boss said a few things along the lines of "It's good you make my daughter happy but..." But I can understand forgetting because of course they had never had her onscreen as wife/daughter until the reveal in the last episode.

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  #67  
Old 03-02-2018, 01:27 PM
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I didn't get that at all. I thought the implication of the coffee stains was that someone in Quayle's house was reading those documents, and it wasn't him. Therefore, his wife is the mole. This makes perfect sense - they killed the guy and put Quayle, who knows nothing, in his position having already compromised his wife. That way, Quayle can pass lie detectors and will not give up the game by doing something suspicious. He truly has no idea that his wife is doing. The perfect cover.
I took it to mean he saw the coffee stain on the copy and maybe remembered making the stain on the original.. He pulled the original out of the safe and matched up the coffee stain. Which means someone went into the safe and made a copy of the document and gave it to Emily. Since it wasn't him, it must be his wife. DUN DUN DUN!
  #68  
Old 03-02-2018, 03:12 PM
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I totally missed that they are the same person! My bad.
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Old 03-02-2018, 03:16 PM
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That's kind of what I like...the show doesn't anvil drop you. It expects you to make the connections sooner or later.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:29 PM
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Despite this episode focusing mainly on a character we barely know and featuring Howard only for a couple minutes, I think this was the best episode so far.

The only problem is that it seems like border control is really lax. They must have someone on our side in charge of it, because why isn't someone going "Hey, this woman never came back over?"
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:54 PM
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First of all, this latest episode suggested a way of referring to characters who exist on both sides. Based on that, I'm going to refer to characters on "mild Howard's" side as, for example, "Howard Alpha" and the other one as "Howard Prime".

Second, I don't know if that's the intent, but the show suggests how stupid all human conflict is. I mean, we have conflicts in our world over which flavor of Christianity you follow, or who you think is the rightful heir of the prophet Mohammed. (Or whether you crack eggs on the small end or the big end.) This show takes such conflicts over nothing to the extreme. At the beginning, the two worlds were absolutely identical, and yet now they're bitter enemies. It kind of reminds me of the recurring "Spy Vs Spy" comic in Mad Magazine; the two spies were identical, except one was in black and the other in white.

And in the latest episode, we learned that Earth Prime suffered a swine flu pandemic perhaps twenty years ago that killed about half a billion people, for which they blame Earth Alpha. An epidemic like that isn't so far-fetched; we've had swine flu epidemics from time to time. Obviously none that bad.
  #72  
Old 03-06-2018, 02:18 PM
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The only problem is that it seems like border control is really lax. They must have someone on our side in charge of it, because why isn't someone going "Hey, this woman never came back over?"


They alluded to this problem in the previous episode, where the Alpha World Housekeepers were catching their two border guards who let Prince's latest album cross the line. "Why is it always the border guards?"

Well, it really has to be them, doesn't it? It's not like there's a few thousand miles of border or coastline you can use for smuggling. If you haven't co-opted the border guards, you're screwed.

The trick is how to do that. Start small with the things like cigarettes and vodka, and then move up to assassins and the like.
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  #73  
Old 03-06-2018, 03:38 PM
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Despite this episode focusing mainly on a character we barely know and featuring Howard only for a couple minutes, I think this was the best episode so far.
Agreed. Episode seven is a tremendous piece of television.
  #74  
Old 03-06-2018, 05:22 PM
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Oh man, watching the actor (Harry Lloyd) who plays Quayle completely screwing the pooch with Clare was hard to watch. And not very believable. So he has a few drinks and completely blows the counterintelligence opportunity because he got played? It's difficult to reckon who is the bigger dumbass: Peter Quayle or Viserys Targaryen?

Did anyone notice the location when Good Howard walks around a hotel/mall with Other Emily in a previous episode? Same place they set NASA in Interstellar.
  #75  
Old 03-06-2018, 05:37 PM
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Oh man, watching the actor (Harry Lloyd) who plays Quayle completely screwing the pooch with Clare was hard to watch. And not very believable. So he has a few drinks and completely blows the counterintelligence opportunity because he got played? It's difficult to reckon who is the bigger dumbass: Peter Quayle or Viserys Targaryen?
[/I]
A) I just now realized that was the same actor.
B) I imagine that finding out that your wife was at some point murdered and replaced by a spy can be a little hard to keep to yourself.
  #76  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:29 PM
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Yeah, I will give him a pass for losing it. I can't imagine what that would be like.

