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  #51  
Old 01-17-2019, 05:34 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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So apparently she meant that "you are not living well" when she said you are not alive, because you are living in the world of the thoughts that come through your mind and not in the present. My guess is that we live our lives according to what we believe things and people to be (based on our senses) and not as they really are (empty, whatever that it). My question would be "how is that living well". What is wrong with thoughts? I know that sometimes we can get bogged down in the past and past experience and feelings can affect the present. But that's not always a bad thing and the reason we make decisions is based on the values we acquire through life. Throwing all that away doesn't seem practical or desirable. Because without any values we wouldn't do anything.

Seems like a "war" on subjectivity. Things mean differently to different people, how is that not reality? What part of that is false? That it's not inherent? So what? Who says the "world of thoughts" is less real than their claimed "actual one".
I'm pretty confident that there's an actual objective reality, but you don't see it by ignoring your senses. And also in objective reality people aren't empty - they have spleens and stuff in there.

You should try not to get bogged down in memories and regrets, but embracing woo and delusion isn't the right way to avoid that, and (somehow) flushing your mind of all thoughts, feelings, and memories definitely isn't the way to do that.

Flushing your mind of memories of woo might not be a bad thing, though.
  #52  
Old 01-18-2019, 12:53 AM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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It's just the whole "living a lie" line they throw around cuts deep.
  #53  
Old 01-18-2019, 07:39 AM
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If she is offering to sell you these secrets or insights then she is not your friend, she is a huckster looking to fleece you with no more investment on her part than her voice.
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  #54  
Old 01-18-2019, 11:43 AM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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If she is offering to sell you these secrets or insights then she is not your friend, she is a huckster looking to fleece you with no more investment on her part than her voice.
Yeah. I really want to give people the benefit of the doubt because she seemed so nice. But the conversation came back to the meditation they do THERE and that if I had more questions I needed an appointment.

I donít want to believe such people are out for a buck but.........

But like I said when someone says ďyou are not alive (or not living well)Ē or that you are living a lie, those cut hard. They make me think they have some great truth(because who really wants to live a lie?) especially when itís phrased like the first statement.
  #55  
Old 01-18-2019, 12:57 PM
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But like I said when someone says ďyou are not alive (or not living well)Ē or that you are living a lie, those cut hard. They make me think they have some great truth(because who really wants to live a lie?) especially when itís phrased like the first statement.
This thread, and the dozen other similar threads you've started here, are pretty solid evidence that you are not living well, and that you repeatedly tell yourself lies in order to function. You have no sense of self worth, you look for validation from random strangers, you ignore evidence that would help you and twist yourself into knots of illogical fantasy to avoid taking care of your self, all because you are looking for an easy way to rationalize your dissatisfaction with life.

Now, how does that make you feel? Do I have some great truth or am I just spouting pseudo-scientific pablum?
  #56  
Old 01-18-2019, 01:40 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Harsh, Telemark.

Machinaforce, when these people say you're living a lie, they're wrong. Simply, wrong. I see two plausible reasons they could be saying these things:

1) They're negging you so that they can sell you something.

2) They're starry-eyed believers who really mean well (who came to hold these beliefs because somebody negged them and sold them on it). Unfortunately for them, though, they're living a lie.


Try not to let the hucksters and woos shake you. You may not be living well, but as long as you have your feet on the ground and are recognizing the reality of the objective reality around you, you're not living a lie.

(Note: I realize that as random weirdo on the internet you have no reason to trust what I say, but I do mean well.)
  #57  
Old 01-18-2019, 02:32 PM
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Harsh, Telemark.
Not intended to be. Just trying to use what the OP says "cuts hard" and see if he recognizes it in another form. Perhaps it can open his eyes to the ridiculous lack of critical approach he takes to woo and nonsense elsewhere.
  #58  
Old 01-19-2019, 01:25 AM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Not intended to be. Just trying to use what the OP says "cuts hard" and see if he recognizes it in another form. Perhaps it can open his eyes to the ridiculous lack of critical approach he takes to woo and nonsense elsewhere.
Itís just that I have this need to ďfigure outĒ what they are trying to say and then devise a counter argument to neutralize it (mostly to maintain my worldview). But since philosophy isnít my strong suit at all I struggle hard and because I canít come up with a response I find myself thinking they are right. Itís followed by working backwards from their point to see how they were right. Judging from the ďpoetryĒ they tend to write about their ďawakeningĒ Iím led to believe they are right on some level.
  #59  
Old 01-19-2019, 01:27 AM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Harsh, Telemark.

Machinaforce, when these people say you're living a lie, they're wrong. Simply, wrong. I see two plausible reasons they could be saying these things:

1) They're negging you so that they can sell you something.

2) They're starry-eyed believers who really mean well (who came to hold these beliefs because somebody negged them and sold them on it). Unfortunately for them, though, they're living a lie.


