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  #101  
Old 10-15-2018, 08:49 AM
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... Sort of a heroic super-nerd, brains over brawn, a tiny bit of a teacher, but also a bit too full of himself; and of course, "never cowardly nor cruel." ...
So part 2 - how well does she inhabit that character so far? I'm still deciding but of course it took me a few each eps to decide each regeneration before too.

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... I'm always slightly annoyed when an alien race we've never heard of before suddenly becomes a ubiquitous Big Bad; I know you can't plan too far ahead on these things but it always feels abrupt. And then they go away suddenly (I mean, who cares about the Silence now?). And we've got yet another Mystery From The Doctor's Past and'or catchphrase/nickname ("Timeless Child") that random alien beings taunt the Doctor about. After, what, two millennia of life you'd have thought all these things would have been revealed by now. ...
The alternative is constant Daleks or no Big Bad for a series so its an illogical bit that's a reasonable price to pay.
  #102  
Old 10-15-2018, 03:53 PM
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This episode felt a bit introductory---sort of going through all the major elements of the Doctor, as a character, what she does, and the whole deal. Kinda like opening the door for potential new viewers. That made it a bit generic, unfortunately. Still, I'm liking Whittaker in the role, and I'm just excited to have the Doctor back!
  #103  
Old 10-15-2018, 09:10 PM
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One thing that I don't think I will warm to is the new TARDIS interior. I've never been a fan of organic design at the best of times, and this one just looks all flash and no bang, like there's no logic to it. There are steampunk elements to the console, but that's lost in amongst the crystals-for-no-reason aesthetic.

Also, the tiny TARDIS that spins is a lame addition.

It's early days, there's a small chance I will change my mind, but I'm not feeling it at all. My favourite design was Eleven's.
  #104  
Old 10-15-2018, 11:36 PM
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One thing that I don't think I will warm to is the new TARDIS interior. I've never been a fan of organic design at the best of times, and this one just looks all flash and no bang, like there's no logic to it. There are steampunk elements to the console, but that's lost in amongst the crystals-for-no-reason aesthetic.

Also, the tiny TARDIS that spins is a lame addition.

It's early days, there's a small chance I will change my mind, but I'm not feeling it at all. My favourite design was Eleven's.
It’s also too dark. I mean, from what little I saw of it, it seemed like a cave.

Just rewatched both episodes, and found them improved on second viewing. As has been stated, I like the fact that the new friends are just an ordinary group of folks who got caught up in the mess the Doctor was fixing. That said, they all seem to suggest a bit of competence - Ryan asks smart questions, Yaz is a cop, and Graham has some common sense (“Now they’re all running toward the alien!”). Got a good feeling about this group. And the diversity doesn’t seem forced or tokenish - more like a simple acknowledgement that if you scoop up an random group of Britons, a black or South Asian person is just as likely as a white one.

As for the Doctor, I wonder if the key to her character will be the way she’s described herself. She’s not the War Doctor, or the Oncoming Storm, or the one who’s name is the greatest secret in the galaxy; she’s merely a traveler, who tries to help whenever she finds someone in trouble.

Of course, the whole “Timeless Child” thing seems to suggest another question-of-the-Doctor’s-identity arc; but for these two episodes, she does seem like merely the woman who sorts out fair play for the universe.

Last edited by Slow Moving Vehicle; 10-15-2018 at 11:38 PM.
  #105  
Old 10-16-2018, 12:18 AM
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I’m just glad the sniper-bots didn’t have emoji faces or some other kind of Moffat bullshit.
  #106  
Old 10-16-2018, 01:01 AM
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After the two episodes I am liking Whittaker's Doctor. Having a young eager Doctor after an old Doctor is refreshing.

I like the three companions deal. It works and feels comfortable and not at all forced.

I liked the episodes stories and am eager to find out where the writer's are going to take this new Doctor.
  #107  
Old 10-16-2018, 05:44 AM
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Iím just glad the sniper-bots didnít have emoji faces or some other kind of Moffat bullshit.
More like Stormtrooperbots. For "snipers" they didn't seem to be able to hit much.