So, do we believe that Claire has actually changed? Or was that just a frantic attempt to buy some time?

If she has really changed, it seems to me her only choice is to become a double agent. If she refuses to send intel back to her side, she't toast. If they get any inkling at all that her loyalties have changed, they will kill her in a heartbeat to protect their operation. But if she doesn't play ball with Quayle, she's toast. If she thinks only he knows and she's going to work him to keep her nature secret, she has Howard Prime to contend with - and she's toast.

So the way I see it, either she becomes a double agent and works for Quayle and Howard, or she has to die and/or try to run.
  #77  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:53 PM
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So, do we believe that Claire has actually changed? Or was that just a frantic attempt to buy some time?


Honestly, I'm not sure why she ever had any loyalty to her side to begin with.

The School is clearly a splinter group of fanatics who believe that the plague was deliberately set by the other side, which is a minority opinion apparently. They seem to have grabbed her up when she was vulnerable, gave her no choice about joining their cause, subjected her to physical and emotional abuse for years, and then ordered her to cross over, commit murder, marry someone she hasn't even met (while having to allow some jerk in a bar to take her virginity just to keep up the ruse), and then risk criminal charges for stealing secrets.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she's ready to tell "her" side to piss off.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:23 PM
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So, do we believe that Claire has actually changed?
They broke her legs, and it had to be done while she was conscious, never mind all the other stuff. I'm sure Claire has her own thoughts on these matters.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:31 PM
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On the other hand, she would be fighting against a lifetime of brainwashing. She was raised to think the people on 'this' side are monsters responsible for the deaths of billions of people. And she was cold enough as an adult to choke her own counterpart to death. Even Baldwin, a trained assassin, couldn't bring herself to kill her counterpart.

The argument for her switch is that she really has a baby, and sometimes that can change everything. But we will see.

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Old 03-06-2018, 07:33 PM
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Did they say when they got married? I wasn't clear as to how long ago the switch was.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:29 PM
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Did they say when they got married? I wasn't clear as to how long ago the switch was.

It's pretty clear the switch was before the wedding. She had to move on her double and kill her because she had just broken off the engagement, and they didn't want to lose the opportunity. They've only recently had the baby, so it's probably no more than a few years.
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Old 03-06-2018, 09:32 PM
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The argument for her switch is that she really has a baby, and sometimes that can change everything. But we will see.


But did you catch that she named the baby after the boy she had a crush on when she first started at The School? It's a pretty big hint that she's been harboring a grudge over being split up from him for most of her life.
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  #83  
Old 03-06-2018, 09:50 PM
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Good call!
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Old 03-06-2018, 10:55 PM
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Fantastic episode....and I'm super glad that Viserys still has a chance to make huge, huge mistakes... just seemed obvious he might want to keep that under wraps for at least a few days.
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Old 03-07-2018, 09:24 AM
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On the other hand, she would be fighting against a lifetime of brainwashing. She was raised to think the people on 'this' side are monsters responsible for the deaths of billions of people. And she was cold enough as an adult to choke her own counterpart to death. Even Baldwin, a trained assassin, couldn't bring herself to kill her counterpart.

The argument for her switch is that she really has a baby, and sometimes that can change everything. But we will see.
There is no such thing as brainwashing. She has been indoctrinated, but after living on the other, other side she had ample opportunity to figure things out herself. But I'm not going to nitpick the writers on that.

I agree this was a really good episode, but I was also a bit unhappy with the whole "I'm drunk and I'm going to totally put myself in a lot of danger by telling my uber-spy wife that I know she's a spy". Also, this is a bit too much like Lost. We've got "the Others" and now we're getting back-stories on who people really are...

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  #86  
Old 03-07-2018, 01:32 PM
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Also, this is a bit too much like Lost. We've got "the Others" and now we're getting back-stories on who people really are...

Actually, I don't feel it's like Lost all that much. In Lost, the Others were just regular(-ish) people who had to rely on traditional subterfuge to infiltrate the Losties.

But here, they have a significant cadre of spies who are literally genetically identical to the people they're switching places with, and who have been surgically altered and trained to copy any other differences. It would be incredibly hard to ever catch one of them, as we've already seen.


