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Old 12-22-2018, 03:06 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is online now
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So...one more time...WHAT was the Fellowship's plan??

For the Ringbearer, a frigging Istari, the Rightful King of Gondor WITH A REFORGED NARSIL, the son of the steward of Gondor, an elf and a dwarf along with their three minions to surreptitiously sneak into Mordor and throw the ring into Mount Doom? Real inconspicuous bunch there. They couldn't even sneak through a dungeon without bringing the entire mountain and a frigging balrog down on them. What are they going to do in the open? This has "Party goes off the DM rails and throws together a shitty plan" written all over it.

And what would they do when they got to the Black Gate? Taunt them into making a mistake?

And finally in the book when it all falls apart...enhhhh...just let those two hobbits have a stab at it?

Gandalf: "You just let Sam and Frodo go alone? Did you tell them about our plan for circumventing the Black Gate?"

Aragorn: "...."

Last edited by Dale Sams; 12-22-2018 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:03 PM
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At the Council of Elrond it was made clear that the One Ring cannot be kept by Gondor, Elrond or even Tom Bombadil. (Sauron's forces are simply too strong.)

If thrown into the sea, the Ring will eventually be discovered.

It cannot be used for Good.

Therefore the only choice is to throw it into the fires of Mount Doom.
Just getting there will be perilous:

- the Ringwraiths will soon return
- the traitor Saruman is seeking the Ring for himself
- even Gollum is searching for the Ring (and has an affinity for it)

Elrond comments that even if he had a host of Elves, it would not be enough to get through. Speed and secrecy are the only hope.

Hence the Fellowship.

A couple of further comments:

- yes, Gandalf is an Istari (a Maiar) ... but his power is limited and is best suited to bringing hope to inspire others
- Aragorn's sword Narsil has not been reforged at this point
- The Steward of Gondor (Denethor) has been severely weakened by glimpsing Sauron through a Palantir and his son Boromir mistakenly believes the Ring should be used
- the party never intended to enter Moria (and risk meeting a Balrog) ... it was Saruman's weather magic on Caradhras that forced the Fellowship to take that route
- I expect Gandalf would consider avoiding the Black Gate (although there are obvious dangers in passing by Minas Morgul)
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:05 PM
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https://www.oglaf.com/ornithology/
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:29 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is online now
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Also:

Galadriel: "I have passed the test and now may be allowed to travel west" (I think thats what happened)

Frodo: "You know what would be great? We seemed to have lost our wizard. I think the test should be you replacing him instead of pissing off west."


i know in the movie Narsil hadn't been reforged, but I thought Aragorn in the book got it before setting out. Small matter that i know.
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:56 PM
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Also:

i know in the movie Narsil hadn't been reforged, but I thought Aragorn in the book got it before setting out. Small matter that i know.
Yup, from my handy copy; on leaving Rivendell 'Aragorn had Andúril* but no other weapon'.

I think the plan was basically to travel in the right direction, see what was happening and work out a plan later. Without knowing what was going on several hundred miles away, there'd be little point deciding which gate to use or anything detailed, especially as time was of the essence and there would be a lot of walking to do before any decisions needed to be made. Bear in mind there's months of book time between leaving and arriving at Mordor, and obviously the fewer people who knew detail the better.


*reforged a few pages earlier.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:28 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is online now
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I was just thinking, and I'm surprised I haven't seen any 'lore videos' on this. What if the Balrog misses and the entire Fellowship succeeds in destroying The Ring?

Gondor and Rohan have been curbstomped. Saruman still has sizeable army under his thrall (I assume)

Gandalf: "Mighty Gwaihir can you drop us off at Gondor?...errr...Rohan? Lothlorien is surrounded? You say you're getting tired and we can't just circle for days?"

