Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:42 PM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
I have never understood the bad thing about being 3-5 in the Finals. How many guys have won three Finals at all?

I mean, losing the Finals means you won three playoff series. 3-5 is objectively superior to 3-0. LeBron's playoff record may not be as good as Jordan's but it's awfully elite.

The idea James is somehow lacking in drive to win is ridiculous. He's got three rings and was MVP in all of them, and he's won a shitload of series and games. James scores more points per game in playoff games than regular season games. He clearly elevates his game.
Nothing wrong with being 3-5 in the finals...if you're talking about a great NBA player. But we're not talking about great. We're talking about the greatest. The baddest mofo to ever do it. And 3-5 puts him behind Jordan, Magic, Kobe, etc.
  #52  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:57 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
Bird and his Celtics teams and The Bad Boys are all time great teams. Some of the best to ever do it. So of course Jordan needed time to learn and grow to be able to beat them. The fact that he went home every summer and came back stronger until he was strong enough to climb all the way to the top of the mountain is a testament to not just the greatness of Jordan but the greatness of the opponents he had to beat.

You win a championship against a Dirk Nowitzki and nobodies gonna care. You beat Magic/Bird/Isiah and everyone's gonna remember.
Narrator: Dirk Nowitzki won the championship against Lebron. Lebron's 3 championships came against young Durant, old Duncan (who came back to kick LBJ ass next year - thanks Kawhi!), and Curry (73 win team).
  #53  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:33 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 13,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omniscient View Post
He'd have been hurt a lot more. He'd have been knicked up and slowed down a lot more. He would have been running and lifting, not doing yoga and whatever other new regimens these guys do today that keeps them healthier than they ever were back then. He probably would have been carrying a little unnecessary weight. He'd have been forced to play in the paint a lot more thereby taking more punishment and needing the mass. There's a shitload of NBA players who are 6'9" and 250....not sure why you think that makes him special, it that he's that big playing in space which makes him rare and that's largely due to this era's trends.
Put LeBron on a team with Karl Malone and that takes two titles away from Jordan's Bulls. Put Lebron on a team where the Bulls have to defend a two-headed monster the same way opposing teams had to defend against theirs, with illegal defenses and rules that favored half-court ball, and Jordan's impressive statistics would still be impressive but not nearly as impressive as they turned out to be. On the flip side, let's see how many titles a team like the Bulls would have won if they'd had to run up and down the court and constantly rotate to try to stop the open three against a team with three or four consistently accurate three point shooters. They wouldn't have won six - that's almost certain.

Jordan played when the game was more physical, but that also devolved into just bad basketball that was painful to watch. I mean I suppose it was entertaining to watch the Bulls and Knicks and (later the Knicks and Heat) turn basketball into on-the-court tag-team wrestling matches, but it was a crap product to watch, and the players became less skilled over time. Half-court basketball, isn't basketball. There's a reason why the U.S. started losing international competitions and later committed to developing a better game that emphasized returning to the fundamentals of ball movement and shooting accuracy.

Last edited by asahi; 01-24-2020 at 01:35 PM.
  #54  
Old 01-24-2020, 02:12 PM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,694
I did not know Jordan was on the rules committee. Amazing.
  #55  
Old 01-24-2020, 06:16 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 13,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
I did not know Jordan was on the rules committee. Amazing.
Never said he was.

What's your point big boy?
  #56  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:18 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
Bird and his Celtics teams and The Bad Boys are all time great teams. Some of the best to ever do it. So of course Jordan needed time to learn and grow to be able to beat them. The fact that he went home every summer and came back stronger until he was strong enough to climb all the way to the top of the mountain is a testament to not just the greatness of Jordan but the greatness of the opponents he had to beat.

You win a championship against a Dirk Nowitzki and nobodies gonna care. You beat Magic/Bird/Isiah and everyone's gonna remember.
So you really are saying that he was materially better in year 7 than in year 6? No, you have it backwards, LeBron James passed Jordan a long time ago in terms of overall basketball ability and acumen. The fact that he didn’t win as many rings is a random outcome. There is no way you could possibly think that LeBron wouldn’t have been at least as successful as Jordan were you to switch them on the Bulls. This is not an insult to Jordan to any way.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #57  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:36 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
So you really are saying that he was materially better in year 7 than in year 6? No, you have it backwards, LeBron James passed Jordan a long time ago in terms of overall basketball ability and acumen. The fact that he didn’t win as many rings is a random outcome. There is no way you could possibly think that LeBron wouldn’t have been at least as successful as Jordan were you to switch them on the Bulls. This is not an insult to Jordan to any way.
Sorry for the late reply...

- Jordan had to learn how to overcome "The Jordan Rules" employed by the Pistons which required him to improve his physical strength and polish his skills until they shined. I guess that means I do think he got better in year 7 vs previous years.

- And there aren't enough words you can use to convince me Lebron is more skilled and has a better basketball IQ than Kobe much less Jordan. I will acknowledge he is an athletic phenom but he relies on his athletic prowess to overpower is opponents instead of being more skilled. That is unless you consider traveling and offensive fouls skills.

- IMHO, in a 7 game series the best team will almost always win. The fact that Lebron has lost so many final series is not some random outcome, it is proof positive that his teams weren't good enough to call themselves champions.

- If you swap Jordan with Lebron then the Pistons would have beat the shit out of him and intimidated him to the point where he would be sitting next to Scottie on the bench complaining about "migraines." Or do you think Lebron would have no problems with defenders like Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Oakley, etc. in a league that allowed you to do anything short of landing a punch? Sure the Bulls might have gone on to win a ring or 2 during that time period provided Magic, Isiah, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, etc were all having an off year at the same time.