What I do find interesting is that this cadre of Perfect Spies is inherently time-limited. They can only really use people who were born before the split, and those people are gradually aging out of being useful. The longer they go before switching, the harder it gets. What happens when they start running out of useful operatives?

This is probably why things are coming to a head just now. They know they're at the Use It Or Lose It stage.
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:19 PM
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What I do find interesting is that this cadre of Perfect Spies is inherently time-limited. They can only really use people who were born before the split, and those people are gradually aging out of being useful. The longer they go before switching, the harder it gets. What happens when they start running out of useful operatives?.
It will be harder the more timelines diverge, but they showed Claire training the next generation of students, who were all born after the split.
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:22 PM
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It's difficult to reckon who is the bigger dumbass: Peter Quayle or Viserys Targaryen?
Oh, my God, I didn't realize it was the same actor until you pointed it out!

I don't think Claire stood a chance. She's been indoctrinated since she was a child, and she's been on this side what, maybe two-three years? We don't know how long between she got married and she had the baby, but it seems like having the baby (something that's truly hers, as she said) may have started to switch her.

The other side keeps track of the spies, so I guess if Pope sends someone over for deep undercover work no one on "this" side is going to keep track if they overstay their visa, especially if they kill their counterpart and take their place. How would they know?

So what happens to a child at the School if their counterpart on "this" side dies? I guess they just expel them and they can live a normal life? But what if they're far enough along in their training that they know about both worlds? Maybe they stay and teach?

I kept thinking Claire's contact was going to turn out to be Spencer. Maybe in a later episode.

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Old 03-08-2018, 05:34 PM
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The other side keeps track of the spies, so I guess if Pope sends someone over for deep undercover work no one on "this" side is going to keep track if they overstay their visa, especially if they kill their counterpart and take their place. How would they know?
Wouldn't "this" side keep track of who came through, and realize that they never went back? The only way it would work is if someone on our border is dirty (either paid off or from the school).
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Old 03-08-2018, 05:56 PM
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I've only seen the other side getting visas for six hours (BadAss Emily) or a few days (BadAss Howard.) BA Howard couldn't go back when his visa expired because he knew Pope was out to get him, so he sent Mild Howard back.

It seems like a one way street, with the other side coming to this side a lot more often than the other way around.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:30 AM
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It seems like a one way street, with the other side coming to this side a lot more often than the other way around.


Well, they are the fanatics with a chip on their shoulder. We're just in it for the new science and technology.


In a way, it's kind of like the US relationship with Saudi Arabia: The US just wants oil, the Saudi Government is in it for the money, and meanwhile, people like Osama Bin Laden were sneaking around the shadows planning to blow things up.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:07 AM
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Well, it looks like I was wrong; she is a True Believer. And we now know that Quayle is stupider than Viserys. Viserys only screwed himself over with his stupidity, it's starting to look like Quayle will screw over just about everybody.

And how good was The Two Howards argument? A brilliant piece of writing, where they both came off as being both right and wrong.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:16 AM
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Well, it looks like I was wrong; she is a True Believer. And we now know that Quayle is stupider than Viserys. Viserys only screwed himself over with his stupidity, it's starting to look like Quayle will screw over just about everybody.
UNLESS

Howard is the real mole. After all, Bad Ass Howard is now on this side, where the counterparts are trying to get to.

I still don't get who Baldwin is working for. Now she's knocking off members of the sleeper cell team. I could see Clare trying to become a double agent, or pretending to be a double agent.

Very sad to see the school destroyed. I was hoping they would get the kids to safety because they are their biggest asset, but apparently it was scorched earth all the way around.
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Old 03-12-2018, 11:18 AM
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Very sad to see the school destroyed. I was hoping they would get the kids to safety because they are their biggest asset, but apparently it was scorched earth all the way around.
Was it supposed to be implied that they killed ALL of the kids? I know we saw some, but it was had to tell if all of the kids were there. The woman as she was leaving told the other guy they still had options, so I'm guessing they had some of the kids get away or they have another school.

I wonder how much information they were able to get from those fires. I doubt all the files were totally destroyed.
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Old 03-12-2018, 12:18 PM
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UNLESS


I still don't get who Baldwin is working for. Now she's knocking off members of the sleeper cell team. I could see Clare trying to become a double agent, or pretending to be a double agent.
I don't think that was the sleeper agent she killed, I think it was his Counterpart on this side.

