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  #101  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:25 PM
begbert2 begbert2 is offline
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Bah, please be kind regarding my cognitive slip where I swapped "viable" and "sentient" in the second-to-last paragraph. Sometimes my own sentience is in doubt.
  #102  
Old 02-05-2019, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post

I guess you're not pro-choice then.

Anyway, how about severe deformities in the fetus? Threats to the mother's health, such as a cancer diagnosis or possible loss of organs? What if the father dies and the mother no longer has any means of supporting herself, or even paying for the hospital bills to give birth? What if the fetus is viable but will likely only live for weeks due to some developmental defect?
I am pro choice. But choices have limits.

I already stated that threats to the mother's life would justify a late term abortion. As to your other hypotheticals, if the age of viability has not been reached, it is none of my business and should be none of the State's. Your last one seems to confuse abortion with euthanasia.
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  #103  
Old 02-05-2019, 09:15 PM
senoy senoy is online now
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Not just college, but primary education as well. Every person I know personally who is pro-life votes against school levies every single time and complains constantly about it. Do you support your local schools?
Pleased to meet you. I've never voted against a school levy and put their signs in my yard. I was on the lines last year with teachers and volunteer at schools. I've met with legislators about our foster care problems and was at the protests about family separations. I adopted a teenage girl who was in a group home. This week Republicans in our legislature have been pushing through a charter school bill and I've been letter writing and rallying protest against it.

I'm also unapologetically pro-life. You don't kill people. Things suck, situations suck, there are no winners in unwanted pregnancies and everything should be done to prevent them, but you don't kill people. I'm also anti-war and anti-capital punishment and anti-gun. You don't kill people.

Last edited by senoy; 02-05-2019 at 09:16 PM.
  #104  
Old 02-05-2019, 10:26 PM
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Since a fetus isn’t a person. Late term abortions shouldn’t go to waste. The meat is most likely tender and certainly fresh. I vote to harvest the meat from these late term abortions and sell it in boutique bucheries or serve it to the homeless.

Hell, I love suckling pig. Waste not want not.
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Last edited by Baka; 02-05-2019 at 10:30 PM.
  #105  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:15 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by senoy View Post
Pleased to meet you. I've never voted against a school levy and put their signs in my yard. I was on the lines last year with teachers and volunteer at schools. I've met with legislators about our foster care problems and was at the protests about family separations. I adopted a teenage girl who was in a group home. This week Republicans in our legislature have been pushing through a charter school bill and I've been letter writing and rallying protest against it.

I'm also unapologetically pro-life. You don't kill people. Things suck, situations suck, there are no winners in unwanted pregnancies and everything should be done to prevent them, but you don't kill people. I'm also anti-war and anti-capital punishment and anti-gun. You don't kill people.
The exception that "proves" that there is not a trend, nice to meet you too.

So, it sounds like you are a pretty far left democrat, who also happens to be pro-life. I'm pro-life as well, but as it is my opinion on that matter, I do not feel that I can force others to live by that opinion. If I am asked my advice or opinion on the matter, I will strongly advise that they keep it, but I also don't give that advice when not asked, and certainly don't force it when it is unwanted.

By unapologetically pro-life, do you meant that you prefer that women keep their pregnancies, or that you think that we should have laws forcing women to keep their pregnancies? I see a big difference, and both are under the same label.

While I would strongly prefer that there be no abortions, and I would support what is necessary to reduce the number, I would not support laws that enforce my opinion. I would certainly support policies and laws that would make keeping the child to be a more viable option, making sure that a child, born to any means, receives the education and medical care and nutrition and environment that they need to seize the opportunities that are presented.

I would do everything to encourage a mother to keep her child, I would make sure that the mother knows that the child will not suffer from poverty or neglect from society. When a single woman sees the life of hardship that she will subject her child to, along with the sacrifices she will have to make in order to prevent that life of hardship from being one of misery, I can absolutely understand the decision.

And, as I said, every person that I know that is pro-life (and this may be a sample bias, as the people I know that are pro-life I know are pro-life because they are pro-life enough to bring it up) is also on the conservative side of all the other issues as well. Anti-public school, anti-WIC and other welfares, anti-affordable healthcare, pro-war, pro-gun, and pro-capital punishment.

They want to create a world that I would not want to bring a child into, and they want to create a world in which you don't have a choice about it.
  #106  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
The exception that "proves" that there is not a trend, nice to meet you too.

So, it sounds like you are a pretty far left democrat, who also happens to be pro-life. I'm pro-life as well, but as it is my opinion on that matter, I do not feel that I can force others to live by that opinion. If I am asked my advice or opinion on the matter, I will strongly advise that they keep it, but I also don't give that advice when not asked, and certainly don't force it when it is unwanted.