Try not to let the hucksters and woos shake you. You may not be living well, but as long as you have your feet on the ground and are recognizing the reality of the objective reality around you, you're not living a lie.

(Note: I realize that as random weirdo on the internet you have no reason to trust what I say, but I do mean well.)
The trouble lies in the objective part since most of these people I listen to claim to know it. Hence the bit about the thoughts and living in your own mind and what your senses pick up (whatever that means).
  #60  
Old 01-19-2019, 01:29 AM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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This thread, and the dozen other similar threads you've started here, are pretty solid evidence that you are not living well, and that you repeatedly tell yourself lies in order to function. You have no sense of self worth, you look for validation from random strangers, you ignore evidence that would help you and twist yourself into knots of illogical fantasy to avoid taking care of your self, all because you are looking for an easy way to rationalize your dissatisfaction with life.

Now, how does that make you feel? Do I have some great truth or am I just spouting pseudo-scientific pablum?
Iím not trying to rationalize my dissatisfaction, itís rather the fact that I have all these questions from these people poking holes in my worldview and I donít know how to respond or handle them that causes it. I try to get by through ignoring them but I canít help but feel like Iím living a lie by ignoring their words and not seeing the truth.
  #61  
Old 01-19-2019, 04:07 AM
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Iím not trying to rationalize my dissatisfaction, itís rather the fact that I have all these questions from these people poking holes in my worldview and I donít know how to respond or handle them that causes it. I try to get by through ignoring them but I canít help but feel like Iím living a lie by ignoring their words and not seeing the truth.
Why do you seek out these videos/people in the first place?

Suppose you were living off the grid somewhere miles from the nearest self-appointed mystic or guru. Would you still feel like you're living a lie? Without any contact with these people, would you be able to express your own truth? Would you be able to stop obsessing about all this?
  #62  
Old 01-20-2019, 07:36 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Why do you seek out these videos/people in the first place?

Suppose you were living off the grid somewhere miles from the nearest self-appointed mystic or guru. Would you still feel like you're living a lie? Without any contact with these people, would you be able to express your own truth? Would you be able to stop obsessing about all this?
Probably only if I never read their stuff in the first place. But with these things in my head it doesnít matter where I go.
  #63  
Old 01-21-2019, 07:04 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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I guess I’m just afraid of stuff like “you are the universe” or “your body is an illusion” being true because they threaten everything my view is built on. The first part would disconnect me from people I care about and I don’t even know where to begin on the second.

It’s fear, I’m afraid to lose things and afraid of those things being true.
  #64  
Old 01-21-2019, 07:37 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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I guess Iím just afraid of stuff like ďyou are the universeĒ or ďyour body is an illusionĒ being true because they threaten everything my view is built on. The first part would disconnect me from people I care about and I donít even know where to begin on the second.

Itís fear, Iím afraid to lose things and afraid of those things being true.
The fact that these silly people are imagining fantasies doesn't invalidate the reality. You look to your left - you see a tree. You take some peyote or whatever and suddenly you feel like you're the entire universe - this could make you feel like the tree is part of you, or you're part of the tree, or you're too busy watching the galaxies inside your navel to notice the tree --I don't know, I haven't taken peyote. But after it all, or even during it all, if you swing your arm to the left, your arm will hit that tree.

The reality you live in, that you perceive with your eyes, that your loved ones exist in - that reality has, well, reality. Is it the only way to perceive or describe that reality? Nope! You can also view every person as a collection of organs attached to a brain, and think about their organs as separate things. You can recognize that every person, place, or tree is made out of atoms and molecules, hooked together by chemicals and atomic forces. You can recognize that on the scale of the particles within the atoms there's actually massive spans of space between everything - the universe is basically a sparse collection of particles in a sea of nothing, held together by a lattice of weird and powerful forces.

These are all different ways of perceiving and describing reality, but does the fact everyone's made of organs, atoms, and subatomic particles mean they can't get together, hang out, and play video games? Nope! The existence of other ways to perceive and describe reality doesn't invalidate the very real reality in which we operate in our daily lives.

If there are other, woo-like ways to describe/perceive reality -we're all the universe, it's all illusions, there are ghosts and gods around, there are actually tiny elves controlling our muppet-arms with puppeteer rods- even if any of these ways of describing reality are accurate, it won't change anything. The normal common way of perceiving reality will remain valid.

Even if they say otherwise while trying to get you to buy something.
  #65  
Old 01-22-2019, 06:57 PM
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I didn’t look at it that way. I just though that there is one way and anything else is wrong.

The way they put it, the subjective way we experience reality (including likes and dislikes) is not real or it is false. That the true reality is empty of our tastes and judgments about it. So I me it seems like my daily life is a lie. I don’t know how other people aren’t bothered by such a thing, I would love to learn how.

But I guess it comes down to me being so obsessed with being right that being wrong is unacceptable especially in the case with reality.