- Now if you swap Jordan onto anyone of the teams Lebron lead to the finals, how do you think His Airness would perform in a league that doesn't allow hand checking and hard fouls?
  #58  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:56 AM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
Nothing wrong with being 3-5 in the finals...if you're talking about a great NBA player. But we're not talking about great. We're talking about the greatest. The baddest mofo to ever do it. And 3-5 puts him behind Jordan, Magic, Kobe, etc.
Yes, Magic won five rings, and LeBron won three. I am totally unconvinced that establishes Magic as the greater player. It's a flawed way of measuring it because it ignores the imapct of the other players on the team.

If LeBron had won NO titles, that would be compelling evidence his greatness had a bit of a hole on it. Frankly, though, the difference between five and three isn't that big of a deal.

Just measuring guys by rings won will inevitably lead you down to preposterous conclusions. Tom Heinsohn won seven rings but he wasn't a greater player than Michael Jordan. Stacey King has more rings than Wilt Chamberlain, and Serge Ibaka has more rings than Karl Malone.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #59  
Old 01-27-2020, 01:35 PM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Yes, Magic won five rings, and LeBron won three. I am totally unconvinced that establishes Magic as the greater player. It's a flawed way of measuring it because it ignores the imapct of the other players on the team.

If LeBron had won NO titles, that would be compelling evidence his greatness had a bit of a hole on it. Frankly, though, the difference between five and three isn't that big of a deal.

Just measuring guys by rings won will inevitably lead you down to preposterous conclusions. Tom Heinsohn won seven rings but he wasn't a greater player than Michael Jordan. Stacey King has more rings than Wilt Chamberlain, and Serge Ibaka has more rings than Karl Malone.
Come on man, you know damn well we're not just counting rings so I won't even bother to address that.

There is no one statistic or metric that can be used to accurately compare players from different generations or eras. In my world, you must first be better than the vast majority of your contemporaries before you can be included in the greatest of all time conversation. In short, you need to be The Man on your team for an extended period of time and your ring count needs to be greater than (or at least equal to) your peers before you can be elevated to comparisons between the all time greats. Lebron's ring count is greater than or equal to his peers so he gets included in the convo but he falls well short of the top of the list as his resume is a lot weaker than some of the best to ever do it.

I am totally convinced that Magic's 5 rings proves he is/was better than Lebron. I mean how many guys have won 5 championships while being The Man in any sport? And Jordan's 6 puts him in a class by himself (in the modern era).

Last edited by BeagleJesus; 01-27-2020 at 01:36 PM.
  #60  
Old 01-27-2020, 03:41 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
Come on man, you know damn well we're not just counting rings so I won't even bother to address that.

There is no one statistic or metric that can be used to accurately compare players from different generations or eras. In my world, you must first be better than the vast majority of your contemporaries before you can be included in the greatest of all time conversation. In short, you need to be The Man on your team for an extended period of time and your ring count needs to be greater than (or at least equal to) your peers before you can be elevated to comparisons between the all time greats. Lebron's ring count is greater than or equal to his peers so he gets included in the convo but he falls well short of the top of the list as his resume is a lot weaker than some of the best to ever do it.

I am totally convinced that Magic's 5 rings proves he is/was better than Lebron. I mean how many guys have won 5 championships while being The Man in any sport? And Jordan's 6 puts him in a class by himself (in the modern era).
So then you should agree that Kobe (God rest his soul) isn't actually in the conversation. He was only "The Man" for 2 of his rings. IIRC, Shaq was for the first 3.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #61  
Old 01-27-2020, 03:59 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
In my world, you must first be better than the vast majority of your contemporaries before you can be included in the greatest of all time conversation. In short, you need to be The Man on your team for an extended period of time and your ring count needs to be greater than (or at least equal to) your peers before you can be elevated to comparisons between the all time greats. Lebron's ring count is greater than or equal to his peers so he gets included in the convo but he falls well short of the top of the list as his resume is a lot weaker than some of the best to ever do it.
It's not "a lot weaker." That just isn't true.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #62  
Old 01-27-2020, 04:34 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
It's not "a lot weaker." That just isn't true.
Were the 5 times LeBron lost in the finals all his teammates fault? And the 3 he won only because of him?

Because I heard it stated earlier in this thread that Jordan only won 6 because of his teammates and the system/coaches.

I don't see how it can be both ways. Either you are responsible for your record or you are not. If LeBron isn't at fault for the 5 he's lost then he shouldn't get credit for the 3 he won.

There is recency bias for LeBron. He's the latest great player, but every latest great player can't just automatically be the GOAT.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #63  
Old 01-27-2020, 04:51 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Were the 5 times LeBron lost in the finals all his teammates fault? And the 3 he won only because of him?
It's not an either/or thing. You aren't thinking along the margins.

Again, though, it has to be pointed out that reaching the Finals isn't a failure. How many players in modern times have even been in the Finals eight times? Would you rather he be 3-0 in the Finals?

Quote:
=Because I heard it stated earlier in this thread that Jordan only won 6 because of his teammates and the system/coaches.
Was the person who stated that using the screen name "RickJay"?
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #64  
Old 01-27-2020, 04:53 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Were the 5 times LeBron lost in the finals all his teammates fault? And the 3 he won only because of him?

Because I heard it stated earlier in this thread that Jordan only won 6 because of his teammates and the system/coaches.

I don't see how it can be both ways. Either you are responsible for your record or you are not. If LeBron isn't at fault for the 5 he's lost then he shouldn't get credit for the 3 he won.

There is recency bias for LeBron. He's the latest great player, but every latest great player can't just automatically be the GOAT.
You’re missing the point. To the extent that we’re using LeBron’s lack of rings as part of the argument, I can point to the many failures of Jordan as well. Jordan would never be able to elevate the teams that LeBron has led. We know this, because Jordan couldn’t even make the Finals with far superior teams than LEBron has ever had. Plus he and Pippen had 3 years together to gel as a cohesive force. You couldn’t even name the 2nd best player on the first Cavs team that he took to the Finals. Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were 8 time All-NBA first team defenders. Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches of all-time.