By unapologetically pro-life, do you meant that you prefer that women keep their pregnancies, or that you think that we should have laws forcing women to keep their pregnancies? I see a big difference, and both are under the same label.

While I would strongly prefer that there be no abortions, and I would support what is necessary to reduce the number, I would not support laws that enforce my opinion. I would certainly support policies and laws that would make keeping the child to be a more viable option, making sure that a child, born to any means, receives the education and medical care and nutrition and environment that they need to seize the opportunities that are presented.

I would do everything to encourage a mother to keep her child, I would make sure that the mother knows that the child will not suffer from poverty or neglect from society. When a single woman sees the life of hardship that she will subject her child to, along with the sacrifices she will have to make in order to prevent that life of hardship from being one of misery, I can absolutely understand the decision.

And, as I said, every person that I know that is pro-life (and this may be a sample bias, as the people I know that are pro-life I know are pro-life because they are pro-life enough to bring it up) is also on the conservative side of all the other issues as well. Anti-public school, anti-WIC and other welfares, anti-affordable healthcare, pro-war, pro-gun, and pro-capital punishment.

They want to create a world that I would not want to bring a child into, and they want to create a world in which you don't have a choice about it.
I would say that I am not in favor of criminalizing it if for no other reason than the fact that we have the largest incarcerated population in the free world-the last thing we need is more people feeding the prison industrial complex.

I am though in favor of making it more difficult to get while at the same time making birth control easier to procure. If I had my wish, every county health department would implant IEDs for free and birth control pills would be free and delivered to your home. Sterilization surgeries after a certain age or number of children would also be free and easy to get. Condoms would be handed out in schools and workplaces. Research funding would go into better and different birth control options, especially focusing on male birth control to take the responsibility completely off of women. Abortion clinics would be rare and require long waiting times and serious counseling as well as lists of other available options and the goal of the counselors would be to convince mothers not to go through with it. I would have the government completely take over the abortion industry (although to be fair, I'd have them take over all of healthcare, but that's a different story.) I would liken abortion to smoking, we don't have to take away someone's right to choose to smoke, but we should do everything in our power to guide their choice away from it.
  #107  
Old 02-06-2019, 11:14 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I would say that I am not in favor of criminalizing it if for no other reason than the fact that we have the largest incarcerated population in the free world-the last thing we need is more people feeding the prison industrial complex.
Can't disagree with that.
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I am though in favor of making it more difficult to get while at the same time making birth control easier to procure. If I had my wish, every county health department would implant IEDs for free and birth control pills would be free and delivered to your home. Sterilization surgeries after a certain age or number of children would also be free and easy to get.
Thing about the pill for women, is that it's not just "a pill", there are dozens if not hundreds of different ones out there.Some work well for some, some not so much. Need to have, along with the pills, the medical coverage to spend the time with your doctor trying different ones till you find what works.

I used to advocate for the "Vasectomy Camaro Program". Where you are given something nice in return for taking yourself out of the involuntary gene pool.

But, easier to get, absolutely. I know several women who have no desire to ever have children, who have tried to get a sterilization procedure, and were denied, as they don't want to do it unless you've already had children.
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Condoms would be handed out in schools and workplaces. Research funding would go into better and different birth control options, especially focusing on male birth control to take the responsibility completely off of women.
While I agree that the males should share responsibility, as we do not share in the consequences, women need to take extra precaution, in case us guys are shirking ours. I'll believe a woman if she tells me she's on the pill. If I were a woman, I don't know if I would believe the guy making the same claim.
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Abortion clinics would be rare and require long waiting times and serious counseling as well as lists of other available options and the goal of the counselors would be to convince mothers not to go through with it.
Not sure about the wait times. I personally do feel as thought there is a big difference between a clump of cells and a baby an hour before delivery, and that there are many milestones in between. Forcing long waits may mean that what was just a clump of cells when she found out about it and wanted to terminate it is now a much more advanced life by the time the wait is over.

Counselling I agree with, but as long as it is based on truth and fact. Much anti-abortion counseling that is offered provides lies rather than reasoning.
Quote:

I would have the government completely take over the abortion industry (although to be fair, I'd have them take over all of healthcare, but that's a different story.) I would liken abortion to smoking, we don't have to take away someone's right to choose to smoke, but we should do everything in our power to guide their choice away from it.

