Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #351  
Old 02-07-2019, 07:13 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar Laura View Post
I keep thinking about that guy whose Geordi costume included brown facepaint. Initially, the cosplay effort seemed at once so inept and sincere that I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt; he pretty much looked about as good as his friend, "Data," he just had an extra reason to wince because of historical issues. But he didn't mean any harm.

Except that guy didn't just teleport into that costume and in front of that camera in a moment. He didn't get stung by a bee, then swerve his car accidentally into the makeup. As bad as the efforts were (no, colored contacts are not impressive as cosplay goes; many cons have a dealer room booth or two that sell them) they had to take time, spend money, meet people and interact with others as they put together the pieces of their cosplay, planned it, and eventually arrived and wandered through the con to be photographed.

I really find it hard to imagine that he never, at any point, had anyone point out to him the reasons not to put on that makeup. I find it regrettable that he apparently just wandered through a convention like that. But I think he had to know by the time he was in the costume and in the convention center, and maybe just decided, "Their reasons for saying this is offensive aren't good enough, I'm willing to offend people if I get to dress like this."
Still, I wouldn't call it a scenario where the guy is obviously racist.

People do much more clueless stuff all the time. Like the fat guy in Spiderman PJs you mentioned, you would think that at some point someone told him it wasn't a good look, you would think he'd never make it into public that way and yet he did.
  #352  
Old 02-07-2019, 07:25 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
I don't have any major problem with the rest of what you wrote, but this conclusion you draw seems like you (and others) are petulantly and deliberately still missing the point.

White people can dress up as African American characters/celebrities. Just put on the right clothes, with the right style and affectations and viola, man. You too can be President Camancho. Or Tina Turner's character from Beyond the Thunder Dome. Or Mr. T.

What's wrong is to assume you can't go as a black character unless you either share or can copy their skin tone. Do you agree with this? This seems like something everyone should be able to agree on. I don't understand the idea that unless you are allowed to paint your skin without raising an eyebrow, then you might as well not even bother dressing up as Giordi or whomever. It's that attitude that conveys a inordinate fixation with skin color that actually does look a lot like a racial hang up.
Mr. T seems to me like someone would take offense and maybe Camacho too.

Big gold chains, gold teeth, seems like you could easily be taken as portraying a stereotype.

This is where it's still very murky for me, and why I'd have to at least partly agree with Corey El . I can easily see someone being offended at mrT or Snoop or whatever rapper.

Giordi is pretty safe.

Agent J seems impossible on sight, but people are still gonna easily say MIB so whatever.
  #353  
Old 02-07-2019, 08:24 PM
you with the face you with the face is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Mr. T seems to me like someone would take offense and maybe Camacho too.

Big gold chains, gold teeth, seems like you could easily be taken as portraying a stereotype.
Please note Camacho didnít have gold chains and neither he nor Mr. T had gold teeth.

So yeah, if you donít know these characters well and assume they map to black stereotypes just because they are black and your costume reflects this ignorant assumption, then I wholeheartedly agree that you shouldnít cosplay as them.
  #354  
Old 02-07-2019, 08:43 PM
SmartAleq's Avatar
SmartAleq SmartAleq is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: PDXLNT
Posts: 4,928
Yeah, I'll just leave this right here.
  #355  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:22 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 9,502
And now, presenting shirtface.
  #356  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:23 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Please note Camacho didnít have gold chains and neither he nor Mr. T had gold teeth.

So yeah, if you donít know these characters well and assume they map to black stereotypes just because they are black and your costume reflects this ignorant assumption, then I wholeheartedly agree that you shouldnít cosplay as them.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2513/3...0ff40e22_b.jpg
  #357  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:31 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Guess you don't know em either.
Anyway if I was gonna do Camacho id reference the picture.

Mr t I'd have no interest.
  #358  
Old 02-07-2019, 09:56 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Camacho in my mind is a parody of like Randy Savage and Hulk Hogan which is why I said maybe, I often get things mixed up.

Mr T I never really understood what made him an icon.....
  #359  
Old 02-07-2019, 10:08 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 9,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Mr T I never really understood what made him an icon.....

People were inspired by his sympathy for the mentally challenged.
  #360  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:50 PM
SmartAleq's Avatar
SmartAleq SmartAleq is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: PDXLNT
Posts: 4,928
Noice.
  #361  
Old 02-08-2019, 02:36 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by typoink View Post
If you prefer a slightly closer analogy, I'll allow that the fellow in our hypothetical is wearing a shirt with an orthogonal, not diagonal, swastika. See? It's a swastika lite. It absolutely has an alternate meaning (even if uncommon), and isn't IDENTICAL to the famously racist symbol. Is it now acceptable when he says, "Hey, I just like this symbol?"

If not, what is your response to him?
I still don't see it as a good equivalent analogy. The swastika you mention is part of various ethnic decorative traditions and if I saw it used as part of an ethnic wedding outfit say, even if worn by someone not of that culture, I'd have no issues. The context is crucial. If worn as part of an overall cultural costume in a context that backs up an implied threat (as you put forward) then I'd probably be very suspicious of their motives.The meaning of the swastika is entirely dependent on the context in which it appears, as is a blackened face. Some people think their own experience of it confers an objective reality to it and that it can only be interpreted in one way. I don't think it does.