Even in Miami, Wade was excellent, but past his prime, and Bosh never became a great player. Also, just look at the records of LeBron’s teams before he got there, while he was there, and after he left. When Jordan stepped away, the Bulls were still contenders and barely lost to the Knicks. Jordan was no doubt a truly great player. But LeBron is just simply better in every facet of the game except straight scoring.

When talking about LeBron’s “manufactured” titles, remember that the Bulls lost to Shaq’s Magic, which caused them to bring in Rodman, a man responsible for keeping the Bulls down for years.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #65  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:01 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
You’re missing the point. To the extent that we’re using LeBron’s lack of rings as part of the argument, I can point to the many failures of Jordan as well. Jordan would never be able to elevate the teams that LeBron has led. We know this, because Jordan couldn’t even make the Finals with far superior teams than LEBron has ever had. Plus he and Pippen had 3 years together to gel as a cohesive force. You couldn’t even name the 2nd best player on the first Cavs team that he took to the Finals. Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were 8 time All-NBA first team defenders. Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches of all-time.

Even in Miami, Wade was excellent, but past his prime, and Bosh never became a great player. Also, just look at the records of LeBron’s teams before he got there, while he was there, and after he left. When Jordan stepped away, the Bulls were still contenders and barely lost to the Knicks. Jordan was no doubt a truly great player. But LeBron is just simply better in every facet of the game except straight scoring.

When talking about LeBron’s “manufactured” titles, remember that the Bulls lost to Shaq’s Magic, which caused them to bring in Rodman, a man responsible for keeping the Bulls down for years.
Like I said, Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates? Nonsense. Motivated reasoning. The Heatles had other players besides the big three signing up for cheap just to play with them. Cough Ray Allen cough. Then Cleveland 2.0 with number one overall pick Kyrie, Kevin Love, JR Smith etc. You are trying to have it both ways. If you discredit Jordan because of Pippen (what did he do in Portland again?) but then claim LeBron never had any good teams? How can anyone be expected to buy this revisionist stuff?
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes

Last edited by Airbeck; 01-27-2020 at 05:02 PM.
  #66  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:06 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Like I said, Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates?....
Where did I say this?
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #67  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:08 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
It's not an either/or thing. You aren't thinking along the margins.

Again, though, it has to be pointed out that reaching the Finals isn't a failure. How many players in modern times have even been in the Finals eight times? Would you rather he be 3-0 in the Finals?
The 90s Buffalo Bills went to 4 straight superbowls the 1970s Steelers also went to 4. Which team do you rank higher in greatness factor? Which team to you figure would win head to head? Where would you put your money?
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #68  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:09 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
Where did I say this?
What? That was the entire gist of your post. The one I was replying to.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #69  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:19 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
You said:

-Jordan could never have elevated any of LeBron's teams that he elevated
-Jordan lost with far superior teammates than LeBron has ever played with
- You credit Pippen, Rodman and Jackson with the 6 titles saying that they are the reason he won them

So that adds up to - Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates.

Which is absurd on its face.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes

Last edited by Airbeck; 01-27-2020 at 05:20 PM.
  #70  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:00 PM
zamboniracer is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Above the Uecker seats.
Posts: 5,005
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
Jordan was the man who single-handedly (yes, yes team sport) ended Bird's, Isiah's and Magic's championship eras. And he did it in that order.
That's hilarious. You don't think maybe Father Time had something to do with it too, as Bird, Thomas and Johnson had already dominated the 1980s and so were wearing down due to attrition by the time Jordan's Bulls took over
  #71  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:54 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
You said:

-Jordan could never have elevated any of LeBron's teams that he elevated
-Jordan lost with far superior teammates than LeBron has ever played with
- You credit Pippen, Rodman and Jackson with the 6 titles saying that they are the reason he won them

So that adds up to - Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates.

Which is absurd on its face.
This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #72  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:33 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
The 90s Buffalo Bills went to 4 straight superbowls the 1970s Steelers also went to 4. Which team do you rank higher in greatness factor? Which team to you figure would win head to head? Where would you put your money?
4-0 is way better than 0-4. LeBron isn't 0-4, though, and he is not a team.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #73  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:48 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
The 90s Buffalo Bills went to 4 straight superbowls the 1970s Steelers also went to 4. Which team do you rank higher in greatness factor? Which team to you figure would win head to head? Where would you put your money?
So who are the players you’re comparing here?
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #74  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:39 PM
Chisquirrel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio.
Are you arguing you DIDN'T say those things?

Because it's pretty easy to see what you wrote.
  #75  
Old 01-28-2020, 05:50 AM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
Are you arguing you DIDN'T say those things?

Because it's pretty easy to see what you wrote.
What things are you referring to? What you quoted?
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #76  
Old 01-28-2020, 06:44 AM
Snarky_Kong is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio.
538's analytics method says Jordan was better (by the thinnest of margins) and that was linked on page 1.
  #77  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:21 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
So then you should agree that Kobe (God rest his soul) isn't actually in the conversation. He was only "The Man" for 2 of his rings. IIRC, Shaq was for the first 3.
I think Kobe was The Man for 3 of his 5 championships. Obviously the 1A/1B dynamic between Shaq and Kobe is difficult to break down due to the immense talent of both guys but I think Kobe had finally overtaken Shaq as The Man (or 1A) on the Lakers by the third championship.