I mean if there is an objective truth then should it not be lived by rather than our subjective realities?
  #66  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:07 PM
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The logic behind subjectivity being that the mind “made it up” and therefor it isn’t the truth or real.
  #67  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:37 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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I didnít look at it that way. I just though that there is one way and anything else is wrong.

The way they put it, the subjective way we experience reality (including likes and dislikes) is not real or it is false. That the true reality is empty of our tastes and judgments about it. So I me it seems like my daily life is a lie. I donít know how other people arenít bothered by such a thing, I would love to learn how.
Well, the way I avoid being bothered by it is because I'm of the opinion that these people are full of shit. I dismiss them out of hand. Suffice to say this approach is quick and easy and leaves a lot of time to hang out with people and play video games and such.

But, you may reasonably ask, how am I able to dismiss them so easily? How can I be certain they're wrong?

Well, for a starter, I can say with an extremely high degree of confidence that observable reality is based on objective truth. It's simply too consistent and coherent to be a figment of my imagination.

Does this mean that my human perception of the objective truth of reality is perfectly accurate? Of course it's not - I wear glasses. Without them everything's blurred, and them on straight vertical lines literally appear curved to me. (It's kind of annoying, but my optometrist assures me it's unavoidable if I want things in focus.) So obviously my eyes are a limited and innacurate view of reality - even before I get to the fact I can't see infrared and such. There is a lot of reality that I cannot observe directly and accurately with my mere senses. Infrared, radar, the stuff on the other side of the wall in front of me. My perceptions are limited.

But that doesn't change the fact that what I do see is far, far too consistent and coherent for it to be imagined. I mean, I know what my imagination looks like. I know how solid that is - or rather, isn't. Observable reality isn't like that. So it's real all right.

See the distinction? I can't see everything, and I can't see it perfectly accurately, but what I do see is based directly on something that's real, and I can be quite certain of that because it's all too consistent and coherent to be a dream. My limited and imperfect perception isn't an indicator that things are unreal.

And anybody who disputes that? They're full of it. Now, there might be other real things, other objects, planes, and realms out there that are also real, that are beyond my ability to perceive with my normal senses. Auras. Ghosts. Heaven. Peyote-vision. Canada. Things and places outside of the range of my sight and other senses. And that's fine! There could be things I haven't seen and don't know about. They could even be really interesting things! I'm not ruling that out at all.

But no matter how many other realms and things there might be, nothing can unmake the reality of the realm I'm in. Observable reality is real, indisputably, and anybody who says otherwise is confused, deluded, or a liar trying to sell me something.

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But I guess it comes down to me being so obsessed with being right that being wrong is unacceptable especially in the case with reality.

I mean if there is an objective truth then should it not be lived by rather than our subjective realities?
I agree! However we can be quite certain that observed reality is based on objective truth.
  #68  
Old 01-22-2019, 07:49 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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The logic behind subjectivity being that the mind ďmade it upĒ and therefor it isnít the truth or real.
Solipsism again, huh? Well want to hear something neat?

1) Solipsism presumes that that mind, at least, is real. Cogito Ergo Sum and all that.

2) Wherever your senses are coming from, they're hella consistent and coherent. Solipsism posits that they come from your mind (which, recall, is real).

3) Your senses also clearly aren't coming from the same place as your conscious mind, or from your imagination as you experience it.

4) This means that, logically speaking, even solipsism asserts that your senses are based in something real that is outside of your conscious mind and your normal imagination. Which is to say, that your senses are based in a reality outside of what you would normally consider "yourself". Again, this is true even under solipsism.


The only really novel thing solipsism does is it questions the nature of the reality that underlies our perceptions - while very carefully refusing to so much as speculating about the answers to any of the questions. This is unlike science, which also questions the nature of the reality that underlies our perceptions - but then goes on to try to come up with answers (organs, atoms, subatomic particles, underlying forces, and so on).

Oh, and the other novel thing solipsism does is it tries to pretend that other people's minds are less real than your mind is, via the mechanic of carefully ignoring the fact that the minds of those you encounter clearly have complexities and operating mechanics that are beyond the ability of your conscious mind to directly perceive. Solipsism deals with this massive oversight by whistling innocently and distracting the solipsist with appeals to his own ego.
  #69  
Old 01-24-2019, 11:15 AM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Those are certainly interesting points.

But when I speak about solipsism I mean that I temporarily believed in it. The sensations that resulted were odd. Everything around me felt unreal or illusory. Driving became dangerous and even my interactions with people suffered. Under idealism I believed that if I didn’t see something it didn’t exist which led to some interesting times.

What I mean is that my mind created something based on what I believed to be true (not that it was of course). The same is happening with this “you are the universe” stuff. Like one page put it as you are going nowhere because you are everything. So you driving a car is you driving you to go through you. It made no sense.