Did we ever find out who moved the planet and why?
  #108  
Old 10-16-2018, 06:19 AM
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Did we ever find out who moved the planet and why?
I saw someone speculate that the TARDIS was causing the planet to phase in and out and mess up its orbit. Not sure how that would work, but it's a theory.
  #109  
Old 10-16-2018, 07:43 AM
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I think the new Doctor and new show-runner is what Doctor Who desperately needed. I wanted very much to like Capaldi but the plots and writing put together for him by Steven Moffat were overall terrible. And this is as one of the rare Clara fans. Last year I had given up on the show.

Chris Chibnall seems to have reinvigorated the show. After the first year of Matt Smith and a short boost with Clara added, Doctor Who had stopped be a very good show and struggled to be a good show. These 1st two episodes were very entertaining. Jodie Whittaker seems up to the task and the companions are fine so far.
  #110  
Old 10-16-2018, 07:45 AM
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Indeed the Police Box as a vestibule to another space seemed contrived to get away from the "it's bigger on the inside ..." tradition.

I do though overall like the look and feel of the show.
  #111  
Old 10-17-2018, 12:09 AM
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And this is as one of the rare Clara fans.
I loved Clara.
  #112  
Old 10-17-2018, 01:28 AM
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The show feels bigger and more cinematic. OTOH, it's just not holding my attention as much. Maybe now the Tardis is back it will come back into place. Also, I don't know why it is, but I feel like Jodie is as much of a stand in for the audience as the companions. Her presence isn't exactly reassuring. Not sure why but I don't think it's just because she's a woman. I think her ratio of questions asked to answered is almost on par with the companions.
  #113  
Old 10-18-2018, 04:22 AM
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I'm hoping that now she's back in the TARDIS the "new Doctor" thing will fade away and the show will settle down. That said, I have misgivings about a Rosa Parks-based episode, both because hammering in an alien invasion to her story could require a major stretch and because the temptation to preach will be high.
  #114  
Old 10-18-2018, 08:50 AM
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I'm hoping that now she's back in the TARDIS the "new Doctor" thing will fade away and the show will settle down. That said, I have misgivings about a Rosa Parks-based episode, both because hammering in an alien invasion to her story could require a major stretch and because the temptation to preach will be high.
Rosa Parks is a good place to preach if done right. If they go the route of one person can change the world and they do it well, it could be amazing. If it is a silly episode and a hamfisted message it will be dreadful.
  #115  
Old 10-18-2018, 09:13 AM
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Rosa Parks is a good place to preach if done right. If they go the route of one person can change the world and they do it well, it could be amazing. If it is a silly episode and a hamfisted message it will be dreadful.
I'm trying to keep an open mind - but -
UK shows and movies don't really understand US race relations. They often end up feeling just wrong. (I also really don't trust this particular showrunner after the mess that was Broadchurch. He's willing to sacrifice narrative, logic, plot, realism, and character to get a cinematic shot or a dramatic moment.)
  #116  
Old 10-18-2018, 10:07 AM
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Rosa Parks is a good place to preach if done right. If they go the route of one person can change the world and they do it well, it could be amazing. If it is a silly episode and a hamfisted message it will be dreadful.
It seems to me that the biggest risk, given the standard Doctor Who narrative of The Doctor Shows Up and Saves Us All, lies in inadvertently writing a story where a white person solves racism.
  #117  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:14 PM
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I'm hoping that now she's back in the TARDIS the "new Doctor" thing will fade away and the show will settle down. That said, I have misgivings about a Rosa Parks-based episode, both because hammering in an alien invasion to her story could require a major stretch and because the temptation to preach will be high.
Well, although it was a different crew I think they did a great job with Nixon back in the Matt Smith era. I'm used to seeing the typical Baby Boomer portrayal of Nixon as some combination of a fiendish master plotter and bumbling nincompoop who's the most awful person to ever sit in the White House, and figured that's what they'd do. But they presented him as no more bumbling than other leaders who get pushed around by the doctor, and no more evil than any other world leader, so I was pleasantly surprised.

Though amarinth is right that there's a strong possibility for something REALLY cringeworthy to come out when Brits try to write a story about American race relations.
  #118  
Old 10-18-2018, 12:44 PM
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Hopefully it's just a bit in which they somehow got in the way of history and have to undo the possible damage they did.