FYI...I do think the fact that Kobe wasn't The Man for all 5 does tarnish his position in the greatest of all time debate and firmly places him (somewhere) behind Magic in the rankings.
  #78  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:33 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
It's not an either/or thing. You aren't thinking along the margins.

Again, though, it has to be pointed out that reaching the Finals isn't a failure. How many players in modern times have even been in the Finals eight times? Would you rather he be 3-0 in the Finals?
I totally agree that reaching the finals and losing is not a failure for a great player. But once again I would like to point out that were not talking about great. We're talking about the greatest and losing on the biggest stage more often than not does not place you high in the rankings.

If memory serves, every time Lebron faced a quality squad in the lower rounds of the playoffs (like the 2008-2010 Celtics) he got his ass handed to him. And every time he made the finals he had a cake walk through all the scrub teams of the east. And once in the finals he frequently got his ass handed to him by the superior squads from the west (3-5). How many scrub teams did Lebron plow through on his frequent trips to finals while he was in the east? Better question, how many quality, top notch teams did Lebron have to beat to reach the finals?
  #79  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:40 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
Even in Miami, Wade was excellent, but past his prime, and Bosh never became a great player. Also, just look at the records of LeBron’s teams before he got there, while he was there, and after he left. When Jordan stepped away, the Bulls were still contenders and barely lost to the Knicks. Jordan was no doubt a truly great player. But LeBron is just simply better in every facet of the game except straight scoring.
Come on man! Wade, Bosh and Lebron were all smack dab in the middle of their prime years and at the height of their abilities when they grouped up. That's the main reason why everyone was giving them shit about the move.
  #80  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:45 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio.
But that was the argument you made. No cult is needed to see the flaws in it, JJ.
  #81  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:47 AM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
You said:

-Jordan could never have elevated any of LeBron's teams that he elevated
-Jordan lost with far superior teammates than LeBron has ever played with
- You credit Pippen, Rodman and Jackson with the 6 titles saying that they are the reason he won them

So that adds up to - Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates.

Which is absurd on its face.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio.
Sorry man but I agree with Airbeck on this one. Your arguments basically boil down to Jordan was good because of his coach and team while Lebron is the reason his teams were good.

Since this is all opinion based I feel your position is valid I just disagree.
  #82  
Old 01-28-2020, 08:48 AM
JohnT's Avatar
JohnT is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 24,694
Given the question isn't about LBJ vs. MJ, but the two eras....

1. I think MJ's title runs were against far, far better competition, both in the Conference Finals and in the Finals.
2. I think LBJ's 2016 title run finished against a team better than any MJ ever faced.
3. I also think that LBJ's era is less individually competitive than MJ's era. LBJ's era spent their teen years in AAU leagues, becoming friends in the process. The players in MJ's era grew up individually, apart from each other, only competing... and meeting... each other in their college and pro years (and in the summer leagues). Point is, LeBron's era, especially since The Decision, is populated by players who frankly wanted to join with their friends and beat on the rest of the NBA. In Jordan's era? Very few came into the league as friends and nobody joined forces.

Advantage: MJ's era.

Last edited by JohnT; 01-28-2020 at 08:49 AM.
  #83  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:06 AM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snarky_Kong View Post
538's analytics method says Jordan was better (by the thinnest of margins) and that was linked on page 1.
Jordan's total career value is limited by his stepping away for the sport in the middle of his career, which basically removes two prime seasons. Had he not spent a couple of years in his hopeless quest to be a pro baseball player, He would not only have two more prime years, but maybe another ring. He also "retired" at the age of 34 despite still being an exceptionally good player (yeah, he came back with the Wizards, but wasn't the same.) If he'd just stayed in basketball, there would be no debate here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus
If memory serves, every time Lebron faced a quality squad in the lower rounds of the playoffs (like the 2008-2010 Celtics) he got his ass handed to him. And every time he made the finals he had a cake walk through all the scrub teams of the east...
I mean, I normally expect better teams to beat lesser teams. But, let's examine this with actual facts; how did James's teams fare against better or worse teams? Did James successfully elevate inferior teams to victory, or tend to play on teams that choked against inferior teams? Did he have more upsets than chokes? If he's NOT a winner, we would expect his teams to have more chokes than upsets.

Against Teams With Worse W/L Records: 27-3
Against Teams with Better W/L Records: 9-8

James has never been in a playoff series in which both teams had exactly the same record... anyway, so what we see here is that when playing inferior teams, LeBron's team wins 90% of the time. When playing superior teams, LeBron's team has actually won more than half the series (including the greatest Finals comeback of all time.) Just barely, but still, that's quite impressive. Clearly, his teams outperform their expected record in playoff series. This is a very impressive record. In effect, his teams won six more series out of 47 than would be expected by his team's actual W/L records.

How about His Airness?

Against Teams With Worse W/L Records: 27-0
Against Teams with Better W/L Records: 5-7
Tied Record: 1-0 (1998 Finals against Utah)

His Airness was even BETTER against inferior teams, never losing a series. However, he wasn't as impressive against superior teams - 5-7 is still great, of course, especially in the NBA, but it's not 9-8. Jordan's teams won five more series out of 39 than would be expected by their W/L record.

I mean, it looks to me like both men absolutely made their teams even better in the playoffs than they did in the regular season.

I was going to do this for some other all time greats like Magic but it takes a long time.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!

Last edited by RickJay; 01-28-2020 at 09:08 AM.
  #84  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:09 AM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
The argument I made was that Jordan’s success in winning 6 titles was heavily dependent on Pippen, coach Jackson and a consistent group of role players behind him. In no way did I suggest that Jordan ONLY won because of them. Clearly they wouldn’t have won without him; it would be silly to suggest otherwise. He was by far the best player of his era, in case I didn’t make that clear.

