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  #51  
Old 11-28-2019, 11:24 PM
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The basic theme is that one should be prepared for offensive posts when one enters the Pit and not complain that a snowball hit your head. One should still expect that no one will throw rocks.

The Pit is here to contain the nastiness to where it can be avoided if so desired, and maybe to reality check our upset. A Pit turning on the OP is such a check and happens with some frequency.

But again, not rocks.

There is no valid insult that include bringing in real world family issues or real world mental health issues.

Comments that would possibly be slander if associated with a real name, like stating someone molests children, are way over the line.

Personally I would love to see less boring angry venting and more entertaining invective when posters need to go off, but that I know is not a realistic hope.
  #52  
Old 11-28-2019, 11:55 PM
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ALSO that said, you’re free to report margin’s [what you appear to be implying] “infraction,” should the inspiration strike you, D’Anconia...
You're not very bright, are you? Why on earth would I report a post in the PIT, where (almost) anything goes?
  #53  
Old 11-29-2019, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
You're not very bright, are you? Why on earth would I report a post in the PIT, where (almost) anything goes?
Just spitballing here, but is it because you're a prissy dumbfuck who affects sanctimony in lieu of wit?

Of course, I doubt you'd actually report a Pit post; just tongue-cluckingly imply that it would be nice if someone else did because it would be the moral thing to do or some such crap, but no-one would because this place is such a liberal echo-mind hive-chamber.
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  #54  
Old 11-29-2019, 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
You're not very bright, are you? Why on earth would I report a post in the PIT, where (almost) anything goes?
Well there was this,
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
{...} I placed this thread in the Pit, because I want people who post regularly in this forum to see and respond to it. However, I don't want to see fighting or insults in here. I intend to moderate this discussion as if it were in ATMB. Please keep this in mind. {...}
but I can see how you might have missed it in the OP.

CMC fnord!

Last edited by crowmanyclouds; 11-29-2019 at 12:08 AM.
  #55  
Old 11-29-2019, 12:48 AM
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I cheerfully admit to missing it, too, or at least letting it slip my mind. In any case, trying to "reign" the Pit in is a bad idea and I register my disagreement with the suggestion.
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  #56  
Old 11-29-2019, 06:46 AM
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For your amusement:
The Rules of Engagement
Quote:
Originally Posted by TubaDiva
Remember all those times we said, "hey, why don't you take that outside?" Well, here's where you go. <g>

No, really. This is where you go for all those verbal fistfights. When a thread veers from debate and/or discussion into personal attack, sneering insults, and "Yo Mommas," y'all should step outside to this thread.

Remember, although AOL's Terms of Service do not usually apply and we will give you SOME latitude, this is no back alley and you will be expected to be if not civil at least semi-reasonable. Pure evil and/or rants won't fly -- unless they're really entertaining.
Ed's Pit Rules:
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No trolling

By trolling, we mean posting of inflammatory comments solely to get a rise out of people. If we feel your primary goal as a poster is to make people mad, you'll quickly find yourself on the road to banning. On the flip side, the fact that a poster consistently makes you mad doesn't automatically make them a troll.
  #57  
Old 11-29-2019, 08:21 AM
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I agree that insults toward the posters themselves are fine, provided they're not aiming at a sensitive area such as past trauma or mental health. That's why I felt Shodan had crossed the line. I also did not report it, but I felt like it was potentially mod note/mod warning worthy, even though it was in the Pit. Huey Freeman's attacks on Shodan's children, even though they were directly impacted, fit into the same category because there's no other purpose for the post other than to cause psychological distress (Huey's posts toward Guinastasia were actually worse, IMO).
  #58  
Old 11-29-2019, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D'Anconia View Post
You're not very bright, are you? Why on earth would I report a post in the PIT, where (almost) anything goes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
Just spitballing here, but is it because you're a prissy dumbfuck who affects sanctimony in lieu of wit?

Of course, I doubt you'd actually report a Pit post; just tongue-cluckingly imply that it would be nice if someone else did because it would be the moral thing to do or some such crap, but no-one would because this place is such a liberal echo-mind hive-chamber.
[Moderating]
Both of you knock it off. D'Anconia, of you don't have anything better to do than snipe at other posters, don't post in this thread.