I don't disagree with discouraging it, but yeah, I also don't like taking away their right to choose.
  #108  
Old 02-06-2019, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Baka View Post
Since a fetus isn’t a person. Late term abortions shouldn’t go to waste. The meat is most likely tender and certainly fresh. I vote to harvest the meat from these late term abortions and sell it in boutique bucheries or serve it to the homeless.

Hell, I love suckling pig. Waste not want not.
This comes off as more than a bit trollish. Since you are relatively new here I am going to give you a mod note instead of a warning, but please note that trolling is potentially an instant-ban type of offense.

Do not intentionally post things that you know will get others riled up.
  #109  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:03 AM
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Moderator Note



This comes off as more than a bit trollish. Since you are relatively new here I am going to give you a mod note instead of a warning, but please note that trolling is potentially an instant-ban type of offense.

Do not intentionally post things that you know will get others riled up.
Oh. Sorry and understood.
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  #110  
Old 02-07-2019, 11:04 AM
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I find out I am pregnant at 10 weeks, think about if for a week, then try to get the procedure done, but due to regulations put in by "pro-life" advocates, I am delayed from being able to have the procedure until after 16 weeks, then any ethical issues with aborting that fetus are on those who forced it to be that late, not on the person who was forced to wait
Excuse my ignorance if I am missing something here, but I get my period every month and had always been led to believe that this was normal, and that's generally between 4-7 days. My cycle is about 34 days and I've had doctors tell me that is on the upper end. Because of these 2 pieces of information, it has always been my policy in times that I've had a boyfriend or any hookups if I stopped bleeding at least 30 days ago and I didn't start back up yet, I don't need to panic, but I do need to go to my bathroom drawer and take a pregnancy test (Walgreens 25 tests that cost me a little over $10 IIRC). Ovulation starts ~5 days after bleeding stops so assuming I had a short period of 3 days (never had one that short) and got pregnant the moment I started ovulation I should still know I was Pregnant 26 days in, more realistically I would notice delay and be taking a test between 19 and 22 days. If I didn't have any tests you could add a week for me to go to the store. so on the extreme end of the scale i could be pregnant for 5 weeks before knowing, but 10?
If I haven't bled for 2 and a half months I would call 911!

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There is someone in your apartment, you have the right to ask them to leave, you have the right to have the Sheriff show up and make them leave, even if they are physically incapable of living when outside your apartment. What you do not have the right to do is demand that the Sheriff shove them out a 10th story window, when they could have lived if you let them out the door.
in most states you cant demand that a tenant, roommate, boyfriend, or couch surfing band without a formal eviction notice and 30 days. If you call the sheriff a deputy will come out and say if here is no violence or real threats of violence they can't do anything.
If it has been the full 30 days after a legal eviction notice, some places will still tell you to go settle it in civil court. Same thing goes for evicting adult children (funny enough, it is a crime under almost all circumstances to kick your kid out on the street between the ages of 0 and 16/17/18 if it happens to be one of the cases in which your kid is "physically incapable of living when outside your apartment" it's probably negligent homicide minimum.
Imagine a scenario where telling a 5 year old "I don't care where you go, just go!" Does not end in handcuffs.
  #111  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:11 PM
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If I had my wish, every county health department would implant IEDs for free
Implanting IEDs would definitely be an effective form of birth control, a bit extreme though...
  #112  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:29 PM
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Excuse my ignorance if I am missing something here, but I get my period every month and had always been led to believe that this was normal, and that's generally between 4-7 days. My cycle is about 34 days and I've had doctors tell me that is on the upper end. Because of these 2 pieces of information, it has always been my policy in times that I've had a boyfriend or any hookups if I stopped bleeding at least 30 days ago and I didn't start back up yet, I don't need to panic, but I do need to go to my bathroom drawer and take a pregnancy test (Walgreens 25 tests that cost me a little over $10 IIRC). Ovulation starts ~5 days after bleeding stops so assuming I had a short period of 3 days (never had one that short) and got pregnant the moment I started ovulation I should still know I was Pregnant 26 days in, more realistically I would notice delay and be taking a test between 19 and 22 days. If I didn't have any tests you could add a week for me to go to the store. so on the extreme end of the scale i could be pregnant for 5 weeks before knowing, but 10?
If I haven't bled for 2 and a half months I would call 911!



