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  #1  
Old 04-25-2018, 03:56 PM
MostlyClueless MostlyClueless is offline
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Infinity war 'seen it' thread (spoilers)

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Thanos was never deep or sympathetic. I side-eye everyone who says he was.

I haven't run the math yet, but I have the suspicion his "50% off" button is both racist and sexist. Yes, I'm pissed about Black Panther never getting any sequels, even though pretty much all of the white male heroes did.

(The math: add up all heroes. Get the percentage of non-white and female representation. I want to bet it's lower post-cull.)

Gamora was right. That wasn't love. Fuck the writers for implying that that abusive relationship had anything resembling love in it. Countless piece-of-shit abusive parents will see this movie and feel justified. FUCK these writers.

That being said-

Impressed by the balance between all the heroes, and the odd teamups that happen.

Visuals were great.

Glad they still got some jokes in there.

I'm sure I'll have more to add when all of this sinks in.
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  #2  
Old 04-25-2018, 06:00 PM
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You realize, of course, that there is still Avengers 4 coming. I'm quite sure most of what was done will be...undone.
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Old 04-25-2018, 06:36 PM
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Exactly this.
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:44 PM
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A couple of thoughts:

I don't think that the writers were implying that it was love - as you mentioned, Gamora didn't think so. They were saying that Thanos believed he did feel love, rather than ownership. The writers knew, and I think made plain, that it was an abusive relationship.

It struck me that almost all of the Infinity Stones were given up to Thanos out of compassion - to stop the suffering of another. This can't be coincidence, and I strongly believe that that will be a major point of the next Avengers.

Most impressive, with all those different characters, and all those different threads, they made it all work.

Overall, a very satisfying middle movie, and it's going to be a hell of a wait to see how what they do with the follow up, in a years' time.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MostlyClueless View Post
Gamora was right. That wasn't love. Fuck the writers for implying that that abusive relationship had anything resembling love in it. Countless piece-of-shit abusive parents will see this movie and feel justified. FUCK these writers.
He was torturing his other daughter, Nebula, and as previous movies have portrayed, he brutally tortured Nebula as a child and replaced most of her body with cybernetic implants when she disappointed him by losing fights with Gamora. Oh, and he wiped out Gamora's entire race when he "adopted" her. Nobody is going to get a genuine impression that love was a component of any relationship Thanos had with anyone.

Abusive parents don't need to look to some random Marvel movie (or any movie) for justification.

Last edited by ganthet; 04-26-2018 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 04-26-2018, 12:39 AM
MostlyClueless MostlyClueless is offline
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Even if Avengers 4 has the massive reset button at the end, that still means that for Marvel's biggest, baddest movie to date they've just taken out the black guy since they can't figure out what to do with him, while his white male cohorts can spend 2+ hours being angsty about their loved ones being fridged.

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I don't think that the writers were implying that it was love
Quote:
Nobody is going to get a genuine impression that love was a component of any relationship Thanos had with anyone.
Except that the soul stone required the sacrifice of a loved one. Which means some cosmic entity saw that and went "well, okay, I guess that counts somehow" and gave him the soul stone. And, you know, he shed a single tear.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:14 AM
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Black Panther 2 has been announced.
So has Spider Man 2(ish) - you did notice Parker got dusted as well?

I'm pretty sure they've got a plan, and it's not a matter of not knowing what to do with Black Panther.

Last edited by galen ubal; 04-26-2018 at 01:15 AM.
  #8  
Old 04-26-2018, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by MostlyClueless View Post
Even if Avengers 4 has the massive reset button at the end, that still means that for Marvel's biggest, baddest movie to date they've just taken out the black guy since they can't figure out what to do with him, while his white male cohorts can spend 2+ hours being angsty about their loved ones being fridged.
Black Panther 2 has been announced, and there's no way it isn't going ahead. Ditto Spider Man 2. My guess is, anyone who got...dusted? by Thanos is coming back.

Re Thanos's 'love' for Gamora: not love by our standards, no. But my headcanon is it's as close as he can get to it, and that's the standard the Soul Stone judged by. He gave the person he valued most in the universe, and got what he wanted in return.

