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  #51  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:32 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is online now
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Do you not think that people apologize for hurting other people while not necessarily seeing much wrong with what they've said? It's not insincere, per se.
She literally said that she has been informed by her friends of the harm of her tweets. At this point, you're arguing that she didn't say things that she actually said.

And if she apologized without feeling remorse, that's the literal definition of insincere. I'm puzzled as to why you keep arguing with the plain meaning of her words.

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However, she did also make sure in her apology to critique pro-Israel lobbyists (all the while comparing AIPAC to the NRA, etc).
WTF? This is not what she said. She criticized "the problematic role of lobbyists," and used AIPAC, the NRA, and the oil industry as examples. This isn't a critique of "pro-Israel lobbyists," it's a criticism of lobbyists, period.

Again, you're projecting just oh so much onto her comments.
  #52  
Old 02-12-2019, 12:40 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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WTF? This is not what she said. She criticized "the problematic role of lobbyists," and used AIPAC, the NRA, and the oil industry as examples. This isn't a critique of "pro-Israel lobbyists," it's a criticism of lobbyists, period.
Criticizing AIPAC is literally criticizing pro-Israel lobbyists. Why exactly do you think she included that in her apology? She added the NRA and oil industry to indicate that she's equally critical of lobbyists in the gun and fossil fuel area, and to reiterate her comments and concerns in this sphere have always been about the lobbyists.

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And if she apologized without feeling remorse
Do you not feel remorse that you made someone feel bad? Regardless of whether you think they completely misinterpreted what you said. Doesn't criticizing AIPAC in the apology do exactly what she was criticized for in the first place - indicate that pro-Israel laws are created because of pro-Israeli lobbyist money? One may say following up "I unequivocally apologize" with "At the same time," indicates that one is apologizing for the hurt other felt as opposed to the content and/or intent of the words.

And I will reiterate, even if she now personally thinks her words were anti-Semitic (which I'm not convinced), that does not mean I have to.

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 02-12-2019 at 12:44 PM.
  #53  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Do you not feel remorse that you made someone feel bad?
Usually, but not always. If, for example, someone were to attack me and I hurt them while defending myself I would not in any way feel remorse that I made them feel bad. Likewise, the same could apply in verbal disputes. If you intend to hurt someone and an apology gets you out of unpleasant consequences then yes, someone might apologize without feeling remorse or guilt
  #54  
Old 02-12-2019, 01:40 PM
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Nonsense. Condemnation of Israel is nowhere near the same thing as being antisemitic. Israel is a thuggish government that needs thrashing. It wouldn't matter if it was comprised of WASPs.
Gotcha. So if I were to say "The various governments of post-colonial Africa were failures because they were unintelligent and unable to grasp the intricacies of non-tribal civilization." I'm not being racist, I'm just condemning governments. Makes sense.

OR perhaps a different point of view is that it's entirely possible to not use racism or anti-Semitism as part of a criticism of a government, but criticisms that rely upon racist tropes or reductive reasoning that feeds upon stereotype when criticizing a government can be and is racist/anti-Semitic.
  #55  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:07 PM
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Gotcha. So if I were to say "The various governments of post-colonial Africa were failures because they were unintelligent and unable to grasp the intricacies of non-tribal civilization." I'm not being racist, I'm just condemning governments. Makes sense.
But that statement is not equivalent to what Omar stated. That version explicitly states a racist stereotype. To match that she would have had to say,

"the Israeli lobbyists due to their greedy and power hungry nature has led them to have an undue influence on US politics."

A better comparison would be something like. "The various governments of post-colonial Africa were failures because they had poor leadership."

Its possible that the speaker believes they had poor leadership because they were black, and a very sensitive person could take offense to this statement, but its also possible that the speaker is just stating a fact independent of the racial element.

Similarly, it could be that Omar thinks the Israelis are spending too much money to influence politics because she thinks they are money grubbing schemers. but it also could be because she simply thinks that as an organization their lobbying efforts are overly influential.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 02-12-2019 at 03:11 PM.
  #56  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:12 PM
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I think some of Omar's tweets can be reasonably criticized as anti-semitic, and she has (appropriately) apologized for them. I expect she'll learn to criticize certain Israeli policies while being sure to avoid any anti-semitic tropes and stereotypes, with time.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-12-2019 at 03:13 PM.
  #57  
Old 02-12-2019, 03:38 PM
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My take is that it's legitimate for Omar (or others) to question the roles of AIPAC and other lobbyist groups in influencing American policy. It crosses over the line to accuse supporters of Israel of being bought, which plays into the "Jewish money controls the world" stereotype.

