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Old 06-05-2019, 10:26 PM
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The Omnibus "Religious Leaders Being Fucking Awful" Thread


I don't like religion. I grew up Catholic, and even for a while after I stopped believing in God, I still had a bit of a soft spot for my old community. That's pretty much all long gone now. Fuck religion.

I mostly criticize Christianity because that's what I'm most familiar with, and because self-professed Christians are the ones doing the most damage in our country these days. I tend not to bitch about Islam or Judaism because I don't want people to think I'm a Trump supporter. But, really, fuck all religion.

So this is my attempt at an Omnibus thread. How bad is religion? Let us count the ways!

To keep this thread to a manageable length, and to avoid the fate of the "Stupid Liberal Idea of the Day" thread, I ask that we keep our examples limited to actions of clergy and other religious officials and leaders. Some Bible thumping politician is caught with a prostitute, put it in SRIOTD. A Catholic bishop is caught with a prostitute, now we're talking!

To get things started on the right foot, I give you West Virginia bishop Michael Bransfield:

Quote:
In the years before he was ousted for alleged sexual harassment and financial abuses, the leader of the Catholic Church in West Virginia gave cash gifts totaling $350,000 to fellow clergymen, including young priests he is accused of mistreating and more than a dozen cardinals in the United States and at the Vatican, according to church records obtained by The Washington Post.

Bishop Michael J. Bransfield wrote the checks from his personal account over more than a decade, and the West Virginia diocese reimbursed him by boosting his compensation to cover the value of the gifts, the records show. As a tax-exempt nonprofit, the diocese must use its money only for charitable purposes.

<snip>

During his 13 years as bishop in West Virginia, one of the poorest states in the nation, Bransfield spent $2.4 million in church money on travel, much of it personal, which included flying in chartered jets and staying in luxury hotels, according to the report. Bransfield and several subordinates spent an average of nearly $1,000 a month on alcohol, it says. The West Virginia diocese paid $4.6 million to renovate Bransfield’s church residence after a fire damaged a single bathroom. When Bransfield was in the chancery, an administrative building, fresh flowers were delivered daily, at a cost of about $100 a day — almost $182,000 in all.

Bransfield, 75, drew on a source of revenue that many parishioners knew little about, oil-rich land in Texas donated to the diocese more than a century ago. He spoke of church money as if it were his to spend without restriction, according to the report.

<snip>

Bransfield wrote at least 565 checks that were recorded as “gifts” and made out to the clerics by name. The documents obtained by The Post do not make clear why Bransfield gave the gifts, though the recipients of the largest amounts were among the most influential members of the Catholic Church, clerics whose opinions carry weight with the Vatican.

<snip>

The roots of the West Virginia diocese’s unusual wealth date back to the late 1800s, to a friendship struck on a transatlantic cruise ship between a bishop from Wheeling and a New York heiress. When she died in 1904, Sara Catherine Aloysia Tracy left the majority of her estate to the diocese, including a large tract of land in west Texas. Oil was discovered there decades later.

The income from the mineral rights generates annual revenue averaging nearly $15 million in recent years and has funded an endowment now valued at $230 million, according to financial documents.

<snip>

Three months into his time in West Virginia, documents show, Bransfield began dipping into the diocese’s fortune, sending to some clerics what would be the first of many checks.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...127_story.html

It's a long article, but it's a cracking good read. Sexual harassment, influence peddling, embezzlement, this story has it all!

Bishop Michael J. Bransfield, you win the inaugural Religious Fuckhead of the Day Award! Well done!
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Old 06-06-2019, 08:21 AM
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Are we sticking to just one Religious Fuckhead per day? After all, this is Pride Month, which seems to bring the Religious Fuckheads out in droves. Take Bishop Thomas Tobin as an example:

Quote:
“A reminder that Catholics should not support or attend LGBTQ ‘Pride Month’ events held in June. They promote a culture and encourage activities that are contrary to Catholic faith and morals. They are especially harmful for children.”
Wonder if the bishop would be open to discussing organizations that really do harm children?
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Old 06-06-2019, 08:31 AM
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Are we sticking to just one Religious Fuckhead per day?
Not at all! There are plenty of awards to go around!