I suppose if Gandalf has all the info available he could muster a force in the north and square off with Saruman.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:29 PM
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IIRC:

1. The "plan" was simply to somehow get the Ring to Mount Doom and throw it in, without attracting Sauron's notice.

2. Frodo volunteered to do this.

3. The rest of the Fellowship volunteered to go with him and help him however long and far this seemed like a good idea.
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Old 12-22-2018, 06:49 PM
Andy L Andy L is offline
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For the Ringbearer, a frigging Istari, the Rightful King of Gondor WITH A REFORGED NARSIL, the son of the steward of Gondor, an elf and a dwarf along with their three minions to surreptitiously sneak into Mordor and throw the ring into Mount Doom? Real inconspicuous bunch there. They couldn't even sneak through a dungeon without bringing the entire mountain and a frigging balrog down on them. What are they going to do in the open? This has "Party goes off the DM rails and throws together a shitty plan" written all over it.

And what would they do when they got to the Black Gate? Taunt them into making a mistake?

And finally in the book when it all falls apart...enhhhh...just let those two hobbits have a stab at it?

Gandalf: "You just let Sam and Frodo go alone? Did you tell them about our plan for circumventing the Black Gate?"

Aragorn: "...."
The plan evolved over time, as I recall. Even well after the Fellowship headed out, the group was divided about whether to go to Rohan or Gondor before heading to Mordor. When Boromir broke the Fellowship, Frodo decided all by himself to go alone (and Sam caught him on the way out). If Gandalf had not been lost, or any of a dozen other things had gone differently, it's possible a different approach would have been taken.
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Old 12-22-2018, 09:10 PM
simster simster is online now
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Yup, from my handy copy; on leaving Rivendell 'Aragorn had Andúril* but no other weapon'.

I think the plan was basically to travel in the right direction, see what was happening and work out a plan later. Without knowing what was going on several hundred miles away, there'd be little point deciding which gate to use or anything detailed, especially as time was of the essence and there would be a lot of walking to do before any decisions needed to be made. Bear in mind there's months of book time between leaving and arriving at Mordor, and obviously the fewer people who knew detail the better.


*reforged a few pages earlier.
So,they had, what, 12% of a plan?
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Old 12-22-2018, 09:36 PM
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I have always believed that Gandalf had "planned" nothing further than getting to Lothlórien. There, I believe he intended to converse with Galadriel and Celeborn on what would be the most expedient way to enter Mordor. For all we know, he was planning on meeting up with Gwaihir at that point and hitching a ride.

As Gandalf himself says in Gondor to Pippin: "There never was much hope. Just a fool's hope, as I've been told." In other words, staying put was not going to work, other options would not work, giving the Ring to someone else to use was even worse, so let's just see how close we can get, making it up as we go.
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Old 12-22-2018, 10:49 PM
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One of the main themes of the book and movie was 'Give Good a Chance and it will Somehow Find A Way to stomp Evil's arse'.

In the book, Gandalf noted how blind-luck-fortunate it was that Wormtongue managed to throw away the one means of communication between Saurman and Sauron, and how that Palantir was picked up by a hobbit who looked a lot like the last known holder of the Ring (as doubtless reported by the Nazgul), so Sauron was confused for just a little longer than he might have been. Aragorn was incidently kept from trying to use it before he found out what it really was, and was thereby able to put on a much better show when he did use it to talk trash with ol' Evil Eye.

It was just as well that Aragon was near Isengard at the time, pretty far away from the Ring at the time. (As a Ranger, he would have been a great help in getting Sam and Frodo to the main gate. Afterwards, impossible to say.) And it also worked out that Aragorn was later pretty much forced to use the Paths of the Dead, thereby further proving his own Right to Rule and picking up those kewl auxiliaries.

All chance, as anyone other than Manwe would say.
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Old 12-23-2018, 02:22 AM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is online now
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One of the main themes of the book and movie was 'Give Good a Chance and it will Somehow Find A Way to stomp Evil's arse'.

