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  #151  
Old 02-03-2019, 10:33 PM
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Who do you offended painting your face white?
White supremacists. In the 1977 TV movie Minstrel Man, a Black performer in a traveling minstrel show hates the indignity and humiliation of Black performers having to wear blackface and act foolish. One night he crashes the performance in whiteface then gets upset and runs away. The white audience riots and the cops throw the whole minstrel troupe in jail. Next morning when they get out they find him lynched from a tree, still in whiteface.
  #152  
Old 02-04-2019, 12:47 AM
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I don't even cosplay, but some people here seem to be commenting on it with little or no experience dealing with cosplayers and the cosplay scene at conventions.

Gender swap costumes, male or female, are generally open field. Black people in the costumes of pale-skinned characters has also been acceptable as long as I've been going to cons, which has been since I was a teenager back in the (mumble) nineties; mostly because everyone going to these realizes, and especially back then realized, there are a lot of series and genres where there are almost no black characters. What if you're a black fan, and your favorite character is white, but a bunch of your friends are dressing up as characters from a book, game or show where everyone (or everyone with an exception or two) appears white? Do you ALWAYS go for that exception or two in every series just as your default 'role,' or do you dress up as the character you like? The more serious the cosplayer, the greater odds they're part of a group.

Being a perfect representation of the character might be the goal for someone going onto the stage (I guess that's what someone meant by "for their entrance" they would be on their knees? ) for a cosplay competition, or someone who takes photos and posts them en masse in cosplay form. But even then, it's largely based on the cosplayer too, their likes and needs. There are a lot of fun and interesting cosplays that are as much about the character interpretation as an effort to just look like the character 'in the movies' or whatever. And there are children who come in simpler costumes, various other people who aren't perfect matches but just dressing up for fun....

Blackface to do "cosplay" will make you look stupid and probably bigoted. "Whiteface" makeup, if not done professionally, may not look bigoted so much as just puzzling to people, but I think both con-goers and cosplayers in general would rather see that avoided as an effort too... our cons are honestly white enough without bleaching them further artificially.

Walking in on your knees with fake feet attached will probably look less like 'a hobbit' and more like you're trying to mock the disabled, unless you have one hell of a good costume otherwise and are really careful where you do your... 'hobbit shuffle.' A normal looking black man on his feet with a great cape and Hobbit clothes would make a lot more sense to me as a cosplayer than a white guy with fake feet trying to shuffle on his knees past. That person would probably be the person who has heard about conventions, but never been to one before, and hasn't seriously considered cosplay beyond the vague concept you look like the character. Maybe with a side impression most cosplayers are going to be chubby dudes wearing Spider-Man PJs. Lots of casual cosplayers spend hundreds on their outfits.

Why not spend hundreds to look whiter, if the character does? One, as I said, there's a long-lasting tradition that this is just not needed at a con, people will think you are very strange even if you did put on 'whiteface' for a cosplay. Two, you will still look ridiculous unless the job is perfect and your own skin tone work well with it, so why spend the extra money and effort when you will look better with your own skin tone under the costume, even if it is different skin tone from the character? (Note again, especially in games and anime, the HUGE difference between the number of "white" and "black" appearing characters available.) Three, this sort of casual 'well it sounds like it would look better to me' idea of what would lend verisimilitude over the realities of preparing a proper costume and bringing to a convention, showing it off in the halls or on stage or at photo ops, just shows a general lack of understanding of how complex these costumes often are, how customized, and how few of them are cheap or last-minute efforts. There are a lot of factors that go into an impressive cosplay, but 'the skin color' or 'the height' rarely have any relationship. It's the outfit and the attitude, mostly.
  #153  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:04 AM
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Trafalgar Laura Trafalgar Laura is offline
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Blackface to do "cosplay" will make you look stupid and probably bigoted.
I feel the need to clarify here that the "probably" is my hedging other peoples' responses. You will look bigoted. Like, you would have a good chance of getting rightfully chased straight out the convention hall door you entered, by very angry questions of "what the hell" from the people who see you in a costume that includes brown skin 'painted on.' You may be escorted off and possibly banned from the con for trying to cause trouble or a fight. Don't do it!