Just like the naming of your child "Swastika" that must be wrong in all cases surely? No-one can be that ignorant of history. Well...no, that's not the case at all.
The people of Austria would be horrified and probably make it illegal but it doesn't mean that it is always wrong to do so. They also outlaw the use of the swastika in general which I think gives it a power that is utterly undeserved but if an Austrian were to comment on its use in the rest of the world I'd be putting forward a similar argument to them that I use against the blanket condemnation of darkening people's faces for legitimate reasons.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #362  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:07 AM
you with the face you with the face is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Guess you don't know em either.
Anyway if I was gonna do Camacho id reference the picture.

Mr t I'd have no interest.
One chain (not chains) and as a signifier of his character, itís non-essential since he didnít always wear it.
  #363  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:52 AM
DPRK DPRK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 2,662
I know someone who hits the UV tanning booths before public appearances.
  #364  
Old 02-08-2019, 06:30 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPRK View Post
I know someone who hits the UV tanning booths before public appearances.
And I think that colouration is absolutely necessary for his role as a Tiny-Fingered, Cheeto-Faced, Ferret-Wearing Shitgibbon.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #365  
Old 02-08-2019, 07:37 AM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
One chain (not chains) and as a signifier of his character, itís non-essential since he didnít always wear it.
Yeah but it is a symbol of rank in the movie.
Even the cabinet members each have one with their title.

Presumably his says president.

Many of the others are a silver color
  #366  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:40 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar Laura View Post
I keep thinking about that guy whose Geordi costume included brown facepaint. Initially, the cosplay effort seemed at once so inept and sincere that I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt; he pretty much looked about as good as his friend, "Data," he just had an extra reason to wince because of historical issues. But he didn't mean any harm.

Except that guy didn't just teleport into that costume and in front of that camera in a moment. He didn't get stung by a bee, then swerve his car accidentally into the makeup. As bad as the efforts were (no, colored contacts are not impressive as cosplay goes; many cons have a dealer room booth or two that sell them) they had to take time, spend money, meet people and interact with others as they put together the pieces of their cosplay, planned it, and eventually arrived and wandered through the con to be photographed.

I really find it hard to imagine that he never, at any point, had anyone point out to him the reasons not to put on that makeup. I find it regrettable that he apparently just wandered through a convention like that. But I think he had to know by the time he was in the costume and in the convention center, and maybe just decided, "Their reasons for saying this is offensive aren't good enough, I'm willing to offend people if I get to dress like this."
I can actually see someone who attends these conventions being so out of it socially that they may actually not be aware of the offense, and not have anyone that would tell them of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
Still, I wouldn't call it a scenario where the guy is obviously racist.

People do much more clueless stuff all the time. Like the fat guy in Spiderman PJs you mentioned, you would think that at some point someone told him it wasn't a good look, you would think he'd never make it into public that way and yet he did.
Yeah, that would just be a rude thing to do. He may not win the costume contest, but if he wants to portray his favorite character, then the fact that he is not a physical match for it should not cause you to criticize him for just showing up.
  #367  
Old 02-08-2019, 10:24 AM
typoink typoink is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I still don't see it as a good equivalent analogy. The swastika you mention is part of various ethnic decorative traditions and if I saw it used as part of an ethnic wedding outfit say, even if worn by someone not of that culture, I'd have no issues. .
Don't fight the hypothetical. Man, you LOVE to slightly modify what people say to make them easier to argue with. You should probably try to be aware of that habit. You're like a guy who goes to a debate smuggling a bale of hay to try to stuff under his opponents' shirts when nobody's looking. It doesn't actually work.

To restate:

You see a white guy wearing a t-shirt with no cultural adornment but an orthogonal swastika. He directly tells you, "I just like how it looks and want to wear it. I'm not going to a 'culturally-appropriate wedding', but I'm certainly not a Nazi." You believe he is sincere.

How do you react?
  #368  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:11 AM
monstro monstro is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 19,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I can actually see someone who attends these conventions being so out of it socially that they may actually not be aware of the offense, and not have anyone that would tell them of it.







Yeah, that would just be a rude thing to do. He may not win the costume contest, but if he wants to portray his favorite character, then the fact that he is not a physical match for it should not cause you to criticize him for just showing up.
This thread is making me think there are a lot of people who become Judgy McJugdersons on Halloween. "How dare that little handicapped boy try to perpetrate like he's Harry Potter? How you gonna call yourself Harry Potter when your ass is in a wheelchair! What, he thinks he is too good to dress up like Magneto? Someone needs to show him a mirror and remind him of his place!"

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
__________________
What the hell is a signature?
  #369  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:50 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by typoink View Post
Don't fight the hypothetical. Man, you LOVE to slightly modify what people say to make them easier to argue with.
You should probably try to be aware of that habit. You're like a guy who goes to a debate smuggling a bale of hay to try to stuff under his opponents' shirts when nobody's looking. It doesn't actually work.
Balls to that, You got an honest and full response to your original hypothetical and it applies equally to your modified version. i.e.

Quote:
In all honesty it would surprise me so much that I'd assume it was a character on location (I'm thinking of Tim Roth, Stephen Graham, Ed Norton style characters here) an explanation along those lines would be very plausible to me. Purely fashion-based? not so much.
That's an honest answer and I can't help that you don't like it but it is utterly impossible to give a fuller answer unless I know the full context and details of the situation, which is why I expanded on your modified hypothetical to better explain my thought process. Worth noting though that the response I've given to your hypothetical, deficient though it may be, is far more than I got for my car-crash hypothetical from other posters. To that? answer came there none.