In the book, Gandalf noted how blind-luck-fortunate it was that Wormtongue managed to throw away the one means of communication between Saurman and Sauron, and how that Palantir was picked up by a hobbit who looked a lot like the last known holder of the Ring (as doubtless reported by the Nazgul), so Sauron was confused for just a little longer than he might have been. Aragorn was incidently kept from trying to use it before he found out what it really was, and was thereby able to put on a much better show when he did use it to talk trash with ol' Evil Eye.

It was just as well that Aragon was near Isengard at the time, pretty far away from the Ring at the time. (As a Ranger, he would have been a great help in getting Sam and Frodo to the main gate. Afterwards, impossible to say.) And it also worked out that Aragorn was later pretty much forced to use the Paths of the Dead, thereby further proving his own Right to Rule and picking up those kewl auxiliaries.

All chance, as anyone other than Manwe would say.
I just reread The Council of Elrond and part of The Ring Goes South.

Apparently Aragorn didn't intend to go all the way, but as far as Gondor where he would become king I guess and who knows? Maybe the Fellowship would stop there as well until things are set right. Then they can devise a plan which would still probably be, you guys go on while Aragorn pretends he has The Ring.

Also, just read Elrond saying "Do not look too far ahead."

Last edited by Dale Sams; 12-23-2018 at 02:24 AM.
  #13  
Old 12-23-2018, 03:47 AM
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Nitpick: Istari is plural, the singular is Istar.

More general points:

People tend to forget, or not be aware, that Tolkien was a lifelong devout Catholic and cared deeply about religion. He tried to express Catholic values in LOTR.
"The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. However that is very clumsily put, and sounds more self-important than I feel. For as a matter of fact, I have consciously planned very little; and should chiefly be grateful for having been brought up (since I was eight) in a Faith that has nourished me and taught me all the little that I know."
  – Tolkien
The Fellowship's plan was 'try to do what is right, however hopeless it seems'. Perhaps God will intervene, or perhaps He has some larger plan, even if you fail.

Also, we are looking back at Tolkien's work in the light of Dungeons & Dragons, fantasy gaming, vast numbers of fantasy books and movies. Tolkien may have inspired all this, but his works don't fit into that mold. People today tend to think in mechanistic, materialistic gaming terms like, 'a Ranger has x abilities and y weaknesses', 'a Wizard can cast such-and-such magic spell, which requires n magic points, an Elvish ring, and a magic Staff', etc.

This is NOT Tolkien's world.
"The realm of fairy-story is wide and deep and high and filled with many things: all manner of beasts and birds are found there; shoreless seas and stars uncounted; beauty that is an enchantment, and an ever-present peril; both joy and sorrow as sharp as swords. In that realm a man may, perhaps, count himself fortunate to have wandered, but its very richness and strangeness tie the tongue of a traveller who would report them. And while he is there it is dangerous for him to ask too many questions, lest the gates should be shut and the keys be lost."
  – Tolkien
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Old 12-23-2018, 04:16 AM
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Whether the setup seems likely to work or not, factually they did make it to their destination and save the world. I believe that there is a series of books that goes into explicit detail about how they were able to pull it off....

If you think that any parts of the story are made up or not realistic, I think that you would need to give your reasoning for believing that that particular event might not have happened or didn't happen in the way in which it is portrayed in the books, in order to really make your argument.
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Old 12-23-2018, 06:12 AM
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- yes, Gandalf is an Istari (a Maiar) ... but his power is limited and is best suited to bringing hope to inspire others
An unrelated question - did Elrond or Galadriel know who Gandalf really was?
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Old 12-23-2018, 08:49 AM
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An unrelated question - did Elrond or Galadriel know who Gandalf really was?
I'm certain they did.
After all, they were the three Elf Ringbearers! (Gandalf got his from Cirdan.)
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Old 12-23-2018, 09:24 AM
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And what would they do when they got to the Black Gate? Taunt them into making a mistake?
"Before you let us pass into Mordor, you must answer these questions three."

"Very well, if I must... hey, wait a minute!"
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Old 12-23-2018, 10:28 AM
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An unrelated question - did Elrond or Galadriel know who Gandalf really was?
Given Galadriel and Gandalf were both knocking around Valinor before all that unpleasantness with the Trees and Jewels and Kinslaying, I'd say quite probably they knew of each other. He was the wisest Maia, she the fairest Elf...