So I tried to understand what they were getting at and thought about molecules and atoms. If you you listen to Carl Sagan he says something like you are made of the same elements as the first stars and so is everything else. So in that sense I am made of similar molecules but just in a different form or structure then others (another thing they say is death is a myth it’s just the passing of form which might be true if you look at everything being made of similar elements). But that doesn’t make me the road, or the ocean, or a bee. According to them it does, then there is the issue about what the cut off point is for “separateness” as in what makes one thing distinct, where do you determine the end point. They use our limbs as an example for cut off points that seem to be arbitrary. Or a mountain as being X tall relative to the ground. They claim separateness is some illusion even though at the molecular level it does exist. They use the example of a cracker to refute “essence” since if you break down a cracker enough it loses its “crackerness“, but I don’t think they know how chemistry works. Some components lose the properties of their parts when they combine. A cracker technically has a “ness” since no matter how you break it down to pieces (crumbs) you won’t get water or flour.

But it’s confounded when I have never seen the molecule argument used. Topped off by all the examples they have of personal experience. Like how they saw and felt powerful things. I know that’s not really evidence but it’s convicning to me.
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:55 AM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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A little addition: I think by pictures they mean that what we think something is based on senses and experience than what it actually is. Kind of like how we thinning someone is kind due to experience but if they were they would be all the time. In short I think they refer to the image we make of things based on judgments we form.

Again just a guess though since it really wasn’t explained.
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Old 01-24-2019, 04:58 PM
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I can't really tell you what they actually mean with any confidence, because all I know about what they said is what you've explained, which means that with my extra layer of Telephone I know less about it than you do! So I can only speculate about what sort of silly woo they're peddling. From what you say it just sounds like the standard 'we are connected to everything via magic I am friends with the rocks and trees and we are all brothers together peace love yaddah yaddah yaddah' business.

I think it's a mistake trying to figure out how this stuff works with hard science like molecules and reality - that's like trying to figure out how the animals in Charlotte's Web are able to talk. Their worldviews are straight-up complete fiction. They're telling fantasy stories to each other, and they're able to believe these stories because meditation and/or peyote make the mind feel good. (Or so I hear - I haven't tried either.)
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:26 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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I can't really tell you what they actually mean with any confidence, because all I know about what they said is what you've explained, which means that with my extra layer of Telephone I know less about it than you do! So I can only speculate about what sort of silly woo they're peddling. From what you say it just sounds like the standard 'we are connected to everything via magic I am friends with the rocks and trees and we are all brothers together peace love yaddah yaddah yaddah' business.

I think it's a mistake trying to figure out how this stuff works with hard science like molecules and reality - that's like trying to figure out how the animals in Charlotte's Web are able to talk. Their worldviews are straight-up complete fiction. They're telling fantasy stories to each other, and they're able to believe these stories because meditation and/or peyote make the mind feel good. (Or so I hear - I haven't tried either.)
Well meditation can give one the feeling of being the universe due to altering blood flow to the area of the brain that helps let us know where our body ends and the everything else begins. My guess is that the sensation they get from that is the basis of claim.

Also in regards to the ďyou are the universeĒ, the answer given to me was that before you there was the universe. Since they believe there is no death but just the passing of form, my guess is that the parts that make you up (molecules and atoms) donít actually die, so therefor you donít truly die. The pieces that make up your body go forth and bind with other pieces to make something else. At least thatís what I think they mean, they never actually use that part. From where I stand and see I am this body, which is MADE of the same stuff as other things in the universe, but eventually dies and breaks down when that happens. So when this body is no more I am no more, but the parts are still there. I am not the parts, I was the whole that those parts made. Considering there isn't proof that consciousness survives death I'm still sticking to the whole you are the body and not "awareness". The body is part of the whole but not the whole. Like a puzzle piece being a part of the whole but not the whole.

Itís confusing me.

But what I told you are the answers they gave me. There wasn't an explanation just another non-sequitur.
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Old 01-24-2019, 05:51 PM
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I'm pretty certain that they believe that people who die have souls that live on without really dying. I'm pretty sure they don't mean that people live on because their decomposing bodies leave molecules behind. And I'm quite certain that there's no point whatsoever in trying to bend their fantasy fiction to fit within anything real or scientific. It's not supposed to be scientific - it's spiritual. It's magic.

Seriously - this is fantasy. It's as compatible with reality as the fiction books I've written, where people have psychic powers. And I mean exactly as compatible - in both cases a fiction has been created that pretends that reality works in a way that allows the scientific powers. The main difference is that I handwave a change in the universe that allows it - and that my books are way more entertaining to think about. (Buy them! Buy them all! All two of them! Bwahahahahaha!)

Ahem. Where was I. Oh yes.

Don't waste your time trying to make the woo make sense - even the people who believe in the woo don't attempt to figure out how it works like you're doing. Because it won't happen - it's not designed to make sense in real reality. It's just woo. It just do what woo do.

