Straight Dope Message Board

[Czarcasm]

So I'm on a crowded bus this morning listening to my McCartney and Wings collection, and the guy opposite me asks me what I'm listening to so I tell him.
His response? "I tried listening to the Beatles, but it was too much like jungle music to me". he didn't lower his voice or look around to see if there was anyone around that might find his remark insensitive-he just loudly offered up his racist comment is if it were perfectly acceptable for public consumption.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Never mind racist— what the hell is he even talking about?

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Never mind racist— what the hell is he even talking about?

Exactly.

And how did the OP hear this non-sequitur of a question? If I'm on a bus/plane/etc I'm wearing earbuds in part so that people do not attempt to engage in small talk.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by kayaker

Exactly.

And how did the OP hear this non-sequitur of a question? If I'm on a bus/plane/etc I'm wearing earbuds in part so that people do not attempt to engage in small talk.

He motioned over to me and pointed at the earbuds I was wearing.

[QuickSilver]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

"I tried listening to the Beatles, but it was too much like jungle music to me".

Fucking Neil Sedaka fans. One in every crowd.

[pool]

I heard a lot of overt racist comments in the Army directed at blacks, whites, hispanics but most of it was good-natured ribbing. I live in the South I hear racist shit from strangers all the time.

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

He motioned over to me and pointed at the earbuds I was wearing.

So, he chose to ignore the fact that you were otherwise occupied and forced you to engage in small talk. You knew he was a dick before he opened his mouth.

[shunpiker]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Never mind racist— what the hell is he even talking about?

I wouldn’t use the term jungle music to refer to the Beatles. Not sure I’d use those 2 in the same sentence. I can get close, though. The beetles made sweet music in the jungle. But (rhetorically) do beetles even make music?

And, using only the context of the OP, I’d not be so quick to call it racist. Are there other clues that gave you the vibe? What exactly IS jungle music (again rhetorically)?

Originally Posted by WikiP

The terms "jungle" and "drum and bass" are often used interchangeably by the layman but this should not be the case. Jungle originated out of oldschool and in the late 1990s the term "drum and bass" was used in association with music that did not have the same emphasis on breakbeats and complex production.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by kayaker

So, he chose to ignore the fact that you were otherwise occupied and forced you to engage in small talk. You knew he was a dick before he opened his mouth.

Until he spoke, he might also have been someone who was trying to tell me about an important announcement from the bus driver. Sometimes it pays to pull the buds out of your ears and listen to someone else, and sometimes it doesn't.

[manson1972]

I live in Southern Maryland where 90% of white people are racists and worse, they all assume if you are white that you are racist too. Right before the 2008 election, a friend of mine and I were at Hooter's having some beers. We had been previously exposed to the kind of casual yet not-so-hidden racism of the surrounding area, so we asked the white waitress who she was going to vote for, thinking it would be funny to hear her say "Not Obama" in a non-racist way. But nope, she just came right out with "Well, I would never vote for a nigger, so not Obama"

I still feel bad for not notifying the manager then, but we were in such shock that we just paid and left.

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

Sometimes it pays to pull the buds out of your ears and listen to someone else, and sometimes it doesn't.

Protip:
Unless you smell smoke, it's generally better to ignore the passenger's charades.
/Protip

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by manson1972

I still feel bad for not notifying the manager then, but we were in such shock that we just paid and left.

You were in a Hooter's in Southern Maryland. She might have gotten a promotion.

[Machine Elf]

Originally Posted by shunpiker

What exactly IS jungle music (again rhetorically)?

Here's some.

[Czarcasm]

"Jungle music" is a slur on "Black music". I've heard it all my life, and never realized that others may not have heard the term.

[shunpiker]

Originally Posted by Machine Elf

Here's some.

That specific example did float through my mind

[panache45]

This reminds me of something I've noticed for a long time:

A racist white person assumes all white people are racists.
A sexist man assumes all men are racists.
An antisemitic gentile assumes all gentiles are antisemitic.
A homophobic straight person assumes all straight people are homophobic.
Etc.

I think it gives them an excuse for being what they are, in the sense of "Of course I'm a racist; it's part of being white" or "Of course I'm homophobic; it's part of being straight." I think it behooves those of us who don't fit this pattern to speak up and show them that hatred is not automatic, no matter what you are.

[shunpiker]

Oh, I know what you meant by the term. However, from only the clues presented in the OP, it’s a bit of a stretch to call dude's comment racist. Playing devil’s advocate, I could paint this picture different ways before I pull out the racist crayon.

In fact, using this part of the OP, “…he didn't lower his voice or look around to see if there was anyone around that might find his remark insensitive.”, might lead me to believe that he didn’t intend to use it racistically.