in most states you cant demand that a tenant, roommate, boyfriend, or couch surfing band without a formal eviction notice and 30 days. If you call the sheriff a deputy will come out and say if here is no violence or real threats of violence they can't do anything.
If it has been the full 30 days after a legal eviction notice, some places will still tell you to go settle it in civil court. Same thing goes for evicting adult children (funny enough, it is a crime under almost all circumstances to kick your kid out on the street between the ages of 0 and 16/17/18 if it happens to be one of the cases in which your kid is "physically incapable of living when outside your apartment" it's probably negligent homicide minimum.
Imagine a scenario where telling a 5 year old "I don't care where you go, just go!" Does not end in handcuffs.
you are missing that not all cycles are that regular and that not all pregnancies result in missed periods. Drug store pregnancy tests are not reliable they can result in false positives and false negatives. Getting an appointment at the doctor can take time as well.
  #113  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:31 PM
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Implanting IEDs would definitely be an effective form of birth control, a bit extreme though...
The weird thing is why does IUD autocorrect to IED in my phone? i guess I talk more about terrorism than birth control.
  #114  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:35 PM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... not all pregnancies result in missed periods. ...
This I did not know. Is there a medical term for this?
  #115  
Old 02-07-2019, 02:59 PM
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"Bleeding while pregnant"

Technically, it's not menstruation but it can seem like menstruation, particularly for women who have irregular or light periods anyway. There are several things that can cause bleeding during pregnancy, from nothing to worry about to potentially life-threatening.

Keep in mind, too, you can skip a period even if you aren't pregnant.

And finally - there is one circumstance where a woman can genuinely menstruate while pregnant - if she has more than one uterus. That's quite rare, but such women do exist. It is possible for such a woman to have a fetus in one uterus while the other cycling.
  #116  
Old 02-07-2019, 03:10 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Excuse my ignorance if I am missing something here, but I get my period every month and had always been led to believe that this was normal, and that's generally between 4-7 days. My cycle is about 34 days and I've had doctors tell me that is on the upper end. Because of these 2 pieces of information, it has always been my policy in times that I've had a boyfriend or any hookups if I stopped bleeding at least 30 days ago and I didn't start back up yet, I don't need to panic, but I do need to go to my bathroom drawer and take a pregnancy test (Walgreens 25 tests that cost me a little over $10 IIRC). Ovulation starts ~5 days after bleeding stops so assuming I had a short period of 3 days (never had one that short) and got pregnant the moment I started ovulation I should still know I was Pregnant 26 days in, more realistically I would notice delay and be taking a test between 19 and 22 days. If I didn't have any tests you could add a week for me to go to the store. so on the extreme end of the scale i could be pregnant for 5 weeks before knowing, but 10?
If I haven't bled for 2 and a half months I would call 911!
As a guy, I'm am more ignorant of this, but, as a guy that works with a super majority female staff, I am less ignorant of it than I would like to be.

Not all periods are that regular. Some women miss their periods for months in a row. some have them so light that they might just think that they missed it, and some have so heavy, that they dread the next one enough that they don't notice when it doesn't come.

And, while you can't have an actual menstruation while pregnant, you can have vaginal bleeding that make you think it is.
  #117  
Old 02-11-2019, 02:25 PM
CelticKnot CelticKnot is offline
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I do not approve of a government that forces women to bear children against their will. I fully support the right of women to make decisions with which I may not agree. "I don't like it!" isn't a good reason to make something illegal.
But it, (and the corollary "I don't wanna!") seem to be a good enough reason to deprive a human being of their life.


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"We don't know, but we can't afford to make such a potentially horrible mistake because somehow, sometime, somewhere someone will reveal information we never suspected existed in the first place?
The trouble with this kind of "logic" is that it is used so selectively. For instance, what if alien cockroaches or mosquitoes land in the future and ask to see their ambassadors? What if we find out in the future that trees have been sentient all this time, but we had no means to find that out? There are thousands of silly scenarios out there that follow the pattern of logic you are trying to apply to the situation in the OP-"We don't dare X because we might find out Y in the future!". Guilt tripping over something that might be revealed in the future? No, thank you.
Yet, so many people are arguing for abortion on basis of "What if the kid grows up to be Hitler?" and "no one should bring a child into the world if there is no guarantee that the child will have a terrific life."
The saddest thing is that there are millions of families who would joyfully have adopted babies that have been aborted over the last decades, and couldn't. In our case, it was always too expensive. In addition to the monstrous legal fees, in many places you must also live in a completely updated or new home, and that was impossible for us.

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I suggest you all read/listen to people who've had "late-term abortions" -- a totally undefined term -- and revisit the question.

I'm not saying that because I believe it'll make you come down on "my side" -- just saying that it's worth listening to what people who've done it have to say about their decision and their reasons.