No warnings this time.
[/Moderating]
  #59  
Old 12-01-2019, 11:45 AM
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I'm all for a fairly free-wheeling hands off approach - within limits.

Even when we are calling each other all sorts of things, there are limits.

Some people don't know limits. They can be told off, treated in kind, or warned until they get with the program.

The worse ones are those who know but don't give a damn (and keep getting away with crossing the line) or those who don't give a damn but are expert at dancing all over the line (and getting away with it).

I think we all know a troll or a piece of garbage when we see one. The ones who do nasty egregious shit on a regular basis need (in my opinion) to be dealt with quicker and more ruthlessly sometimes.
  #60  
Old 12-01-2019, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
Calling other posters "pedophiles"
This is something else that gets brought up a lot, that I'm not personally bothered by. (For the record, yes, actual pedophiles bother me, but I don't see saying "You're a pedophile" as necessarily worse than, "You're a motherfucker.")
Would you have posted Listen up, pedophiles!?
  #61  
Old 12-01-2019, 06:13 PM
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Would you have posted Listen up, pedophiles!?
No, but the rule change there was that “mothefucker” had previously been banned, and “pedophile” had not.
  #62  
Old 12-01-2019, 08:03 PM
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Frankly, there's more problems than obscenity, but how does one combat bad faith?
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  #63  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:31 AM
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Making personal attacks against posters
This is both the area where I intend the most immediate change, but also the most subjective. I want to make attacking someone over deep personal trauma out-of-bounds, but that's going to necessarily be a lot of subjective decisions on my part. I've certainly seen a lot of people report posts because they were "traumatized" by the most picayune insults, or even simply criticism and disagreement. On the other hand, as an able-bodied white guy, there are entire oceans of trauma out there of which I have only the vaguest understanding.
I'm kind of ambivalent about this. I don't see why people doing their absolute best to insult others in every which way should be fundamentally different than introducing "deep personal trauma". But not a big deal. I do think there need to be two exceptions, though.

1. If someone is making a substantive point in a general way, and any insult to the other poster is incidental. For example, suppose hypothetically someone is arguing that rape/abuse victims should not sit on juries judging people accused of such crimes since their rational judgment might reasonably be impacted, someone else shouldn't be able to complain "as a rape/abuse victim myself I find it highly traumatic to be told that I am now to be disqualified from even serving on juries in such cases ..."

2. Where the traumatized person themselves introduces their circumstances as a way of bolstering one side of an argument. So if the discussion is about juries as above and someone says "I'm a rape/abuse victim myself and I think I and my fellow victims can be perfectly rational about such cases ...", I don't think it would be appropriate to bar the other guy from responding "no, I don't think you and your fellow victims can be assumed to be as rational as a non-victim ...", even though in this case the poster is addressing the traumatized person's circumstance directly.

To do otherwise would alter the nature of discussions of these issues, and allow personal trauma to be used as a trump card (or human shield).
  #64  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:37 AM
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Where do you draw the line between "personal trauma is a trump card" vs "personal trauma gives you relevant experience that the non-survivor just doesn't have"?

Asking as a teenaged male rape survivor who was outright told by a now thankfully departed poster that I didn't know what I was talking about with regards to the mechanics of Sandusky's raping, but they did.

Was my rape a "trump card", or just enough experience that I could say I knew and they obviously didn't?

Last edited by MrDibble; 12-02-2019 at 08:42 AM.
  #65  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:50 AM
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Miller, I think that your style and standards in moderating the Pit have been damn near perfect. I prefer the judgment of a reasonable person to a bunch of rules-lawyering.
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  #66  
Old 12-02-2019, 08:55 AM
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Where do you draw the line between "personal trauma is a trump card" vs "personal trauma gives you relevant experience that the non-survivor just doesn't have"?
There's no line necessary; these are not on the same axis.

Personal trauma is a "trump card" if the other poster is barred by rule from responding to your experience-based argument. It's "relevant experience" if they are not.
  #67  
Old 12-02-2019, 09:29 AM
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I'm all for a fairly free-wheeling hands off approach - within limits.