Who does best with race issues by just acting fairly blind to it. Many couples and families who just happen to be mixed (this crew inclusive) and rarely a big issue over what color someone happens to be. The times they tried to address racism in history, like in some of the Martha eps, did not come off so great.
  #119  
Old 10-18-2018, 02:41 PM
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Hopefully it's just a bit in which they somehow got in the way of history and have to undo the possible damage they did.

Who does best with race issues by just acting fairly blind to it. Many couples and families who just happen to be mixed (this crew inclusive) and rarely a big issue over what color someone happens to be. The times they tried to address racism in history, like in some of the Martha eps, did not come off so great.
Agreed. One of the Doctor's fundamental qualities is his/her ability, or willingness, to see the essential personhood of every being he/she encounters, irrespective of race or gender or tentacle count. It would very much be in character for 13 to not even notice that humans divide themselves up into different races according to the color of our skins, or realize there was something unusual about Graham and Grace's marriage. I could easily see Yaz or Ryan having to explain to her why Rosa Parks' refusal to move to the back of the bus was a big deal.
  #120  
Old 10-18-2018, 10:49 PM
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I have to say, I'm not sure I'm sold on the new Doctor. The whole "I'm not really sure what's going on" thing almost makes her seem like her own companion. Traditionally, the Doctor is a bit of a mad pompous jerk, with the companions vacillating between awe and wonder at their experience and serving as a foil to keep the Doctor grounded.

Although I am kind of curious to see if Missy returns.




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Though amarinth is right that there's a strong possibility for something REALLY cringeworthy to come out when Brits try to write a story about American race relations.
Not to mention that episodes about Earth human racism or Hitler and WWII seem absurd in the context of the Who universe where The Doctor and his companions routinely encounter genocide on an interstellar scale.
  #121  
Old 10-18-2018, 11:17 PM
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Not to mention that episodes about Earth human racism or Hitler and WWII seem absurd in the context of the Who universe where The Doctor and his companions routinely encounter genocide on an interstellar scale.
Or where the Doctor has COMMITTED genocide on an interstellar scale.
  #122  
Old 10-19-2018, 02:48 AM
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I have to say, I'm not sure I'm sold on the new Doctor. The whole "I'm not really sure what's going on" thing almost makes her seem like her own companion. Traditionally, the Doctor is a bit of a mad pompous jerk, with the companions vacillating between awe and wonder at their experience and serving as a foil to keep the Doctor grounded.

Although I am kind of curious to see if Missy returns.
Yeah. I don't know, maybe in the long run it's a good thing, but so far Jodie feels too... relatable? There was always a sense that The Doctor was on a different level, kind of viewing companions as beloved pets he likes to "show off" to? Maybe not always an outright jerk, but almost never without a hint of arrogance? 13 is almost self deprecating. Maybe they want 13 to be above that on purpose? Maybe it will pay off, but it does feel off.

Missy would be interesting. A small run in with Clara would be amusing
  #123  
Old 10-19-2018, 06:56 AM
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I loved Clara.
+1
  #124  
Old 10-19-2018, 06:16 PM
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Yeah. I don't know, maybe in the long run it's a good thing, but so far Jodie feels too... relatable? There was always a sense that The Doctor was on a different level, kind of viewing companions as beloved pets he likes to "show off" to? Maybe not always an outright jerk, but almost never without a hint of arrogance? 13 is almost self deprecating. Maybe they want 13 to be above that on purpose? Maybe it will pay off, but it does feel off.
I think it's pretty deliberate on the part of the writers: for all their occasional self-doubt {or perhaps because of it}, previous Doctors have been ostentatiously the smartest person in the room, the guy who exults in knowing more than everyone else. Whittaker's Doctor seems more comfortable admitting that she doesn't always know what's going on, but is going to make it her job to find out.

That, coupled with the fact that these companions are extremely capable and self-assured - sometimes too much so: Ryan and Graham being able to figure out the boat engine by themselves was a little unconvincing - means that these stories seem to more about a collaboration of equals. A newish dynamic for the show, but I could get to like it.