You do know that this is a consistent position of mine throughout? I would hesitate to leap to a judgement on a situation that is as scant on context as the one you provide in your hypothetical. I might condemn them as racist and run a fucking mile or not.

Quote:
You see a white guy wearing a t-shirt with no cultural adornment but an orthogonal swastika. He directly tells you, "I just like how it looks and want to wear it. I'm not going to a 'culturally-appropriate wedding', but I'm certainly not a Nazi." You believe he is sincere.

How do you react?
If you've already decided that I believe he is sincere then haven't you already decided what my reaction is going to be and assumed I've got enough context to make an informed decision? Depending on the myriad complexities of the situation I may not actually believe he is sincere and even if I did I might tell him it is a bad choice, a bold choice or an idiotic choice depending on.....you know.....the context.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #370  
Old 02-08-2019, 12:02 PM
StraightTalk StraightTalk is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I was told about ten years ago that such descriptions should be shied away from. I have been in situations where I walk into a room and ask who John Smith is. Someone will point to two people standing together talking, one black and one white, and they will describe John as the taller guy, or the guy with the blue blazer, or the one on the right (no their right) and do everything except to make the obvious distinction of saying the white guy or the black guy, even though that would immediately clarify things.

That's how absurd things have gotten. There is nothing demeaning about describing a person. American Dad lampooned the shit out of this trope in an episode where Stan does everything to try to describe the white girl and finally says that she is the one where if you were handing out sunscreen you would give it to her first.

These "rules" make no sense other than to further the divisions between the races, increase hostility, and to keep those who pretend to be offended in power.
  #371  
Old 02-08-2019, 12:34 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstro View Post
This thread is making me think there are a lot of people who become Judgy McJugdersons on Halloween. "How dare that little handicapped boy try to perpetrate like he's Harry Potter? How you gonna call yourself Harry Potter when your ass is in a wheelchair! What, he thinks he is too good to dress up like Magneto? Someone needs to show him a mirror and remind him of his place!"

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
I think you meant Xavier not magneto. See, all white people just look the same to you don't they?! Can't even tell apart a guy in a wheelchair.


I'm just teasing, of course .
  #372  
Old 02-08-2019, 12:39 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I can actually see someone who attends these conventions being so out of it socially that they may actually not be aware of the offense, and not have anyone that would tell them of it.



Yeah, that would just be a rude thing to do. He may not win the costume contest, but if he wants to portray his favorite character, then the fact that he is not a physical match for it should not cause you to criticize him for just showing up.
I'm not really familiar with the video but I think the guy was wearing undersized PJs with his belly hanging out.

Nothing to do with a physical match.
  #373  
Old 02-08-2019, 02:28 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
Balls to that, You got an honest and full response to your original hypothetical and it applies equally to your modified version. i.e.
No, that's not how hypothetical work. You don't change the hypothetical to answer the question that you want to answer.

If, after answering, you decide to create your own counter hypothetical, and expand upon it, that's fine. But what you are doing it avoiding the question by changing it.
Quote:


That's an honest answer and I can't help that you don't like it but it is utterly impossible to give a fuller answer unless I know the full context and details of the situation, which is why I expanded on your modified hypothetical to better explain my thought process.
No, you just ducked the question.
Quote:
Worth noting though that the response I've given to your hypothetical, deficient though it may be, is far more than I got for my car-crash hypothetical from other posters. To that? answer came there none.
BeagleJesus, the person you asked it of, did answer. You just didn't like the answer. I also replied to his/her answer, adding my own opinion to it.
Quote:
You do know that this is a consistent position of mine throughout? I would hesitate to leap to a judgement on a situation that is as scant on context as the one you provide in your hypothetical. I might condemn them as racist and run a fucking mile or not.
What context is missing? You are given the scenario and the reasons, what else do you need before you can decide whether or not you will tell this guy, "maybe that's not such a great idea."
Quote:
If you've already decided that I believe he is sincere then haven't you already decided what my reaction is going to be and assumed I've got enough context to make an informed decision? Depending on the myriad complexities of the situation I may not actually believe he is sincere and even if I did I might tell him it is a bad choice, a bold choice or an idiotic choice depending on.....you know.....the context.
Talk about fighting the hypothetical. one question, you see this guy walking out the door. You know that he is sincere in his enjoyment of this symbol. Do you recommend that he change shirts, or do you send him out into the public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
I'm not really familiar with the video but I think the guy was wearing undersized PJs with his belly hanging out.

Nothing to do with a physical match.
Ah, so not about accuracy, just about your desire to body shame. That has nothing to do with blackface, cosplay, or costumes, and is pretty off topic.
  #374  
Old 02-08-2019, 04:06 PM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
No, that's not how hypothetical work. You don't change the hypothetical to answer the question that you want to answer.

If, after answering, you decide to create your own counter hypothetical, and expand upon it, that's fine. But what you are doing it avoiding the question by changing it.

No, you just ducked the question.
This is rich. I answered your initial hypothetical in full. You didn't like the answer and so tried again by changing it and then even pre-supposing what my reaction to it would be and then including that in the hypothetical. Astonishing. Still, you get the same answer and still don't like it. I just can't help you any further with this.