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Old 12-23-2018, 11:43 AM
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So,they had, what, 12% of a plan?
I am Groot. If that has anything to do with it.
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:07 PM
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So,they had, what, 12% of a plan?
So, what's the plan?"
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:01 PM
Malleus, Incus, Stapes! Malleus, Incus, Stapes! is offline
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Given Galadriel and Gandalf were both knocking around Valinor before all that unpleasantness with the Trees and Jewels and Kinslaying, I'd say quite probably they knew of each other. He was the wisest Maia, she the fairest Elf...
"But of Olorin [the Quenta Silmarillion] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts." So she probably didn't know him from before.
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Old 12-23-2018, 01:09 PM
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"But of Olorin [the Quenta Silmarillion] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts." So she probably didn't know him from before.
Yes. It's not clear at all if anyone really new Gandalf's true nature beyond supposition. From Unfinished Tales (emphasis mine)...

Quote:
"...they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came"

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Old 12-23-2018, 01:20 PM
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The Fellowship's plan was 'try to do what is right, however hopeless it seems'. Perhaps God will intervene, or perhaps He has some larger plan, even if you fail.
THIS.

Consider the discussion between Galadriel and Elrond:

Galadriel: ‘Through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat’.

Elrond: ‘I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats and many fruitless victories’.

They know, as does Gandalf, that the only hope is through the intervention of Iluvatar, and their only choice is to try.

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Old 12-23-2018, 02:56 PM
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Sauron may have been a bad egg (or was he?), but the Fellowship's real master plan was to jinx the development of industrialization, urbanization, and democracy.
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Old 12-23-2018, 03:19 PM
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Sauron may have been a bad egg (or was he?), but the Fellowship's real master plan was to jinx the development of industrialization, urbanization, and democracy.
In a world with magic, immortals, and lines of power that actually follow genealogical lineage, such objections to development actually make a bit of sense.
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Old 12-24-2018, 09:55 AM
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"But of Olorin [the Quenta Silmarillion] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts." So she probably didn't know him from before.
Cool, I stand corrected.
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Old 12-24-2018, 10:56 AM
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"But of Olorin [the Quenta Silmarillion] does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the prompting of wisdom that he put into their hearts." So she probably didn't know him from before.
So, with immortal, quasi-supernatural beings who can see the spirit world, he was sneaky and covert. But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct.

Interesting.
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Old 12-24-2018, 11:26 AM
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But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct.
About what - about being able to put on one hell of a fireworks show?



(With the help of an Elf whose name was something like 'Amy Surplus,' of course. )
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Old 12-24-2018, 12:24 PM
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For the Ringbearer, a frigging Istari, the Rightful King of Gondor WITH A REFORGED NARSIL, the son of the steward of Gondor, an elf and a dwarf along with their three minions to surreptitiously sneak into Mordor and throw the ring into Mount Doom? Real inconspicuous bunch there. They couldn't even sneak through a dungeon without bringing the entire mountain and a frigging balrog down on them. What are they going to do in the open? This has "Party goes off the DM rails and throws together a shitty plan" written all over it.

And what would they do when they got to the Black Gate? Taunt them into making a mistake?

And finally in the book when it all falls apart...enhhhh...just let those two hobbits have a stab at it?

Gandalf: "You just let Sam and Frodo go alone? Did you tell them about our plan for circumventing the Black Gate?"

Aragorn: "...."
The story was heavily influenced by Tolkiens WW1 experience, had Tolkien gone to Vietnam then the fellowship would have been aerially inserted by eagles. Instead they do it assbackwards and get extracted by Eagles.
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Old 12-24-2018, 01:00 PM
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The story was heavily influenced by Tolkiens WW1 experience, had Tolkien gone to Vietnam then the fellowship would have been aerially inserted by eagles. Instead they do it assbackwards and get extracted by Eagles.
Interesting. So the story would have been about the walk back and dealing with the huge mess they made by upsetting the power structure and all the petty chiefs and the ensuing chaos in the power vacuum.
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Old 12-24-2018, 01:00 PM
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So, with immortal, quasi-supernatural beings who can see the spirit world, he was sneaky and covert. But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct.