Also, for people who think that the Senior White Male is being done down by all of these minorities and women, when was the last time you saw one being depicted as sympathetically as Bradley Walsh's portrayal of Graham? Graham is just cool: smart, tough, brave, and immensely empathetic. So far he's the stand-out companion for me: Yaz hasn't had much to do, and Ryan is too pouty.

Also: Venusian aikido! Not as flashy as the Pertwee variant, but extremely effective.
  #125  
Old 10-19-2018, 06:39 PM
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And when was the last time you saw the Doctor admit that s/he had screwed up and endangered everyone, frankly take responsibility for it and apologise to them, and go on to acknowledge that they were being gracious in not complaining about being thrown into weirdness and danger? I'm starting to like this side of the Doctor, and full credit to Jodie Whittaker for selling such a character transition.
  #126  
Old 10-19-2018, 07:56 PM
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Each showrunner that's come on board has tried to fix what they perceive as broken or has holes in their logic, and also to expand on the things that they like about the show and character.

Russell T Davies had the hardest job in trying to restart in with an entirely new aesthetic, but he did so by having much more rounded and complex character dynamics, influenced heavily by his love of Buffy The Vampire Slayer, with series-long story arcs and epic concepts with impressive special effects.

Steven Moffatt loves mystery box ideas, and wanted some of the original series inconsistencies papered over. He also had a great love for classic series villains. He reintroduced the rest of the big ten that Davies never got around to.

Chris Chibnall is reacting to both of them and pulling back on those big ideas this time, I think. His contribution, aside from a female Doctor, looks to be more empathy and smaller stakes. At least for a first series where everything is new from the ground up, that's the right approach in my opinion.
  #127  
Old 10-19-2018, 09:20 PM
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Yeah. I don't know, maybe in the long run it's a good thing, but so far Jodie feels too... relatable? There was always a sense that The Doctor was on a different level, kind of viewing companions as beloved pets he likes to "show off" to? Maybe not always an outright jerk, but almost never without a hint of arrogance? 13 is almost self deprecating. Maybe they want 13 to be above that on purpose? Maybe it will pay off, but it does feel off.
My point exactly. Although frequently the female companion would knock The Doctor down a peg.
  #128  
Old 10-21-2018, 05:19 PM
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Just caught up - I don't think I like the new arrangement of the theme music, but it may grow on me.
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Originally Posted by msmith537
The whole "I'm not really sure what's going on" thing almost makes her seem like her own companion. Traditionally, the Doctor is a bit of a mad pompous jerk, with the companions vacillating between awe and wonder at their experience and serving as a foil to keep the Doctor grounded.
Seems like Smith in particular often referred to 'stupid, stupid Doctor', and she did announce that "I'm very smart".

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Ryan and Graham being able to figure out the boat engine by themselves was a little unconvincing
I don't think that Ryan and Graham repaired the engine - Graham admitted he had no idea how it worked. Ryan did figure out it was some form of solar electric, but at that point the Doctor showed up, congratulated them on being clever, and presumably used her sonic to do the actual repairs.
  #129  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:24 PM
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I was afraid "Rosa" was going to be a very special episode but they did a great job addressing the institutional racism of the south without being preachy about it. Segregation was(is) horrible and dehumanizing but that was the way things were and I think the cast did a great job showing how uncomfortable any of us would be if dropped back to that time period where racism was a casual thing.

The week's big-bad left something to be desired. I can't even remember his name, such was the impression he made. Had no clue as to his motivation beyond somehow Mrs Parks not being asked to give up her seat would have somehow made the entire civil rights movement not happen. Sadly, since we didn't get a scene of him being eaten by a dinosaur, I think he will be back.

Overall though, I think it was a great episode. The tension as The Doctor and her companions had to let history happen and that Graham, a gentleman out of time, had to be the one, essentially, to instigate it, was palpable.

I wasn't sure about having a female Doctor, kind of felt like a stunt, but Jodi Whittaker is growing on me. It is still about The Doctor, not about "look, the Doctor is a girl!"
  #130  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:41 PM
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The week's big-bad left something to be desired. I can't even remember his name, such was the impression he made. Had no clue as to his motivation beyond somehow Mrs Parks not being asked to give up her seat would have somehow made the entire civil rights movement not happen.
...he was an alt-right white supremacist. He can't kill any more so he decided to meddle with history instead. I personally didn't think they needed to say any more than that.
  #131  
Old 10-21-2018, 10:45 PM
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I really like Jodie Whittaker's Doctor. I hope the show doesn't try to make the character too miserable.