I think that will come back to haunt him. As galen said, most of the other stones came to him because someone gave them up to save someone else - Loki handed over the Tesseract, Strange handed over the Eye, and Vision voluntarily gave up his life to see the Mind Stone destroyed. Even Eitri crafted the Gauntlet because he thought it would give everyone else on Nidavellir a chance at survival. Granted, we don't know the exact circumstances of him getting the stone on Xandar or the Aether from the Collector, though - but there could have been something similar there. But even without knowing those for sure, it was a frequent enough beat that I'm betting it'll come back into play.
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:58 AM
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One thing I am curious about - what happened to Valkyrie (Tessa Thompson's character)?
We know she was on the Asgardian ship as of Thor's coronation, at the end of Ragnarok. We don't see her in the scene with Loki and Thor at mid-credits, when Thanos' ship appears. I don't recall seeing her amongst the bodies in Infinity War, however - and on my second viewing of the movie today, I looked for her. The only body I recognized (besides, Thor, Loki, and Heimdall) was that of one of the gladiators, the one with the helmet that looked like a nut. So what happened to her? And Korg, for that matter?
One happy thought - perhaps she took Grandmaster's ship and went off on her own, between the coronation and the encounter with Thanos' ship. We see it on the back of the big ship, just before the coronation...I don't see it on the back of the big ship, at the mid credits scene, though perhaps it is just the wrong angle.

Last edited by galen ubal; 04-26-2018 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:53 AM
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Well, that had a lot going on.

For those who stuck around to the end credit scene, the last shot is of a symbol that will solve all the problems. Between now and the next Avengers movie will be two other Marvel films. Ant-Man and the Wasp may or may not address some of what happened with the Quantum Realm, but Captain Marvel, which is a prequel set largely in the 90s and may involve time-travel, is where a seed is sure to be introduced that will help solve the cliffhanger.
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:41 AM
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Even if Avengers 4 has the massive reset button at the end, that still means that for Marvel's biggest, baddest movie to date they've just taken out the black guy since they can't figure out what to do with him
Black Panther has been their most successful movie to date, I think they figured out what to do with him pretty well. They are also very obviously not going to get rid of him.
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by MostlyClueless View Post
Even if Avengers 4 has the massive reset button at the end, that still means that for Marvel's biggest, baddest movie to date they've just taken out the black guy since they can't figure out what to do with him, while his white male cohorts can spend 2+ hours being angsty about their loved ones being fridged.
Dude, you have way too much invested in the "They killed the black dude!" to be healthy. Fiege has already said, in public, that Black Panther 2 was a go whenever the director wants it.

Avengers 4 will be a massive reset...just not to exactly what was before. They will use it to cap arcs by everybody whose contracts are finished.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:27 PM
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I had no idea that Peter Dinklage was in this movie. He never appeared in any of the previews I saw, nor any of the press junkets and talk shows, nor in any press releases that I read. Casting him as the galaxy's largest dwarf was pure genius.

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One thing I am curious about - what happened to Valkyrie (Tessa Thompson's character)?
Thanos only kills half of any populace, including the Asgardians. (Thor said as much in the movie.) Presumably Valkyrie fled with the other half of the Asgardians.
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:15 PM
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Actually, all of the characters who've had sequels announced died. Black Panther, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, the Guardians - all dead. Even Bucky Barnes and Sam Wilson, who everyone assumes are the maiin candidates for taking the mantle of Captain America after Chris Evans leave, both died. And who survived? Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner - all characters played by actors whose contracts end after the next Avengers film.

I find that very reassuring. It means that the story isn't over yet.

Oh, and I'd bet money that Marvel will release a trailer for Avengers 4 about six weeks from now that will strongly hint that most or all of the characters who disintegrated at the end will be coming back to life.

Last edited by Alessan; 04-26-2018 at 04:17 PM.
  #15  
Old 04-26-2018, 09:14 PM
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Actually, all of the characters who've had sequels announced died. Black Panther, Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, the Guardians - all dead. Even Bucky Barnes and Sam Wilson, who everyone assumes are the maiin candidates for taking the mantle of Captain America after Chris Evans leave, both died. And who survived? Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Bruce Banner - all characters played by actors whose contracts end after the next Avengers film.
It's also a nifty bit of cliff-hanger storytelling - everyone was kinda braced for Tony Stark or Cap to bite it, and they went so far as to give Tony a pretty serious edge-of-death moment, but no. It's everyone else!

It's a better, more elegant fake-out than Whedon's build-up to Hawkeye-no-wait-Quicksilver in Age of Ultron. All those little tropey moments that would have pointed to Hawkeye dying - but everyone expects that from Whedon, so nobody thought in the moment that Hawkeye would die, it was just a question of how he'd be saved.