Whiteface has less historical baggage, but it's still not a good look. An extremely fit black man in a Captain America costume only looks ridiculous if you think that idea of Captain America possibly being a black man is ridiculous, somehow. I would like to hope most people at conventions don't think that way.

Why would black hobbits be ridiculous, for that matter? Did the book say "Hobbits, known for their universally pale complexion" at some point? It's been years since I read it... but it's still fantasy, and still has room for creative interpretation.
  #154  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:12 AM
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Is John Belushi's Samurai character offensive?
  #155  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:44 AM
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I can see both sides of this authenticity thing.
Here's some real life examples;
I think it's safe to say that this guy being kinda built, being black, having the hair, and actually having a vague resemblance to Wesley Snipes all contribute to the awesomeness of this costume.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/f7/42/63/f...me-cosplay.jpg


This guy's Browning up for geordi didn't add anything to his costume and looks stupid.
https://www.bleedingcool.com/wp-cont.../03/geordi.jpg

Though to be fair I think he was attempting to get all the details he could and I don't get the feeling he intended some racial putdown, he even did contacts.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8263/8...437bbe8a_b.jpg
  #156  
Old 02-04-2019, 08:51 AM
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Ive also seen medeival movies with knights that were black and admittedly it struck me about the same as a movie with white Zulu warriors would have. Both would easily qualify as cultural appropriation if you're stuck on that buzzword.
Though after a few minutes it doesn't really detract from the movie, for me at least.
  #157  
Old 02-04-2019, 09:07 AM
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From an artists standpoint, the main reason Geordi's browning up looks stupid is the use of a single hue and saturation all over, where a multitude of hues, tones and saturation would be appropriate.

Black people aren't walnut brown all over any more than white people are light peach all over.

That just makes you look like a cartoon.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-04-2019 at 09:09 AM.
  #158  
Old 02-04-2019, 09:15 AM
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The movie White Chicks is really almost an exact reversal of the minstrel shows. Twi black guys go full on whiteface and it doesn't try to be realistic, pokes fun at racial stereotypes the whole way through etc.

However, theres nobody in the audience apt to believe all white women are just like that so nobody really cares.
  #159  
Old 02-04-2019, 11:26 AM
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Then there's this guy , who's hard to recognize as his character;
https://static.cosplay-it.com/df108288-04df-42f0-8d26-7dabec1d1620.jpg

As opposed to this guy;
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/45/f7/62/45f762c802e7eb63373359cd66c1514a.jpg

But this probably has a lot to do with the amount of exposed skin the character is always seen with.
It's certainly not for a lack of other identifiable characteristics in the character.
  #160  
Old 02-04-2019, 11:31 AM
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The movie White Chicks is really almost an exact reversal of the minstrel shows. Twi black guys go full on whiteface and it doesn't try to be realistic, pokes fun at racial stereotypes the whole way through etc.

However, theres nobody in the audience apt to believe all white women are just like that so nobody really cares.
Probably because we are all exposed to plenty of real examples of white women.

The same is not true for racial minorities.

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  #161  
Old 02-04-2019, 12:17 PM
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Here's a clip of Father Ted showing three priests blacked-up as The Three Degrees plus other characters all wearing costumes, wigs and make-up in order to change their complexion.

Are any of them acceptable? if so, which ones and how so?, if not, which ones and why not?
Bear in mind that the humor of Father Ted is heavily driven by priests doing deeply inappropriate things. They even lampshaded it in one episode.

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My grandson will be thrilled to know that, thanks!
The film Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse is highly recommended although be warned that viewers will be overstimulated by the end of the opening credits.
  #162  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:11 PM
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Sounds like an Obama mask would probably not cause a scene but a polo and khakis and a visor and golf club and brown skin for tiger woods likely would cause problems..
But without the blackface it’s just a Donald Trump costume.


The USA is a wonderful place to live. I have all sorts of freedoms, both large and small.

I can move to anywhere in the country that I want. I am free to pursue any career that I want. I can associate with anyone that I want.

I am also basically a kind and empathetic person. If I become aware that my first choice of Halloween costume is something that a lot of my fellow citizens might find hurtful, I’ll pick another costume. I don’t need to analyze the details. I don’t need to complain that I’m being censored or that my freedoms are being abridged. I don’t need a history lesson. It just doesn’t rise to that level of importance. It’s an incredibly minor moment of self-censorship borne of basic human kindness, akin to deciding not to lecture a total stranger on their weight or personal appearance.