Omar's controversial tweet came in response to another poisonous anti-Semitic trope, which she evidently endorsed.

'On Sunday, Omar responded to a tweet by journalist Glenn Greenwald that reads, "GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatens punishment for @IlhanMN and @RashidaTlaib over their criticisms of Israel. It's stunning how much time US political leaders spend defending a foreign nation even if it means attacking free speech rights of Americans."
Omar replied, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," followed by a musical notes emoji."


See, Jews who back Israel aren't really Americans, they're pledging loyalty to a foreign country.

In invoking Allah to help people realize that Israel has "hypnotized the world", Omar has encouraged religious bigotry.

Not good.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 02-12-2019 at 03:39 PM.
  #58  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:08 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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That gets a little complicated, however, when one realizes that Glenn Greenwald is Jewish (non-religious though).
  #59  
Old 02-12-2019, 04:57 PM
senoy senoy is offline
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That gets a little complicated, however, when one realizes that Glenn Greenwald is Jewish (non-religious though).
Not really. Racists have been pointing at Bill Cosby's 'black people are responsible for black problems' stance as evidence of white innocence for years (although less so in light of recent events.) Piggy backing on a race's self-loathers criticizing their own race does not complicate things. It's normal.
  #60  
Old 02-12-2019, 06:11 PM
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Israel is a thuggish government that needs thrashing.
Israel is a thuggish government, or Israel has a thuggish government?
  #61  
Old 02-12-2019, 09:54 PM
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I read it as her saying that people support Israel because of cash incentives. One's opponents supporting x because of cash incentives is the universal cry of the wingnut. I mean anti-semitism was not my first conclusion, I'm not sure if in this global war of Israel vs. Palestinians it is fair to assign an anti-Jewish prejudice to a pro-Palestinian activist. But she's clearly biased, and the numerous takes on her “bold stance” and standing up to moneyed interests in politics can't hide that. But they're trying.
  #62  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:21 PM
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I've read this thread (so far) and I still don't see what she said that can legitimately be criticized as anti-semitic.

To me, it boils down to this comparison. If someone complained that the NRA has an oversized influence on American politics, and she replied that it was "all about the money," that's not racist, even though the vast majority of NRA members are white folks. The NRA does have an oversized influence.

However, I think she's wrong about the money. The problem with the NRA isn't as much the money they contribute, it's about how rabid their members are about their one narrow issue. This is exactly parallel to AIPAC (which I had never heard of before today).
  #63  
Old 02-13-2019, 12:42 PM
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I've read this thread (so far) and I still don't see what she said that can legitimately be criticized as anti-semitic.
There's a long-established anti-semitic trope of Jews controlling/manipulating people and world events with money and other nefarious means. Whether on purpose or not, she touched on this trope.

When there are long-standing bigoted and hateful tropes out there, folks should be careful to avoid them, IMO, to avoid contributing in any way to that bigotry and hate. If someone is criticizing a black person, they should avoid reinforcing any long-standing white supremacist/anti-black tropes (i.e. "ape", "monkey", and even descriptors like "lazy" and "savage"), IMO.

If we had a completely stereotype/bigoted-trope-free society, then this would be unnecessary. I think it's a very small price to pay to avoid assisting bigotry and hate, since there are plenty of ways to criticize someone or some organization without reinforcing these sorts of tropes and stereotypes.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-13-2019 at 12:42 PM.
  #64  
Old 02-13-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
There's a long-established anti-semitic trope of Jews controlling/manipulating people and world events with money and other nefarious means. Whether on purpose or not, she touched on this trope.

When there are long-standing bigoted and hateful tropes out there, folks should be careful to avoid them, IMO, to avoid contributing in any way to that bigotry and hate. If someone is criticizing a black person, they should avoid reinforcing any long-standing white supremacist/anti-black tropes (i.e. "ape", "monkey", and even descriptors like "lazy" and "savage"), IMO.