[Living Well Is Best Revenge]

I live in the South. I hear or see casual racism nearly every day.
Yesterday's example was a conversation with a guy about why he never goes "downtown" anymore. It's because there are too many large groups of black people and it's not safe coming out of parking garages late at night.

[manson1972]

Originally Posted by kayaker

You were in a Hooter's in Southern Maryland. She might have gotten a promotion.

The manager was black, so I doubt it.

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

"Jungle music" is a slur on "Black music". I've heard it all my life, and never realized that others may not have heard the term.

I get it, but... the Beatles? The Stones, maybe, but the Beatles? That's too stupid to be offensive.


(Seriously: does anyone under 80 still think of rock as somehow being "black" music? It just seems so weird to me.)

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by shunpiker

Oh, I know what you meant by the term. However, from only the clues presented in the OP, it’s a bit of a stretch to call dude's comment racist. Playing devil’s advocate, I could paint this picture different ways before I pull out the racist crayon.

In fact, using this part of the OP, “…he didn't lower his voice or look around to see if there was anyone around that might find his remark insensitive.”, might lead me to believe that he didn’t intend to use it racistically.

His intent is immaterial, it is racist to implicitly compare black to jungle. Unless the OP happened to bump into an ethnomusicologist, which if they did that'd be a great detail to add.

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

"Jungle music" is a slur on "Black music".

Try putting the two words into your favourite search engine and prepare to be pleasantly surprised.

[Orr, G.]

Originally Posted by Quartz

Try putting the two words into your favourite search engine and prepare to be pleasantly surprised.

Yeah... but someone who thinks of Jungle Music when discussing the Beatles isn't going to be hip enough to know about that off the top of their head.

I'm guessing this person was either an octogenarian or a RL troll.

I'm reminded of someone I met, a woman in her twenties, and had the misfortune of being a captive audience for, for nearly an hour. She kept referring to "colored people". I did mention the current term is "person of color", in case that's what she meant. It wasn't.

She didn't care to get the hint. I don't know if she was looking for a fight, or what she expected. Usually people who assume fellow white people are racist clam up after being corrected (IRL, not online, IME). Eventually I just had to laugh, and I asked her if she's a time traveller from the 50's, because that's not even a modern slur.

[FairyChatMom]

Originally Posted by manson1972

I live in Southern Maryland where 90% of white people are racists and worse, they all assume if you are white that you are racist too.

Minor hijack - I'm in Southern MD - St. Mary's county - and I've been surprised at the number of interracial couples I encounter. When we moved here 13 years ago, I was bracing for racism, but while it does exist, it's not as pervasive as I'd expected. I've encountered more than my share of assholes, but there are still enough decent folks to keep me from feeling humanity is doomed.

[hogarth]

One of my co-workers is an African immigrant. On Friday, he was explaining how the Canadian government should unilaterally remove any ability for First Nations to self-govern because having two separate legal systems is like apartheid in South Africa. That was a head-scratcher for me.

Also recently, a Chinese woman I know was explaining that Sunnybrook Hospital is a high-quality healthcare centre because they even have white nurses working there.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

"Jungle music" is a slur on "Black music". I've heard it all my life, and never realized that others may not have heard the term.

Why is one of those a slur and the other not, if both describe the same music by associating it with a racially distinguishable audience? If Reggae is called "island music" is it a racial slur to refer to the fact that the music originated with people who come from islands?

Did African Americans not come originally from a place where the jungle predominates as a bioform, and bring their cultural musical styling with them from said provenance? And voluntarily choose to associate themselves with that musical genre through the present era?

[raventhief]

Originally Posted by shunpiker

I wouldn’t use the term jungle music to refer to the Beatles. Not sure I’d use those 2 in the same sentence. I can get close, though. The beetles made sweet music in the jungle. But (rhetorically) do beetles even make music?

And, using only the context of the OP, I’d not be so quick to call it racist. Are there other clues that gave you the vibe? What exactly IS jungle music (again rhetorically)?

Jungle is what they played in the front room of Buzz in the 90s. I couldn't dance to it. I preferred trance or house.

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Why is one of those a slur and the other not, if both describe the same music by associating it with a racially distinguishable audience? If Reggae is called "island music" is it a racial slur to refer to the fact that the music originated with people who come from islands?

Did African Americans not come originally from a place where the jungle predominates as a bioform, and bring their cultural musical styling with them from said provenance? And voluntarily choose to associate themselves with that musical genre through the present era?

You're wrong and a stroll through Wiki could teach you about Savannah v jungle v desert on the African landmass and proportions thereof, and even if you weren't, 'But it's TRUE!' doesn't keep something from being racist.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

"Jungle music" is a slur on "Black music". I've heard it all my life, and never realized that others may not have heard the term.