So when I see someone protesting strongly the idea of self-censoring their Halloween costume I think something else is going on. It indicates to me that they have, at best, an indifference to inflicting pain on certain members of their community, if not an actual desire to inflict that hurt on their fellow citizens. Because my “right” to wear any Halloween costume I want is incredibly unimportant to me. It would be different if it were my choice of career or partners that offended other members of my community. But it doesn’t come close to rising to that level.

Now some of you might be tempted to respond.......”You are a liberal hypocrite, Ann. You constantly insult Trump and his followers on Twitter. Some people might find your use of the#fat#microbic#orangeasshole#daughterfucker#treason#federalprison hashtags very offensive and hateful.”

To which I will say, “Hell Yes!”. I hate that Donald Trump asshole and my freedom to express that is very important to me. Fuck his feelings and fuck the feelings of his supporters. I’m not necessarily proud of this but I will be honest about it.

Now, if the people that feel they really need the freedom to wear offensive Halloween costumes would be equally honest about the motives behind their strong need to exercise this freedom, then we can have an honest discussion. But as long as they hide behind the disingenuous “I just need to fully understand why those people find it offensive, why should their feelings abridge my rights, how come Famous Actor X could do it in Big Movie Y but I can’t..., I need to understand the history” there will not be a truly honest discussion.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 02-04-2019 at 01:14 PM.
  #163  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:18 PM
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Probably because we are all exposed to plenty of real examples of white women.

The same is not true for racial minorities.

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  #164  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:20 PM
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Freaking autocorrect ruined my best line.
#microdick

Although he is a toxic microbe

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 02-04-2019 at 01:23 PM.
  #165  
Old 02-04-2019, 01:42 PM
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But without the blackface it’s just a Donald Trump costume.


The USA is a wonderful place to live. I have all sorts of freedoms, both large and small.

I can move to anywhere in the country that I want. I am free to pursue any career that I want. I can associate with anyone that I want.

I am also basically a kind and empathetic person. If I become aware that my first choice of Halloween costume is something that a lot of my fellow citizens might find hurtful, I’ll pick another costume. I don’t need to analyze the details. I don’t need to complain that I’m being censored or that my freedoms are being abridged. I don’t need a history lesson. It just doesn’t rise to that level of importance. It’s an incredibly minor moment of self-censorship borne of basic human kindness, akin to deciding not to lecture a total stranger on their weight or personal appearance.

So when I see someone protesting strongly the idea of self-censoring their Halloween costume I think something else is going on. It indicates to me that they have, at best, an indifference to inflicting pain on certain members of their community, if not an actual desire to inflict that hurt on their fellow citizens. Because my “right” to wear any Halloween costume I want is incredibly unimportant to me. It would be different if it were my choice of career or partners that offended other members of my community. But it doesn’t come close to rising to that level.

Now some of you might be tempted to respond.......”You are a liberal hypocrite, Ann. You constantly insult Trump and his followers on Twitter. Some people might find your use of the#fat#microbic#orangeasshole#daughterfucker#treason#federalprison hashtags very offensive and hateful.”

To which I will say, “Hell Yes!”. I hate that Donald Trump asshole and my freedom to express that is very important to me. Fuck his feelings and fuck the feelings of his supporters. I’m not necessarily proud of this but I will be honest about it.

Now, if the people that feel they really need the freedom to wear offensive Halloween costumes would be equally honest about the motives behind their strong need to exercise this freedom, then we can have an honest discussion. But as long as they hide behind the disingenuous “I just need to fully understand why those people find it offensive, why should their feelings abridge my rights, how come Famous Actor X could do it in Big Movie Y but I can’t..., I need to understand the history” there will not be a truly honest discussion.
That's all well and good if you're ready to accept whatever you're told.

In that case you can't wear wigs outside your ethnic group or play a video game character outside your ethnic group because that offends people.

It's also convenient if you happen to be someone who naturally understands social interaction as opposed to someone who had to be tutored for years to understand what facial expressions mean.