If we had a completely stereotype/bigoted-trope-free society, then this would be unnecessary. I think it's a very small price to pay to avoid assisting bigotry and hate, since there are plenty of ways to criticize someone or some organization without reinforcing these sorts of tropes and stereotypes.
This is the problem I'm having, and perhaps other people are, too. I understand that there are antisemitic stereotypes around Jews and money. I would label someone's statements as antisemitic if they claimed that a Jewish person or group's only motivation was money. I would agree "well what do you expect from Jews" is antisemitic if used on a person or group who was motivated by money.

However, and this is where my problem lies, PACs use money to influence politics. That's kind of their thing. Does that have to be ignored if the PAC is advocating about Jewish or Israeli issues?

Would a better tweet have been something like, "AIPAC is a well funded lobbyist group, and because of the influence money can bring to politics, they are often able to succeed in getting the US government to follow their agenda, even when that agenda is, in my opinion, damaging to other groups who do not have well funded lobbyists groups advocating for them."
  #65  
Old 02-13-2019, 02:18 PM
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This is the problem I'm having, and perhaps other people are, too. I understand that there are antisemitic stereotypes around Jews and money. I would label someone's statements as antisemitic if they claimed that a Jewish person or group's only motivation was money. I would agree "well what do you expect from Jews" is antisemitic if used on a person or group who was motivated by money.

However, and this is where my problem lies, PACs use money to influence politics. That's kind of their thing. Does that have to be ignored if the PAC is advocating about Jewish or Israeli issues?

Would a better tweet have been something like, "AIPAC is a well funded lobbyist group, and because of the influence money can bring to politics, they are often able to succeed in getting the US government to follow their agenda, even when that agenda is, in my opinion, damaging to other groups who do not have well funded lobbyists groups advocating for them."
I don't think such a tweet would have been considered problematic. It's much more in depth, serious, and factual, rather than appearing off the cuff, and thus IMO much less likely to be confused or associated with those negative tropes.

Which is really the lesson, I think -- if one wants to make sure to avoid tweeting stuff some might reasonably see as bigoted, don't just tweet off-the-cuff things about serious and potentially fraught topics without making sure you're not playing around with, or reinforcing, bigotry.
  #66  
Old 02-13-2019, 04:47 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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I don't think AIPAC is powerful because of money. J Street gives a million times more in campaign contributions.
An underestimate, seeing that AIPAC doesn't make campaign contributions. J Street, which does, is seen as a moderate group, and strongly supports a two-state solution.
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Originally Posted by BigT
Believing Israel doesn't deserve to exist is still just about the country, not about the people.
What then do you expect to happen to all the majority Jewish inhabitants under Palestinian rule? Do they live happily ever after , or just "go back where they came from" (a bit difficult, seeing that for most it's the only country they've ever known in a land to which Jewish people have ancient ties).
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I remember reading an article about AIPAC awhile ago that gave me real pause: they seemed, like the NRA, to wield lobbyist power in a way outsize to their constituency.
I see this as the Fallacy of the Malign Lobby.

According to this fallacy, the nirvana outcome for certain policy disputes is constantly being thwarted by a lobby group (AIPAC, the NRA, AARP etc.) which defies the Will of the People due to some magical chokehold on lawmakers. This viewpoint blissfully ignores the large and committed constituencies that make possible the perceived disproportionate success of the lobby group. One also wonders why competing interests are seemingly unable to organize and fund adversarial lobby groups that would wield equal or more power.
  #67  
Old 02-13-2019, 10:39 PM
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I'm half-Jewish and nearly always end up on the Israel side of any Israel vs. Palestine debate, and I think it's a stretch to call her comment anti-semitic, and a ludicrous stretch to decry it as savagely as some have done (ie, "virulent").

As for sincerity of apologies, there are a TON of shades...

So, suppose some public figure is discussing choosing between one of various black people in some otherwise innocent context, and uses the phrase "eenie meenie miney moe", and a bunch of people point out that it didn't used to be "catch a tiger by the toe", and claim that that comment is racist, and the person who said it issues a fairly sincere-sounding apology saying "I understand how hurtful this can be, and unreservedly apologize" or something like that.

Was that apology sincere?