Even when we are calling each other all sorts of things, there are limits.

Some people don't know limits. They can be told off, treated in kind, or warned until they get with the program.

The worse ones are those who know but don't give a damn (and keep getting away with crossing the line) or those who don't give a damn but are expert at dancing all over the line (and getting away with it).

I think we all know a troll or a piece of garbage when we see one. The ones who do nasty egregious shit on a regular basis need (in my opinion) to be dealt with quicker and more ruthlessly sometimes.
^This.

TPTB need to go back to putting a short leash on anyone whose raison d'être is to rile people up. Particularly those who start dancing around, almost but not quite explicitly admitting that they're trolling.

Why do they start dancing around? It's the "I'm not touching you" argument; they know they're pissing people off and TPTB are way too hesitant to do anything about it.
  #68  
Old 12-02-2019, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I'm kind of ambivalent about this. I don't see why people doing their absolute best to insult others in every which way should be fundamentally different than introducing "deep personal trauma". But not a big deal. I do think there need to be two exceptions, though.

1. If someone is making a substantive point in a general way, and any insult to the other poster is incidental. For example, suppose hypothetically someone is arguing that rape/abuse victims should not sit on juries judging people accused of such crimes since their rational judgment might reasonably be impacted, someone else shouldn't be able to complain "as a rape/abuse victim myself I find it highly traumatic to be told that I am now to be disqualified from even serving on juries in such cases ..."

2. Where the traumatized person themselves introduces their circumstances as a way of bolstering one side of an argument. So if the discussion is about juries as above and someone says "I'm a rape/abuse victim myself and I think I and my fellow victims can be perfectly rational about such cases ...", I don't think it would be appropriate to bar the other guy from responding "no, I don't think you and your fellow victims can be assumed to be as rational as a non-victim ...", even though in this case the poster is addressing the traumatized person's circumstance directly.

To do otherwise would alter the nature of discussions of these issues, and allow personal trauma to be used as a trump card (or human shield).
From what well of experience does dude number 2's opinion come? Given the way this board reacts to rape victims, that's just another misogynist assault. Maybe in some wonderful future world, that kind of opinion would not be ignorant, but there was a bunch of guys in the Pit calling Christine Blasey-Ford a liar while defending Kavanaugh, who did lie about several things, under oath, before Congress. I don't think we got any conservative defending those viewpoints to answer a direct question.
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  #69  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:47 AM
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Miller, I think that your style and standards in moderating the Pit have been damn near perfect. I prefer the judgment of a reasonable person to a bunch of rules-lawyering.
What’s reasonable? When one is posting insults in the pit aimed at another poster the intent is to make the other poster mad or to hurt their feelings. Insults that are too effective according to an in-group are bad while those from the in-group are perfectly reasonable?

To be fair, whatever the reprehensible dial is set at, objectivity is important.
  #70  
Old 12-02-2019, 11:59 AM
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I tend to think accusations of serious criminal conduct by other posters made flippantly (i.e. "you're a pedophile") should probably be outlawed, but I could be biased since someone did that to me. It was so obviously made flippantly and dishonestly that it caused me no worry (and such flippant insults probably don't cause any real problems), but such nonsense could be crafted in a way to mimic real and substantial accusations of criminal wrongdoing, which seems like it ought to be well out of bounds in that it could lead to all types of trouble. With that in mind, seems like it might be smart to ban that category of insults since it's such a tiny "slice" of insults that could cause much bigger problems.

On another note, I think misogyny should be treated the same as other forms of hate speech -- i.e. "slut" should be treated like racial slurs. Slurs against women are just as bad as slurs against various races and ethnicities, IMO.
  #71  
Old 12-02-2019, 12:36 PM
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I tend to think accusations of serious criminal conduct by other posters made flippantly (i.e. "you're a pedophile") should probably be outlawed, but I could be biased since someone did that to me. It was so obviously made flippantly and dishonestly that it caused me no worry (and such flippant insults probably don't cause any real problems), but such nonsense could be crafted in a way to mimic real and substantial accusations of criminal wrongdoing, which seems like it ought to be well out of bounds in that it could lead to all types of trouble. With that in mind, seems like it might be smart to ban that category of insults since it's such a tiny "slice" of insults that could cause much bigger problems.