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Wonder if the bishop would be open to discussing organizations that really do harm children?
Smart money is on "No".
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Old 06-06-2019, 08:48 AM
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Here is the recent thread about Kenneth Copeland:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=876469

People willingly give this nutball their money. There is a saying about a fool and their money that seems applicable here.
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:04 AM
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Are we sticking to just one Religious Fuckhead per day? After all, this is Pride Month, which seems to bring the Religious Fuckheads out in droves. Take Bishop Thomas Tobin as an example:

Wonder if the bishop would be open to discussing organizations that really do harm children?
I saw a clever and well deserved Twitter response to Tobin's tweet that said:

"You know what's even more harmful to children? Fucking them."
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:09 AM
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Well, there's this:

Southern Baptist churches welcomed sex offenders

Part 5 of 6, fer crissakes.

Quote:
The Houston Chronicle confirmed that since the 1990s, at least 30 SBC churches were aware that a pastor, employee or volunteer had faced allegations of sexual misconduct in the U.S. — yet the churches hired them anyway or allowed them to continue serving in their spiritual roles.
Quote:
Last year, Garcia reached an agreement with prosecutors in Hays County and pleaded guilty to a charge of enticing a child with intent to commit a felony. He was sentenced to 10 years deferred adjudication, a type of probation.

As part of the terms of the plea deal, Garcia didn’t have to register as a sex offender, but he was barred from being near children without supervision, except for his grandchildren. He currently serves as the church’s music minister.

“If you want a close relationship with Jesus Christ, study his word,” Garcia told the congregation at Betania at a recent worship service. “You’ll learn a lot more about him.”
Last year! With all we know about sexual predators, he gets a plea where he serves no time and can still hide the fact that he is a predator.

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Valdez was a married middle school principal in the West Texas town of Sonora when he was arrested in October 2009 on charges of having an improper sexual relationship with a 17-year-old high school student and taking sexually explicit photographs of her.

Valdez, who pleaded guilty to the charges but served no time in prison, said he and his wife reconciled and started a Christian counseling service for troubled couples. Last year, they founded New Spirit Church in a strip mall on Culebra Road near Fast Eddie’s Billiards.
Yes, that's who you want counseling you on your marriage. A sex offender and the idiot who stood by him.

Quote:
James Cantor, a Canadian psychologist and expert on pedophilia and sexual behavior, said it’s important to remember that there are different types of sexual abusers. For people who suffer from pedophilia — a sexual attraction toward prepubescent children — there is no known cure.

“Nobody has ever shown a meaningful way to turn a pedophile into a non-pedophile,” Cantor said. But he emphasized that many of his patients don’t want to hurt children, and they make a deliberate effort to avoid situations where they’re alone with them.

Cantor said it’s a red flag if a pedophile claims to have changed and wants to work with children.
I've changed! I now know that molesting kids is wrong and would never do it again. Can I work with kids, please?

Quote:
Experts say it’s commendable that churches give people a second chance. But giving accused sexual abusers a church role as spiritual leaders puts children at risk. “Once they’ve committed a crime of that nature, they should not work in any capacity around children,”
I believe in forgiveness and rehabilitation but........Duh. I mean, once someone embezzles, you can forgive them but you don't hire them to do your books.
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Last edited by Typo Negative; 06-06-2019 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:18 AM
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I don't really care for religion of any kind, but the most obnoxious are the Abrahamic religions, fighting over a holy city and a bunch of mythological bullshit.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:37 AM
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Well, there's this:....
Quote:
Cantor said it’s a red flag if a pedophile claims to have changed and wants to work with children.

Experts say it’s commendable that churches give people a second chance. But giving accused sexual abusers a church role as spiritual leaders puts children at risk. “Once they’ve committed a crime of that nature, they should not work in any capacity around children,”
Yes, surely the Catholic Church can bear no responsibility for continuing to endanger children from known pedophiles, because it took a psychologist and expert on pedophilia to realize this. How could they possibly have known?

Similarly, if a bear claims that it now only shits in the rest room, it takes a professional biologist to know that it's a red flag if we see the bear squatting down in the woods with a roll of toilet paper.

Last edited by Riemann; 06-06-2019 at 10:41 AM.
  #9  
Old 06-06-2019, 11:45 AM
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A reminder that Catholics should not support or attend LGBTQ ‘Pride Month’ events held in June. They promote a culture and encourage activities that are contrary to Catholic faith and morals. They are especially harmful for children.
Irony is dead, an I'm not expecting it to rise on the third day.

Quote:
Last year, Garcia reached an agreement with prosecutors in Hays County and pleaded guilty to a charge of enticing a child with intent to commit a felony. He was sentenced to 10 years deferred adjudication, a type of probation.

