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  #201  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:50 AM
BenedictusXIV BenedictusXIV is offline
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It feels like we aren't even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals.
No, pretending is not allowed.
  #202  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:50 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Moorish people were Muslims in Spain and italy not Africans as it would imply in our context.
Where do you think they came from?
  #203  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:00 PM
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Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
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There are people in this thread who seem to imply that they cannot judge a cosplayer by the content of their character until after they have judged them by the color of their skin. If a black person cannot avoid being judged by the color of their skin in a room full of people playing dress up and make believe then what expectation of fairness and equality does the black doctor/lawyer/accountant/engineer ever hope to have in the real world?

It feels like we aren't even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals.

I am just saying that it is silly to try to make the claim that trying to look like someone does not involve trying to look like someone. And I'll believe that cosplay is about "content of character" the moment you show me a photo of someone successfully cosplaying as Spiderman in their street clothes by projecting love for their aunt, guilt about their uncle's death, and worry about having their secret identuty found out. And this isn't black specific--a skinny teenage Japanese girl will always make a more convincing Sailor Moon than a 300 pound 30-year-old white woman no matter how much they love the character and how much time and effort they put into making similar clothes. A tiny, athletic white girl will always make a more convincing Peggy Fleming than a middle-aged Chinese man. A short hairy white guy isn't a convincing Storm and a tall slender black woman isn't a convincing Wolverine. This isn't racism, this is having eyes that function. I have no problem with a black doctor, just as long as the black doctor doesn't think he is pulling off looking like Dougie Houser, MD. by wearing a white coat and name-dropping Vinnie and Wanda.
  #204  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
I think all of the questions, concerns and confusion over blackface makes it abundantly clear that white culture values the color of one's skin much more than anyone is comfortable admitting.


There are people in this thread who seem to imply that they cannot judge a cosplayer by the content of their character until after they have judged them by the color of their skin. If a black person cannot avoid being judged by the color of their skin in a room full of people playing dress up and make believe then what expectation of fairness and equality does the black doctor/lawyer/accountant/engineer ever hope to have in the real world?

It feels like we aren't even allowed to pretend we are seen as equals.
Welcome to the Dope, and might I say, excellent post.
  #205  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:10 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Darren Garrison;21471443And I'll believe that cosplay is about "content of character" the moment you show me a photo of someone successfully cosplaying as Spiderman [I
in their street clothes[/I] by projecting love for their aunt, guilt about their uncle's death, and worry about having their secret identuty found out..
I'll believe that cosplay is about accuracy once dressing up like Superman lets me leap over tall buildings.
  #206  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:30 PM
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I am just saying that it is silly to try to make the claim that trying to look like someone does not involve trying to look like someone. And I'll believe that cosplay is about "content of character" the moment you show me a photo of someone successfully cosplaying as Spiderman in their street clothes by projecting love for their aunt, guilt about their uncle's death, and worry about having their secret identuty found out. And this isn't black specific--a skinny teenage Japanese girl will always make a more convincing Sailor Moon than a 300 pound 30-year-old white woman no matter how much they love the character and how much time and effort they put into making similar clothes. A tiny, athletic white girl will always make a more convincing Peggy Fleming than a middle-aged Chinese man. A short hairy white guy isn't a convincing Storm and a tall slender black woman isn't a convincing Wolverine. This isn't racism, this is having eyes that function. I have no problem with a black doctor, just as long as the black doctor doesn't think he is pulling off looking like Dougie Houser, MD. by wearing a white coat and name-dropping Vinnie and Wanda.
Who cares if the race, gender, or body type match the character? People dress up in cosplay because they find it fun, not to try and trick you into thinking that Ripley is really walking around the convention center. Part of that can also be reinterpreting characters to the performers' own identity or taste. A gender swapped Firefly, or all black ST:TNG? Great, it brings the performers joy, and me, too..

I wish we lived in a world where race and prejudice were such a non-issue that if a white guy wanted to dress as Black Panther he could wear black face, and it would mean nothing more than that he had to spend 30 minutes doing his makeup. We don't live in that world, so, don't do that.
  #207  
Old 02-05-2019, 12:30 PM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
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I think all of the questions, concerns and confusion over blackface makes it abundantly clear that white culture values the color of one's skin much more than anyone is comfortable admitting.
What on earth is "white culture"? I'm not familiar with the concept.
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  #208  
Old 02-05-2019, 01:33 PM
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Welcome to the Dope, and might I say, excellent post.
Thanks!

Looong time lurker, first time Doper so I'm pretty excited to see if I can make a worthwhile contribution
  #209  
Old 02-05-2019, 01:54 PM
BeagleJesus BeagleJesus is offline
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What on earth is "white culture"? I'm not familiar with the concept.
Culture means a lot of different things in a lot of different instances. But instead of going down that semantic rabbit hole I will narrow the focus to say that in this particular instance I am referring to the norms for how white people interact and relate to other people.