On another note, I think misogyny should be treated the same as other forms of hate speech -- i.e. "slut" should be treated like racial slurs. Slurs against women are just as bad as slurs against various races and ethnicities, IMO.

Slurs against women aren't even recognized as slurs.
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  #72  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:03 PM
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[Moderating]
Both of you knock it off. D'Anconia, of you don't have anything better to do than snipe at other posters, don't post in this thread.

No warnings this time.
[/Moderating]
Far be it from me to stick up for D'Anconia, but isn't this the forum to do so?
  #73  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:19 PM
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Far be it from me to stick up for D'Anconia, but isn't this the forum to do so?
Read the red text in the OP.
  #74  
Old 12-02-2019, 02:25 PM
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Read the red text in the OP.


Sorry 'bout that. Never mind.
  #75  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:29 AM
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Miller, I think the Pit is moderated just fine, and I like how you tell people to knock it off without pulling out the WARNING ISSUED card most of the time. I think your reminders to do this or not do that work well and people tend to follow them.

I wouldn't mind prohibitions about, for example, slagging on someone's kids, but the first few would get the Reminder, No warning Issued treatment, and after that, warnings for not following moderator direction.

There's my useless two cents.
  #76  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:42 PM
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I think moderation here is great for the most part, but I would like to see a prohibition on using personal information about someone as an insult against them. For many people, the SDMB is a place they can share something about themselves that they aren't comfortable sharing elsewhere. If everyone knows that any admission in MPSIMS can be used as ammo against them in the Pit, it closes that support channel.

I think you can address some of the concerns expressed above with some simple rules. First, things you did are fair game, things that happened to you are not. People can insult you because you choose not to vaccinate your kids. But when your kid dies because you didn't vaccinate him, someone shouldn't be able to laugh at you for having a dead kid. If you enlist in the Army, people can insult you for choosing to fight an immoral war. If you come back with PTSD, people don't get to make loony bin cracks.

And for concerns like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
2. Where the traumatized person themselves introduces their circumstances as a way of bolstering one side of an argument. So if the discussion is about juries as above and someone says "I'm a rape/abuse victim myself and I think I and my fellow victims can be perfectly rational about such cases ...", I don't think it would be appropriate to bar the other guy from responding "no, I don't think you and your fellow victims can be assumed to be as rational as a non-victim ...", even though in this case the poster is addressing the traumatized person's circumstance directly.
It's perfectly acceptable to use information the poster provided in arguments against them, like your example above. What shouldn't be allowed is using their status as a rape/abuse survivor as an insult.
  #77  
Old 12-03-2019, 09:13 PM
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Another one chiming in to say that I have no problems with the way the Pit is currently moderated, and (Dept. of ass-kissing) I've long considered Miller's moderation to be some of the best on the board.

Although I'll admit to being appalled by the lowness of the abuse handed out by some of the more egregious assholes around here, I've never been much for handing out the billingsgate myself and pretty much let 'em slide. Hell, I once made a joke out of a comment by one of these worthies about fucking my dead mother (life's too short, etc.)

Executive summary: keep on keepin' on.
  #78  
Old 12-12-2019, 07:04 AM
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This isn't Pit specific, but I want the "don't be a jerk" rule to be enforced much more broadly and with an understanding that it is amorphous and subjective.

Even the pit, there are times when people go, "hey, woah, simmer down." Moments like that represent a violation of community standards - a legal concept used when determining whether something violates obscenity laws. The Pit may have a looser set of standards than the rest of the board, but it can still have standards.

Basically, I want you to enforce a SDMB-specific version of the aptly named Miller test.

I think the Pit serves a good function as a boxing ring, but right now it's more of a dumpster.