I liked Matt Smith's Doctor, but he seemed to get more defeated and despondent over time, and when the Ponds were written out, I quit watching. I gave up on the show until this season.
  #132  
Old 10-21-2018, 11:20 PM
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...he was an alt-right white supremacist. He can't kill any more so he decided to meddle with history instead. I personally didn't think they needed to say any more than that.
Wow, an alt-right racist? Are you sure about that? Is it the tattoo?

I'm pretty sure that racism can exist outside of our contemporary political context, especially in a character supposedly from some 6000 years in the future.
  #133  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:04 AM
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Wow, an alt-right racist?
...yep.

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Are you sure about that? Is it the tattoo?
It was the witty personality and the sparkling demeanour.

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I'm pretty sure that racism can exist outside of our contemporary political context, especially in a character supposedly from some 6000 years in the future.
Welcome to science fiction. Science fiction often uses it futuristic premise to tell stories with contemporary political context.
  #134  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:08 AM
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The week's big-bad left something to be desired. I can't even remember his name, such was the impression he made. Had no clue as to his motivation beyond somehow Mrs Parks not being asked to give up her seat would have somehow made the entire civil rights movement not happen. Sadly, since we didn't get a scene of him being eaten by a dinosaur, I think he will be back.
Krasko. His motivation appears to be racism, which I found strangely refreshing in a sci-fi medium where prejudice is usually transferred into some "humans vs aliens" context (that one Star Trek episode notwithstanding). The idea that humans will eventually transcend petty bigotry is very Roddenberry but not very realistic. Krasko was just your basic racist asshole (although I suppose the fact that he never specifically articulated this means that we could get some alternative interpretation of what he meant by "your kind", but one hopes they won't do that). And yes, he will undoubtedly be back.

As predicted, it got preachy although it mostly held off until the end where the volume got turned up to 11 ("LET'S LOOK AT THIS TERRIBLE TARDIS MONITOR WHILE THE DOCTOR GIVES THE AUDIENCE A LECTURE ON WHY ROSA PARKS IS IMPORTANT. ALSO, SHE GOT A ROCK." I thought the idea of trying to alter history through little things was a clever one, but the creepy stalking of Rosa by the Doctor and crew was more likely to mess things up than most of Krasko's meddling. And the liberal angst at the climax was a tad overblown ("OH NO - TO SAVE THE WORLD WE HAVE TO SIT ON A BUS AND APPEAR TO BE MILDLY RACIST").

Some good points - we got to meet Mr Parks without it being a big thing (hands up who knew she'd married a white guy?), and Ryan's meeting with MLK was an excellent moment. Also, we keep getting little hints dropped here and there to show how Graham and Ryan are missing Grace (who, from their timeline standpoint, died very recently). So a mixed bag as usual.
  #135  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:24 AM
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And the liberal angst at the climax was a tad overblown
Was it? I'd feel equally as horrible if I had to do something like that.
  #136  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:51 AM
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Heís a middle aged white man from England who was married to a black woman. We never had any form of segregation here and whilst racisim was and still can be an issue not on that scale. So itís not overblown that he was awkward and felt terrible. I actually thought they were going to make him drive the bus...
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  #137  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:01 AM
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Heís a middle aged white man from England who was married to a black woman. We never had any form of segregation here and whilst racisim was and still can be an issue not on that scale. So itís not overblown that he was awkward and felt terrible. I actually thought they were going to make him drive the bus...
I admit I thought that for a moment too. And your point is taken. On the other hand, what else could they do but sit there?
  #138  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:38 AM
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I liked that the plot resolution was basically making sure that a bus ran on time and that it had a lot off passengers aboard.
  #139  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:51 AM
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And this is as one of the rare Clara fans.
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I loved Clara.
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Not so rare, I think you'll find. I liked her too.
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Old 10-22-2018, 08:08 AM
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They avoided some major pitfalls. Kept the story more along the lines of letting history unfold (not undoing what they inadvertently caused but similar enough). Didn't pretend that the U.K. is free of racism itself. And her Doctor is now getting some of her swagger.