You often hear people parrot the MLK quote about we should not be judged by the color of our skin but by the content of our character. All of this confusion over blackface seems to offer concrete proof that at there is a significant number of white people who feel the content of one's character cannot be divorced from the color of one's skin. Not even when you're playing dress up and make believe...

**Disclaimer**
I think cosplay is cool despite me characterizing it as playing dress up make believe.
  #210  
Old 02-05-2019, 02:05 PM
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I dare anyone to go up to Jason Momoa and tell him he didn't play a convincing Aquaman. No blond hair, blue eyes or fair skin and a couple inches taller than the cartoons comics portray Aquaman.
  #211  
Old 02-05-2019, 02:07 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I dare anyone to go up to Jason Momoa and tell him he didn't play a convincing Aquaman. No blond hair, blue eyes or fair skin and a couple inches taller than the cartoons comics portray Aquaman.
I hated that movie, and I still wouldn't do that.

  #212  
Old 02-05-2019, 02:25 PM
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What isn't blackface is Mary Poppins with soot on her face.
  #213  
Old 02-05-2019, 02:32 PM
you with the face you with the face is online now
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I am just saying that it is silly to try to make the claim that trying to look like someone does not involve trying to look like someone.
The definition of cosplay:

"the activity or practice of dressing up as a character from a work of fiction (such as a comic book, video game, or television show)"

Operative words here are "dressing up".
  #214  
Old 02-05-2019, 02:34 PM
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I'll believe that cosplay is about accuracy once dressing up like Superman lets me leap over tall buildings.


"Cape does not allow user to fly".
  #215  
Old 02-05-2019, 02:42 PM
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I dare anyone to go up to Jason Momoa and tell him he didn't play a convincing Aquaman. No blond hair, blue eyes or fair skin and a couple inches taller than the cartoons comics portray Aquaman.
He's actually quite on point to be playing Sub-Mariner, however, which I find confusing since Aquaman is a completely different character--it's like they smooshed the two together at some point. Guess having two guys who talk to fish is kinda overkill.

I was in the SCA back into the '80s and although my primary persona was female and Tudor era I occasionally took on a different persona, which was a male Viking. Nobody batted an eye, which was pretty par for the course in the SCA. I knew people with Japanese personas who were about as not-Asian as it's possible to get, women with male personas and vice versa and black Norsemen. Being an asshole and expecting everyone's gender and skin tones to match their persona was frowned on even then and it's nice to see the rest of America finally catching up. What you look like to others is much less important than what you perceive yourself to be.
  #216  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:12 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Culture means a lot of different things in a lot of different instances. But instead of going down that semantic rabbit hole I will narrow the focus to say that in this particular instance I am referring to the norms for how white people interact and relate to other people.

You often hear people parrot the MLK quote about we should not be judged by the color of our skin but by the content of our character. All of this confusion over blackface seems to offer concrete proof that at there is a significant number of white people who feel the content of one's character cannot be divorced from the color of one's skin. Not even when you're playing dress up and make believe...

**Disclaimer**
I think cosplay is cool despite me characterizing it as playing dress up make believe.
Respectfully, I think you are terribly overestimating what it means to dress up in a costume. If I dress up like John Travolta in Pulp Fiction, I don't need skin makeup. I am white, he is white. That part is good.

If I am Samuel L. Jackson, then I am white, but he and his character are black. I don't look like that. As part of any costume is an attempt to look like the character, I would try (were it not for the fall out) to make my skin look black.

The same way in which if I already had a jerry curl, I wouldn't need to change my hair, but if I was playing Travolta, I would.

None of this has anything to do with character of a person. Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta's characters in Pulp Fiction were both terrible. The dress up part has absolutely nothing to do with black/white, superior/inferior etc.

I'm not sure how it is even remotely related to this thread and is frankly over the top. I can earnestly believe in racial equality yet when playing dress up try to look like the character I am playing. All your position does, as mentioned by Littleman upthread, is that if me and my black friend are doing Pulp Fiction costumes is that he must be Jackson and I must be Travolta. That has real world racial consequences instead of pretend ones.
  #217  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:21 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Respectfully, I think you are terribly overestimating what it means to dress up in a costume. If I dress up like John Travolta in Pulp Fiction, I don't need skin makeup. I am white, he is white. That part is good.
Sure
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If I am Samuel L. Jackson, then I am white, but he and his character are black. I don't look like that. As part of any costume is an attempt to look like the character, I would try (were it not for the fall out) to make my skin look black.
So, being black is the defining characteristic of Samuel L Jackson?
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The same way in which if I already had a jerry curl, I wouldn't need to change my hair, but if I was playing Travolta, I would.

None of this has anything to do with character of a person. Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta's characters in Pulp Fiction were both terrible. The dress up part has absolutely nothing to do with black/white, superior/inferior etc.

I'm not sure how it is even remotely related to this thread and is frankly over the top. I can earnestly believe in racial equality yet when playing dress up try to look like the character I am playing. All your position does, as mentioned by Littleman upthread, is that if me and my black friend are doing Pulp Fiction costumes is that he must be Jackson and I must be Travolta. That has real world racial consequences instead of pretend ones.
You have that entirely backwards. BeagleJesus explicitly said that it is fine that you be Jackson, and your friend be Travolta, no makeup necessary. And, that is also what everyone else in this thread has been telling you, BeagleJesus just articulated it better than anyone else had.