As part of the terms of the plea deal, Garcia didn’t have to register as a sex offender, but he was barred from being near children without supervision, except for his grandchildren. He currently serves as the church’s music minister.

“If you want a close relationship with Jesus Christ, study his word,” Garcia told the congregation at Betania at a recent worship service.
I think Jesus mentioned something reminiscent of a Hemingway title -- something about "a millstone" and "the sea"....
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:19 PM
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I don't really care for religion of any kind, but the most obnoxious are the Abrahamic religions, fighting over a holy city and a bunch of mythological bullshit.
They're really fighting political wars, over territory whose borders were drawn by the British and Ottoman Empires. Religion is less of a part of it than people think.
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Old 06-06-2019, 12:19 PM
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Direct quote from a Catholic I discussed this with: They were not priests. They were homosexuals masquerading as priest.
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Old 06-06-2019, 01:39 PM
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You guys are all picking on the Catholic Church pedophile priests. What about the Catholic Church embezzling priests? They deserve equal time! I give you Fr. John Wehrle.

Stole $5 million from his parish over several years. Built a seven-bedroom mansion with a swimming pool and wine cellar. Had rolls of bills in the ceiling marked "For St. Martha's parish, deposit only." And had the gall (I remember, because I was a parishioner) to continually ask the congregation for more donations to fund building improvements and parking lot repairs; and to berate us if we didn't come through to his satisfaction. While he was stealing church funds to build his mansion. Screw him, and send his arrogant thieving ass to prison.

The current bishop is livid with him, and claims he didn't know anything about Fr. Jon's elaborate residence. But he should have known. That's part of his job as head of the diocese, to know what his priests are doing. Screw him too.

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Old 06-06-2019, 01:51 PM
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I don't really care for religion of any kind, but the most obnoxious are the Abrahamic religions, fighting over a holy city and a bunch of mythological bullshit.
You're not wrong, but I offer Modi's Hindu-supremacy politics in India right now and the brutality of the Buddhist government in Myanmar as counterpoints. And remember that the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot came up from an almost entirely Buddhist Cambodian culture.

Most religions are crappy, period.
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Old 06-06-2019, 01:53 PM
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You guys are all picking on the Catholic Church pedophile priests. What about the Catholic Church embezzling priests? They deserve equal time!
"Por que no los dos?" as the little girl says in the taco commercial...
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Old 06-06-2019, 02:22 PM
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Direct quote from a Catholic I discussed this with: They were not priests. They were homosexuals masquerading as priest.
There is a grain of truth in that. I would change it to 'predators masquerading as priest' as it seems impossible to believe the tenets of that religion and still use your position to molest children.
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Old 06-06-2019, 02:31 PM
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There is a grain of truth in that. I would change it to 'predators masquerading as priest' as it seems impossible to believe the tenets of that religion and still use your position to molest children.
Well, it's equally hard to reconcile the no-condom doctrine that has cost many thousands of lives with Jesus' teachings of compassion. So I think you may have succeeded in proving that the Pope is not a Catholic. He is just masquerading as one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathol...h_and_HIV/AIDS

Last edited by Riemann; 06-06-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 06-06-2019, 03:34 PM
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Direct quote from a Catholic I discussed this with: They were not priests. They were homosexuals masquerading as priest.
If you ever discuss the issue with this person again, ask if the absolutions that they gave and the transubstantiations they offered were retroactively invalidated and need to be done over (also weddings, baptisms, and Last Rites).

I know what Cecil's answer would be, based on his article concerning popes who had illegitimate offspring, but I don't view this person as deserving of the gimme.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:11 PM
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How about a Catholic school principal who takes some of the children in his school on a field trip, and while they are sleeping, decides to demonstrate exemplary Christian behavior to his wards by going out to a strip club, getting drunk, refusing to pay his bill, fighting with police, and getting arrested?

https://abc7chicago.com/catholic-sch...-trip/5327951/
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:13 PM
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A smallish thing. Unless you're a Catholic who wants to receive communion.
"llinois House Speaker Michael Madigan and Senate President John Cullerton have been banned from receiving communion in Springfield-area churches because of their support for legislation that expands abortion access.The decree barring Illinois’ two highest-ranking lawmakers — both Catholic Democrats from Chicago — from taking the sacrament was issued by Thomas Paprocki, bishop of the Springfield Diocese, less than a week after an abortion rights bill won final approval in the legislature and was sent to Gov. J.B. Pritzker."