I am personally just fine with people racking up warnings (again, not just in the pit) for acting contrary to the overall tone of the board and being smacked with the "don't be a jerk" rule. If a poster's notion of jerkishness - in the pit or elsewhere - does not jive with the rest of the board, that is okay because there are other places on the internet with different community standards. We don't have to be all things to all people.

Last edited by Johnny Bravo; 12-12-2019 at 07:08 AM.
  #79  
Old 12-12-2019, 09:42 AM
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Fuck you all.
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  #80  
Old 12-12-2019, 11:34 AM
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Fuck you all.
What, no cactus?
  #81  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:30 AM
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I'll add myself to the chorus of "I like the Pit just fine the way is, thankyouverymuch!"
  #82  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:43 AM
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So, Miller, any thoughts on how the Pit should be and how the Pit will be moving forward?
  #83  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:50 AM
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So, Miller, any thoughts on how the Pit should be and how the Pit will be moving forward?
Funny how you're asking now.
  #84  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:53 AM
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Funny how you're asking now.
What's funny about it?

I put in some commentary when the thread first popped up and in a few of the other threads of this nature. Of course it is of interest after participating in the banning thread to have clarity on current or soon to be implemented changes to the various forums. Nothing funny or sinister about it.
  #85  
Old 12-13-2019, 10:57 AM
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Question for Miller: What is the purpose of this forum? Is it for (supposedly necessary) venting? Is it to talk shit without repercussion? Something else?
How far we should go in this forum depends on our actual destination, in my opinion.
  #86  
Old 12-13-2019, 12:50 PM
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What's funny about it?
You honestly don't see how asking such a question within a half hour of another discussion of yours about board procedures getting locked might be a bit suspicious?

Last edited by Skywatcher; 12-13-2019 at 12:51 PM.
  #87  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:10 PM
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You honestly don't see how asking such a question within a half hour of another discussion of yours about board procedures getting locked might be a bit suspicious?
When I said they were related how would it be suspicious? There is no great conspiracy afoot! When a request for feedback on rules and behavior is posted asking for the status of action on that feedback is no coincidence when a debate on the VERY subject that directly preceded the soul searching now in place was shut down.

Last edited by octopus; 12-13-2019 at 01:10 PM.
  #88  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:20 PM
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Miller, I think that your style and standards in moderating the Pit have been damn near perfect. I prefer the judgment of a reasonable person to a bunch of rules-lawyering.
Exactly.
  #89  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:22 PM
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There is no great conspiracy afoot!
Your argument in the locked thread suggests you believe otherwise.
Quote:
When a request for feedback on rules and behavior is posted asking for the status of action on that feedback is no coincidence when a debate on the VERY subject that directly preceded the soul searching now in place was shut down.
No, I believe you're still trying to be a rules lawyer.
  #90  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:24 PM
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This isn't Pit specific, but I want the "don't be a jerk" rule to be enforced much more broadly and with an understanding that it is amorphous and subjective.

Even the pit, there are times when people go, "hey, woah, simmer down." ...
I think the Pit serves a good function as a boxing ring, but right now it's more of a dumpster.

... If a poster's notion of jerkishness - in the pit or elsewhere - does not jive with the rest of the board, that is okay because there are other places on the internet with different community standards. We don't have to be all things to all people.
If people simply adhered to the "don't be a jerk" rule, we wouldn't NEED most of the other many rules.
  #91  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:44 PM
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Your argument in the locked thread suggests you believe otherwise.No, I believe you're still trying to be a rules lawyer.
The fact people use that as a pejorative when the topic is specifically on rules and their enforcement strikes me as an inappropriate line of argument. There are rules that govern appropriate behavior of the board. There is a specific forum to ask questions and seek clarification. To be insulted when participating in a conversation for feedback on the rules and enforcement by being called a rules lawyer in a disparaging fashion is abusive.

Am I not allowed to participate in this thread to provide my feedback to Miller? Furthermore, when multiple people respond to me and I respond to them it suddenly becomes the tedious octoputz show! No coincidence at all.