It is you, getting hung up on "inaccurate" skin color that would be why you must be travolta. And getting hung up on skin color absolutely has real world racial consequences rather than pretend one.
  #218  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:25 PM
enalzi enalzi is offline
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Respectfully, I think you are terribly overestimating what it means to dress up in a costume. If I dress up like John Travolta in Pulp Fiction, I don't need skin makeup. I am white, he is white. That part is good.

If I am Samuel L. Jackson, then I am white, but he and his character are black. I don't look like that. As part of any costume is an attempt to look like the character, I would try (were it not for the fall out) to make my skin look black.

The same way in which if I already had a jerry curl, I wouldn't need to change my hair, but if I was playing Travolta, I would.

None of this has anything to do with character of a person. Samuel L. Jackson and John Travolta's characters in Pulp Fiction were both terrible. The dress up part has absolutely nothing to do with black/white, superior/inferior etc.

I'm not sure how it is even remotely related to this thread and is frankly over the top. I can earnestly believe in racial equality yet when playing dress up try to look like the character I am playing. All your position does, as mentioned by Littleman upthread, is that if me and my black friend are doing Pulp Fiction costumes is that he must be Jackson and I must be Travolta. That has real world racial consequences instead of pretend ones.
Jules and Vincent both have very distinctive hairstyles/facial hair. It's pretty clear which is which, regardless of skin color. If all you're doing is putting on a suit and being white, you won't look like Vincent, you'll look like a white guy in a suit.
  #219  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:33 PM
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When I was a kid, my very blonde best friend's very blonde mother loved to tell the story of said friend referring to the first black man she saw as "a chocolate man". I wasn't sure if my friend was stupid or the mother was a liar. Apologies to both of them, wherever they are.
How old was she at the time? If she was a little kid, it's a perfectly fine description.
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  #220  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:49 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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So, being black is the defining characteristic of Samuel L Jackson?


You have that entirely backwards. BeagleJesus explicitly said that it is fine that you be Jackson, and your friend be Travolta, no makeup necessary. And, that is also what everyone else in this thread has been telling you, BeagleJesus just articulated it better than anyone else had.

It is you, getting hung up on "inaccurate" skin color that would be why you must be travolta. And getting hung up on skin color absolutely has real world racial consequences rather than pretend one.
No! It is "a" part of the physical characteristic of Jackson. It does not define him anymore than Travolta's whiteness defines him. The suit, the gun, the murder likewise do not define Jackson nor Travolta. If I am white and dressing up as Jackson, in order to look like him, my skin should look black. Nothing nefarious behind that.

Sure, my black friend could be Travolta and I could be Jackson with no skin makeup and the world would not end, but what's wrong with a few laughs if he puts on white makeup and I put on black makeup? Which race are we offending?

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Jules and Vincent both have very distinctive hairstyles/facial hair. It's pretty clear which is which, regardless of skin color. If all you're doing is putting on a suit and being white, you won't look like Vincent, you'll look like a white guy in a suit.
This has been brought up before. Most costumes are ridiculous. You and monstro seem to be suggesting that only if the costumes are done well are they okay. I know that is not what you are suggesting, but I don't understand the grand picture here of why, because the costumes won't be perfect anyways, that skin color now becomes off limits.
  #221  
Old 02-05-2019, 04:55 PM
enalzi enalzi is offline
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Let's just simplify it because you'll never get it anyway.

Just don't change your skin color to look like another race. This is not some great injustice to you. Just don't do it. End of story.
  #222  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:03 PM
UltraVires UltraVires is offline
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Let's just simplify it because you'll never get it anyway.

Just don't change your skin color to look like another race. This is not some great injustice to you. Just don't do it. End of story.
That is a powerful, logical argument. How about this:

I will. End of story.

Do I now win because I made a bald assertion?
  #223  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:03 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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No! It is "a" part of the physical characteristic of Jackson. It does not define him anymore than Travolta's whiteness defines him. The suit, the gun, the murder likewise do not define Jackson nor Travolta. If I am white and dressing up as Jackson, in order to look like him, my skin should look black. Nothing nefarious behind that.
Except also nothing necessary about that, and given the history and culture that you are at least *now* aware of, then you can understand why someone would think it io be nefarious, and knowing why someone would think it to be nefarious, going on and doing it anyway is *being* nefarious. (Or trolling, take your pick.)

The suit, gun, and murder do not define the actors, but they do define the characters taht they play.

Speaking of "accuracy" they are both 6'2". Why have you not defined them in terms of their height? If you are a couple inches short, will you only be able to play characters played by Nicholas Cage? Even shorter and you are limited to Tom Cruise characters?
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Sure, my black friend could be Travolta and I could be Jackson with no skin makeup and the world would not end, but what's wrong with a few laughs if he puts on white makeup and I put on black makeup? Which race are we offending?
It has been explained as to why altering the color of your skin for "a few laughs" is not a laughing matter to many.