Thanks for being dismissive though.
  #166  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:02 PM
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Ive also seen medeival movies with knights that were black and admittedly it struck me about the same as a movie with white Zulu warriors would have. Both would easily qualify as cultural appropriation if you're stuck on that buzzword.
Not at all. Because there were Black and other POC Knights in period fiction.
  #167  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:02 PM
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Bear in mind that the humor of Father Ted is heavily driven by priests doing deeply inappropriate things.
but regardless, that is still people putting on black make-up in order to represent black people. Therefore we can agree it is not inherently racist to do so.

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They even lampshaded it in one episode.
Eh? that's a bit "Roger Irrelevant"
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  #168  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:03 PM
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Without the history, and seeing it around so many times it would never occur to me why any attempt to look like someone else, typically taken as flattery would be offensive.

So sorting out what is sensationalism and what is actual real world concensus is actually kind of important in a number of ways.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-04-2019 at 02:04 PM.
  #169  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:06 PM
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Anyone else get the sense the OP isn't quite as puzzled as they initially stated? Seems to me they already know which side of the argument they're coming down on.
  #170  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:08 PM
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Not at all. Because there were Black and other POC Knights in period fiction.
Did not know that. Although the one I'm thinking of had entire armies. Still that kinda cool.
  #171  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:10 PM
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Did not know that. Although the one I'm thinking of had entire armies.
What movie is that?
  #172  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:11 PM
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Anyone else get the sense the OP isn't quite as puzzled as they initially stated? Seems to me they already know which side of the argument they're coming down on.
There's not really a side. As I'm actually trying to determine the dividing line.


Though I think I've come to a conclusion.

Which is basically skin paint bad.
The rest is sensationalism.
  #173  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:12 PM
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That's all well and good if you're ready to accept whatever you're told.

In that case you can't wear wigs outside your ethnic group or play a video game character outside your ethnic group because that offends people.

It's also convenient if you happen to be someone who naturally understands social interaction as opposed to someone who had to be tutored for years to understand what facial expressions mean.

Thanks for being dismissive though.
You’re welcome?
  #174  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:15 PM
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I wanna say King Arthur legend of the sword.....
  #175  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:53 PM
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My question is, how far removed from blackface do you have to be to be disqualified from political office? (sans a profuse apology)

Is the entire cast and crew of Tropic Thunder disqualified from public office, or just Robert Downey Jr? How about if you saw it, and enjoyed it? (a past facebook post dug up proving so).
  #176  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:16 PM
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I wanna say King Arthur legend of the sword.....
You realise a movie with a giant magic snake is not exactly a period piece, right?
  #177  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:36 PM
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Quoth Snowboarder Bo:

If a person is portraying Lucille Ball, and they make their hair curly and red, well, isn't that Lucille Ball's natural hair "style"?
Bad example, because no, that's not her natural hair.

As an aside, the comic strip Sally Forth recently had both Sally and the mother of one of Hillary's friends cosplaying for a con, as two characters from their favorite (fictitious) 80s cartoon. We later see an excerpt from the cartoon, and it turns out that the character cosplayed by Sally (who is white) was black, while the character cosplayed by the other mom (who's black) was white.
  #178  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:42 PM
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Re "dressing up" as a black person.

By browning up your skin to play a character who just happens to be black, you're likening their skin color to a costume. That's not KKK racist, but it is still incredibly stupid.

Like, if I were going to cosplay David Bowie, I would go all glam rock. I'd get a red mullet wig and paint a big zigzag across my face and squeeze into some crazy looking tight-ass pants and some boots and then sling a guitar around my neck. Boom, I'm David Bowie. Slapping some white paint on my face would make me look stupid. I'd be basically telling everyone that I think white skin is David Bowie's signature, the thing that makes him special and recognizable.

That said, I don't think cosplaying a black person is the same thing as doing "blackface". There's a difference between applying make-up on your face in a careful, deliberate manner to simulate someone's real complexion and slapping on some black shoe polish. Michael Jackson did not have black skin. He had a medium brown complexion. If your costume is pretty much indistinguishable from what you'd find in a minstrel show, then yeah, you're gonna get a lot of side eye. This is true today and it would have been true in 1984 as well.