So your time is better spent doing other things. Fun things! Like watching movies, playing games, hanging out with (non-woo) friends, or, well, reading fiction books. (Whistles innocently.)
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:40 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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I'm pretty certain that they believe that people who die have souls that live on without really dying. I'm pretty sure they don't mean that people live on because their decomposing bodies leave molecules behind. And I'm quite certain that there's no point whatsoever in trying to bend their fantasy fiction to fit within anything real or scientific. It's not supposed to be scientific - it's spiritual. It's magic.

Seriously - this is fantasy. It's as compatible with reality as the fiction books I've written, where people have psychic powers. And I mean exactly as compatible - in both cases a fiction has been created that pretends that reality works in a way that allows the scientific powers. The main difference is that I handwave a change in the universe that allows it - and that my books are way more entertaining to think about. (Buy them! Buy them all! All two of them! Bwahahahahaha!)

Ahem. Where was I. Oh yes.

Don't waste your time trying to make the woo make sense - even the people who believe in the woo don't attempt to figure out how it works like you're doing. Because it won't happen - it's not designed to make sense in real reality. It's just woo. It just do what woo do.

So your time is better spent doing other things. Fun things! Like watching movies, playing games, hanging out with (non-woo) friends, or, well, reading fiction books. (Whistles innocently.)
But my brain has to figure out how it works so I can take it apart. Carl Sagan said something along similar lines like "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself". Well it was " Because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star-stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."

I know that the basis of their claim is likely as a result of meditation (blood flow and all that), which is why I never get an explanation. But.....I don't know. For someone reason I thin they are right (even though reason says otherwise and working backwards from a conclusion is wrong because you don't seek evidence that you are right you look at what the facts say). The facts say that I (this body) is made of the same materials as other objects in the universe. When it dies everything dissipates and I (the body) cease to be.
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Old 01-24-2019, 07:57 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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But my brain has to figure out how it works so I can take it apart. Carl Sagan said something along similar lines like "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself". Well it was " Because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star-stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."

I know that the basis of their claim is likely as a result of meditation (blood flow and all that), which is why I never get an explanation. But.....I don't know. For someone reason I thin they are right (even though reason says otherwise and working backwards from a conclusion is wrong because you don't seek evidence that you are right you look at what the facts say). The facts say that I (this body) is made of the same materials as other objects in the universe. When it dies everything dissipates and I (the body) cease to be.
You can't figure out how it works because it doesn't work. It's fiction.

Take Harry Potter. In Harry Potter certain people can say words and make certain gestures with a stick composed of various strange materials and things happen. There is no effort whatsoever in the books to propose a chain of causation between those words being voiced and those materials moving around, and the events that result from those words and motions happening. It just happens because magic. This magic clearly has rules, but there is no mechanism behind it to be found - the story didn't require it and JK Rowling didn't describe it, and almost certainly didn't even design it. Were you to attempt to disprove Harry Potter magic by showing that the mechanism behind it doesn't work you'd be stymied - there's no mechanism to examine.

In woo, there's also no mechanism to examine. They make a bunch of assertions and claim that certain actions will cause certain effects, but they don't say how - and when it sounds like they are saying how things work it inevitably devolves into a pile of buzzwords that make no sense. Because there's no "there" there.

Don't waste your time. If their nonsense actually worked, science would already describe it. It doesn't because it doesn't.
  #76  
Old 01-25-2019, 02:34 PM
Machinaforce Machinaforce is offline
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Their reasoning for being the universe was that before you there was the universe. Not sure how that works. Then by realizing you are the universe you can live to the age of the universe and something about immortality. Reading the brochure made it sound like these people fear death. But being able to imagine what their claims would be and feel like if true gives me pause.

What about the experiences and “insight” these people have through their teachings and practice? That’s what really gets me.
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Old 01-25-2019, 02:39 PM
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Their experiences and "insights" are bullshit and woo, designed to separate the gullible from their money.
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  #78  
Old 01-25-2019, 03:26 PM
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If you must get into a philosopher, I suggest David Hume.
Here is an article from a woman who's existential crisis was solved by reading Hume. (It even talks about Buddhism.) The money quote:

Quote:
But here’s Hume’s really great idea: Ultimately, the metaphysical foundations don’t matter. Experience is enough all by itself. What do you lose when you give up God or “reality” or even “I”? The moon is still just as bright; you can still predict that a falling glass will break, and you can still act to catch it; you can still feel compassion for the suffering of others. Science and work and morality remain intact. Go back to your backgammon game after your skeptical crisis, Hume wrote, and it will be exactly the same game.

In fact, if you let yourself think this way, your life might actually get better. Give up the prospect of life after death, and you will finally really appreciate life before it. Give up metaphysics, and you can concentrate on physics. Give up the idea of your precious, unique, irreplaceable self, and you might actually be more sympathetic to other people.
(Religious people might be annoyed at the digs at God, but I think it's possible to embrace this attitude with your faith intact, as long as you admit that it is faith.)