Who would you be offending? Well, you are directly disrespecting people with dark skin, as you know the history and reasons that altering skin tone for "laughs" has been used specifically for harmful and oppressive purposes, so you would be offending anyone who is aware of the history of racism and blackface, and is not an advocate of it.
Quote:

This has been brought up before. Most costumes are ridiculous. You and monstro seem to be suggesting that only if the costumes are done well are they okay. I know that is not what you are suggesting, but I don't understand the grand picture here of why, because the costumes won't be perfect anyways, that skin color now becomes off limits.
That does seem to be the exact opposite of what enalzi and monstro is saying. that costumes are made for the enjoyment of the person wearing the costume, not to reach some arbitrary threshold of "okay". If you are entering a costume contest, then better than "okay" may be necessary if you want to win, but there is no cosplay convention that would ever consider a mismatch of skin tone to be a mark against the work someone put into making a costume.*

*ETA: unless you are cosplaying Piccolo.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-05-2019 at 05:05 PM.
  #224  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:07 PM
enalzi enalzi is offline
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That is a powerful, logical argument. How about this:

I will. End of story.

Do I now win because I made a bald assertion?
As long as you're fine with everyone thinking you're a terrible person, then yes you win.
  #225  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:24 PM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
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Culture means a lot of different things in a lot of different instances. But instead of going down that semantic rabbit hole I will narrow the focus to say that in this particular instance I am referring to the norms for how white people interact and relate to other people.
"norms"?

Which "white people"? interacting with which "other people"? neither of them will be a homogeneous mass of identikit behaviours and characteristics. You might want to reconsider your reasons for being not willing to, or able to, clarify what you mean.

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All of this confusion over blackface seems to offer concrete proof that at there is a significant number of white people who feel the content of one's character cannot be divorced from the color of one's skin.
Really? concrete proof? nothing in this thread leads me to conclude any such thing, nor should it do for you because at the very core is the fact that you are only going to get a self-selecting response in here and that's a very poor basis on which to judge a complete ethnic group.

If it helps give you a clearer data-point, let me state for the record that a person's skin colour can and is divorced from their character.
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  #226  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:35 PM
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Respectfully, I think you are terribly overestimating what it means to dress up in a costume.
I have stated several times that I think dressing up in a costume is playing dress up and make believe. A fun little activity for the imagination if you will.

IMHO the fact that you feel you canít achieve proper character immersion without altering your skin tone (to match the race of your chosen persona) says a lot about how important the color of a personís skin is to your world view. As a black person who enjoyís ALL the nerdy shit, if I want to dream about being one of my favorite characters should I only stick to black characters? If I want to pretend to be Superman do I have to pretend to be a white guy too?
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Old 02-05-2019, 05:41 PM
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Except also nothing necessary about that, and given the history and culture that you are at least *now* aware of, then you can understand why someone would think it io be nefarious, and knowing why someone would think it to be nefarious, going on and doing it anyway is *being* nefarious. (Or trolling, take your pick.)
Your justification, and your accusation of trolling, is that in response to my question of why it is bad is the recirculation of the argument that it is bad. Is it "necessary"? Of course not. Costumes are not necessary either? Since when is absolute necessity the standard for anything?

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Speaking of "accuracy" they are both 6'2". Why have you not defined them in terms of their height? If you are a couple inches short, will you only be able to play characters played by Nicholas Cage? Even shorter and you are limited to Tom Cruise characters?
I suppose that before an informal party, I could order a medieval rack and have it installed in my garage and torture myself for a few weeks before the party, but that is probably a bit extreme. A few dabs of makeup? Not so much.

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It has been explained as to why altering the color of your skin for "a few laughs" is not a laughing matter to many.

Who would you be offending? Well, you are directly disrespecting people with dark skin, as you know the history and reasons that altering skin tone for "laughs" has been used specifically for harmful and oppressive purposes, so you would be offending anyone who is aware of the history of racism and blackface, and is not an advocate of it.
Again, you are just recycling the arguments. Because people several decades ago used a ridiculous costume makeup to intentionally make fun of black people and perpetuate the stereotypes, that means that some unelected minority of a minority can dictate that no makeup with regards to skin color can now be used is ridiculous to me.

This isn't about a personal belief, it is about telling others what they can and cannot do and restrict their actions. Where does it stop and what are the standards? If there is no logical explanation for this "being offended" forthcoming, then personally, I don't accept it.

Point out a tangible harm, and I will of course listen to it. I will not atone for the sins of my ancestors by hopping left and right every time some new fad is imposed upon me by those people who claim to be offended. Give me the logical explanation, not a reason you would treat a child in a certain way. If we are going to get along in modern society, we cannot keep making demands on one another.