Here are some possibilities:
(1) The public figure had never before heard that connection, and they're thinking "gee-ZUS these PC idiots are stretching, because that's some BS", but they know that it's de rigeur to apologize, so they apologize
(2) The public figure had never before heard that connection, and they're thinking "huh, I did not know that, and frankly it seems like a weak connection to me, but I know these people are sincere, and I do regret causing them pain, so I will apologize"
(3) The public figure had never before heard that connection, and they're thinking "wow, learn something new every day, I can totally see how inappropriate and hurtful that was, I will do my best never to use that phrasing again"
(4) The public figure had heard that connection at some point, but it had slipped their mind, but now they remember, and their reaction is any of (1) or (2) or (3)
(5) The public figure is chuckling inwardly because they know that they successfully dog whistled some racism to their racist supporters, but is apologizing anyhow in order to appease the SJWs

And a zillion shades in between.


So... who knows?
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  #68  
Old 02-13-2019, 11:29 PM
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Another possibility is that the public figure has so internalized the stereotype that they no longer recognize it as a problem, but merely assume it's truth.
  #69  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:55 AM
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'On Sunday, Omar responded to a tweet by journalist Glenn Greenwald that reads, "GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatens punishment for @IlhanMN and @RashidaTlaib over their criticisms of Israel. It's stunning how much time US political leaders spend defending a foreign nation even if it means attacking free speech rights of Americans."
Omar replied, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," followed by a musical notes emoji."


See, Jews who back Israel aren't really Americans, they're pledging loyalty to a foreign country.
American politicians are required to publicly support a foreign country. Anyone who criticizes that country risks being labeled a bigot. I'm risking being labeled a bigot for suggesting that there's something wrong with this arrangement.

Ultimately, bigotry is about "otherness". The group you're bigoted against are different from everybody else, which makes them scary, dangerous, or inferior. Suggesting that a group is using money to influence American politics isn't different, it's exactly what everybody does.

Suggesting that Jews use money and lobbyists to influence our politicians doesn't mean they're a secret cabal pulling the puppet strings of the world, it means they're exactly like every other group trying to get the things they want.
  #70  
Old 02-14-2019, 07:56 AM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Suggesting that Jews use money and lobbyists to influence our politicians doesn't mean they're a secret cabal pulling the puppet strings of the world,
One would have to be blithely unaware of modern history and the vast array of conspiracy theories dependent upon this trope to not see a special significance in such accusations.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 02-14-2019 at 07:56 AM.
  #71  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:11 AM
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First of all, speaking as someone who was born and raised Jewish, being critical of Israel is not the same as being anti-semitic. Bigotry is about treating all people of a specific group as if they are the same, whether it is Jews, Israelis, or Americans. If I disagree with a specific action or actions of Israel, everyone should understand that I'm being critical of their government, and it doesn't rise to the level of bigotry. If I criticise Israeli lobbyists, again, that does not rise to the level of bigotry.

There are people who support Israel for their own religious reasons, and that's simply superstition. I'm talking specifically about certain evangelicals who see Israel as part of Christian prophecy: https://www.vox.com/2017/12/12/16761...p-evangelicals This is nothing new -- I first learned about it during during the rise to power of the religious right. This has very little to do with money. That said, not everyone understands this link between Israel and evangelicals, so I can understand the mistake.

Not all Jews support Israel. Not all Israeli Jews support the actions of the Israeli government.
  #72  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak View Post
American politicians are required to publicly support a foreign country. Anyone who criticizes that country risks being labeled a bigot. I'm risking being labeled a bigot for suggesting that there's something wrong with this arrangement.

Ultimately, bigotry is about "otherness". The group you're bigoted against are different from everybody else, which makes them scary, dangerous, or inferior. Suggesting that a group is using money to influence American politics isn't different, it's exactly what everybody does.