Last edited by tavalla; 04-26-2018 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:43 PM
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Just got done watching it. Thought it was about as well done as a movie with so many characters and so much to accomplish could be, which puts it IMO as an almost but not quite top tier Marvel movie (better than Avengers 2, not as good as Avengers).

Quite obviously most of the dead heroes will come back; most certainly Black Panther, Spiderman, Dr. Strange, and the Guardians. The interesting thing will be how.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:43 PM
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Speaking of Hawkeye why even bother keeping everyone in suspense?
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Old 04-27-2018, 01:57 AM
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The big question before this movie was "Where is the Soul Stone?" And, the answer is... Red Skull has it! I never saw that coming, even though I knew the Tesseract must have teleported him away in Captain America instead of just killing him.
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:51 AM
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As I was watching that scene I thought "Hmm, that sounds like Hugo Weaving. Wait, isn't Hugo Weaving already in the MCU?" Then they revealed him. "Oh wow! Yeah he is!!"
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Old 04-27-2018, 04:44 AM
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That wasn't Hugo Weaving.
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:03 AM
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It was freaking Aaron from Walking Dead? that I did not realize.
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:17 AM
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Well I'll be hornswoggled. Definitely fooled me. He looks a bit like him too.

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Old 04-27-2018, 05:42 AM
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When I heard the voice, I didn't think it was Weaving, I thought it was the guy who plays Littlefinger on Game of Thrones (which is also wrong). But it was a nice surprise anyway.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:07 AM
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Saw it last night. The ending was disappointing as hell. If they hadn't killed off Spider-Man and Black Panther, I might think they'd let some of the deaths stick, but since they're contractually obligated to make Spider-Man 2, we know that the next film is going to be Infinity Gauntlet and that most of the deaths are going to be reversed.

That said, the rest of the movie was incredible. It's just frustrating that those two minor choices totally hamstring the expectations for the next movie.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:20 AM
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Saw it last night. The ending was disappointing as hell. If they hadn't killed off Spider-Man and Black Panther, I might think they'd let some of the deaths stick, but since they're contractually obligated to make Spider-Man 2, we know that the next film is going to be Infinity Gauntlet and that most of the deaths are going to be reversed.

That said, the rest of the movie was incredible. It's just frustrating that those two minor choices totally hamstring the expectations for the next movie.
I thought it quite nicely subverted expectations. I expected Cap and Tony to die and not the "new" heroes like Spiderman and BP, and that was a big surprise. Even if they'll obviously be brought back.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:35 AM
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And, given the storytelling so far, I'd fully expect those restorations to come with a price.

I'm kind of thinking that the next one won't pick up where Infinity War left off: I'm expecting more of a parallel timeline thing, where we see what characters who weren't in IW were up to. Granted, there aren't many - but whatever Hawkeye was doing, the Russos have hinted it was more than just knocking out the east wall in the dining room at the family farmhouse. Then, third act or so, they'll join up the stories and pick up from the current end-of-IW position.

Last edited by tavalla; 04-27-2018 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:36 AM
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I don't know...I think having them die knowing they'll be brought back for future franchises cheapens their deaths somehow. It's like their sacrifice didn't mean as much (for the informed viewer). Maybe they should have picked someone else to die that could just...stay dead?
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:05 AM
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Maybe they're not dead, and they're just in a parallel universe.

Having said that, I think the ones that did actually die, like Loki and Gamora and Vision, will not be returning. Those were probably permanent.
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:08 AM
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Did anyone else see during the credits "Character from Arrested Development used with permissions from blah blah blah"?
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:15 AM
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Maybe they're not dead, and they're just in a parallel universe.

Having said that, I think the ones that did actually die, like Loki and Gamora and Vision, will not be returning. Those were probably permanent.
I agree...except I think Vision comes back as a slightly nerfed model.
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:28 AM
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How many times did they use the:

Good guy: "I'm not giving you what you want!"
Thanos: "Fine! Watch me hurt a loved one!"
GG: "Fuck! Here you go... take it."

sequence in this film? 5? 6?

Last edited by JohnT; 04-27-2018 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:43 AM
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How many times did they use the:

Good guy: "I'm not giving you what you want!"
Thanos: "Fine! Watch me hurt a loved one!"
GG: "Fuck! Here you go... take it."

sequence in this film? 5? 6?
Just Loki and Gamora.
  #33  
Old 04-27-2018, 08:53 AM
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How many times did they use the:

Good guy: "I'm not giving you what you want!"
Thanos: "Fine! Watch me hurt a loved one!"
GG: "Fuck! Here you go... take it."

sequence in this film? 5? 6?
Yeah, that annoyed me a bit too. I also found it out of character for some of these characters (Loki and Gomora mostly).