LeBron never had a great coach, a consistent #2, or all-time great defenders to help boost his odds of winning more championships. He was stuck in Cleveland, where no one wanted to be, so he had to move. It takes time for a team to gel; you can’t throw a bunch of players together and expect them to win right away. That first Bulls championship came after 3 years of that squad being together. You can’t under-estimate this.

The idea that Jordan was a materially better player in years 7,8, and 9 versus years 4,5 and 6 cannot be supported by actual evidence.

Basketball is a team sport, and I hope no one thinks that you could have replaced Jordan’s sidekicks with any random players and still have had the same success.

Again, go back and look at the hodge podge of ne’er-do-well players that LeBron carried on his back to the playoffs and Finals. Fine, we can exclude the 4 years in Miami, since I always have mad respect for DWade. If there is really an example (besides LeBron) of a player putting a team on his back, it was Wade in the playoffs the year they beat Dallas.

There is no evidence that Jordan would have had the same success with LeBron’s supporting casts, since he didn’t get as far with far superior support.

Being a Nets fan, it is becoming increasingly apparent that Kyrie was a champion only because of LeBron. Sure, he hit some big shots against GSW, but that just shows how much LeBron elevates his teams. Again, look at the teams that LeBron joined, before, during, and after he left. The difference he makes in elevating teams and fellow players is unmatched by anyone ever.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #85  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:44 AM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio.
What, exactly, is objective about any of the points you made in your argument? Everything you stated was subjective. Everything.

This whole debate is subjective, just as every debate in any sport comparing two greats of different eras. The difference is you seem to want to assert that your subjective opinions are actually objective facts. Then when anyone brings up 6-0 vs 3-5 as an example of an objective fact, the response is just "but, their teammates and coaches!" as if that isn't right back in subjective-land, and as if you don't use different criteria to judge the two players. I'm clearly not the only one that sees this.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #86  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:51 AM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
The argument I made was that Jordan’s success in winning 6 titles was heavily dependent on Pippen, coach Jackson and a consistent group of role players behind him. In no way did I suggest that Jordan ONLY won because of them. Clearly they wouldn’t have won without him; it would be silly to suggest otherwise. He was by far the best player of his era, in case I didn’t make that clear.

LeBron never had a great coach, a consistent #2, or all-time great defenders to help boost his odds of winning more championships. He was stuck in Cleveland, where no one wanted to be, so he had to move. It takes time for a team to gel; you can’t throw a bunch of players together and expect them to win right away. That first Bulls championship came after 3 years of that squad being together. You can’t under-estimate this.

The idea that Jordan was a materially better player in years 7,8, and 9 versus years 4,5 and 6 cannot be supported by actual evidence.

Basketball is a team sport, and I hope no one thinks that you could have replaced Jordan’s sidekicks with any random players and still have had the same success.

Again, go back and look at the hodge podge of ne’er-do-well players that LeBron carried on his back to the playoffs and Finals. Fine, we can exclude the 4 years in Miami, since I always have mad respect for DWade. If there is really an example (besides LeBron) of a player putting a team on his back, it was Wade in the playoffs the year they beat Dallas.

There is no evidence that Jordan would have had the same success with LeBron’s supporting casts, since he didn’t get as far with far superior support.

Being a Nets fan, it is becoming increasingly apparent that Kyrie was a champion only because of LeBron. Sure, he hit some big shots against GSW, but that just shows how much LeBron elevates his teams. Again, look at the teams that LeBron joined, before, during, and after he left. The difference he makes in elevating teams and fellow players is unmatched by anyone ever.
All subjective. Sorry, but it is what it is. You state that LeBron elevated his teammates, but Jordan did not. Again I ask, what did Pippen do in Portland? Jordan did change in a very important way after years 4,5,6. He learned that he couldn't do it all himself when the league was crafting defenses specifically to stop him, called the Jordan Rules. He needed to learn that he had to trust his teammates, and yes, elevate them, so that teams couldn't just focus their entire defenses on him. Did any teams ever come up with the LeBron rules the way the Jordan rules existed back then? Look, we can go back and forth all day, but neither you nor I will ever get the other one to change their minds. Because its all subjective.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #87  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:00 AM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
4-0 is way better than 0-4. LeBron isn't 0-4, though, and he is not a team.
But you don't disagree that winning a title is objectively better than losing in the title game, right? Especially when we are talking about the greatest of all time, not just greatness in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
So who are the players you’re comparing here?
You are the one that keeps talking about teammates, all of a sudden now you don't want to talk about teammates? It would help if we could have solid ground to debate from instead of this shifting sand that you seem to like.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #88  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:52 AM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
...You are the one that keeps talking about teammates, all of a sudden now you don't want to talk about teammates? It would help if we could have solid ground to debate from instead of this shifting sand that you seem to like.
Quite the contrary, you've only proved my point by contrasting the Bills and Steelers. Was your point that Terry Bradshaw was a better QB than Jim Kelly? Even as a lifelong Steelers fan since 1978, I don't agree with this.

You're the one who keeps using Jordan's 6 rings as the reason why you think he's better than LeBron. I've consistently maintained that teammates, coaches and stability matter in dynasties, and that you can't give all the credit to one player.

Jordan proved that he can win playoff series and championships alongside another all-time great player or 2, and one of the greatest coaches, and after being together for years. LeBron has proved that he can with a much lower level of support, coaching and consistency. Yes, of course he still needed other players; I never said he could do it alone.