Surprises me that some people haven't heard the term. It was widely used in times past when idiots like the one you met on the bus complained about rock music corrupting our youth. Maybe it's a regionalism, but I didn't think so.

[monstro]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Did African Americans not come originally from a place where the jungle predominates as a bioform, and bring their cultural musical styling with them from said provenance? And voluntarily choose to associate themselves with that musical genre through the present era?

As an African American, I can tell you that I've never in my life set foot in a "jungle".

Jazz did not originate in a jungle.
Neither did gospel, blues, soul, rock and roll, or hip hop.

Not unless we're talking about a jungle made out of concrete.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Why is one of those a slur and the other not, if both describe the same music by associating it with a racially distinguishable audience? If Reggae is called "island music" is it a racial slur to refer to the fact that the music originated with people who come from islands?

Did African Americans not come originally from a place where the jungle predominates as a bioform, and bring their cultural musical styling with them from said provenance? And voluntarily choose to associate themselves with that musical genre through the present era?

WTF?

[igor frankensteen]

I've run across a fair number of people like that bus guy. They were shocking at first, because I could tell there was something unreal about them, which is always a bit frightening, and it took me a while to figure out what they are DOING when they openly and loudly proclaim their whatever-ism.

What I came to recognize, is that these are a certain type of mentally ill people. They are not wildly nuts, just a specific kind of low-grade crazy, that is intriguingly identifiable, and common to every exemplar I come across.

They are always very firm and calm in expressing their insanity;

they very obviously know that almost everyone around them disagrees with their proclamations;

they are invariably PLEASED if you react negatively in response, especially if you appear to move away from them slightly;

they always have a very complete patter all worked out, which they have memorized, including multiple, inevitably circular "arguments" which they will throw at you to explain themselves, should anyone ask;

they all obviously feel that their vile opinions make them inherently superior to everyone else, which is why they are always CALM as they express them;

they purposely selected very clear known trigger words (such as jungle music) to use, in order again, to generate the reaction from listeners which reinforces their sense of accomplishment;

and like this bus guy, they very characteristically and purposely interrupt random strangers on a regular basis, in order to perform their ritual of proclaiming offense. This guy no doubt chose to use the OP, BECAUSE he was listening on earbuds.

[ThisSpaceForRent]

If you listen to jungle music you may catch, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNbM781v7M0 ....as Martha says, "this is a good thing"

[shunpiker]

Originally Posted by Nawth Chucka

His intent is immaterial, it is racist to implicitly compare black to jungle. Unless the OP happened to bump into an ethnomusicologist, which if they did that'd be a great detail to add.

(boldin' mine)

Uh, who did that? Czarcasm and some other posters here have, but the gentleman on the bus, according to the info presented in the OP, did not.

I'm not trying to defend the guy on the bus. I'm just cautioning against drawing conclusions from (mostly) non-existant data.

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by shunpiker

(boldin' mine)

Uh, who did that? Czarcasm and some other posters here have, but the gentleman on the bus, according to the info presented in the OP, did not.

I'm not trying to defend the guy on the bus. I'm just cautioning against drawing conclusions from (mostly) non-existant data.

Besides the OP themselves seeing its racism and my believing their experience as it's told to me, I also see that comparison in the bus guy's comment, yes. You don't, ok; it takes all kinds to make the world go 'round.
But when someone shows me who they are, it's my job to see. The majority of people I've given the benefit of the doubt turned out to be exactly as I thought, so you can hand off my 'caution' to someone else b/c I won't be needing it.
May I suggest you look up microaggression and see if it can be applied to your response(s)?

[E-DUB]

Then there's this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h9PbMucPXU

[Nawth Chucka]

Originally Posted by E-DUB

Then there's this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h9PbMucPXU

Those of you who don't want to bother, it's a group of black men singing a song w/ the word Jungle in the title.
As to the point of their posting it, E-DUB will have to speak for themselves.

[actualliberalnotoneofthose]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

"Jungle music" is a slur on "Black music". I've heard it all my life, and never realized that others may not have heard the term.

I remember this being used in one of the Rocky movies (maybe 3) to show the casual racism of Paulie. I was really young but immediately understood what was meant from the context. He kept ranting about how Rock couldn't "train like a colored fighter" and complaining about the "jungle music" coming from the boombox.

Had I not watched the Rocky movies, I might not have heard it. However, I can't imagine being alive today without seeing the Rocky movies.

[Johanna]

Originally Posted by Alessan

I get it, but... the Beatles? The Stones, maybe, but the Beatles? That's too stupid to be offensive.