But that's not the most important thing. What I want to talk about is this:

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Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
But when I speak about solipsism I mean that I temporarily believed in it. The sensations that resulted were odd. Everything around me felt unreal or illusory. Driving became dangerous and even my interactions with people suffered. Under idealism I believed that if I didn’t see something it didn’t exist which led to some interesting times.
Look, if you are for real here--and I believe that you are; If your philosophical obsessions are interfering with your ability to act in the world, you need to see a doctor. I'm not saying that to insult you or put you down, I have mental health problems myself. I'm just saying that a doctor could guide you to a therapist or a psychiatrist who would be able to help you be less affected by these intrusive thoughts. A doctor would be much more helpful than a bunch of snarky message board folk who you don't seem to listen to anyway.

Good luck.

Last edited by Larry Borgia; 01-25-2019 at 03:28 PM.
  #79  
Old 01-25-2019, 03:32 PM
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Their reasoning for being the universe was that before you there was the universe. Not sure how that works.
What would it take to convince you that it doesn't work?
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Old 01-25-2019, 04:49 PM
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Their reasoning for being the universe was that before you there was the universe. Not sure how that works. Then by realizing you are the universe you can live to the age of the universe and something about immortality. Reading the brochure made it sound like these people fear death. But being able to imagine what their claims would be and feel like if true gives me pause.
It would feel exactly like bathing in warm butter. And I mean exactly like.

Er, spoiler alert!

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What about the experiences and ďinsightĒ these people have through their teachings and practice? Thatís what really gets me.
I should hope you can agree that this "insight" certainly isn't informational insight, because it doesn't come with sufficient information for them to even be able to explain it clearly. Which means it must be emotional insight. Or should I say emotional "insight".

I strongly suspect you could get similar "insight" from smoking weed.
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Old 01-26-2019, 07:49 PM
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Their experiences and "insights" are bullshit and woo, designed to separate the gullible from their money.
I guess. But the no self aspect bugs me:

https://youtu.be/8kX62n6yNXA

The above is just a point. But it seems to okay off of real fears. Like if there is no me then what on earth do I build my life on.

I try to be logical and clear. But to be honest itís how they claim to be beyond mind that hooks me in. I donít know why I fall for that mysticism.
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Old 01-26-2019, 07:58 PM
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If you must get into a philosopher, I suggest David Hume.
Here is an article from a woman who's existential crisis was solved by reading Hume. (It even talks about Buddhism.) The money quote:



(Religious people might be annoyed at the digs at God, but I think it's possible to embrace this attitude with your faith intact, as long as you admit that it is faith.)

But that's not the most important thing. What I want to talk about is this:



Look, if you are for real here--and I believe that you are; If your philosophical obsessions are interfering with your ability to act in the world, you need to see a doctor. I'm not saying that to insult you or put you down, I have mental health problems myself. I'm just saying that a doctor could guide you to a therapist or a psychiatrist who would be able to help you be less affected by these intrusive thoughts. A doctor would be much more helpful than a bunch of snarky message board folk who you don't seem to listen to anyway.

Good luck.
Well what I meant by solipsism is that I ďbelievedĒ it to be true and my brain made it appear to be so. I.e everything around me felt unreal and illusory.

As far as the Hume lady is concerned, she is incorrect. Mostly in regard to the self for if there is no ďoneĒ then there is no compassion, love, empathy. I know I lost those things when I briefly believed that. If you throw out the idea of the self then you lose a lot with it. Iím guessing she didnít think too much on it.
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Old 01-27-2019, 08:45 PM
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I mean, aren't you troubled by the statement that meditation reveals that you are not alive.
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Old 01-27-2019, 10:18 PM
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I mean, aren't you troubled by the statement that meditation reveals that you are not alive.
No, because it's a stupid statement

Last edited by Larry Borgia; 01-27-2019 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 01-27-2019, 10:38 PM
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No, because it's a stupid statement
But why is it stupid?
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Old 01-27-2019, 10:48 PM
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Also how can I (or you) be sure it isn't true?
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Old 01-28-2019, 01:48 AM
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Also how can I (or you) be sure it isn't true?
Come on. You are alive. Again I urge you to see a doctor to deal with your obsessions. This is my last post about this. Good luck.
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:21 AM
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Also how can I (or you) be sure it isn't true?
Well, I can be sure because Descartes did the work for me long ago. Seriously, I used to mess around with this sort of thing when I was in college. (I minored in philosophy.) The difference between what I did and what you're talking about is that I had a sure sense of self to start with. You don't seem to have that. Furthermore, as others have also said, you're not just exploring this stuff: you have intrusive thoughts about it to the extent that you're incessantly doubting your own reality, and it's not doing anything for you.