Last edited by octopus; 12-13-2019 at 01:44 PM.
  #92  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:46 PM
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Miller, I think that your style and standards in moderating the Pit have been damn near perfect. I prefer the judgment of a reasonable person to a bunch of rules-lawyering.
This seems to be the consensus.
  #93  
Old 12-13-2019, 01:51 PM
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The fact people use that as a pejorative when the topic is specifically on rules and their enforcement strikes me as an inappropriate line of argument. There are rules that govern appropriate behavior of the board. There is a specific forum to ask questions and seek clarification. To be insulted when participating in a conversation for feedback on the rules and enforcement by being called a rules lawyer in a disparaging fashion is abusive.

Am I not allowed to participate in this thread to provide my feedback to Miller? Furthermore, when multiple people respond to me and I respond to them it suddenly becomes the tedious octoputz show! No coincidence at all.
Bud, let me try and help.
The "tedious octoputz show" is accurate. All I see is whining. Maybe I'm missing your other contributions, but you don't seem to be enjoying this board. I'm not going to do a post search but are you contributing besides whining?
  #94  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:00 PM
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{...} a debate on the VERY subject that directly preceded the soul searching now in place was shut down.
What 'debate' where?

CMC fnord!
  #95  
Old 12-13-2019, 02:03 PM
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This seems to be the consensus.
I'd agree, with the caveat that Miller shouldn't have to "defend behavior that made me nauseous" as he mentioned in his OP. I'm fine with Miller going with what he subjectively feels is out of bounds or "beyond the pale." If he screws up on a judgment call, plenty of people will call him out on it, and I trust him to decide if he was off base.
  #96  
Old 12-15-2019, 06:05 PM
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Not sure if you ought to give a pass to people who use the phrase “reign in” in a context of controlling behavior (“I think that the Prince of Wales should be allowed to reign in Wales” would be fine, of course, unless we’re talking about Wales being unruly and needing to be reined in), but maybe you’re right, and a gentle reprimand is sufficient.
Whereas his brother, who may well have raped a 14 year-old girl more than once, is a Pedophile plain and simple. See how this works?

I've certainly gone at it plenty with Miller over the years but this O.P. of his is kind of what this Forum, and maybe the Boards, really needed. So thank you for putting these thoughts out and for allowing some discussion here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm
Question for Miller: What is the purpose of this forum? Is it for (supposedly necessary) venting? Is it to talk shit without repercussion? Something else?
How far we should go in this forum depends on our actual destination, in my opinion.
Exactly. I've not looked carefully at the Pinned posts at the top of The Pit before composing this, but I would hope that Miller's sticky on "Motherfuckers" is still up there and still in force. Because The Pit without the ability to ( safely ) use foul and angry language, well, it's MPSIMS isn't it??
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  #97  
Old 12-17-2019, 02:00 AM
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I’m good with “anything that doesn’t nauseate Miller”.

And if someone could come up with a rule against disingenuous BS that Miller can get behind (behind the rule, not the BS) that would be awesome. I also want a pony.
  #98  
Old 12-17-2019, 05:58 AM
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I have not felt any need for rules changes here.
  #99  
Old 12-17-2019, 07:15 AM
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Bud, let me try and help.
The "tedious octoputz show" is accurate. All I see is whining. Maybe I'm missing your other contributions, but you don't seem to be enjoying this board. I'm not going to do a post search but are you contributing besides whining?
In forums and posts whose purpose is to provide a space for questions or solicit feedback using them as such is not whining. Just because I post inconvenient and embarrassing to the mods quotes from said mods does not make the content whining. When a place states that it is run fairly it’s not unreasonable to expect fairness, respect of precedent and consistency.

So when it comes to the pit I expect the above. And if that’s considered tedious or whatever other insult so what?
  #100  
Old 12-17-2019, 02:12 PM
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Funny how you're asking now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steatopygia View Post
Bud, let me try and help.
The "tedious octoputz show" is accurate. All I see is whining. Maybe I'm missing your other contributions, but you don't seem to be enjoying this board. I'm not going to do a post search but are you contributing besides whining?
[Moderating]
Again, this thread isn't for attacking other posters, or questioning their motives. If you have a problem with someone, there's the entire rest of this subforum to hash it out in.
[/Moderating]
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