https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...605-story.html


I got yer separation of church and state right here, you hypocrite bastard.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:24 PM
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And another thing, a warning to Catholics: The next time you're standing in front of your local child molester, and you're expecting him to hand you a wafer, make sure he doesn't know that you support a woman's right to choose!
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:38 PM
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How about a Catholic school principal who takes some of the children in his school on a field trip, and while they are sleeping, decides to demonstrate exemplary Christian behavior to his wards by going out to a strip club, getting drunk, refusing to pay his bill, fighting with police, and getting arrested?
The last line:

Quote:
Comeau also resigned from his position as a reserve Brusly Police officer.
But it could be worse. At least he's paying to fantasize about sex with adults who are old enough to consent to perform for him, and he's physically assaulting people who are his own size and capable of fighting back.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:56 PM
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There is a grain of truth in that. I would change it to 'predators masquerading as priest' as it seems impossible to believe the tenets of that religion and still use your position to molest children.
Before everyone jumps down my throat, I am in no way defending pedophile priests, or embezzling priests, or the bishops who shuffled the pervs from parish to parish. As an observant Catholic, I probably hate these people more than you do. The sin of scandal (it's a technical term, meaning a sin that causes others to doubt their faith) is a very big deal in Catholicism. As is molesting children.

That said, of course it's possible to be a faithful Catholic and a sinner, even a child molester. We all are sinners in one way or another. We know this.
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Old 06-06-2019, 04:59 PM
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A smallish thing. Unless you're a Catholic who wants to receive communion.
"llinois House Speaker Michael Madigan and Senate President John Cullerton have been banned from receiving communion in Springfield-area churches because of their support for legislation that expands abortion access.The decree barring Illinois’ two highest-ranking lawmakers — both Catholic Democrats from Chicago — from taking the sacrament was issued by Thomas Paprocki, bishop of the Springfield Diocese, less than a week after an abortion rights bill won final approval in the legislature and was sent to Gov. J.B. Pritzker."


https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...605-story.html


I got yer separation of church and state right here, you hypocrite bastard.
I'm not defending Bishop Paprocki here, but how, exactly, is this a violation of the principle of separation of church and state?
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:09 PM
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They are 2 politicians. Their decision at work is the Bishop's motivation.
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:12 PM
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They are 2 politicians. Their decision at work is the Bishop's motivation.
I know that. And how is that a violation of the principle of church and state?
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:14 PM
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Catholics who oppose abortion do so because they believe it is the taking of a human life. Do you suppose this Bishop imposes his restrictions on the guy who gave Gacy his last injection?
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:33 PM
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Catholics who oppose abortion do so because they believe it is the taking of a human life. Do you suppose this Bishop imposes his restrictions on the guy who gave Gacy his last injection?
I don't know. I have no idea. It would be fine with me if he did, especially since the Catholic Church teaches, quite clearly, that the death penalty is always wrong.

Look, Catholic teaching on abortion is unambiguous. You may not agree with it. I may not agree with it.

But it is in no way a violation of the principle of of separation of church and state for a bishop to say that a Catholic who is in a state of mortal sin (as this bishop believes these legislators to be) may not present him or herself for Communion until he or she has cleared up that situation.

If I were, say, embezzling money from my employer (since that sin has come up before in this thread), I could not receive the Eucharist until I had confessed my sin and been absolved, and that absolution would be contingent upon a firm purpose of repentance, and probably making restitution, and certainly not doing it again. The same principle is being applied in this case, except that since the legislators' action is public, the local ordinary has publicly said they may not receive communion.

There is no church and state issue here.

There's my explanation of my thinking. Where's yours? I genuinely don't understand how you see this as a church/state issue.
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:48 PM
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The sin of scandal (it's a technical term, meaning a sin that causes others to doubt their faith) is a very big deal in Catholicism. As is molesting children.

That said, of course it's possible to be a faithful Catholic and a sinner, even a child molester. We all are sinners in one way or another. We know this.
Can you demonstrate how the Catholic Church has treated scandal as a big deal? Can you demonstrate how the Catholic Church has treated priests molesting children as a big deal? 'Cause I ain't seeing it.
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:52 PM
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They are 2 politicians. Their decision at work is the Bishop's motivation.
The separation of Church of State applies to actions by the State. It does not apply to actions by the Church.
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:52 PM
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The Bishop has made a decision based on nothing but state politics. He can keep his fucking mouth shut about politics, or the Catholic church can pay taxes.
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Old 06-06-2019, 05:57 PM
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The Bishop has made a decision based on nothing but state politics. He can keep his fucking mouth shut about politics, or the Catholic church can pay taxes.
While I agree that religions should not be exempt from taxation, the ostensible motivation for their tax-exempt status is to prevent the government interfering with religious organizations, not the other way around.