What Dr. Strange is concerned, it is pretty obvious to me that all this fits in his "one in 14 million" scenarios. He has no reason to care about Iron Man that much, hell he told him explicitly that he would let him die to protect the stone. When he gave the stone up, he says something like "this had to happen" to Tony.

Off course the list of dead or vanished characters makes it clear that things will be undone, although disappearing in thin air is not exactly a "sacrifice", but I think it sets up a nice sequel. Pretty sure we are going to see the original avengers (from the first movie) taking on Thanos, Hawkeye comes back because he lost a kid or something... maybe even led by Colson. And to make it happen, Cap and Iron Man sacrifcie themselves (for real this time).

The only character I'm sure is not coming back, is Loki. They even say it in the movie!
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:54 AM
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The only character I'm sure is not coming back, is Loki. They even say it in the movie!
Both Thanos and Thor said it, which actually makes me think the exact opposite.
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:53 AM
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Saw it last night and thought it was great. I need to see it again to process everything. The action was nonstop from the opening scene to the ending and I couldn't take my eyes from the screen.

I always hated how the comic book series ended with Thanos living as a fucking farmer, but I can kind of see how the movie ends with Thanos' sense of contentment and feeling of a job well done as being the sort of feeling the comics were going for. The other major change in the general plot I noticed (it has been many, many years since I read the series) was that Thanos was trying to get Death to love him in the comic where in the movie he is trying, in his mind, to help the universe and prevent over population.

Anyway, I thought it was a good movie, but the ending, even though I expected it and knew the deaths were coming left us all with a sunken feeling. So, the movie makers succeeded as that was obviously what they were going for.
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Old 04-27-2018, 10:01 AM
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The only character I'm sure is not coming back, is Loki. They even say it in the movie!
The only permadead character in Marvel is Ben Parker.

That said, I think the MCU will leave anybody not dusted dead at the end of Avengers 4. But, as you mentioned, I also think the fix will require great sacrifice by Tony and Steve, among others.
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Old 04-27-2018, 10:37 AM
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[...] I can kind of see how the movie ends with Thanos' sense of contentment and feeling of a job well done [...]
Except of course the "job" was completely pointless even from his own ruthless standpoint. I wanted to yell at the screen "Dude, have you ever even heard of the concept of EXPONENTIAL GROWTH in population dynamics?"

I mean ffs, the Earth's human population more than doubled just in the 40 years from 1950 to 1990. Killing off half of all humanoid life isn't going to save anybody's environment: at best it just buys you a few decades' delay while the populations bounce back to where they were before. That's not even the blink of an eye on cosmological time scales. Not even the flicker of an eyelash.

In short, Thanos' great Genocide Quest would have been a complete futile bust as an ecological measure, even if you leave out all the catastrophic trauma and suffering.

Human(oid) societies become environmentally sustainable for the long term not by taking a one-time massive hit to their population, but by making deliberate choices about their environmental policies and birthrates. (Massive hits to the population can even result in societies ultimately becoming less environmentally sustainable long-term, as in the Thanos-like impact of the Black Death in late 14th-century England, which destroyed something like a third of the population in two years and hastened the process of "enclosure" and conversion of diverse environments to pasture.)

Thanos would have been far more effective in his stated aim of saving the habitable universe by just handing out condoms on a galactic scale and teaching the assorted peasantry about simple renewable-energy technologies. But I guess you can't make a superhero movie about that.
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Old 04-27-2018, 10:41 AM
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Except of course the "job" was completely pointless even from his own ruthless standpoint. I wanted to yell at the screen "Dude, have you ever even heard of the concept of EXPONENTIAL GROWTH in population dynamics?"
Well, we also can't forget the fact that the infinity stones make him basically omnipotent, just having them makes the whole over population problem easily solvable by infinite other ways besides killing half the population. Killing half the universe had to be the actual goal for the killing itself to make sense, the moment you make it a solution to a different problem the whole plot falls apart.
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Old 04-27-2018, 10:46 AM
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Killing half the universe had to be the actual goal for the killing itself to make sense, the moment you make it a solution to a different problem the whole plot falls apart.
Okay, but it was Thanos himself who consistently represented the 50% genocide as a long-term solution to environmental destruction caused by overpopulation. Was he just fooling himself, or did he think he was fooling his adversaries? I'm pretty sure that Stark and Banner and Strange, for example, are familiar with the concept of exponential growth in population dynamics.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:10 AM
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The Gauntlet is not a single-use item, and Thanos is immortal. Maybe he plans to snap his fingers every 50 years or so.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:19 AM
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A policy not especially conducive to maintaining the universe in the desired state of gratitude, ISTM.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:38 AM
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Really enjoyable... completely useless to anyone who hasn't kept up with the franchise but, since I have kept up with the franchise I really enjoyed it.