The questions you asked and the answers I gave are clearly there for everyone to go back and read. The question I asked regarding the car-crash and the non-answer I was given are also there for everyone to read. I leave it to the comprehension of the impartial reader to divine how it actually panned out.

I have nothing more to add because you are now either unable to follow my words or misrepresenting what I wrote. I mean, FFS, in your criticism of my answer you don't even quote my answer. The one I helpfully re-quoted myself.
If you think you or BeagleJesus answered my question in a similarly direct way then it would have been simplicity for you to quote them and correct me. Feel free to do so, I don't think you can.

All the relevant points I want to make have now been are there for all to see and I find that when I reach to point of repeating myself and having to defend that what I actually wrote, is what I actually wrote then it is a waste of finger movement to continue, there's no further progress to be made.

Have whatever fun you consider appropriate.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #375  
Old 02-08-2019, 04:55 PM
BeagleJesus BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
If you think you or BeagleJesus answered my question in a similarly direct way then it would have been simplicity for you to quote them and correct me. Feel free to do so, I don't think you can.
Sorry chief, Iím with K9 on this one. My position on this subject literally cannot be any more direct and I have stated it multiple times in multiple ways. I even tried using an analogy one time...it didnít go well for you. Instead of having to correct you it would be far simpler if you would just pay attention the first time and stop trying to reframe the argument so that your position is more tenable.
  #376  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:01 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
No, that's not how hypothetical work. You don't change the hypothetical to answer the question that you want to answer.

If, after answering, you decide to create your own counter hypothetical, and expand upon it, that's fine. But what you are doing it avoiding the question by changing it.

No, you just ducked the question.

BeagleJesus, the person you asked it of, did answer. You just didn't like the answer. I also replied to his/her answer, adding my own opinion to it.

What context is missing? You are given the scenario and the reasons, what else do you need before you can decide whether or not you will tell this guy, "maybe that's not such a great idea."


Talk about fighting the hypothetical. one question, you see this guy walking out the door. You know that he is sincere in his enjoyment of this symbol. Do you recommend that he change shirts, or do you send him out into the public?



Ah, so not about accuracy, just about your desire to body shame. That has nothing to do with blackface, cosplay, or costumes, and is pretty off topic.
I thought it was awfully on topic as an example and in response to the poster who brought it up , used to show just how often people do in fact get out in public without being advised of any bad decision.

I have very little problem with body shaming ( made up word combination to enable whining) I smoke ,it's as bad or worse for my health than obesity but I don't cry about it when people shame that , that is beside the point. I also don't bother doing it myself and I'm often the guy sticking up for anyone being picked on bc it's just not necessary.


Regardless of your body type, belly pajamas on a guy in public will be a funny look, and people will laugh. If i was the guys friend I would have advised against it, because i know people would laugh.

The Gucci shirt makes a better example, you know no company who wants to make money purposely made their shirt look like blackface, and you know if someone had brought it up they would have erred on the side of caution.
Yet, this thing still made it all the way into their catalog.

I'm also not sure why you're arguing something you agreed with.

Last edited by Littleman; 02-08-2019 at 05:04 PM.
  #377  
Old 02-08-2019, 05:04 PM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
Sorry chief, Iím with K9 on this one. My position on this subject literally cannot be any more direct and I have stated it multiple times in multiple ways. I even tried using an analogy one time...it didnít go well for you. Instead of having to correct you it would be far simpler if you would just pay attention the first time and stop trying to reframe the argument so that your position is more tenable.
unluckily for you the things we both wrote and particularly your double evasion of my straightforward question are there, in black and white, upthread. Indeed, you explicitly said, in CAPS of all things that you refused to answer it.

All a matter of record, go back and read it. I've nothing else that I need to add.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #378  
Old 02-08-2019, 08:13 PM
SmartAleq's Avatar
SmartAleq SmartAleq is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: PDXLNT
Posts: 4,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
All a matter of record, go back and read it. I've nothing else that I need to add.
Oh good, so does that mean you're finally going to shut up and quit excavating that quite enormous hole you've dug yourself into?
  #379  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:00 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
This is rich. I answered your initial hypothetical in full. You didn't like the answer and so tried again by changing it and then even pre-supposing what my reaction to it would be and then including that in the hypothetical. Astonishing. Still, you get the same answer and still don't like it. I just can't help you any further with this.
Considering that it wasn't even my hypothetical, I didn't even give a hypothetical, that was another poster, I don't think you have any clue what you are talking about here.

Any reformulations were to help you with the confusion that you seems to be having with a simple question, to eliminate all the distracint variables that you keep adding in to it.

But, anyway, it doesn't matter, you refuse to answer a simple question with a yes or no, that's fine, I can't make you or anything.

Just be aware that you did not address typoink's hypothetical in the slightest.
Quote:
The questions you asked and the answers I gave are clearly there for everyone to go back and read. The question I asked regarding the car-crash and the non-answer I was given are also there for everyone to read. I leave it to the comprehension of the impartial reader to divine how it actually panned out.
Right, the question that was asked of you is there to be seen, and your dodging of it is also there.

The question you asked about the car crash was answered in full by BeagleJesus, and added to by my opinion on it.

As far as an impartial observer would be considered, if they are still confused as to why blackface is offensive, after not only years and years of history to work with, along with our arguments in this thread, then they will probably lack the comprehension required to divine anything at all.