These fucking millennials have never seen a blackface performance except on YouTube and yet they are "offended" by costumes. Fuck off with that nonsense. I don't control your life and you don't control mine. Give me a good reason why you are offended by my conduct and I will stop immediately; but I am not going to listen every 10 years as to why my ancestors' conduct is now viewed in a new light and more importantly how I must correct it.
  #228  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:44 PM
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Give me a good reason why you are offended by my conduct and I will stop immediately;
No you won't because you will never accept a reason as valid. This whole exercise is pointless.
  #229  
Old 02-05-2019, 05:55 PM
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"norms"?

Which "white people"? interacting with which "other people"? neither of them will be a homogeneous mass of identikit behaviours and characteristics. You might want to reconsider your reasons for being not willing to, or able to, clarify what you mean.

Really? concrete proof? nothing in this thread leads me to conclude any such thing, nor should it do for you because at the very core is the fact that you are only going to get a self-selecting response in here and that's a very poor basis on which to judge a complete ethnic group.

If it helps give you a clearer data-point, let me state for the record that a person's skin colour can and is divorced from their character.
Which white people? The ones who think blackface is acceptable.
Interacting with which other people? All other people.
Iím not judging an entire ethnic group. Iím judging people who think blackface is acceptable. Sorry, I thought the answers to those questions were self evident and did not require clarification.

And yes, I believe that if you think that blackface is acceptable and/or that you must match skin tone in order to cosplay a character then you place a large value on the color of a personís skin.
  #230  
Old 02-05-2019, 06:16 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Your justification, and your accusation of trolling, is that in response to my question of why it is bad is the recirculation of the argument that it is bad.
It is a repeating, over and over, as to why, for historical and contemporary reasons, people will find it offensive if you make the decision to alter your skin tone to that of another ethnic group. It is not you that I accuse of trolling, it is the person that knows that they will offend wby wearing blackface, but does it anyway.
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Is it "necessary"? Of course not. Costumes are not necessary either? Since when is absolute necessity the standard for anything?
When you have competing interests. If you are Mr. Jackson's stunt double, then it would be necessary for you to be as accurate in verisimilitude as possible.

If it is not necessary, then you have no compelling need to do it. And if there is no compelling need to do it, and if it is something that may offend, then why do it?
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I suppose that before an informal party, I could order a medieval rack and have it installed in my garage and torture myself for a few weeks before the party, but that is probably a bit extreme. A few dabs of makeup? Not so much.
So, accuracy is not important to you.
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Again, you are just recycling the arguments. Because people several decades ago used a ridiculous costume makeup to intentionally make fun of black people and perpetuate the stereotypes, that means that some unelected minority of a minority can dictate that no makeup with regards to skin color can now be used is ridiculous to me.
Repeating, not recycling, and this will be the last time, because no matter how many times it has been repeated, in many ways, you have every time ignored the words actually used, and made up your own argument to rail against.

Yes, part of the reason for not trying to make yourself look like a different ethnic group is because that is something that we have a history with, where it was used for the specific purpose of mocking those ethnic groups. It is a very hard line to try to take to try to imitate without mocking, and it is probably best to just stay away from that line, as there is no actual bright line, and you will offend some people no matter how respectful you try to be.

As well, you will be giving cover for those who have no desire to be respectful.
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This isn't about a personal belief, it is about telling others what they can and cannot do and restrict their actions. Where does it stop and what are the standards? If there is no logical explanation for this "being offended" forthcoming, then personally, I don't accept it.
No, it is not telling people what they can and cannot do, it is just explain that there are somethings you can do that will piss people off. You can walk down the street screaming at the top of your lungs all the expletives your little heart desires, but I would not recommend it.

You can wear skin darkening makeup as part of your costume, if that is what you desire, but, also, I would not recommend it.
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Point out a tangible harm, and I will of course listen to it. I will not atone for the sins of my ancestors by hopping left and right every time some new fad is imposed upon me by those people who claim to be offended. Give me the logical explanation, not a reason you would treat a child in a certain way. If we are going to get along in modern society, we cannot keep making demands on one another.
Then don't. No one asked you to atone for the sins of your ancestors.

We're just saying that if you emulate the sins of your ancestors, you may be judged similar.
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These fucking millennials have never seen a blackface performance except on YouTube and yet they are "offended" by costumes. Fuck off with that nonsense. I don't control your life and you don't control mine. Give me a good reason why you are offended by my conduct and I will stop immediately; but I am not going to listen every 10 years as to why my ancestors' conduct is now viewed in a new light and more importantly how I must correct it.
Black face has been offensive long before millennials were a gleam in their parent's eye.
  #231  
Old 02-05-2019, 06:36 PM
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Actually, looks like you focused on the word black there
Moorish people were Muslims in Spain and italy not Africans as it would imply in our context.
Palamedes would have been Arab as well.
Some Moors were indeed Black Africans (they were all Africans in any case) - the Sahara wasn't some Great Wall preventing Africans from travelling North - but that's irrelevant. I also said POC.