Suggesting that Jews use money and lobbyists to influence our politicians doesn't mean they're a secret cabal pulling the puppet strings of the world, it means they're exactly like every other group trying to get the things they want.
It's this sort of conflation of American Jews (or Jews in general) with Israel, the Israeli government, and/or certain Israeli government policies; along with the singling out of Jews as especially worthy of some sort of criticism in terms of using money and lobbyists to influence politicians and events, that slots very cleanly into the various anti-semitic tropes and conspiracy theories that have thrived for decades and even centuries.
  #73  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:41 AM
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The thing is, I don't see that accusing a group of people of using money to lobby politicians can be described as "special" "singling out" or "especially worthy". It's just what people do.
  #74  
Old 02-14-2019, 09:13 AM
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The thing is, I don't see that accusing a group of people of using money to lobby politicians can be described as "special" "singling out" or "especially worthy". It's just what people do.
If you want to accuse a person who happens to be Jewish of doing something nefarious, go right ahead. But if you accuse "Jews" in general of doing so, then you're right smack in the middle of anti-semitic territory.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 02-14-2019 at 09:14 AM.
  #75  
Old 02-14-2019, 11:38 AM
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FWIW I think there is another broad context to keep in mind, keeping a bunch of different cats all herded in the same tent, through 2020 at least, is going require some sensitivity to each others' fears and sensitivities. American Jews are fairly small in numbers but are still of importance to a Democratic campaign, and far beyond a few of them donating the Benjamins baby. As a group they are (and speaking as one, I am) very willing to entertain criticism of the current government in Israel and its policies. And there are anti-Semitic tropes with deep history and harms. One may have been ignorant that Black face was hurtful and one can be ignorant of anti-Semitic tropes, excusable maybe for the common Joe, but once one is a politician you have to reduce that ignorance fast and deal with your past ignorance well. Jewish-American Democrats, many if not most anyway, will be fine with criticisms of Israeli policies that steer away from the tropes.

For all the areas that we may or may not disagree with each other, have the debates with respect for each other and in ways that do not undermine circling our wagons together at the end of the day.

I give kudos to this politician for owning up to her ignorance quickly. She will continue to a voice criticizing Israeli policies and American policies that she (and many others) feel is akin to giving a drunk Israeli government keys to the car, and she should. And from here she will likely do so more effectively.
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:03 PM
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I don't think her comment was antisemitic at all, and Americans should be more critical of Israel than we usually are. However, Twitter is not the best medium for that purpose, and that's especially true for a Somali-born freshman congresswoman.
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:59 PM
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I think Muslim Congresswoman, Ilhan Omar is, was, and will be anti-Semitic. People like Ilhan Omar can be as critical of Israel, and Jews, as much as they chose to be. Maybe the voters will take notice next time? Of course, she will always have the opportunity to apologize for her statements when it's politically expedient for her to do so. Her apology would have been more believable if Ilhan Omar had just said that she was sorry she had been caught being anti-Semitic.
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:40 PM
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I think Muslim Congresswoman, Ilhan Omar is, was, and will be anti-Semitic. ...
And here we see a demonstration of the desire of those of the Right (and the Russian trolls will too) to stoke anything that may be divisive among Ds.

We must be prepared to for many more attempts to fracture us. Preventing it will require conscious effort to not take the bait that will be put out again and again.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:03 PM
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FWIW I think there is another broad context to keep in mind, keeping a bunch of different cats all herded in the same tent, through 2020 at least, is going require some sensitivity to each others' fears and sensitivities. American Jews are fairly small in numbers but are still of importance to a Democratic campaign, and far beyond a few of them donating the Benjamins baby. As a group they are (and speaking as one, I am) very willing to entertain criticism of the current government in Israel and its policies. And there are anti-Semitic tropes with deep history and harms. One may have been ignorant that Black face was hurtful and one can be ignorant of anti-Semitic tropes, excusable maybe for the common Joe, but once one is a politician you have to reduce that ignorance fast and deal with your past ignorance well. Jewish-American Democrats, many if not most anyway, will be fine with criticisms of Israeli policies that steer away from the tropes.

For all the areas that we may or may not disagree with each other, have the debates with respect for each other and in ways that do not undermine circling our wagons together at the end of the day.

I give kudos to this politician for owning up to her ignorance quickly. She will continue to a voice criticizing Israeli policies and American policies that she (and many others) feel is akin to giving a drunk Israeli government keys to the car, and she should. And from here she will likely do so more effectively.
Well said. It would be sad if Dems lost much-needed votes due to valid (if careless) criticism of Israel's government by individual D lawmakers being perceived as party-wide animus toward Jews in general. Fortunately, most of us don't automatically equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:15 PM
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And here we see a demonstration of the desire of those of the Right (and the Russian trolls will too) to stoke anything that may be divisive among Ds.