I've done some of that, and come away from it unimpressed by arguments for banning such abortions. YMMV.
How often do you read/listen to people who advocate for life? Have you seen Lila Rose's videos? Do you ever read articles from sites like Live Action? Because if you haven't, some might be unimpressed by your request.
  #118  
Old 02-11-2019, 02:43 PM
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Yet, so many people are arguing for abortion on basis of "What if the kid grows up to be Hitler?" and "no one should bring a child into the world if there is no guarantee that the child will have a terrific life."
So many people?
Really?
Who?
  #119  
Old 02-11-2019, 04:47 PM
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The saddest thing is that there are millions of families who would joyfully have adopted babies that have been aborted over the last decades, and couldn't. In our case, it was always too expensive. In addition to the monstrous legal fees, in many places you must also live in a completely updated or new home, and that was impossible for us.
There are also places - yes, even in the US!- which have religious requirements (good luck adopting if you're not Christian enough in areas that only have agencies run by fundamentalist types), health requirements (don't bother if you or your spouse is handicapped), and a bunch of other rules and requirements that are not imposed on biological parents. I agree, there's some screwed up priorities there.

That said - I, personally, am still strongly pro-choice because I believe no one should be obligated to carry a pregnancy against their will, or forced to give birth against their will.

That's why I'm very pro-birth control. I'm also pro-adoption and think that should be made easier and less complicated. Surely we could do that better, too.
  #120  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:35 PM
CelticKnot CelticKnot is offline
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Of course, the problem with this is that we can keep babies alive when they are really young, but that doesn't mean that they don't have serious problems later. My son was born at 26 weeks. He was alive, but had brain bleeds, needed a tracheostomy and a feeding tube and at 10 years old still isn't able to eat solid foods and must be tube fed. The brain bleeds caused mild cerebral palsy and all of the complications that that brings and have caused mild cognitive disabilities. Not enough to ruin his life, but enough to make things harder than they need to be. We know other kids in similar situations with severe developmental disabilities. It's one thing to subject a kid to that because of a random quirk of nature and quite another because 'your mom had bodily autonomy.'
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The argument is that taking a 'Mother has full bodily autonomy, the state can require the fetus be born alive rather than killed.' can lead to a class of people that have severe and serious disabilities and problems that are completely preventable all in the name of preserving the mother's right to bodily autonomy.

Do you think that it's ethically just to say to a person, "Hey, I'm sorry that your IQ is 90, you can't talk or walk and you're confined to a group home, but your Mom got tired of you at 25 weeks and decided to evict you. If she had waited a couple of months, you'd probably be perfectly healthy, but them's the breaks."
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So many people?
Really?
Who?
In addition to the quotes above, there's sites like returnofkings.com

I'm going to guess that you don't have these conversations in places with members of political leanings to the right of SDMB, so you wouldn't see other kinds of arguments. I've seen people post statements that say that if a woman can't have an abortion, it is the responsibility for other people to pay for the child's care. We would love to. That's called adoption, and yet that's not good enough.
  #121  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:46 PM
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In addition to the quotes above, there's sites like returnofkings.com
I didn't even know that site existed. Is this where you go to get opinions about...anything at all?
  #122  
Old 02-11-2019, 06:12 PM
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But it, (and the corollary "I don't wanna!") seem to be a good enough reason to deprive a human being of their life.
I'm sure you don't think any reason a woman gives for aborting a fetus is good enough, but so what? Your approval is not required.
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  #123  
Old 02-11-2019, 06:53 PM
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In addition to the quotes above, there's sites like returnofkings.com

I'm going to guess that you don't have these conversations in places with members of political leanings to the right of SDMB, so you wouldn't see other kinds of arguments. I've seen people post statements that say that if a woman can't have an abortion, it is the responsibility for other people to pay for the child's care. We would love to. That's called adoption, and yet that's not good enough.
I can think of one pretty obvious reason why it's not good enough - where's the back pay for the months of discomfort (at a minimum!) that you're expecting the women to go though so that you can have the kids?

Conservatives note - there's a free market solution here. I'm quite confident that there are pay rates you could set that would prevent the vast majority of abortions. Don't be stingy now! Potential lives are at stake.
  #124  
Old 02-12-2019, 02:12 AM
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Interesting interview with a couple of prominent doctors about the phrase "late-term abortion", the inflammatory language used by the President, and the primary reasons abortions occur in the latter months.
  #125  
Old 02-12-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by CelticKnot View Post
I've seen people post statements that say that if a woman can't have an abortion, it is the responsibility for other people to pay for the child's care. We would love to. That's called adoption, and yet that's not good enough.
No, of course it's not good enough, as there are many unwanted children that are not adopted.

If there are no children in foster care or orphanages, and every single child has found a loving home in which they are wanted, then that would be good enough.
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