Sir Morien is the one I'd call Black - because that's how he's described:
there came riding towards them a knight on a goodly steed, and well armed withal. He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth.
  #232  
Old 02-05-2019, 06:45 PM
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I am not talking about "blackface" yet the responses seem to suggest I am.
  #233  
Old 02-05-2019, 06:53 PM
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Except also nothing necessary about that, and given the history and culture that you are at least *now* aware of, then you can understand why someone would think it io be nefarious, and knowing why someone would think it to be nefarious, going on and doing it anyway is *being* nefarious. (Or trolling, take your pick.)

The suit, gun, and murder do not define the actors, but they do define the characters taht they play.

Speaking of "accuracy" they are both 6'2". Why have you not defined them in terms of their height? If you are a couple inches short, will you only be able to play characters played by Nicholas Cage? Even shorter and you are limited to Tom Cruise characters?

It has been explained as to why altering the color of your skin for "a few laughs" is not a laughing matter to many.

Who would you be offending? Well, you are directly disrespecting people with dark skin, as you know the history and reasons that altering skin tone for "laughs" has been used specifically for harmful and oppressive purposes, so you would be offending anyone who is aware of the history of racism and blackface, and is not an advocate of it.


That does seem to be the exact opposite of what enalzi and monstro is saying. that costumes are made for the enjoyment of the person wearing the costume, not to reach some arbitrary threshold of "okay". If you are entering a costume contest, then better than "okay" may be necessary if you want to win, but there is no cosplay convention that would ever consider a mismatch of skin tone to be a mark against the work someone put into making a costume.*

*ETA: unless you are cosplaying Piccolo.
Maybe not conciously or purposely but looking through winners it's awfully hard to find a winning white Blade or Jax, pretty easy to find winning black Blades and Jax.

If your just having fun I guess who cares, but if you're trying to win, people do seem to take into account how much you look like your character.

For me ,my 10yr old has seen his mother painted every color of the rainbow just about, with nothing tainting his thoughts against it, he thought it would be.just fine to be painted to look like any of his favorite characters.

He draws much less distinction between avatar and agent J.

I'm certain he thinks he needs every other entrapment of a character much more and is usually satisfied just saying I'm so and so
But he does have eyeballs and knows how he can look more like a character.

It's basically a moot point in practical terms but ....is what it is.


There are such a myriad of characters that really in any given circumstance everyone here has valid points.


Originally, I was really trying to draw a line since it seemed like anything and everything could be interpreted poorly.

If anything it seems like by and large people are far more reasonable than I was led to believe.
  #234  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:06 PM
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Some Moors were indeed Black Africans (they were all Africans in any case) - the Sahara wasn't some Great Wall preventing Africans from travelling North - but that's irrelevant. I also said POC.

Sir Morien is the one I'd call Black - because that's how he's described:
there came riding towards them a knight on a goodly steed, and well armed withal. He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth.
Oh ok.
Well , then I guess its just something you don't see often.
It was the first I'd seen a bunch of black people in chainmale on anything that i remember.

The whole knight thing seems pretty heavily European.
  #235  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:10 PM
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It is a repeating, over and over, as to why, for historical and contemporary reasons, people will find it offensive if you make the decision to alter your skin tone to that of another ethnic group. It is not you that I accuse of trolling, it is the person that knows that they will offend wby wearing blackface, but does it anyway.

When you have competing interests. If you are Mr. Jackson's stunt double, then it would be necessary for you to be as accurate in verisimilitude as possible.

If it is not necessary, then you have no compelling need to do it. And if there is no compelling need to do it, and if it is something that may offend, then why do it?

So, accuracy is not important to you.

Repeating, not recycling, and this will be the last time, because no matter how many times it has been repeated, in many ways, you have every time ignored the words actually used, and made up your own argument to rail against.

Yes, part of the reason for not trying to make yourself look like a different ethnic group is because that is something that we have a history with, where it was used for the specific purpose of mocking those ethnic groups. It is a very hard line to try to take to try to imitate without mocking, and it is probably best to just stay away from that line, as there is no actual bright line, and you will offend some people no matter how respectful you try to be.

As well, you will be giving cover for those who have no desire to be respectful.

No, it is not telling people what they can and cannot do, it is just explain that there are somethings you can do that will piss people off. You can walk down the street screaming at the top of your lungs all the expletives your little heart desires, but I would not recommend it.

You can wear skin darkening makeup as part of your costume, if that is what you desire, but, also, I would not recommend it.

Then don't. No one asked you to atone for the sins of your ancestors.

We're just saying that if you emulate the sins of your ancestors, you may be judged similar.


Black face has been offensive long before millennials were a gleam in their parent's eye.
Btw I also read an article that despite 96 percent of stuntworkers being white because it's just not a commonly chosen profession for black people, there is still strong arguments that painting a stunt double is offensive, and takes work away from black people.
  #236  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:23 PM
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The somebody in street clothes portraying Spiderman comment was a hilarious idea that does illustrate the point of strictly portraying a character by their essence probably isn't gonna work too well unless you're a kid on the playground with no costumes available.

I think we all agree skin tone change is almost never necessary to portray a character but arguing it wouldn't contribute to easy identification in many cases does seem ridiculous.