We must be prepared to for many more attempts to fracture us. Preventing it will require conscious effort to not take the bait that will be put out again and again.
Hehehehe. The biggest problem faced by the Democrat Party in 2020 will be corralling all of the yellow dog democrats, hate groups, socialists, left-wing loonies, independents, race-based identity bigots, and whoever else is out there, behind one Presidential candidate. The current list of potential Democrat Party contenders doesn't seem to be drawing all that much interest.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:48 PM
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Hehehehe. The biggest problem faced by the Democrat Party in 2020 will be corralling all of the yellow dog democrats, hate groups, socialists, left-wing loonies, independents, race-based identity bigots, and whoever else is out there, behind one Presidential candidate. The current list of potential Democrat Party contenders doesn't seem to be drawing all that much interest.
Meh. You can keep your hate groups and race-based identity bigots. They's yours uncontested. I'll take the independents through left-wing loonies as a big enough slice! And yes keeping them all together will be a challenge. Early yet to see who excites.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:55 PM
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Hehehehe. The biggest problem faced by the Democrat Party in 2020 will be corralling all of the yellow dog democrats, hate groups, socialists, left-wing loonies, independents, race-based identity bigots, and whoever else is out there, behind one Presidential candidate. The current list of potential Democrat Party contenders doesn't seem to be drawing all that much interest.
What a ridiculous hijack.
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  #83  
Old 02-15-2019, 10:25 AM
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Hehehehe. The biggest problem faced by the Democrat Party in 2020 will be corralling all of the yellow dog democrats, hate groups, socialists, left-wing loonies, independents, race-based identity bigots, and whoever else is out there, behind one Presidential candidate. The current list of potential Democrat Party contenders doesn't seem to be drawing all that much interest.
What's the deal with the far right misstating the name of the party? To me, it just reflects badly on the person saying it.
  #84  
Old 02-15-2019, 10:29 AM
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What's the deal with the far right misstating the name of the party? To me, it just reflects badly on the person saying it.
It's a deliberate slur meant to denigrate the party and its supporters. I've asked this particular poster many times to refer to the party by its actual name rather than this deliberate slur, but he's always refused.
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Old 02-15-2019, 10:40 AM
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It's a deliberate slur meant to denigrate the party and its supporters. I've asked this particular poster many times to refer to the party by its actual name rather than this deliberate slur, but he's always refused.
I'm not sure that it's a slur though. It's more of a way to make the name of the party more neutral rather than make the name deliberately negative. There's nothing negative about being called a Democrat. So a 'Democrat Party' isn't negative, it just removes the positiveness of 'Democratic' a name which seems to imply that other parties are not. If I were to name a party 'The Morally Correct Defenders against Evil Party' It wouldn't necessarily be a slur if someone chooses not to say 'Vote against the Morally Correct Defenders Against Evil and vote for me instead!' and instead says 'Vote against the MCDE'
  #86  
Old 02-15-2019, 10:47 AM
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And here we see a demonstration of the desire of those of the Right (and the Russian trolls will too) to stoke anything that may be divisive among Ds.

We must be prepared to for many more attempts to fracture us. Preventing it will require conscious effort to not take the bait that will be put out again and again.
More importantly, we should be prepared to call out intolerance and bigotry without fearing that the Other Side will take advantage of kerfuffles like this.

The rapidity with which a number of Democratic leaders denounced Omar's statements is heartening. The great majority of American Jews (whatever their views on Israel) support Democratic/progressive candidates, and I don't see that changing much anytime soon.

I'm on record here as calling for the curtailment of U.S. support to Israel's military until it agrees to an indefinite halt on expanding housing in terrritory that will likely be part of a future Palestinian state, so I'm far from an open-ended backer of Israel. Lots of people make valid critiques of that country without falling into veiled or overt bigotry, and should always keep a wary eye on those who do.
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Old 02-15-2019, 11:53 AM
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What's the deal with the far right misstating the name of the party? To me, it just reflects badly on the person saying it.
Speak severely to Republicans
And beat them when they sleazes
They only do this to annoy
Because they know it teases


(after Lewis Carroll)
  #88  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
It's a deliberate slur meant to denigrate the party and its supporters. I've asked this particular poster many times to refer to the party by its actual name rather than this deliberate slur, but he's always refused.
Speaking as a life long Democrat, I don't feel remotely denigrated by "Democrat Party," and I'm honestly at a loss as to how I possibly could be.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:24 PM
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Speaking as a life long Democrat, I don't feel remotely denigrated by "Democrat Party," and I'm honestly at a loss as to how I possibly could be.
You can read about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(epithet)

It's a deliberate effort to needle (I'd call it real-world trolling). Just a little tiny thing, and also a little tiny thing for me to say "that's shitty and you should stop doing it". YMMV.