For your car crash hypothetical. The straight answer is No. It does not matter why you hit me, the damage is the same. My whiplash doesn't care if you had a stroke or if you were inattentive. My mechanic is not going to charge me differently based on whether you were diligent or negligent when you damaged my car.

Why should I care why you hit me? Either way, I am put out. I'm not going to beat you up or anything because you were texting, so how am I going to treat you any differently if you were having a stroke? (well, I'd be quicker to call 911 for a stroke)

The law may treat you differently, but I am not going to. Why should I? What are you going to do to someone that hit you because they were texting?
Quote:
I have nothing more to add because you are now either unable to follow my words or misrepresenting what I wrote. I mean, FFS, in your criticism of my answer you don't even quote my answer. The one I helpfully re-quoted myself.
That's not really an answer. I did not misrepresent anything, but you may be confused, as you keep conflating me with another poster, so I don't know if you are talking to me, or to the other poster that you seem to think is me.
Quote:
If you think you or BeagleJesus answered my question in a similarly direct way then it would have been simplicity for you to quote them and correct me. Feel free to do so, I don't think you can.

All the relevant points I want to make have now been are there for all to see and I find that when I reach to point of repeating myself and having to defend that what I actually wrote, is what I actually wrote then it is a waste of finger movement to continue, there's no further progress to be made.
You were the one that seemed to have trouble understanding why blackface was offensive. We did our best to explain.

Now that you have decided to become hostile because we could not explain it to your satisfaction, then no, there is no further progress to be made.
Quote:
Have whatever fun you consider appropriate.
You too bub. Go out wearing blackface all you want. Remember to report back on how it goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
I thought it was awfully on topic as an example and in response to the poster who brought it up , used to show just how often people do in fact get out in public without being advised of any bad decision.
Well, I disagree that that is a bad decision. And, so, apparently, did the person that you are making fun of right now.

He just wanted to have some fun, harmless, not bothering anybody. You also seem to want to have some fun, but to have your fun, you have to put down other people.

I have much more respect for a person who wears Spidey PJ's with his gut sticking out than the person who insults them for it.
Quote:
I have very little problem with body shaming ( made up word combination to enable whining)
All words are made up. As well as you fabricating the intent behind it in order to insult and demean.
Quote:
I smoke ,it's as bad or worse for my health than obesity but I don't cry about it when people shame that , that is beside the point. I also don't bother doing it myself and I'm often the guy sticking up for anyone being picked on bc it's just not necessary.
No one is crying, that is another thing that you have made the decision to make up and throw out there in an effort to prevent productive discourse.

As a long, long time but now ex-smoker, I know what you mean. Sometimes, people would say you should stop smoking, even some would coug as they went by. In theory, they are worried about your health.

What you are doing in telling a person that he is too fat to pretend to be spiderman is different. You are not worried about his health, you are not suggesting he lose weight, you are telling him that he looks stupid because he's too fat to be spiderman.
Quote:
Regardless of your body type, belly pajamas on a guy in public will be a funny look, and people will laugh. If i was the guys friend I would have advised against it, because i know people would laugh.
I may advise against it if he is going to a job interview, but if he says he wants to go out and play spiderman, I'm all for it. Assholes may laugh, but fuck them, they are pieces of shit who are just jealous that they don't have the balls to be spiderman.
Quote:
The Gucci shirt makes a better example, you know no company who wants to make money purposely made their shirt look like blackface, and you know if someone had brought it up they would have erred on the side of caution.
Yet, this thing still made it all the way into their catalog.
Yeah, that was pretty stupid on their part. I have no idea what they were thinking.
Quote:
I'm also not sure why you're arguing something you agreed with.
Not sure what you are referring to.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-08-2019 at 09:04 PM.
  #380  
Old 02-08-2019, 09:31 PM
Trafalgar Laura's Avatar
Trafalgar Laura Trafalgar Laura is offline
Ice Bear, Honey Bear.
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 272
I feel bad now.

I don't really feel negatively in general towards.... lower-effort or intro level cosplay. If a person's love for a character comes through, I really am just happy they're expressing that love and feel comfortable doing that in public. I addressed non-typical Sailor Moon cosplayers because someone else brought it up. But I feel the same about the heavy Sailors as I do about the crossplaying ones--good for them, they're having a good time and getting to express another side of themselves, reflecting a character.

The Geordi is a fan, not trying to make fun of the character; I'm pretty sure of that. I do think even if he's kind of... sheltered from others, someone at some point must have brought this up to him? Maybe not. And maybe it was too awkward to talk about, when he was at the con, and he seemed so sincere?

That's one downside of convention and fan culture, a bunch of us (including me) are super socially awkward and so mistakes are made. In my case, going overboard in pointing out the high quality and often attractive nature of serious cosplayers and thus sounding like the cosplayers who are more casual or less body-typical aren't acceptable. While contacts, an official Star Trek costume and poor makeup don't really make for a very complex or advanced costume, or even what I'd consider a representative costume, if I saw the Data I'd probably just think it was nice he was getting to dress up as Data.

Even if I saw the Geordi, I realize, I'd just stare and think it was a terrible idea, and then walk quietly away. Maybe that's what happened, the whole con.

Also, I'm super super ugly and fat, if that helps.