Interesting.
At home in Valinor, Olorin was basically demigod who could choose whether or not to wear a body like you'd choose whether to wear a coat. The Wizards, though, were severely restricted in power so as not to destroy a continent like the last time the Ainur actively fought against Bad Powers. Gandalf was issued one mortal-type physical body*, which he was stuck with the entire time. So sneaky and covert was off the table. Plus, whatever his job was back West, I'm pretty sure it wasn't "help the Incarnates take down Sauron". So a different approach was called for, anyway.

*On the subject of whether Galadriel, et al, knew the wizards were maiar- someone must have noticed that the old guys who stepped off the boat a thousand years ago were still around being old guys, as opposed to being dead guys. They had to have known something was weird here.
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Old 12-24-2018, 03:45 PM
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Cirdan, at least. must have known Gandalf was something - he gave him his ring, and after all, who else would be stepping off a boat from the West?

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Old 12-24-2018, 04:27 PM
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Cirdan, at least. must have known Gandalf was something - he gave him his ring, and after all, who else would be stepping off a boat from the West?
From Appendix B (The Tale of Years): "...Cirdan later surrendered his [ring] to Mithrandir [Gandalf]. For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.

"Take this ring, Master", he said, "for your labors will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
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Old 12-24-2018, 04:34 PM
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I recall a scene (post-destruction of the ring) where Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf are communicating telepathically. So I'd say there is no doubt that the loftiest elves knew exactly who Gandalf was.
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Old 12-24-2018, 04:35 PM
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Sauron may have been a bad egg (or was he?), but the Fellowship's real master plan was to jinx the development of industrialization, urbanization, and democracy.
And establish a whites-only hegemony. The next step would have been colonising and annexing the East and South and bringing civilisation to the swarthy inhabitants at sword-point. I never quite trusted the Rohirrim, and Saruman had a point about the straw-heads being a pack of brigands: they were always just a rabble-rouser and a barrel of ale away from mobbing up and smashing shop windows.
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Old 12-24-2018, 07:45 PM
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So, with immortal, quasi-supernatural beings who can see the spirit world, he was sneaky and covert. But with us mere mortals, he was honest and direct.



Interesting.


Not really. There's no indication Bilbo or Frodo or even Aragon knew that Gandalf was a Maiar. As far as the hobbits went, he was an old dude "wizard" whose wizarding was mainly fancy fireworks and hanging out with dwarves and elves.

Aragon had a better understanding of how powerful Gandalf was, since as a Ranger he knew about the defeat of the sorcerer in The Hobbit and Gandalf's long life, but I don't think there's any indication he knew Gandalf was a Maiar.
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Old 12-25-2018, 04:03 PM
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Not really. There's no indication Bilbo or Frodo or even Aragon knew that Gandalf was a Maiar. As far as the hobbits went, he was an old dude "wizard" whose wizarding was mainly fancy fireworks and hanging out with dwarves and elves.

Aragon had a better understanding of how powerful Gandalf was, since as a Ranger he knew about the defeat of the sorcerer in The Hobbit and Gandalf's long life, but I don't think there's any indication he knew Gandalf was a Maiar.
Agreed, there’s nothing in the books, but AragoRn was tutored by, and travelled extensively with, Gandalf. In all likelihood, he got to know something of Gandalf’s origins. He witnessed Gandalf using some pretty impressive powers, and Aragorn rubbed shoulders with old men and very old elves who knew Gandalf from back in the day.