Dan Ackroyd did brownface in "Trading Places" and didn't catch any flak for it. Neither did Gene Wilder, Billy Crystal, or Robert Downey Jr.
This is the most compelling, relatable explanation I've read on this subject; thank you. I've always understood why what we usually think of as blackface is abhorrent but I still wasn't quite on board with vilifying people who are using it to portray a particular person- the first thing that came to mind is Julianne Hough as Suzanne from Orange is the New Black. Now I get it. I still think many people are doing or defending it out of honest ignorance but if I can change my view, so possibly can they.

Would you perhaps consider going on tour?
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Old 02-04-2019, 03:44 PM
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As it got mentioned in the OP but mostly dropped in the thread, I want to throw out a few comments about "digital blackface." When people first threw that term around in the past year or so, I thought it was goofy or knee-jerky, but I've started to see it a lot more. The problem is that it's not a very good term for what it describes.

It's not about using a black avatar in a game or using black emojis -- it's about using those things as a way to play with stereotypes. It's not uncommon to see "edgy" white teens playing black avatars in games and using it as an opportunity to do their best impression of "ebonics" or throw around racial slurs.

The most common form is actually people posting reaction gifs or memes, especially of the "tough black woman giving side-eye" or "black rappers performing for a camera" variety. And, like, that can be fine. But there's definitely a pattern I've started to see where some (white) folks have started using those as their go-to reactions and I can see a very good argument that it contributes a lot to reducing black people to a handful of white-approved characteristics. The parallel to minstrel shows where a few black characteristics were isolated, heightened, and played for laughs by white folks isn't as much of a reach as I originally thought.
  #180  
Old 02-04-2019, 03:58 PM
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I don't think white people look at another white person and say to themselves, "Hey! A white guy/woman! Look at all the whiteness!" No, they look at the things about that person that have nothing to do with their skin coloring, since their skin coloring isn't remarkable. That's how black people want to be seen too. Is that so hard to understand?
I think you've over-explained some of your views in this thread, though to be fair it's always going to be near-impossible to explain offense. But the quoted paragraph is one of the best explanations of anything ever posted on these boards.

-RNATB, brown person dressed as a brown person.
  #181  
Old 02-04-2019, 04:36 PM
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The most common form is actually people posting reaction gifs or memes, especially of the "tough black woman giving side-eye" or "black rappers performing for a camera" variety. And, like, that can be fine. But there's definitely a pattern I've started to see where some (white) folks have started using those as their go-to reactions and I can see a very good argument that it contributes a lot to reducing black people to a handful of white-approved characteristics. The parallel to minstrel shows where a few black characteristics were isolated, heightened, and played for laughs by white folks isn't as much of a reach as I originally thought.
Yep - if I never see another "Ain't nobody got time for that!" meme post, it'll be too soon.
  #182  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:07 PM
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You realise a movie with a giant magic snake is not exactly a period piece, right?
Does it need to be to qualify for this bit
of apprently overhyped terminology?

How fictional does a movie need to be before it's not "cultural appropriation"

Especially if you're dealing with the traditional folklore of a culture?

To me it just seemed odd for a minute but no big deal.

Thus is probably another example though where the Arthur stories have such a huge amount of representation that it's no big deal.
Where if we were dealing with a traditional native story doing something like that would be a big nono because it may well be the only exposure people ever get.
  #183  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:15 PM
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As it got mentioned in the OP but mostly dropped in the thread, I want to throw out a few comments about "digital blackface." When people first threw that term around in the past year or so, I thought it was goofy or knee-jerky, but I've started to see it a lot more. The problem is that it's not a very good term for what it describes.

It's not about using a black avatar in a game or using black emojis -- it's about using those things as a way to play with stereotypes. It's not uncommon to see "edgy" white teens playing black avatars in games and using it as an opportunity to do their best impression of "ebonics" or throw around racial slurs.

The most common form is actually people posting reaction gifs or memes, especially of the "tough black woman giving side-eye" or "black rappers performing for a camera" variety. And, like, that can be fine. But there's definitely a pattern I've started to see where some (white) folks have started using those as their go-to reactions and I can see a very good argument that it contributes a lot to reducing black people to a handful of white-approved characteristics. The parallel to minstrel shows where a few black characteristics were isolated, heightened, and played for laughs by white folks isn't as much of a reach as I originally thought.
I rarely if ever use memes but I could see your angle on that.