Last edited by Trafalgar Laura; 02-08-2019 at 09:33 PM. Reason: Ice bear, guilty bear.
  #381  
Old 02-08-2019, 10:56 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Considering that it wasn't even my hypothetical, I didn't even give a hypothetical, that was another poster, I don't think you have any clue what you are talking about here.

Any reformulations were to help you with the confusion that you seems to be having with a simple question, to eliminate all the distracint variables that you keep adding in to it.

But, anyway, it doesn't matter, you refuse to answer a simple question with a yes or no, that's fine, I can't make you or anything.

Just be aware that you did not address typoink's hypothetical in the slightest.

Right, the question that was asked of you is there to be seen, and your dodging of it is also there.

The question you asked about the car crash was answered in full by BeagleJesus, and added to by my opinion on it.

As far as an impartial observer would be considered, if they are still confused as to why blackface is offensive, after not only years and years of history to work with, along with our arguments in this thread, then they will probably lack the comprehension required to divine anything at all.

For your car crash hypothetical. The straight answer is No. It does not matter why you hit me, the damage is the same. My whiplash doesn't care if you had a stroke or if you were inattentive. My mechanic is not going to charge me differently based on whether you were diligent or negligent when you damaged my car.

Why should I care why you hit me? Either way, I am put out. I'm not going to beat you up or anything because you were texting, so how am I going to treat you any differently if you were having a stroke? (well, I'd be quicker to call 911 for a stroke)

The law may treat you differently, but I am not going to. Why should I? What are you going to do to someone that hit you because they were texting?

That's not really an answer. I did not misrepresent anything, but you may be confused, as you keep conflating me with another poster, so I don't know if you are talking to me, or to the other poster that you seem to think is me.

You were the one that seemed to have trouble understanding why blackface was offensive. We did our best to explain.

Now that you have decided to become hostile because we could not explain it to your satisfaction, then no, there is no further progress to be made.


You too bub. Go out wearing blackface all you want. Remember to report back on how it goes.


Well, I disagree that that is a bad decision. And, so, apparently, did the person that you are making fun of right now.

He just wanted to have some fun, harmless, not bothering anybody. You also seem to want to have some fun, but to have your fun, you have to put down other people.

I have much more respect for a person who wears Spidey PJ's with his gut sticking out than the person who insults them for it.

All words are made up. As well as you fabricating the intent behind it in order to insult and demean.

No one is crying, that is another thing that you have made the decision to make up and throw out there in an effort to prevent productive discourse.

As a long, long time but now ex-smoker, I know what you mean. Sometimes, people would say you should stop smoking, even some would coug as they went by. In theory, they are worried about your health.

What you are doing in telling a person that he is too fat to pretend to be spiderman is different. You are not worried about his health, you are not suggesting he lose weight, you are telling him that he looks stupid because he's too fat to be spiderman.

I may advise against it if he is going to a job interview, but if he says he wants to go out and play spiderman, I'm all for it. Assholes may laugh, but fuck them, they are pieces of shit who are just jealous that they don't have the balls to be spiderman.

Yeah, that was pretty stupid on their part. I have no idea what they were thinking.


Not sure what you are referring to.
You're entirely missing the point and looking for insults where there are none.
I'm telling him maybe wear a costume that fits, just as I would hope someone would do for me if I decided to wear my child's PJs out in public.

The whole thing was 1 not brought up by me 2 used to point out to Trafalgar who brought it up that Geordi could quite possibly plan his costume and make it all the way to the con without anyone telling him, which you agreed to.
  #382  
Old 02-08-2019, 11:11 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar Laura View Post
I feel bad now.

I don't really feel negatively in general towards.... lower-effort or intro level cosplay. If a person's love for a character comes through, I really am just happy they're expressing that love and feel comfortable doing that in public. I addressed non-typical Sailor Moon cosplayers because someone else brought it up. But I feel the same about the heavy Sailors as I do about the crossplaying ones--good for them, they're having a good time and getting to express another side of themselves, reflecting a character.

The Geordi is a fan, not trying to make fun of the character; I'm pretty sure of that. I do think even if he's kind of... sheltered from others, someone at some point must have brought this up to him? Maybe not. And maybe it was too awkward to talk about, when he was at the con, and he seemed so sincere?

That's one downside of convention and fan culture, a bunch of us (including me) are super socially awkward and so mistakes are made. In my case, going overboard in pointing out the high quality and often attractive nature of serious cosplayers and thus sounding like the cosplayers who are more casual or less body-typical aren't acceptable. While contacts, an official Star Trek costume and poor makeup don't really make for a very complex or advanced costume, or even what I'd consider a representative costume, if I saw the Data I'd probably just think it was nice he was getting to dress up as Data.

Even if I saw the Geordi, I realize, I'd just stare and think it was a terrible idea, and then walk quietly away. Maybe that's what happened, the whole con.

Also, I'm super super ugly and fat, if that helps.
I don't think anyone took your statements as judgy.

Also I'm sorry to hear you say your super ugly, and i doubt it, even in all my superficiality i can say probably less than 1 percent of people would qualify there. So in all likelihood you're perfectly fine.
I hope your attitude towards your image changes.

Fact: Feel better, look better.

Good attitude might not actually physically Cha a persons look but it will in fact change how others percieve how you look and how attractive you are irrespective of looks.
  #383  
Old 02-09-2019, 02:54 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: South East England
Posts: 8,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Considering that it wasn't even my hypothetical, I didn't even give a hypothetical, that was another poster, I don't think you have any clue what you are talking about here.
I'm not getting back into it but I always correct and clarify when I'm factually in error.