Last edited by Capn Carl; 12-25-2018 at 04:05 PM.
  #38  
Old 12-25-2018, 05:00 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is online now
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Rather than give its own thread: The most unrealistic part of the great battles and dealing with Nazgul schreeching and wheeling about and massive boulders being hurled at you*? Are there no curses in Middle Earth?? I mean seriously that crew and all those extras had to have been explicitly told that as instinctive it is, you can't say "FUUUUCKKKKK!!" or "shit!" when immortal evil beings are sweeping you off the parapets.


*A failing in general of movie fights. Especially one on one hand to hand battles, is how quiet they are. Where's the 'Fuck you you fucking fuck!!"??
  #39  
Old 12-25-2018, 05:12 PM
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Rather than give its own thread: The most unrealistic part of the great battles and dealing with Nazgul schreeching and wheeling about and massive boulders being hurled at you*? Are there no curses in Middle Earth?? I mean seriously that crew and all those extras had to have been explicitly told that as instinctive it is, you can't say "FUUUUCKKKKK!!" or "shit!" when immortal evil beings are sweeping you off the parapets.
The practical answer, of course, is that Tolkien was a Christian author in a time when such language simply wasn't used in a formal setting, and that he was stylistically inspired by the Eddas and the Nordic/Anglo-Saxon lays. You don't see a lot of "fucks" or "cuntflaps" in Chaucer or Beowulf.

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  #40  
Old 12-25-2018, 05:30 PM
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The practical answer, of course, is that Tolkien was a Christian author in a time when such language simply wasn't used in a formal setting, and that he was stylistically inspired by the Eddas and the Nordic/Anglo-Saxon lays. You don't see a lot of "fucks" or "cuntflaps" in Chaucer or Beowulf.
Chaucer was very happy punning on the word cunt:

Quote:
As clerkes ben ful subtile and ful queynte,
And prively he caughte hire by the queynte,
And seyde, “Ywis, but if ich have my wille,
For deerne love of thee, lemman, I spille.”
Skeptical Humanities, "Chaucer's Cunt"

So, famously, was Shakespeare. Or did you think I meant country matters?
  #41  
Old 12-25-2018, 05:47 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is online now
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The practical answer, of course, is that Tolkien was a Christian author in a time when such language simply wasn't used in a formal setting, and that he was stylistically inspired by the Eddas and the Nordic/Anglo-Saxon lays. You don't see a lot of "fucks" or "cuntflaps" in Chaucer or Beowulf.
Yeah but he fought in war! Hand to hand in a trench there's gonna be a lot of fuck youuuuuu

edit: Ok now we're on the giant elephants....where are the "Fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck"?? I mean im saying it and I'm just watching.

Joking aside, Sam/Sean gets it as right as you can in a PG-13 movie in his battle with Shelob. The smack talk, all the grunts and yelps in the right spots. Makes it one of the best spots in a great movie.


I love Infinity War but Marvel needs to watch these battles, to see how much better a fight against faceless mooks can be improved just making a level of Lieutenants between your mooks and Captains. Admittedly its hard to without being cheesy, I like Albino Head orc with the fucked up hand, but its a fine line between effective and cheesy. Give us some hero Lieutenants and you can kill them off since we know most of the heroes arn't going to fall. (Snappening aside)

Last edited by Dale Sams; 12-25-2018 at 05:51 PM.
  #42  
Old 12-25-2018, 05:49 PM
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Rather than give its own thread: The most unrealistic part of the great battles and dealing with Nazgul schreeching and wheeling about and massive boulders being hurled at you*? Are there no curses in Middle Earth?? I mean seriously that crew and all those extras had to have been explicitly told that as instinctive it is, you can't say "FUUUUCKKKKK!!" or "shit!" when immortal evil beings are sweeping you off the parapets.
It's certainly "instinctive" if you're in the habit of using such language, or if you spend a lot of time around people who do (in person or on screen). But cursing, and verbal expression generally, is to at least some extent learned behavior, so I can at least imagine societies or worlds in which it wasn't the custom to yell dirty words. (Like Vulcan, maybe. "Why would you say the word for excrement during a battle? That is so illogical. What information are you conveying?")