Should we try to bar religious organizations from influencing public policy? Perhaps, along with corporations and evil billionaires. But there's nothing in the Constitution that prevents it at the moment. And what form would such a policy take? We surely can't ask members of Congress to try to disregard their own religious convictions when voting.

Last edited by Riemann; 06-06-2019 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:02 PM
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I guess all we can do is expect people who can reason and have sympathy for abused children to abandon the greedy guilt and accountability free finger pointing hypocrites.

Last edited by bobot; 06-06-2019 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:05 PM
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Fuck this thread, I'll see you elsewhere on the board.
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:21 PM
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Can you demonstrate how the Catholic Church has treated scandal as a big deal? Can you demonstrate how the Catholic Church has treated priests molesting children as a big deal? 'Cause I ain't seeing it.
The Catholic Church's response to sexual abuse committed by its priests, and hidden away by its bishops, has been shameful. I'm not trying to argue otherwise.

I was merely trying to put the actions of the Bishop of Springfield into the context of Catholic ecclesiology.

Last edited by Saintly Loser; 06-06-2019 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:24 PM
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The Bishop has made a decision based on nothing but state politics. He can keep his fucking mouth shut about politics, or the Catholic church can pay taxes.
The Bishop has made a decision based on his Church's teaching on abortion.

You may disagree with that teaching. You may (like me) think the Bishop's action is counter-productive, and perhaps even hypocritical.

But I don't think it had anything to do with state politics. It's entirely consistent with the teaching of the Catholic Church on abortion.
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Old 06-06-2019, 06:33 PM
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The Bishop has made a decision based on nothing but state politics. He can keep his fucking mouth shut about politics, or the Catholic church can pay taxes.
Hey, you wanna tax the Church? You have my full and unwavering support!
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Old 06-06-2019, 08:04 PM
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The Bishop has made a decision based on nothing but state politics. He can keep his fucking mouth shut about politics, or the Catholic church can pay taxes.

A church's tax exempt status is not endangered by a church leader expounding or instructing on a moral issue, whch is what abortion is regardless of your stance. What would (or should) endanger the exemption is if a church leader were to support a particular candidate and instruct the flock to vote for them.
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Old 06-06-2019, 08:35 PM
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Alright, I'm back. Do you think the Bishop publicly ostracising these 2 Democrats isn't telling his parishoners how to vote?? Yeah, ok. I'll do my best to leave you dumb shits alone now. Pray for me, fuckers.
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Old 06-06-2019, 11:42 PM
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No. It's telling those two Democrats what action their church takes against those two Democrats for what a church leader deemed their advocacy of the opposite view on something their church considers a moral issue. And given the number of RCs having sex out of wedlock and using contraception with their spouse and/or lover but still receiving the Eucharist, somehow I don't really think denying two politicians the Eucharist will change all that many votes.

Oh, and, Good God, you are a fucking moron, bobot.
  #40  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:56 AM
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The separation of Church of State applies to actions by the State. It does not apply to actions by the Church.
In Catholic Spain, it better. Any time priests do more than say "vote according to your conscience", the newspapers jump down their throat but do it after the congregation. We've had priests who were in different Parliaments or City Halls, but always under dispensation and while not holding "priest-jobs". One of the newest MPs is a Minister in the Iglesia Evangélica whose main issue is the protection of children: his own daughter was murdered by a pedophile
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  #41  
Old 06-07-2019, 02:31 AM
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No. It's telling those two Democrats what action their church takes against those two Democrats for what a church leader deemed their advocacy of the opposite view on something their church considers a moral issue. And given the number of RCs having sex out of wedlock and using contraception with their spouse and/or lover but still receiving the Eucharist, somehow I don't really think denying two politicians the Eucharist will change all that many votes.

Oh, and, Good God, you are a fucking moron, bobot.
No, you're just not thinking critically.

You just cited multiple other moral issues. But the Catholic church did not choose to publicly disavow people for those.

A Catholic in this thread admitted they may not agree with their church on abortion. If so, they would be guilty of the same "crime," but they have not been publicly excommunicated. And whether they are guilty or not, many Catholics who are pro-choice publicly have not been publicly excommunicated. Most Democratic Catholics are pro-choice, in fact. It's kinda part of the platform.