You are right, they weren't your hypotheticals they were typolnk's. You quoted my response to them and then your response read as if you were speaking as them and my response followed from that. Not a deliberate tactic or incompetence, just a minor lack of clarity in a thread with multiple lines of questioning and posters.
__________________
I'm saving this space for the first good insult hurled my way
  #384  
Old 02-09-2019, 01:48 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
You're entirely missing the point and looking for insults where there are none.
I don't think I am missing the point, and I am seeing that this person will be insulted if you follow through on your proposed course of action.
Quote:
I'm telling him maybe wear a costume that fits, just as I would hope someone would do for me if I decided to wear my child's PJs out in public.
If you want to provide as a gift, a better fitting costume, then he may appreciate it.

If you just want to tell him that he looks silly because of what he has chosen to wear, you are not doing it for him, you are doing it for you.
Quote:
The whole thing was 1 not brought up by me 2 used to point out to Trafalgar who brought it up that Geordi could quite possibly plan his costume and make it all the way to the con without anyone telling him, which you agreed to.
I didn't agree, I think I actually pointed that out before Trafalgar's excellent post that some of the people that you will find at cons like that will be socially inept and awkward. It is possible that he didn't have any friends to run his costume by that would have told him that the skin color change was not necessarily a great idea.

And, that's the thing. If you make a mistake, apologize, and move on. It was on the Daily Show a while back, and I'm having trouble finding the clip, but that's exactly the point that Roy Wood Jr. made in one of his pieces. I think it went something like, "I'm sorry, I didn't know", and the reply, "Apology accepted, and now you do."

If you have apologized for the actions that you have made out of ignorance, and have taken the new knowledge to heart, then only an asshole would continue to hold it against you. You don't need to cater to assholes.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 02-09-2019 at 01:49 PM.
  #385  
Old 02-09-2019, 02:52 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I don't think I am missing the point, and I am seeing that this person will be insulted if you follow through on your proposed course of action.

If you want to provide as a gift, a better fitting costume, then he may appreciate it.

If you just want to tell him that he looks silly because of what he has chosen to wear, you are not doing it for him, you are doing it for you.


I didn't agree, I think I actually pointed that out before Trafalgar's excellent post that some of the people that you will find at cons like that will be socially inept and awkward. It is possible that he didn't have any friends to run his costume by that would have told him that the skin color change was not necessarily a great idea.

And, that's the thing. If you make a mistake, apologize, and move on. It was on the Daily Show a while back, and I'm having trouble finding the clip, but that's exactly the point that Roy Wood Jr. made in one of his pieces. I think it went something like, "I'm sorry, I didn't know", and the reply, "Apology accepted, and now you do."

If you have apologized for the actions that you have made out of ignorance, and have taken the new knowledge to heart, then only an asshole would continue to hold it against you. You don't need to cater to assholes.
So you don't agree he could have made it to the con without anyone bringing it up, but you agree he could have made it to the con without anyone telling him...? Ok


I do agree, apologize and move on, doesn't have to be a news story.

The gift thing, this may be a male/female communication difference.

If I tell my buddy, dude you stink. He'll laugh and say yeah I need a shower.
If I buy him deodorant that's an insult. Guys i know tend to take words very easily and actions ...not so much.

Same with the costume, if I bought him a fitting costume he's just gonna be slightly offended and ask what's wrong with his old one. If I tell him it looks silly he's probably gonna go get one himself, or just say he doesn't care and move on.

Conversely , I can buy a new shirt for my wife or female friend and they'll just smile and say thanks. If i tell them one of their shirts makes them look fat well ...that's another story.
Been there, as we were going out i told a friend "Michelle, you normally look really good, and I've never seen you look fat , but that shirt is getting there"
She actually appreciated it after getting some confirmation from the girls phrased something more like " oh you never look fat but some of your shirts are better" which she decided meant I was right still, it was a story that was retold for years as " He thinks I look fat"
  #386  
Old 02-09-2019, 02:57 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
I also jokingly picked in my older brother for a pink polo he wore to Easter once, he made a point of wearing the most ridiculously pink outfits he could find to Easter for at least ten years thereafter.
  #387  
Old 02-09-2019, 03:51 PM
Trafalgar Laura's Avatar
Trafalgar Laura Trafalgar Laura is offline
Ice Bear, Honey Bear.
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 272
The overweight Spider-man is really not doing anything comparable to the Geordi costume (similarly, the Data costume is just not a very impressive Data, it's not offensive on any level.)

So I'd say commenting on a Spider-man is a little mean-spirited, but I'm rather sorry if nobody at all ever spoke up to "Geordi" to tell him that really, the visor and the uniform make it super obvious you're Geordi, please do not do the face paint. That's not because it looks bad as a costume, but because it looks bad as... well, a human.
  #388  
Old 02-09-2019, 04:50 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar Laura View Post
The overweight Spider-man is really not doing anything comparable to the Geordi costume (similarly, the Data costume is just not a very impressive Data, it's not offensive on any level.)

So I'd say commenting on a Spider-man is a little mean-spirited, but I'm rather sorry if nobody at all ever spoke up to "Geordi" to tell him that really, the visor and the uniform make it super obvious you're Geordi, please do not do the face paint. That's not because it looks bad as a costume, but because it looks bad as... well, a human.
Good point.