Are they just generic black people? Or are they like stars known for the exaggerated trait?

And do you mean that some have an overabundance of black go tos for negative traits? Like they just don't even bother to mix it up?
  #184  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:24 PM
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I grew up almost at the same as the Virginia governor. Dressing in costume included darkening the skin for a character like Michael Jackson. It wasn't a concern then.

What was a concern is blackface Minstrel entertainment. They included racial stereotypical humor, exaggerated black facial features and minstrel songs.

This was certainly offensive in 1980 and people my age knew it.

There's no comparison in putting on a MJ costume and singing Billy Jean and a minstrel entertainer like this ...


Everything about this guy is racially exaggerated.

https://goo.gl/images/b4GHAV

Last edited by aceplace57; 02-04-2019 at 05:27 PM.
  #185  
Old 02-04-2019, 05:57 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
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I really have thank monstro here too.
I'm not quite in agreement on some of the ahistorical parts of what he'/ she? said but the vast , vast , vast majority of his points were reasonable, clear explanations including the way to approach it with my son.

That gave me a great way of explaining to him why he can't brown up without making it sound like it's not ok to be black or not ok to idolize a black person or character.
  #186  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:05 PM
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Does it need to be to qualify for this bit
of apprently overhyped terminology?
You were the one who called it a "medeival movies"[sic] which kind of implies a period piece, not the inaccurate-to-history mess that was KALotS.

And yes, in a fantasy piece, anything goes. Not that POC were strangers to medieval Europe, you understand.
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How fictional does a movie need to be before it's not "cultural appropriation"
It wouldn't be "cultural appropriation" even if it claimed to be a recreation of Agincourt with an all-Black cast, because that's not what cultural appropriation is.
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Especially if you're dealing with the traditional folklore of a culture?
The traditional Arthurian romances featured several POC knights, as I've shown.
Quote:
Where if we were dealing with a traditional native story doing something like that would be a big nono because it may well be the only exposure people ever get.
The difference between the two should be screamingly obvious.
  #187  
Old 02-04-2019, 07:32 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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If I were asked to describe anyone, I'd absolutely put their race in there.

MJ is a basketball player, who is tall, bald, black guy with a warm smile.
As opposed to Bruce Willis who is an actor , tall bald, white guy, who's smiles make you uneasy.

And yeah, I guarantee if your asking people if they've seen me...short of a picture whites gonna be in that description.
I was told about ten years ago that such descriptions should be shied away from. I have been in situations where I walk into a room and ask who John Smith is. Someone will point to two people standing together talking, one black and one white, and they will describe John as the taller guy, or the guy with the blue blazer, or the one on the right (no their right) and do everything except to make the obvious distinction of saying the white guy or the black guy, even though that would immediately clarify things.

That's how absurd things have gotten. There is nothing demeaning about describing a person. American Dad lampooned the shit out of this trope in an episode where Stan does everything to try to describe the white girl and finally says that she is the one where if you were handing out sunscreen you would give it to her first.

These "rules" make no sense other than to further the divisions between the races, increase hostility, and to keep those who pretend to be offended in power.
  #188  
Old 02-04-2019, 07:33 PM
monstro monstro is online now
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This is the most compelling, relatable explanation I've read on this subject; thank you. I've always understood why what we usually think of as blackface is abhorrent but I still wasn't quite on board with vilifying people who are using it to portray a particular person- the first thing that came to mind is Julianne Hough as Suzanne from Orange is the New Black. Now I get it. I still think many people are doing or defending it out of honest ignorance but if I can change my view, so possibly can they.

Would you perhaps consider going on tour?
I will go on tour as long as I can go dressed as David Bowie.


Thanks for the compliments, everyone.
  #189  
Old 02-04-2019, 07:37 PM
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Yeah, "disrespect for Michael Jackson" wasn't the problem that people had with that skit. (There is a GD thread about it.)
No, whiteface wasn't the problem Americans had with the skit. It was what Australians felt deserved an apology.
  #190  
Old 02-04-2019, 11:35 PM
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I will go on tour as long as I can go dressed as David Bowie.