Very frustrated about the fate of the Asgardians. All of Thor's accomplishments and the hope that was set up at the end of Ragnarok was immediately shat upon. There is dialog in this film, from Thor himself even, that says that half of the Asgardians were killed but that doesn't seem to fit with what we saw on screen. When the Guardians arrived to meet the distress signal, the ship was completely destroyed. They had to have all been dead.

I honestly don't think I'll be able to form a full opinion until seeing Captain Marvel and the Infinity War sequel. Most of the major deaths lacked any kind of real emotional impact since we know from the announced slate of sequels that we saw a lot of people die who are not going to stay dead... not just the "dusting" deaths. Does anyone really believe there will be no Gamora in GotG 3?

So, that says "Reset Button" to me and Reset Buttons usually suck.

They've got a good track record, so I am holding out hope that they'll figure out a way to make the Reset Button something interesting or clever or in some other way more satisfying that a Reset Button usually is but I'm not 100% sure it won't be stupid and cheap.

So, yeah, I guess it will be a year before I'll be able to say with certainty whether or not Footloose is still the greatest movie of all time.
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Old 04-27-2018, 11:39 AM
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The Gauntlet is not a single-use item, and Thanos is immortal. Maybe he plans to snap his fingers every 50 years or so.
It looked crumpled and destroyed after its final task.
  #44  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:10 PM
Lasciel Lasciel is offline
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Originally Posted by GuanoLad View Post
It looked crumpled and destroyed after its final task.
So did his arm on that side.
  #45  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:15 PM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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Originally Posted by bienville View Post
Very frustrated about the fate of the Asgardians. All of Thor's accomplishments and the hope that was set up at the end of Ragnarok was immediately shat upon. There is dialog in this film, from Thor himself even, that says that half of the Asgardians were killed but that doesn't seem to fit with what we saw on screen. When the Guardians arrived to meet the distress signal, the ship was completely destroyed. They had to have all been dead.
I assume there just wasn't enough time to show everything, I felt the same about the first gem and what happened in Xandar.
  #46  
Old 04-27-2018, 12:21 PM
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silenus silenus is offline
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Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
I assume there just wasn't enough time to show everything, I felt the same about the first gem and what happened in Xandar.
I feel pretty sure all the Asgardians aren't dead. That would mess Thor and Valkyrie up too much. But Marvel may be holding the Xandar storyline for the introduction of Nova sometime during Phase 4.
  #47  
Old 04-27-2018, 02:35 PM
Lance Turbo Lance Turbo is offline
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Originally Posted by GuanoLad View Post
As I was watching that scene I thought "Hmm, that sounds like Hugo Weaving. Wait, isn't Hugo Weaving already in the MCU?" Then they revealed him. "Oh wow! Yeah he is!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by tavalla View Post
Ross Marquand does impressions. Maybe he does a Hugo Weaving impression.
  #48  
Old 04-27-2018, 02:47 PM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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I haven't run the math yet, but I have the suspicion his "50% off" button is both racist and sexist. Yes, I'm pissed about Black Panther never getting any sequels..
There will be Black Panther sequels.
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  #49  
Old 04-27-2018, 03:13 PM
Quimby Quimby is offline
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I just came back. I enjoyed it. It felt like a really good episode of a TV show I really like.

I do think if another franchise had tried an ending like this that is definitely going to get reset I think people would get angry but the MCU has a lot of good will built up.

When I saw the Red Skull I thought my prediction was going to come to pass but instead the decades made the Red Skull mellow and weird.

So what was the Arrested Development reference? The credits mentioned they used a character with permission.
  #50  
Old 04-27-2018, 03:30 PM
DigitalC DigitalC is offline
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Originally Posted by Quimby View Post

So what was the Arrested Development reference? The credits mentioned they used a character with permission.
There was a bald blue guy with glasses a mustache and short shorts prominently shown in one brief shot in the collector's place.
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