Also these two make a great example on so many levels. Data is flat out whiteface and totally exaggerated, even compared to data's actual whiteness ( I'm aware he's an Android and not human, just represents a human and arguably is considered human at some point)

Data's not offensive because there's no history. could have been a black guy in whiteface and noone would care. Had Data been an overly dark black Android rather than an overly light white Android then dressing as him with makeup would still be offensive.

Geordi ,even though his color is less exaggerated and the guy is probably a fan of Geordi , not making fun of him, Is offensive, for no other reason than the history.
  #389  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:01 PM
Trafalgar Laura's Avatar
Trafalgar Laura Trafalgar Laura is offline
Ice Bear, Honey Bear.
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 272
Well, and face makeup is part of the Data costume, even on the show. The character wears makeup for a sci-fi twist; it's meant to emphasize that he isn't human.

Geordi's skin tone isn't part of a costume.
  #390  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:02 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,205
Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
So you don't agree he could have made it to the con without anyone bringing it up, but you agree he could have made it to the con without anyone telling him...? Ok
That is not in any way, shape, or form, even close to what I said.

Please stop putting words into my mouth, and then complaining that they don't make sense to you.

At the very least, actually quote the words of mine that you question.
Quote:

I do agree, apologize and move on, doesn't have to be a news story.
And that is when it becomes a news story, when the blackface wearer doubles down on his "Well, why is it offensive" thing.
Quote:
The gift thing, this may be a male/female communication difference.

If I tell my buddy, dude you stink. He'll laugh and say yeah I need a shower.
If I buy him deodorant that's an insult. Guys i know tend to take words very easily and actions ...not so much.
As a fellow member of the male species here, I don't think that it is male/female miscommunication thing. If I tell my buddy that he stinks, he'll say "yeah, I know!", and then usually try to become more stinky.

Yeah, deodorant would be rude, but I didn't say deodorant, you did.

I did once buy deodorant for a fellow co-worker who "didn't have time" to put it on in the morning. It was meant to be insulting and degrading, but I was tired of working next to his stench.
Quote:
Same with the costume, if I bought him a fitting costume he's just gonna be slightly offended and ask what's wrong with his old one. If I tell him it looks silly he's probably gonna go get one himself, or just say he doesn't care and move on.
Costumes are not deodorant. Now, if you just go out and buy some spiderman costume, then he may not appreciate that. But, if you say, "Hey, that ones a bit old and ratty, lets get you a new one" , and have some give and take about what it is that he is looking for, then you may very well come to something that both of you like.

Or, he may like the one that he has. That's fine too.
Quote:
Conversely , I can buy a new shirt for my wife or female friend and they'll just smile and say thanks. If i tell them one of their shirts makes them look fat well ...that's another story.
Yeah, I avoid buying clothes for women.
Quote:
Been there, as we were going out i told a friend "Michelle, you normally look really good, and I've never seen you look fat , but that shirt is getting there"
That's a terrible way to say that. Just say that that shirt is unflattering on you. Why do you have to bring up anything about weight. Your criticism is about the shirt, not their body.
Quote:
She actually appreciated it after getting some confirmation from the girls phrased something more like " oh you never look fat but some of your shirts are better" which she decided meant I was right still, it was a story that was retold for years as " He thinks I look fat"
Well, that's because you said that she looked fat.
  #391  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:20 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
The whole thing was 1 not brought up by me 2 used to point out to Trafalgar who brought it up that Geordi could quite possibly plan his costume and make it all the way to the con without anyone telling him, which you agreed to.


I didn't agree, I think I actually pointed that out before Trafalgar's excellent post that some of the people that you will find at cons like that will be socially inept and awkward. It is possible that he didn't have any friends to run his costume by that would have told him that the skin color change was not necessarily a great idea.
  #392  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:27 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trafalgar Laura View Post
Well, and face makeup is part of the Data costume, even on the show. The character wears makeup for a sci-fi twist; it's meant to emphasize that he isn't human.

Geordi's skin tone isn't part of a costume.
So if data was a blackened black guy playing an Android it wouldnt be offensive to use his makeup?


Or your just saying that he wears makeup in the first place at least adds to the unoffensiveness.
  #393  
Old 02-09-2019, 05:40 PM
Littleman Littleman is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 806
Wharf is a real confusing example. Not human, brown makeup is part of his costume. Yet it still seems way too close to me.
  #394  
Old 02-11-2019, 09:01 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 67,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
And that is when it becomes a news story, when the blackface wearer doubles down on his "Well, why is it offensive" thing.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Northam's "situation" was news before he responded to it, and continued to be news while he denied it. Maybe you meant among the general public, but I am not sure I've seen any random Joe become news because of blackface.
  #395  
Old 02-11-2019, 07:29 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 9,502
Was watching Abbott and Costello Go to Mars on Svengoolie Saturday and noticed a brief blackhead scene.
  #396  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:31 AM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 34,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novelty Bobble View Post
I hold it as an absolute moral necessity to treat people equally regardless of sex, gender, sexuality, ethnicity and actively work to challenge discrimination where I see it.

It is how I was brought up, it is how I am wired and it is how I act in real life. I've nothing to prove.
Thank you for continuing to enable a white supremacist system .
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017