Last edited by Miller; 02-15-2019 at 01:28 PM. Reason: Fixed link
  #90  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
You can read about it here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(epithet)

It's a deliberate effort to needle (I'd call it real-world trolling). Just a little tiny thing, and also a little tiny thing for me to say "that's shitty and you should stop doing it". YMMV.
No, I'm familiar with the argument.

It's just that it's a really stupid argument.
  #91  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:30 PM
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No, I'm familiar with the argument.

It's just that it's a really stupid argument.
Think of it like someone saying "Barack HUSEIN Obama." It tells you a lot about the person.
  #92  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:32 PM
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No, I'm familiar with the argument.

It's just that it's a really stupid argument.
I disagree, but whatever. You don't have to feel the same way.
  #93  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:34 PM
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Think of it like someone saying "Barack HUSEIN Obama." It tells you a lot about the person.
Honestly, I think it tells you more about the person complaining.
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Old 02-15-2019, 01:41 PM
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Honestly, I think it tells you more about the person complaining.
What does it say about the person who complains about others complaining about it?
  #95  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:44 PM
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No, I'm familiar with the argument.

It's just that it's a really stupid argument.
I'm curious: are you saying it's too slight to get worked up over— a position with which I agree— or denying that it is [mis]used intentionally by [many] Republicans specifically to avoid associating the Democratic party with democracy/democratic principles?

IOW, what exactly is the "argument" that you find stupid?
  #96  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:47 PM
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My take is that it's legitimate for Omar (or others) to question the roles of AIPAC and other lobbyist groups in influencing American policy. It crosses over the line to accuse supporters of Israel of being bought, which plays into the "Jewish money controls the world" stereotype.

Omar's controversial tweet came in response to another poisonous anti-Semitic trope, which she evidently endorsed.

'On Sunday, Omar responded to a tweet by journalist Glenn Greenwald that reads, "GOP Leader Kevin McCarthy threatens punishment for @IlhanMN and @RashidaTlaib over their criticisms of Israel. It's stunning how much time US political leaders spend defending a foreign nation even if it means attacking free speech rights of Americans."
Omar replied, "It's all about the Benjamins baby," followed by a musical notes emoji."


See, Jews who back Israel aren't really Americans, they're pledging loyalty to a foreign country.

In invoking Allah to help people realize that Israel has "hypnotized the world", Omar has encouraged religious bigotry.

Not good.
emphasis mine
Is the bolded sentence from Omar or Jackmannii?

So if I support any country other than the USA I'm a traitor?

Last edited by CelticKnot; 02-15-2019 at 01:48 PM.
  #97  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:04 PM
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emphasis mine
Is the bolded sentence from Omar or Jackmannii?

So if I support any country other than the USA I'm a traitor?
That's not from Omar, unless I'm missing something.
  #98  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:15 PM
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Speaking as a life long Democrat, I don't feel remotely denigrated by "Democrat Party," and I'm honestly at a loss as to how I possibly could be.
I personally don't care whether the 'ic' suffix is present or not.

But some people — including at least one still posting at SDMB — proudly omit the 'ic' just because they delight in giving offense. I find it quite annoying to realize that the enemies of American democracy stoop to such childish measures, and that such intellectual sloth succeeds in gulling 35% of the voting populace.
  #99  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:19 PM
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That's not from Omar, unless I'm missing something.
Unless Omar has access to the same raised eyebrow emoji that we have here.
  #100  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
I'm curious: are you saying it's too slight to get worked up over— a position with which I agree— or denying that it is [mis]used intentionally by [many] Republicans specifically to avoid associating the Democratic party with democracy/democratic principles?

IOW, what exactly is the "argument" that you find stupid?
Mostly the former, but also a pinch of the latter. "Members of this group are called X, therefore, it's the X group," is a pretty common construction in English, and I suspect the majority of times this is used by Republicans, it's nothing more nefarious than that. To the extent that it is used as a deliberate insult, it's such a hilariously toothless attempt at insult that I'm genuinely baffled that anyone even notices it, let alone is legitimately upset about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
What does it say about the person who complains about others complaining about it?
Mostly, that they're tired of watching other liberals play into the stereotype that we get upset over inconsequential and/or imaginary slights, particularly when it gives conservatives cover to dismiss instances of genuinely insulting terminology as left-wing over-sensitivity.

Last edited by Miller; 02-15-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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