I think Baldwin's mission was to kill people the counterparts of the sleeper cell agents coming over from her side. The sleeper agents have the same mission as Clare, slip into a preexisting life on this side. There was a hint of that when Clare met the sleepers with their assignments and indicated there was a delay. Clare on the other hand was activated very early because of the advantages gained by being married to Quayle.

On this assassination Baldwin acted quickly and silently so a replacement is possible. I'm still confused about the first episode when she killed the guy Howard worked for in Interface who was promoted to Strategy instead of Howard. A public death doesn't benefit a person who's crossing intent on replacement, though it might send a message back to her side.

Last edited by Frazzled; 03-12-2018 at 12:19 PM.
  #96  
Old 03-12-2018, 03:03 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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Originally Posted by Edward The Head View Post
Was it supposed to be implied that they killed ALL of the kids? I know we saw some, but it was had to tell if all of the kids were there. The woman as she was leaving told the other guy they still had options, so I'm guessing they had some of the kids get away or they have another school.

I wonder how much information they were able to get from those fires. I doubt all the files were totally destroyed.
Someone said something about eighteen dead people in the house, "half of them kids". So nine or so dead kids. That sounds about how many were in the classroom.

And we saw them just dumping piles of paper in the bonfires. In my experience, a bundle or stack of papers doesn't burn well. It chars a bit on the edges but the middle should be intact. So if they're careful (I think you don't want to just drown the fire in water), they should be able to recover some info.

And as someone mentioned upthread, these kids were born well after the split. So they may not have an exact counterpart in the other world.
  #97  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:30 PM
ivylass ivylass is offline
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Originally Posted by Frazzled View Post
I think Baldwin's mission was to kill people the counterparts of the sleeper cell agents coming over from her side. The sleeper agents have the same mission as Clare, slip into a preexisting life on this side. There was a hint of that when Clare met the sleepers with their assignments and indicated there was a delay. Clare on the other hand was activated very early because of the advantages gained by being married to Quayle.
That makes much more sense.
  #98  
Old 03-15-2018, 12:19 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is online now
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There's only one episode available right now.

I enjoyed it. I kept expecting him to go into his Farmers Insurance spiel though.lol
And I expect his doppelganger to go into his Whiplash spiel!

Last edited by msmith537; 03-15-2018 at 12:22 PM.
  #99  
Old 03-15-2018, 12:35 PM
Red Wiggler Red Wiggler is offline
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I am always on the brink of losing the thread of this show while I'm watching it. Which, oddly enough, keeps me on my toes and thinking about characters and plot every minute of it. I'm counting on this thread to fill in the gaps where I can't quite make the connection.
  #100  
Old 03-15-2018, 12:45 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is online now
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And we saw them just dumping piles of paper in the bonfires. In my experience, a bundle or stack of papers doesn't burn well. It chars a bit on the edges but the middle should be intact. So if they're careful (I think you don't want to just drown the fire in water), they should be able to recover some info.
Maybe it was special paper that burned very quickly?






Quote:
Originally Posted by Frazzled View Post
I don't think that was the sleeper agent she killed, I think it was his Counterpart on this side.

I think Baldwin's mission was to kill people the counterparts of the sleeper cell agents coming over from her side. The sleeper agents have the same mission as Clare, slip into a preexisting life on this side. There was a hint of that when Clare met the sleepers with their assignments and indicated there was a delay. Clare on the other hand was activated very early because of the advantages gained by being married to Quayle.
But the question now is who is Clare and Baldwin really working for?

To also answer Sam Stone's question:
SPOILER:

After Quayle confronts Clare she indicates her feelings have changed since the birth of her child. While it may just be a ploy to buy time, in her backstory, we also see that she was largely compelled to join the Indigo school and did not appear to be consumed with rage and vengeance over the death of her parents from the flu.

Baldwin is also being presented more as a sympathetic character. And there is clearly a conflict between her mission and the objectives of Clare's superiors.

So IMHO, Clare may have, in fact, gone rogue.





Question though. We are told that scientists created an exact duplicate universe . We are first introduce to the Alpha universe (bureaucrat Howard) and then later the Prime universe (spy Howard). While we relate more to the Alpha universe because it was introduced first and appears to be just like ours (no superflu, etc), do both universes consider themselves to be the "original"? i.e. From the perspective of each universe, THEIR scientists opened the portal to the other?

Last edited by msmith537; 03-15-2018 at 12:46 PM.
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