Still Krasko (they couldn't fit one more K, eh?) couldn't kill Parks but couldn't he still could have temporally displaced her at any time?

Also I expected The Doctor to be a bit more upset and concerned that Krasko was sent back as far as possible.

I for one do not expect him to be back. He's no Big Bad, just a weak one week one off needed for the story.
  #141  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:11 AM
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Still Krasko (they couldn't fit one more K, eh?)
Kraksko scans OK...

Last edited by MrDibble; 10-22-2018 at 08:11 AM.
  #142  
Old 10-22-2018, 08:55 AM
MrAtoz MrAtoz is offline
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Also I expected The Doctor to be a bit more upset and concerned that Krasko was sent back as far as possible.
Me, too. I expected the Doctor to have some major criticism of Ryan for doing that.

I also knew that he was going to do it. Why else have her give him that mini-tutorial on how the temporal displacement gun worked?

This episode worked better than I had hoped. They did avoid making the Doctor the force behind the Civil Rights Movement, and it wasn't "The Doctor and Rosa Parks team up to fight aliens" (something that often happens when the Doctor meets well-known historical figures). I liked that they acknowledged that Rosa Parks did not have an easy time of it after that--she and her husband both losing their jobs, etc.--and that it took an awfully long time before the country really began to honor her.

On another note, it probably doesn't mean anything terribly profound, but I notice that Graham consistently calls the Doctor "Doc," and she seems okay with it. Historically the Doctor hasn't much liked that nickname. To quote the First Doctor: "Kindly refrain from addressing me as 'Doc!'"
  #143  
Old 10-22-2018, 09:15 AM
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Episode was intense.
I'm sure Krasko will reappear. The Doctor has her reasons for not getting on Ryan's case for that move.
A friend speculated that his motive in derailing history wasn't racism per se, but that he wanted to alter the civil rights movement because in his time, this was the first step in an ultimately unified Earth which, in the Doctor Who universe, is something Krasko's people in the future are enemies of.
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  #144  
Old 10-22-2018, 10:56 AM
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The best so far. The attempt to get the timeline on track was tense and exciting. I could have done without the history lecture at the end, thought since the show was conceived as a way of teaching history, I guess it's OK.

Still trying to get a feel for the new Doctor, but I think she's just fine.
  #145  
Old 10-22-2018, 11:28 AM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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Some good points - we got to meet Mr Parks without it being a big thing (hands up who knew she'd married a white guy?),
Didn't Alabama have anti-miscegenation laws at the time? I took the show's Mr Parks to be a light-skinned "colored" man. In real life, Raymond Parks had visible "colored" features.
  #146  
Old 10-22-2018, 01:42 PM
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Didn't Alabama have anti-miscegenation laws at the time? I took the show's Mr Parks to be a light-skinned "colored" man. In real life, Raymond Parks had visible "colored" features.
David Rubin (the actor who played Raymond Parks) is black, although light-skinned as you noted.
  #147  
Old 10-22-2018, 02:59 PM
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Didn't Alabama have anti-miscegenation laws at the time?.
Yes.
  #148  
Old 10-22-2018, 03:47 PM
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Half Man Half Wit Half Man Half Wit is offline
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I didn't like the villain very much, but I kind of hope they bring him back, and elaborate on his background... Otherwise, if any rando can just get hold of a vortex manipulator and wreak havoc with history, the Doctor ought to have her hands full with cleaning up the timeline after them.

Other than that, I thought it was a strong episode.
  #149  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:28 PM
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That felt like an episode of Timeless. I like Timeless.
  #150  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:38 PM
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I didn't like the villain very much, but I kind of hope they bring him back, and elaborate on his background... Otherwise, if any rando can just get hold of a vortex manipulator and wreak havoc with history, the Doctor ought to have her hands full with cleaning up the timeline after them.
They've sort of established that vortex manipulators are difficult to come by. Jack Harkness had one because he was a Time Agent. River Song got it from Dorium Maldovar who got it ďfresh off the wrist of a handsome Time Agent." I don't think we've seen another one until now, at least not in the new series.
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