Yes, these are all subjective arguments. But when in doubt, we have to bring in objective criteria.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #89  
Old 01-28-2020, 11:06 AM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 3,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
You're the one who keeps using Jordan's 6 rings as the reason why you think he's better than LeBron. I've consistently maintained that teammates, coaches and stability matter in dynasties, and that you can't give all the credit to one player.
And yet you give all credit for LeBron's acheivements to LeBron himself, and give all blame for his shortcomings solely to his teammates. You are evaluating the 2 players with different metrics and standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
Yes, these are all subjective arguments. But when in doubt, we have to bring in objective criteria.
Unless you don't like the objective facts that are brought up that don't align with your views, such as the 538 analysis mentioned earlier, and yes 6-0 v 3-5. You use subjective opinions to try to devalue that, but it is still subjective. Numbers, stats, records, those are objective. Comparing teammates, opponents, contemporary players, coaching? Those are all completely subjective. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and they are valid, just as all opinions are valid, but don't lose sight of the fact that that's all we are really doing here, discussing our opinions. There is no objective way to prove this one way or another, especially to either of our satisfaction.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #90  
Old 01-28-2020, 11:53 AM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
But you don't disagree that winning a title is objectively better than losing in the title game, right? Especially when we are talking about the greatest of all time, not just greatness in general.
Well, sure. If LeBron was 8-0 in the Finals that would be way better than 3-5. That he is 3-5 doesn't prove to my satisfaction that he is an inferior player to Magic, Michael or anyone else. It's one data point in favor of that argument.

There is a very strange tendency in this debate (well, it's common to sports arguments) to be extremist in characterizing the other's position. When Juggernaut makes the argument that Jordan had a superior supporting cast and coaching help him win championships - something I think is obviously true - his argument is bizarrely misrepresented as suggesting that Jordan wasn't any better than his teammates. Of course, the opposite argument, which we haven't seen here but invite in enough sports fans and we absolutely would, would be that Jordan was the ONLY reason they won six rings. Both arguments are preposterous.

You have to think along the margins. Would Jordan have won six rings with the teams LeBron had? Honestly, no, he just wouldn't have. You can't seriously argue that the supporting cast means nothing at all, or else the Bulls would have won the title every year and wouldn't have had to bother to assemble good players around Jordan. But would he have won NO titles without Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson? That strikes me as being equally ridiculous, and to be honest, I am not sure that in such a circumstance he'd be any less great a player. If he'd had less capable teammates and had won 3, 4 or 5 rings instead of six, that reflects on his inferior teammates, not him. It's a team sport.

Had LeBron had better teams to play with in Cleveland, would he have won a few more rings? Quite possibly. But the opposite is true as what I just said about Mike; that would not necessarily make LeBron a greater player. Adding a better center to the 2010 Cavs maybe gives him another ring, but that doesn't make him a better player, it just means he had better teammates.

The point Jackknifed is trying to make isn't that LeBron was wholly responsible for winning titles; obviously, were he surrounded by high school players, all his teams would have gone 0-82. It's that LeBron was a greater part of his teams, on average, than Michael was, and that that might explain why he won three rings to Michael's six. I find that argument at least partially compelling because is strikes me as being visibly obvious that his Cleveland teammates were VERY inferior to Jordan's Bulls teammates. They weren't all useless turds; some were really good players. He didn't have Scottie Pippen, though.

I mean, this year LeBron is on a really strong Lakers squad. They could win the title, but if they dod there is, barring a playoff performance for the ages, no way LeBron would be as responsible for that title as he was for the three he already has. He's playing great, but goddamn that team is loaded with terrific basketball players. Anthony Davis is maybe the best teammate he's ever had (while he played with him) and they're got quality veterans all over the court. The Lakers are playing Dwight Howard OFF THE BENCH (a role he is actually doing really well in.) There is no rational way you could say LeBron winning a title with the 2020 Lakers is as much greatness credit as winning it with the 2016 Cavs.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #91  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:32 PM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Well, sure. If LeBron was 8-0 in the Finals that would be way better than 3-5. That he is 3-5 doesn't prove to my satisfaction that he is an inferior player to Magic, Michael or anyone else. It's one data point in favor of that argument.

There is a very strange tendency in this debate (well, it's common to sports arguments) to be extremist in characterizing the other's position. When Juggernaut makes the argument that Jordan had a superior supporting cast and coaching help him win championships - something I think is obviously true - his argument is bizarrely misrepresented as suggesting that Jordan wasn't any better than his teammates. Of course, the opposite argument, which we haven't seen here but invite in enough sports fans and we absolutely would, would be that Jordan was the ONLY reason they won six rings. Both arguments are preposterous.

You have to think along the margins. Would Jordan have won six rings with the teams LeBron had? Honestly, no, he just wouldn't have. You can't seriously argue that the supporting cast means nothing at all, or else the Bulls would have won the title every year and wouldn't have had to bother to assemble good players around Jordan. But would he have won NO titles without Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson? That strikes me as being equally ridiculous, and to be honest, I am not sure that in such a circumstance he'd be any less great a player. If he'd had less capable teammates and had won 3, 4 or 5 rings instead of six, that reflects on his inferior teammates, not him. It's a team sport.

Had LeBron had better teams to play with in Cleveland, would he have won a few more rings? Quite possibly. But the opposite is true as what I just said about Mike; that would not necessarily make LeBron a greater player. Adding a better center to the 2010 Cavs maybe gives him another ring, but that doesn't make him a better player, it just means he had better teammates.

The point Jackknifed is trying to make isn't that LeBron was wholly responsible for winning titles; obviously, were he surrounded by high school players, all his teams would have gone 0-82. It's that LeBron was a greater part of his teams, on average, than Michael was, and that that might explain why he won three rings to Michael's six. I find that argument at least partially compelling because is strikes me as being visibly obvious that his Cleveland teammates were VERY inferior to Jordan's Bulls teammates. They weren't all useless turds; some were really good players. He didn't have Scottie Pippen, though.