Seriously, find yourself a wise therapist and let THAT guru be your guide. tay off youtube, etc. and don't go back until you get your mind straight via a good shrink.
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Old 01-28-2019, 04:56 PM
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Well, I can be sure because Descartes did the work for me long ago. Seriously, I used to mess around with this sort of thing when I was in college. (I minored in philosophy.) The difference between what I did and what you're talking about is that I had a sure sense of self to start with. You don't seem to have that. Furthermore, as others have also said, you're not just exploring this stuff: you have intrusive thoughts about it to the extent that you're incessantly doubting your own reality, and it's not doing anything for you.

Seriously, find yourself a wise therapist and let THAT guru be your guide. tay off youtube, etc. and don't go back until you get your mind straight via a good shrink.
But there are other philosophies that cast doubt on that very claim about a strong sense of self saying that it is an illusion and a source of suffering.
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Old 01-28-2019, 05:55 PM
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I mean, aren't you troubled by the statement that meditation reveals that you are not alive.
I don't believe for one second that mediation could reveal that I'm not alive. For one thing, who would it be revealing that to?

Philosophies that suggest that one's perceptions are false are specious and unproductive, but philosophies that include seriously thinking that the person doing the thinking doesn't exist are stupid. The thoughts themselves are a signpost saying "There is a thinking entity behind these thoughts."

And any philosophy that says otherwise is, quite obviously, wrong.
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Old 01-28-2019, 06:57 PM
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I don't believe for one second that mediation could reveal that I'm not alive. For one thing, who would it be revealing that to?

Philosophies that suggest that one's perceptions are false are specious and unproductive, but philosophies that include seriously thinking that the person doing the thinking doesn't exist are stupid. The thoughts themselves are a signpost saying "There is a thinking entity behind these thoughts."

And any philosophy that says otherwise is, quite obviously, wrong.
Every time I ask that they say "who is doing the thinking", etc. The claim is that there is no solid and unchanging you carried moment to moment, that the idea of you is an illusion. They say thoughts are present but not really a thinker.

Needless to say I don't know how to respond to that.
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Old 01-28-2019, 07:27 PM
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Every time I ask that they say "who is doing the thinking", etc. The claim is that there is no solid and unchanging you carried moment to moment, that the idea of you is an illusion. They say thoughts are present but not really a thinker.

Needless to say I don't know how to respond to that.
The idea that things have to be static and unchanging to have continuous identity is a false statement. Consider a car - the engine runs, the wheels turn, it's not solid and unchanging. However it still has continuity of existence, obviously. And even more obviously it doesn't cease to exist the moment you turn the key.

So no, the fact that you are not an unmoving statue doesn't mean you doesn't exist. To claim otherwise requires one to be using a silly approach to defining identity which is utterly and completely incompatible with how the concept is used in reality.
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Old 01-28-2019, 07:33 PM
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Every time I ask that they say "who is doing the thinking", etc. The claim is that there is no solid and unchanging you carried moment to moment, that the idea of you is an illusion. They say thoughts are present but not really a thinker.

Needless to say I don't know how to respond to that.
You could respond to this first: Who the hell are "they"? No more "they"s, for fuck's sake-quote real people. It is extremely unfair to ask us to respond to the whims of the unnamed "they"s you keep bringing up, so tell us who said what, and in what context(this is where cites would come in handy, btw).
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:08 PM
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You could respond to this first: Who the hell are "they"? No more "they"s, for fuck's sake-quote real people. It is extremely unfair to ask us to respond to the whims of the unnamed "they"s you keep bringing up, so tell us who said what, and in what context(this is where cites would come in handy, btw).
I say they because it's usually some variation of Eastern Mysticism.

With stuff like:

"Historically, one of the biggest obstacles in overcoming problems in life and reaching enlightenment was the fact that the mind could not be precisely defined. This prevented people from discovering who they are and how to become Truth. This meditation defines the human mind as an accumulation of pictures, stored within oneís body and mind. These pictures are an accumulation of past experiences which are taken through the eyes, ears, nose, mouth, and body. Ö

You will discover all the answers to these questions as true wisdom enters into your mind by cleansing the false mind. Through the method of this meditation, you can cleanse your mind. This involves a guided simple step-by-step method that anyone can easily follow. There are seven levels in this meditation. Even after completing just the first level you will get to know that the true mind has come in, and that is the enlightenment."


Which is pretty much on a poster in front of the meditation center. From the first part it seems like they are saying that subjectivity is false. That reality and the things in it are not what we think they are or what they mean to us, they are "empty". It's kind of like nihilism saying there is no inherent meaning, thereby extending it to mean that things, people, etc are really empty of anything. That our opinions and beliefs about reality are false because the truth is that they aren't inherently those things, these judgments are just what we place on them as a result of experience, and they aren't true.