(Seriously: does anyone under 80 still think of rock as somehow being "black" music? It just seems so weird to me.)

That is extremely retrograde, an attitude that was obsolete well before the majority of Dopers were even born. But then there are still assholes arguing that women oughtn't have the vote.

This may be a relevant point: Many years ago, I came across a product of the 1960s Black Power movement, the "Black Intelligence Test to Counter Honkeyism (B.I.T.C.H.)" — which was written to demonstrate how IQ tests are culturally/racially biased in their assumptions and questions. All the questions were ones you'd presumably get wrong if you weren't steeped in African-American culture.

So one of the questions was: "Do the Beatles have SOUL?" (uppercase in original)







In case you're wondering about the correct answer, it was "No."

[Johanna]

Originally Posted by E-DUB

Then there's this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h9PbMucPXU

First tune on the subject I would have expected is this one.
Time's up!

[Bricker]

Maybe he should have tried the White Album.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by Johanna

That is extremely retrograde, an attitude that was obsolete well before the majority of Dopers were even born. But then there are still assholes arguing that women oughtn't have the vote.

This may be a relevant point: Many years ago, I came across a product of the 1960s Black Power movement, the "Black Intelligence Test to Counter Honkeyism (B.I.T.C.H.)" — which was written to demonstrate how IQ tests are culturally/racially biased in their assumptions and questions. All the questions were ones you'd presumably get wrong if you weren't steeped in African-American culture.

So one of the questions was: "Do the Beatles have SOUL?" (uppercase in original)

Wow -- I remember you sharing this anecdote the first year I joined the SD.

Time flies.

But it was actually the Black Intelligence Test of Cultural Homogeneity.

[Marci Al]

Hohum. First world jibes at anything third world can be much worst. And a lot of those given above aren't racist at all, though they might mention a certain race.

[Spoons]

No message.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by panache45

This reminds me of something I've noticed for a long time:

A racist white person assumes all white people are racists.
A sexist man assumes all men are racists.
An antisemitic gentile assumes all gentiles are antisemitic.
A homophobic straight person assumes all straight people are homophobic.
Etc.

I think it gives them an excuse for being what they are, in the sense of "Of course I'm a racist; it's part of being white" or "Of course I'm homophobic; it's part of being straight." I think it behooves those of us who don't fit this pattern to speak up and show them that hatred is not automatic, no matter what you are.

Cree el ladrón que todos son de su condición; a thief believes everybody is also one. Used as advice that if someone's default mindset is to think ill of others... he's giving you warning. And of course, for those more obvious ones you mention.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by Johanna

That is extremely retrograde, an attitude that was obsolete well before the majority of Dopers were even born. But then there are still assholes arguing that women oughtn't have the vote.

There were four walking mummies in the supermarket yesterday who kept bumping each other up on the subject that there is no need to have laws against rape and sexual assault, because according to them "someone rapes your little girl, you just beat the crap out of him". They didn't even notice the Silence of Doom that formed around them.

[Ludovic]

On time at a card table, someone broke one of the informal rules of the table and the guy next to him got mad and said "you just cost me $200, why don't you go back to your country?" to the Latino guy. I was dumbfounded and didn't say anything because I thought they might have known each other.

Another reason I didn't say anything: this was in Miami. The remark, in context, was hilarious.

[Ludovic]

I'll balance that with an incident where it was right to not say anything: another time, a player was ranting about Obama, and at some point in his rant, pointed at the only black guy at the table and said "YOUR guy did that!" I was taken aback at this again but said nothing, only to see more clearly later on that the black guy was wearing an Obama cap

[MareIt]

I went from Northern VA to Austin TX for a job interview with EA (Electronic Arts). As part of the terms of agreeing to the interview, I asked that they fly me in early so that I could check out Austin and be sure I wanted to move there. This included looking at barns where I could keep my horse.

The first barn I went to, when I left and told them I was heading to barn B, said "that place always looks great because they have lots of Mexicans". The third barn I went to, the owner told me that I would want to live on the west side of Austin because "All of the Blacks and Mexicans live on the east side"

My main thoughts included: "WTF. I am a complete stranger!" and "At least in Texas most of the Hispanic folks are actually Mexican".


Those two conversations were definitely part of the reason I turned down the job. I went into the interview after 2 days of wandering around non-tourist Austin and thought that "I had better LOVE the job if I am going to relocate here" and while I thought the job sounded pretty cool, it wasn't cool enough to pick up my entire life and move to Texas.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Did African Americans not come originally from a place where the jungle predominates as a bioform, and bring their cultural musical styling with them from said provenance? And voluntarily choose to associate themselves with that musical genre through the present era?

You tell us, Livingstone.