Just don't pad your pants because people shouldn't be defined by their physical characteristics.
  #191  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:53 AM
Littleman Littleman is online now
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Not at all. Because there were Black and other POC Knights in period fiction.
Actually, looks like you focused on the word black there
Moorish people were Muslims in Spain and italy not Africans as it would imply in our context.
Palamedes would have been Arab as well.

Actually reminds me of something that really strikes me odd, seems like a lot of the same people who go around quoting Bible verses are the same ones who would have a terrible attitude towards the people they're quoting because they're Arab and all the Bible movies seem to never include an Arab.


As far as the native movie thing goes no i don't see some big objective difference between legend of the sword and if I were to do the legend of Unktomi tanka ( giant magic spider and a brave) with white people or black people instead of natives. Except that Arthurian legends have so much representation that you could do it however the hell you want and nobody is gonna care. Everybody has their own twist and the stories themselves aren't even consistent. So whatever , no need to make up all your own characters to do a fantasy medeival type film.

The only reason I would say doing Unktomi you would want to stick with natives is the lack of representation. I mean there were white braves as far back as 500 years ago but why select the minority there to represent a traditional native story that hardly anyone has heard of.


Though I bear in mind my understanding is pretty much limited to what I've read in this thread and a few blogs as these things go.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-05-2019 at 12:55 AM.
  #192  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:34 AM
BenedictusXIV BenedictusXIV is offline
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My 5 year old is strangely racist.
I had more or less the same thing happen. Strange racist remarks including flat out "I don't like black people".

It was embarrassing and weird, because until then one of his black uncles was his big hero and roll model.
I figured it was something he picked up in school. We live in a very, very white rural area and in general people here aren't too crazy about strangers (my family and I included).
I further ignored it, because that is how I handle most every situation with my kids and it turns out to be a great parenting tool.

By now he is 8 and I think he is over it. May have helped that I put him in another school and that I brought him to the boxing gym where every kid of color from the whole wide area trains.
He's also developing a strange fascination for blues music (strange for his age), which might put things in the proper perspective.
  #193  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:08 AM
BenedictusXIV BenedictusXIV is offline
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I live in the Netherlands and they have a remarkable blackface tradition here surrounding the celebration of St. Nicholas in December. This Santa-type character is assisted not by elves, but by blackface acrobats called "Zwarte Piet" (Black Pete). Since a few years part of the black community is protesting this tradition, which leads to totally incomprehensible discussions in newspapers, television and public debate. Promotors of either side of the debate receive death threats and protestors require police protection. The country seems on the verge of civil war when before Christmas the whole thing dies down and is forgotten about for another year.
I think it is inevitable that they move away from the blackface thing. The local PBS, that appears to be in charge of broadcasting everything related to the event, has already started to introduce White Petes (or actually various gradations ranging from black to white).
It's kind of an interesting spectacle. The outrage with the traditionalists (roughly half the country) is remarkable. I find it hard to believe that these are all racist people. I suspect that they are mostly conservatives who feel threatened by a rapidly changing society and made this their last stand. Come to think of it, this may well be the Dutch border wall. (but let's not go there).
  #194  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:43 AM
monstro monstro is online now
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My Netherlands experience:

In high school, a bunch of us kids did a tour of Europe,and Amsterdam was one of the cities we visited. We were a performing arts school, so naturally we performed (string orchestra and a performing troupe that did singing and dancing numbers). We were based in Atlanta, GA, so a lot of us were melanistic. Being naive teenagers, we didn't know that this made us unusual in any way.

After our performance at the international school in Amsterdam, a little white girl from the school came up to one of us back stage and demanded that she get out of her make-up. At first, we were all very confused. And then she pointed to my schoolmate's skin and we realized she thought she--and no doubt most of us--were wearing brown make-up. My schoolmate's immediate reaction was to clapback at the little girl, which in retrospect wasn't the kindest response. But it was kind of hilarious. We experienced a couple of other "racially weird" incidents while we were there. But I liked Amsterdam other than that.
  #195  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:41 AM
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WOOKINPANUB WOOKINPANUB is offline
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
My Netherlands experience:

In high school, a bunch of us kids did a tour of Europe,and Amsterdam was one of the cities we visited. We were a performing arts school, so naturally we performed (string orchestra and a performing troupe that did singing and dancing numbers). We were based in Atlanta, GA, so a lot of us were melanistic. Being naive teenagers, we didn't know that this made us unusual in any way.