I mean, this year LeBron is on a really strong Lakers squad. They could win the title, but if they dod there is, barring a playoff performance for the ages, no way LeBron would be as responsible for that title as he was for the three he already has. He's playing great, but goddamn that team is loaded with terrific basketball players. Anthony Davis is maybe the best teammate he's ever had (while he played with him) and they're got quality veterans all over the court. The Lakers are playing Dwight Howard OFF THE BENCH (a role he is actually doing really well in.) There is no rational way you could say LeBron winning a title with the 2020 Lakers is as much greatness credit as winning it with the 2016 Cavs.
- You keep bringing up Pippen and Rodman while completely ignoring Wade, Bosh, Kyrie and Love. Would Lebron have won anything with any one of those guys missing? I will concede that I think Jordan had some better teammates vs Lebron but Lebron's playoff opponents don't even rank in the same class as Jordan's opponents.

- A big factor in rankings is who you had to beat in order to win the championship. Jordan went toe to toe with Magic, Isiah, Bird, Miller, Ewing, Barkley, Stockton & Malone, Drexler & Porter, young Shaq, Hakeem, etc, etc, etc. Who has Lebron had to beat? Wade and Bosh…oops, I forgot he punked out and teamed up with those guys instead of just beating them down like Mike would have done. Let’s try this then, give me a list of quality opponents Lebron had to beat in order to become champion. If your list for Lebron can come close to matching Jordan’s list then I will concede this point and move on.

- Back in the day Jordan could only be defended using hand checking and hard fouls and you think if you put him in the league today (on one of Lebron's championship squads) with NO hand checking and NO hard fouls that he would somehow be worse? If you believe that then your reality does not work the way my reality does. He would destroy everyone.
  #92  
Old 01-28-2020, 01:25 PM
Dinsdale is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 19,601
I was a huge NBA fan thru the end of the Bulls reign. For various reasons, I stopped watching any team sports since then. But there is one factor that I do not believe has been mentioned yet, which affects the comparison of team achievements from then and now. Back then IIRC, teams played other teams in their conference 6-7 times, and played only 2 games - home and away - against the other conference teams. So the Bulls were playing the Pistons/Celtics/Hawks/Cavs... MANY times a year, whereas their games against LA/Portland... were an EVENT! In my mind, it made it much more of a big deal, that the Bulls hhad to claw past Cleveland, and then past the Celts and then the Pistons, before making it to the finals. Somehow it seemed like it made the matchups a little more meaningful.

Similar to the way I used to prefer when the Big 10 consisted of 10 teams, and their football and hoops championships were determined by team against team home and away play throughout the season. Made the whole season more dramatic - part of a whole.

It wasn't just Bird and the Celts - it was Parrish/McHale/Whining Danny Ainge/DJ. And it wasn't just Isaiah, it was Mahorn/Salley/Rodman/Lambeer/Vinnie Johnson... Same way the Lakers weren't just Magic/Kareem (my all time fave when he was Lew Alcindor w/ Big O on the Bucks!) ...Dennis Cooper/Rambis/Worthy. That I can still remember all of these players by name so many years later suggests there was SOME quality throughout the league.

Just a thought.

Also, as I recall, every Bulls fan back then appreciated what Grant, Pippen, and the others brought to the court. Man, when Grant, Pippen, and Jordan applied the press, it was like watching the 86 Bears D swarm. But it really got old when their end-of-game offense devolved to "isolate MJ, and let him drive/draw a foul."
__________________
I used to be disgusted.
Now I try to be amused.
  #93  
Old 01-28-2020, 01:39 PM
BeagleJesus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinsdale View Post
I was a huge NBA fan thru the end of the Bulls reign. For various reasons, I stopped watching any team sports since then. But there is one factor that I do not believe has been mentioned yet, which affects the comparison of team achievements from then and now. Back then IIRC, teams played other teams in their conference 6-7 times, and played only 2 games - home and away - against the other conference teams. So the Bulls were playing the Pistons/Celtics/Hawks/Cavs... MANY times a year, whereas their games against LA/Portland... were an EVENT! In my mind, it made it much more of a big deal, that the Bulls hhad to claw past Cleveland, and then past the Celts and then the Pistons, before making it to the finals. Somehow it seemed like it made the matchups a little more meaningful.

Similar to the way I used to prefer when the Big 10 consisted of 10 teams, and their football and hoops championships were determined by team against team home and away play throughout the season. Made the whole season more dramatic - part of a whole.

It wasn't just Bird and the Celts - it was Parrish/McHale/Whining Danny Ainge/DJ. And it wasn't just Isaiah, it was Mahorn/Salley/Rodman/Lambeer/Vinnie Johnson... Same way the Lakers weren't just Magic/Kareem (my all time fave when he was Lew Alcindor w/ Big O on the Bucks!) ...Dennis Cooper/Rambis/Worthy. That I can still remember all of these players by name so many years later suggests there was SOME quality throughout the league.

Just a thought.

Also, as I recall, every Bulls fan back then appreciated what Grant, Pippen, and the others brought to the court. Man, when Grant, Pippen, and Jordan applied the press, it was like watching the 86 Bears D swarm. But it really got old when their end-of-game offense devolved to "isolate MJ, and let him drive/draw a foul."
What you just described are all of the little things that made me a huge fan of the NBA back in the day. If you wanted to win the chip you had to fight your way up the mountain and claw your way past all of the bad mofos standing in your way. Yeah man, that was the good stuff.

Minor nitpick, it was Michael Cooper...

Last edited by BeagleJesus; 01-28-2020 at 01:41 PM.
  #94  
Old 01-28-2020, 02:35 PM
Dinsdale is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 19,601
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
What you just described are all of the little things that made me a huge fan of the NBA back in the day. If you wanted to win the chip you had to fight your way up the mountain and claw your way past all of the bad mofos standing in your way. Yeah man, that was the good stuff.