I guess it boils down to subjectivity being a lie. I find it hard to argue against that since reality is essentially empty of everything we judge it to be. But they go on to say that through their "subtraction meditation" that you find happiness, compassion, positive mind, love, etc. I don't know about you but if I had to throw out all the judgments and opinions I have about reality I would essentially be a rock. Compassion is a judgment call, happiness wouldn't be there since that is usually founded on our opinions of things, forget love and positivity too. Especially since labeling something positive is a judgment call as well.

I don't know how they resolve such blatant contradictions.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:17 PM
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But I guess the main thing is that I want to be right. I want to live the truth, even if it would make me unhappy. On some level I guess what they are saying is true, that reality is empty of all the things we judge it to be, same with people. But living that way isn't living though, that sounds like withdrawing from life (even if it is true in a sense).

So in my mind it appears as either "living a lie" and being happy, or living according to reality and being "miserable" (I say that because I tried it once and it didn't result in happiness just feeling empty and not moving). And in my mind the first option is unacceptable.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:25 PM
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It is NOT a contradiction when one person says one thing and another person says another thing. You are creating a false contradiction by lumping them all together as a nameless "they", and until you stop this bad habit there is no possible way to converse with you meaningfully.
Bye.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-29-2019 at 04:26 PM.
  #97  
Old 01-29-2019, 04:30 PM
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I don't know how they resolve such blatant contradictions.
In logic, contradictions disprove the argument that leads to the contradictions - either some premise is false, or some of the logic following from the premises is false.

Just saying.


...


Okay, I won't just leave it at that - though seriously, it's not your job to figure out how to swallow this pill. If they want you to buy into this, they have to sell it - and that includes getting you to understand it. They're failing at this because it doesn't make sense - it only works on the credulous who don't require things to make sense. I get the vibe that you used to be more credulous but are gradually becoming less so, and thus you're less of a target for these kind of lines. (Good for you!)

All that said, if a person utterly discarded all memories, I'm pretty sure they would still have a personality. The thing is though that forced amnesia doesn't actually help anything because when you open you're eyes you're still living in the real world, where it gets seriously inconvenient if you've forgotten how to talk or where you live. Which raises the question of what the end goal is.

My briefest of Googles suggests that the end goal of enlightenment (in Buddhism, anyway) is annihilation - they're literally seeking to end an existence which they extrafactually have decided is indefinitely perpetuated by reincarnation. In which case, good news! In actual fact everybody gets one annihilation, free of charge, at the end of their life, whether they spend their time seeking enlightenment or eating corn chips and watching Netflix. So all this enlightenment business is essentially the same as trying to pay somebody for something you already own - it is, at best, a complete waste of time.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:31 PM
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But I guess the main thing is that I want to be right. I want to live the truth, even if it would make me unhappy. On some level I guess what they are saying is true, that reality is empty of all the things we judge it to be, same with people. But living that way isn't living though, that sounds like withdrawing from life (even if it is true in a sense).

So in my mind it appears as either "living a lie" and being happy, or living according to reality and being "miserable" (I say that because I tried it once and it didn't result in happiness just feeling empty and not moving). And in my mind the first option is unacceptable.
Observable reality is the truth. Woo is the lie.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:44 PM
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It is NOT a contradiction when one person says one thing and another person says another thing. You are creating a false contradiction by lumping them all together as a nameless "they", and until you stop this bad habit there is no possible way to converse with you meaningfully.
Bye.
It is. It was essentially the Buddhist concept of emptiness and detachment.
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Old 01-29-2019, 04:48 PM
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In logic, contradictions disprove the argument that leads to the contradictions - either some premise is false, or some of the logic following from the premises is false.

Just saying.


...


Okay, I won't just leave it at that - though seriously, it's not your job to figure out how to swallow this pill. If they want you to buy into this, they have to sell it - and that includes getting you to understand it. They're failing at this because it doesn't make sense - it only works on the credulous who don't require things to make sense. I get the vibe that you used to be more credulous but are gradually becoming less so, and thus you're less of a target for these kind of lines. (Good for you!)

All that said, if a person utterly discarded all memories, I'm pretty sure they would still have a personality. The thing is though that forced amnesia doesn't actually help anything because when you open you're eyes you're still living in the real world, where it gets seriously inconvenient if you've forgotten how to talk or where you live. Which raises the question of what the end goal is.

My briefest of Googles suggests that the end goal of enlightenment (in Buddhism, anyway) is annihilation - they're literally seeking to end an existence which they extrafactually have decided is indefinitely perpetuated by reincarnation. In which case, good news! In actual fact everybody gets one annihilation, free of charge, at the end of their life, whether they spend their time seeking enlightenment or eating corn chips and watching Netflix. So all this enlightenment business is essentially the same as trying to pay somebody for something you already own - it is, at best, a complete waste of time.
That doesn't really get at the point about subjectivity that I was making. Why it's hard for me to shake is that on some level it is true.
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