After our performance at the international school in Amsterdam, a little white girl from the school came up to one of us back stage and demanded that she get out of her make-up. At first, we were all very confused. And then she pointed to my schoolmate's skin and we realized she thought she--and no doubt most of us--were wearing brown make-up. My schoolmate's immediate reaction was to clapback at the little girl, which in retrospect wasn't the kindest response. But it was kind of hilarious. We experienced a couple of other "racially weird" incidents while we were there. But I liked Amsterdam other than that.
Oy. She must have been really young or really sheltered

BTW, can we agree that it's acceptable, nay, compulsory, for any persons of any color to put on orange face when dressing as Mr. Trump?
  #196  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:01 AM
Littleman Littleman is online now
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I had more or less the same thing happen. Strange racist remarks including flat out "I don't like black people".

It was embarrassing and weird, because until then one of his black uncles was his big hero and roll model.
I figured it was something he picked up in school. We live in a very, very white rural area and in general people here aren't too crazy about strangers (my family and I included).
I further ignored it, because that is how I handle most every situation with my kids and it turns out to be a great parenting tool.

By now he is 8 and I think he is over it. May have helped that I put him in another school and that I brought him to the boxing gym where every kid of color from the whole wide area trains.
He's also developing a strange fascination for blues music (strange for his age), which might put things in the proper perspective.
I'm glad I'm not the only one.
His brother never did anything like that so we've been puzzling over it.
  #197  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:04 AM
Littleman Littleman is online now
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Oy. She must have been really young or really sheltered

BTW, can we agree that it's acceptable, nay, compulsory, for any persons of any color to put on orange face when dressing as Mr. Trump?
I know I wouldn't care a bit. Though if we're promoting a similar standard, from the responses here it seems like a mask would be the way to go?
  #198  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:11 AM
Littleman Littleman is online now
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My Netherlands experience:

In high school, a bunch of us kids did a tour of Europe,and Amsterdam was one of the cities we visited. We were a performing arts school, so naturally we performed (string orchestra and a performing troupe that did singing and dancing numbers). We were based in Atlanta, GA, so a lot of us were melanistic. Being naive teenagers, we didn't know that this made us unusual in any way.

After our performance at the international school in Amsterdam, a little white girl from the school came up to one of us back stage and demanded that she get out of her make-up. At first, we were all very confused. And then she pointed to my schoolmate's skin and we realized she thought she--and no doubt most of us--were wearing brown make-up. My schoolmate's immediate reaction was to clapback at the little girl, which in retrospect wasn't the kindest response. But it was kind of hilarious. We experienced a couple of other "racially weird" incidents while we were there. But I liked Amsterdam other than that.
I've seen several 2 year olds assume something along those lines the first time they notice a black person up close.

A grocery store clerk once noticed my cousin at about 2 giving her a strange look and knew immediately. She responded by showing her that was her color and invited her to touch her hand saying go ahead, it won't rub off. My cousin did and then was perfectly comfortable.

Kids are really wild.
  #199  
Old 02-05-2019, 08:19 AM
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WOOKINPANUB WOOKINPANUB is offline
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I've seen several 2 year olds assume something along those lines the first time they notice a black person up close.

A grocery store clerk once noticed my cousin at about 2 giving her a strange look and knew immediately. She responded by showing her that was her color and invited her to touch her hand saying go ahead, it won't rub off. My cousin did and then was perfectly comfortable.

Kids are really wild.
When I was a kid, my very blonde best friend's very blonde mother loved to tell the story of said friend referring to the first black man she saw as "a chocolate man". I wasn't sure if my friend was stupid or the mother was a liar. Apologies to both of them, wherever they are.
  #200  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:46 AM
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I think all of the questions, concerns and confusion over blackface makes it abundantly clear that white culture values the color of one's skin much more than anyone is comfortable admitting.


There are people in this thread who seem to imply that they cannot judge a cosplayer by the content of their character until after they have judged them by the color of their skin. If a black person cannot avoid being judged by the color of their skin in a room full of people playing dress up and make believe then what expectation of fairness and equality does the black doctor/lawyer/accountant/engineer ever hope to have in the real world?

It feels like we aren't even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals.
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