Minor nitpick, it was Michael Cooper...
Fuck! Loved them tall socks!
__________________
I used to be disgusted.
Now I try to be amused.
  #95  
Old 01-28-2020, 03:09 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeagleJesus View Post
- You keep bringing up Pippen and Rodman
Actually, that post is the first time I have mentioned Pippen in reference to Michael Jordan, and I have not mentioned Dennis Rodman at all.

Quote:
Back in the day Jordan could only be defended using hand checking and hard fouls and you think if you put him in the league today (on one of Lebron's championship squads) with NO hand checking and NO hard fouls that he would somehow be worse?
I do not think that, have not even suggested it, and that weird idea has absolutely nothing to do with anything I have written. You seem confused. Who do you think you are replying to?
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!

Last edited by RickJay; 01-28-2020 at 03:11 PM.
  #96  
Old 01-28-2020, 04:07 PM
Chisquirrel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,018
Nope, you just keep repeating the "superior teammates and coaching" while ignoring that LeBron has required at least 2 All-Stars with 20+ PER to win.

3-5 isn't a testament to how good LeBron has been, it's a condemnation of the weakness of the Eastern Conference.
  #97  
Old 01-28-2020, 04:30 PM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 43,085
I have not repeated the "superior coaching" bit. I've agreed with that idea once.

Well, I would imagine most champions have more than one All-Star calibre player. Again with the extremist arguments; "this guy had an All Star teammate" doesn't mean it was the best team ever, or that other teams might not be better.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #98  
Old 01-28-2020, 04:43 PM
Chisquirrel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,018
Not "an".

Multiple. We're talking repeatedly moving around in free agency and forcing trades, to get two or more top 20 players in the NBA to play WITH LeBron at any time he was a contender.
  #99  
Old 01-28-2020, 07:28 PM
Jackknifed Juggernaut is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Lenni Lenape Land
Posts: 6,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
Not "an".

Multiple. We're talking repeatedly moving around in free agency and forcing trades, to get two or more top 20 players in the NBA to play WITH LeBron at any time he was a contender.
Wade is the only player that even comes close to rising at the level of Pippen, in contributing to the championships of LeBron or Jordan. And by the time he started playing with LeBron, he had fallen to All-NBA 3rd team. Bosh never rose to that class. Neither did Irving or Love.

Plus, you’re ignoring the defensive side of the ball. Not only was Pippen perennial All-NBA 1st or 2nd team, he was on 8 1st team defenses. These were the Bulls championship years. Plus Rodman led the league in rebounds for all 3 years of that 2nd 3-peat. You know it, the year after Jordan lost to Shaq, who in turn got destroyed by Olajuwon (since we’re boiling this all down to individual players). Which is why the Bulls had to enlist their arch-enemy, Rodman. While LeBron’s success is often downplayed due to his joining a “super team”, to quote Draymond Green, “you started it, bruh!” should have been directed at Jordan. Followed by Shaq and Kobe. Although the Rockets acquiring Drexler might have been the blueprint.

So if you’re discounting the contributions of Pippen in those 6 rings, achieving awards only surpassed by Jordan, then perhaps you’ve answered the OP’s question about Jordan’s era. Clearly very weak, if even Pippen was making all-NBA and all-Defense 1st teams. Makes sense, when Magic, Bird, and Isiah all got old, and when Shaq was just getting started.
__________________
"That's right. Even my feet have balls." Stephen Colbert 9/28/10
  #100  
Old 01-28-2020, 11:11 PM
Chisquirrel is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackknifed Juggernaut View Post
Wade is the only player that even comes close to rising at the level of Pippen, in contributing to the championships of LeBron or Jordan. And by the time he started playing with LeBron, he had fallen to All-NBA 3rd team. Bosh never rose to that class. Neither did Irving or Love.
And yet all of those that played with LeBron managed PERs of 20+ while they were on the same team. Jordan's teammates? Pippen was about 20 more often than not, but other than that, he got 20+ contributions from teammates three times, total. Wade himself, though you enjoy deriding him, posted PERs of 26 and 24 in the Heatles' championship seasons, both higher than anything Pippen managed.


Quote:
Plus, you’re ignoring the defensive side of the ball. Not only was Pippen perennial All-NBA 1st or 2nd team, he was on 8 1st team defenses. These were the Bulls championship years. Plus Rodman led the league in rebounds for all 3 years of that 2nd 3-peat.
And Jordan was All-Defensive First Team nine times. Sure doesn't help your argument that LeBron is better...

Quote:
You know it, the year after Jordan lost to Shaq, who in turn got destroyed by Olajuwon (since we’re boiling this all down to individual players).
You're the one completely ignoring the contribution of multiple consistent All-Stars while simultaneously harping on the contribution of one.

Quote:
Which is why the Bulls had to enlist their arch-enemy, Rodman.
Make that two.

Quote:
While LeBron’s success is often downplayed due to his joining a “super team”, to quote Draymond Green, “you started it, bruh!” should have been directed at Jordan. Followed by Shaq and Kobe. Although the Rockets acquiring Drexler might have been the blueprint.
I guess I must have missed something in the 90's, because I don't remember Jordan running away from the team that drafted him to join an already-champion like Dwyane Wade to carry him through the Finals.

Quote:
So if you’re discounting the contributions of Pippen in those 6 rings, achieving awards only surpassed by Jordan, then perhaps you’ve answered the OP’s question about Jordan’s era. Clearly very weak, if even Pippen was making all-NBA and all-Defense 1st teams. Makes sense, when Magic, Bird, and Isiah all got old, and when Shaq was just getting started.
So Pippen's all-NBA teams count, but Wade's, Bosh's, Love's, Irving's, and Davis's don't. Got it.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:03 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017