So now I'm curious, whether there are societies without cursing; and whether there is cursing in Middle Earth, and if so, what form it takes and what are the customs and mores surrounding it.
  #43  
Old 12-25-2018, 06:03 PM
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It's certainly "instinctive" if you're in the habit of using such language, or if you spend a lot of time around people who do (in person or on screen). But cursing, and verbal expression generally, is to at least some extent learned behavior, so I can at least imagine societies or worlds in which it wasn't the custom to yell dirty words. (Like Vulcan, maybe. "Why would you say the word for excrement during a battle? That is so illogical. What information are you conveying?")

So now I'm curious, whether there are societies without cursing; and whether there is cursing in Middle Earth, and if so, what form it takes and what are the customs and mores surrounding it.
There's a passage where the narrator is very sniffy about the below-decks language that a patrol of Orcs uses:

Quote:
But Orcs and Trolls spoke as they would, without love of words or things; and their language was actually more degraded and filthy than I have shown it. I do not suppose that any will wish for a closer rendering, though models are easy to find. Much the same sort of talk can still be heard among the orc-minded; dreary and repetitive with hatred and contempt, too long removed from good to retain even verbal vigour, save in the ears of those to whom only the squalid sounds strong.
Harrumph, I say!
  #44  
Old 12-25-2018, 06:28 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is online now
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There's a passage where the narrator is very sniffy about the below-decks language that a patrol of Orcs uses:


Spoken like a true Englishman!
  #45  
Old 12-25-2018, 07:19 PM
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Pen - that response is clear, concise and on point. I tip my cap, Sir.
  #46  
Old 12-25-2018, 08:06 PM
DSYoungEsq DSYoungEsq is offline
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Getting back to Gandalf:

The learned certainly knew, or at least suspected what he was.

He was not a man; he lived too long.

He was not an elf; so far as I know, elves don't look old, since they don't grow old.

He was neither ent nor dwarf, the only two other species of intelligent non-angelic humanoid life on the planet.

We can easily discount that he was orc or troll.

Hence, he had to be some form of ainu. I suppose he could have been one of the Valar, but since there are a limited number of them, all well-known, it's doubtful he could have been one of them.

By process of elimination, the wizards were lesser powers (maiar).

Less learned peoples probably didn't think much about it, simply categorizing them as "strange, powerful, old, don't get involved with" types.
  #47  
Old 12-26-2018, 03:00 AM
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But that assumes there is a limited set of beings.

Tom Bombadil, as usual, throws a spanner in the works. Does that process of elimination mean Tom is a Maiar as well?

And if not, then Tom is an example of something not human, dwarf, elf or Maiar.

If there is one individual that does not fit those categories, then that means Tom is a different category.

If Tom is a different category, why couldn't Gandalf also be in that different category? He seems to be the one at the Council who is most familiar with Tom. Maybe they are kindred of some sort?
  #48  
Old 12-26-2018, 03:53 AM
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Another nitpick: Maia is singular, Maiar is plural.

Perhaps over the course of a couple of thousand years it might have occurred to one of the lords of the Eldar to ask one of the Wizards who they were and where they came from?

The lords of the Eldar were sufficiently convinced of nature of the Wizards to join with them in the White Council, and Cirdan to hand over his ring his Gandalf - quite a major act of trust.

Northern Piper makes a good point about range of beings not being limited. Tom Bombadil deserves more attention than he generally gets.
  #49  
Old 12-26-2018, 03:55 AM
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Pen - that response is clear, concise and on point. I tip my cap, Sir.
Thank you
  #50  
Old 12-26-2018, 07:19 AM
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The Fellowship of the Underpants:
Travel to Morder with the Ring
???
Freedom!
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Sauron may have been a bad egg (or was he?), but the Fellowship's real master plan was to jinx the development of industrialization, urbanization, and democracy.
Industrialization for sure but Gondor was pretty well urbanized urbanised already and I am dubious about Sauron's dedication to democracy.
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