I'd wager it does cause a lot of people to just pick a different character.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-05-2019 at 07:26 PM.
  #237  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:22 PM
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It was the first I'd seen a bunch of black people in chainmale on anything that i remember.
It's just "mail", the "chain" is redundant. And just because you'd never seen it, doesn't mean it never happened - not just in Moorish Spain, but elsewhere too.

Next you'll be telling me there weren't Black Roman legionaries...
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The whole knight thing seems pretty heavily European.
..and European only and always means White, is what you're saying.

Even though I'm telling you that the medieval Knights themselves delighted in stories featuring Black and other POC Knights. They didn't seem to have a problem with it.
  #238  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:39 PM
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Nobody does.....that's the point.
Unless you reverse it.....then it's some big media spread outrage.
  #239  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:47 PM
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There were white slaves too, doesn't mean reproducing roots with an all white cast would just be cool, but you know, if it struck someone as odd because it wasn't a major thing that would just be ridiculous.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-05-2019 at 10:50 PM.
  #240  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:52 PM
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There were white slaves too,
Aaah, I was right, this is one of those threads. OK, done here.
  #241  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:01 PM
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Or for that matter , why not do it with native Americans, lots of native slaves. I would guess I wouldn't fly too well, and a lot if people would be a little surprised too
  #242  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:04 PM
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My guess is bc it's just not the majority of the group.

There's a lot if inconsistentcy in what I see, but this is the only way I can explain it.
  #243  
Old 02-05-2019, 11:32 PM
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Show me where I got it wrong, not like you haven't done that already before.
  #244  
Old 02-06-2019, 02:31 AM
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I will go on tour as long as I can go dressed as David Bowie.

I'd pay to see that
  #245  
Old 02-06-2019, 06:04 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
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Which white people? The ones who think blackface is acceptable.
Interacting with which other people? All other people.
That's doesn't make the "white culture" any clearer at all.

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Iím not judging an entire ethnic group.
when you use the phrase "white culture" in such a broad-brush manner it certainly sounds like you are. You still haven't defined what you mean by "white culture"
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Iím judging people who think blackface is acceptable.
If you bundle all skin tone changes under the banner of "blackface" and consider "blackface" to be a terrible thing regardless of context and intent then sure, you can make that statement becuase you've defined the offence into existence.
What's more it allows you to accuse anyone with a more nuanced view of racism or similar malice. That's handy for you, no analysis required.

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Sorry, I thought the answers to those questions were self evident and did not require clarification.
Absolutely not self-evident at all.

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And yes, I believe that if you think that blackface is acceptable and/or that you must match skin tone in order to cosplay a character then you place a large value on the color of a personís skin.
If I asked you to transform yourself into an accurate portrayal of real-world or fantasy characters I suspect you would place "value" on pretty much every aspect of them if you were seeking to be accurate. I see no reason why the average person would place greater "value" on skin tone over the "value" of hair or costume or build or accent or mannerisms.

Here's Harry Enfield as Nelson Mandela

Racist? not racist? acceptable to you? not acceptable to you?
  #246  
Old 02-06-2019, 07:44 AM
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That's doesn't make the "white culture" any clearer at all.

when you use the phrase "white culture" in such a broad-brush manner it certainly sounds like you are. You still haven't defined what you mean by "white culture"
If you bundle all skin tone changes under the banner of "blackface" and consider "blackface" to be a terrible thing regardless of context and intent then sure, you can make that statement becuase you've defined the offence into existence.
What's more it allows you to accuse anyone with a more nuanced view of racism or similar malice. That's handy for you, no analysis required.

Absolutely not self-evident at all.

If I asked you to transform yourself into an accurate portrayal of real-world or fantasy characters I suspect you would place "value" on pretty much every aspect of them if you were seeking to be accurate. I see no reason why the average person would place greater "value" on skin tone over the "value" of hair or costume or build or accent or mannerisms.

Here's Harry Enfield as Nelson Mandela

Racist? not racist? acceptable to you? not acceptable to you?
It occurred to me that outside of probably a rare few people who just aren't bright and likely aren't even present here. Failure to see something objectively is usually because of strong feelings on the matter.

Which would make it likely that if someone says "if you're trying to look like someone and you don't ignore their skin tone you have some kind of problem" which is logically nonsense, it's probably because of their feelings. Basically evidence that they are in fact offended by it and that the root is feelings, not logic. No matter how much they argue the contrary.
  #247  
Old 02-06-2019, 08:57 AM
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Which would make it likely that if someone says "if you're trying to look like someone and you don't ignore their skin tone you have some kind of problem" which is logically nonsense, it's probably because of their feelings.
It's not logically nonsense. The point is that if you can successfully capture a character or celebrity's essence without slathering ugly paint on your face, then you're going to look stupid and awkward when you choose to slather ugly paint on your face.

The most successful costumes, IMO, are those that tell you exactly whom is being impersonated with the least amount of fluff. Skin color is "fluff", unless you're dressing up as a fictional being like Shrek.

And maybe it's just me, but I much rather go to a costume party where people feel clever and liberated enough to go as characters they look nothing like naturally, than to go to one where everyone sticks with characters they most closely resemble. A tall Asian guy dressed as Mini Me, a curvy white woman dressed like President Camancho, and monstro dressed like David Bowie are going to be infinitely more interesting to see than a bald white guy rather predictably dressed like Mr. Clean.

Last edited by you with the face; 02-06-2019 at 08:57 AM.
  #248  
Old 02-06-2019, 09:17 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
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The point is that if you can successfully capture a character or celebrity's essence without slathering ugly paint on your face, then you're going to look stupid and awkward when you choose to slather ugly paint on your face.
You seem to be assuming that paint on your face is inherently "ugly" and that one way is in some way "better" than the other.
You are free to dislike how a person dresses themselves but your "ugly" "stupid" "awkward" opinion is merely that. Not everyone thinks or reacts that way.

Sure, it could be done badly and with malice but equally it could be done to excellent artistic or comedic effect and with the most benign intentions. I think I'll just judge each case on its own merits.
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  #249  
Old 02-06-2019, 09:20 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Here's the thing. We do not have weekly or even monthly meetings of the Social Justice Warriors league. We do not sit around and decide what terms or phrases to be offended by, we do not determine when it is appropriate to use makeup to alter skin tone. No matter what you do, even if you manage to convince everyone in this thread that there is never anything to be offended by, that isn't going to change the fact that there are still a couple few million people out there who are not part of this conversation.

You seem to complain that there are people who will judge you by the actions that you choose to do in public. Well, complain all you want, they aren't going anywhere.

What we are trying to give is advice, on what will offend, and some reasons as to why that would be. You can criticize this advice, you can complain that this advice makes it unfair for you and your dreams of cosplaying a black character, but that won't change the fact that the advice is sound, if you don't want to receive flak for how you decide to present yourself.

Then the goalposts are moved, not from what I can agree is offensive and shows bad judgement, to what you read some person out there with a blog said once, and you demand that we justify what you remember that one guy said.

If you wear blackface, I will not be personally offended. It is not mocking me or my ethnicity or culture. But I see that it does, and that it shows poor judgment to do so. If you are criticized, then it's not like you were not aware that you would be.

You may as well complain that water is wet and winter is cold, and be upset that we advise you to put on a jacket if you are going out. We are not trying to restrict your freedom of clothing choice, you are welcome to wear shorts and a t-shirt out into the blizzard, but you should be aware that there may be consequences.

Now, as far as those consequences, we can give you some advice on how many people that you will piss off. If you wear stereotypical blackface makeup with the lips and do some mocking singing and dancing, you are going to piss off pretty much everybody. If you wear a wig that is not of your ethnicity, there may be somebody out there that chooses to bring attention to themself by criticizing you. Then there is everything in between, and it is a judgement call. Most people were okay with Tropic Thunder, but I am aware that there are those who were not, even some who have boycotted Downey Jr for it.

the thing is, is that it is a judgement call. Not matter how you do it and how respectful you are, there will be some who are offended. Depending on how sincere your reasons are, and how respectfully you do it, you may offend more or less. However, if you have difficulty even understanding why such things would be offensive, then you are demonstrating a lack of that capacity for judgement, and it is best you just stay away from it all together.
  #250  
Old 02-06-2019, 09:47 AM
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The idea that Sailor Moon is better played by an Asian girl, when the character has long blonde hair and blue eyes, is interesting. Granted, she's not 300 pounds, but I see a lot more slender and gorgeous Sailor Moons than the 300+ sized ladies at cons anyway, despite reputation and people posting photos to make fun of on the internet. I'd probably say I see as many "crossplay" (gender swap) Sailors as very plus-sized sailors.

That said, I mostly go to comic and anime cons, not sci-fi. The brown-painted Geordi was kind of scary looking, but I do have to admit he didn't look like he was trying to be racist at all. In that case, maybe it can just be described as a terrible, terrible idea all by itself. I'd note the Data with him doesn't really look much better... even if there's a smaller reason to cringe at that. I'm glad they wanted to try, but I think Geordi is going to be obvious just from the visor and the costume; how many people with that visor were in Star Trek? If Geordi's alone in wearing a visor, that is more distinctive by far than his darker skin.

I do think it's a little sad that a white little boy who grew up loving Black Panther (surely there are some?) may have trouble doing that costume... but the odds he doesn't also love Spider-Man or Wolverine or Superman or someone else who is white are pretty small. There are just so many white-appearing characters available, and yeah, even in foreign produced works where you'd think everyone should be Asian.

So while that one Black Panther loving fan may be a little unfortunate, he has a lot of options. The black fan who loves Batman has fewer options, even if he's just looking for well-known black characters within the whole Batman mythos. It seems fair he should get a chance to be Batman if he wants to, given that most of the big name heroes are white anyway. And the white fan who wants to be Black Panther has a lot, a LOT of other options.
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