Thus it is obvious, with even a minimum of critical thinking, to see that this was not something they were required to do by their religion. It was a choice to make a public statement about these particular political figures.

bobot is right to not accept that as an excuse.
  #42  
Old 06-07-2019, 04:22 AM
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The Bishop has made a decision based on his Church's teaching on abortion.

You may disagree with that teaching. You may (like me) think the Bishop's action is counter-productive, and perhaps even hypocritical.

But I don't think it had anything to do with state politics. It's entirely consistent with the teaching of the Catholic Church on abortion.
Is it? What is the teaching that says they must publicly announce the excommunication of anyone who is seen to politically support the pro-choice movement?

The closest I can see is that someone is automatically excommunicated when they procure an abortion. And that, if an offense that causes automatic excommunication is done in public, they may choose to publicly inform them.

And, even then, an automatic excommunication requires the priest to still allow them to partake in Mass. Only an excommunication Sententiae ferendae would forbid one from taking the Eucharist, yet I see nothing under the requirements where anything about abortion would fit.

It doesn't actually seem to me that it's a religious requirement. At best it looks like a political interpretation of a religious requirement. At worst, it seems like overreach.
  #43  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:16 AM
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Well, let's see, there is the mega church leader arrested on 26 counts, including child rape, here
Quote:
García, the self-proclaimed apostle and leader of the Mexico-based church that counts 1 million followers, was arrested Tuesday in Los Angeles and charged with 26 felony counts, including child rape, trafficking and child pornography. California authorities also arrested two others affiliated with the church, and a third is at large.

The allegations sent shock waves throughout congregations across the U.S. Church leaders issued a statement categorically denying the allegations outlined in a 19-page complaint filed by California Attorney General Xavier Becerra's office.
But church leaders denied it. Maybe they can move this guy to another mega church and everybody can just forget the whole thing.

Then there is Missouri, requiring medically unnecessary pelvic exams as a requirement to get an abortion, here

Quote:
Today I was forced by the state of Missouri to perform an unnecessary pelvic exam on a patient terminating her pregnancy for a fetal anomaly. She is heartbroken over her situation and I was forced to do an invasive, uncomfortable exam. It broke me as a physician to do this to her

— DrAmyA (@AmyAddante) June 3, 2019
Gotta love those Bible beaters, forcing the state to in effect rape women if they seek an abortion.

Hopefully these awful events will help focus attention on the horrible scourges of consensual homosexuality among adults and also the vermin streaming across the Southern border. Remember folks, everyone is a sinner, so just because it seems 1 out of 5 church leaders is a child molester these days doesn't invalidate the Eternal Rule of Both Sides Do It: you're a sinner too, so shut your fucking yap about all this rape.
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  #44  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:29 AM
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Thus it is obvious, with even a minimum of critical thinking, to see that this was not something they were required to do by their religion. It was a choice to make a public statement about these particular political figures.

bobot is right to not accept that as an excuse.
You're not reading the context of the conversation. If bobot had just said "get the fuck out of public policy, you regressive assholes", or criticized the tax-exempt status of religious organizations, there would no doubt have been enthusiastic agreement. But he suggested that it was a violation of separation of church/state, and that's what was being addressed. It may be a violation of church/state in a more generalized sense of principle, but in the U.S. that usually means the First Amendment - and some were pointing out that the Establishment Clause limits government actions wrt religion, it does not bar religious organizations from lobbying government.

Last edited by Riemann; 06-07-2019 at 09:31 AM.
  #45  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:46 AM
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ETA: and similarly the tax-exempt status is similarly intended to prevent government interference with religion, it was not intended to be conditional upon religious organizations staying out of politics - although perhaps it should be.
  #46  
Old 06-07-2019, 11:13 AM
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All these posts and no one has yet mentioned Rabbi Hillel Handler, Friend of Measles?

"Handler has a long history of supporting radical causes on the far right-wing fringes of Jewish opinion.

Handler has fiercely attacked observant Jews for reporting child sex abuse to police, claiming such accusations should be handled by rabbinic authorities. He once even defended a rabbi who was convicted of raping his own daughter, saying the girl was lying about the abuse.

Handler also opposed efforts to regulate metzizah b’pei, a controversial circumcision rite that health officials say can spread deadly herpes to newborn boys."


https://www.nydailynews.com/news/pol...soa-story.html
  #47  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:13 PM
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How about a Catholic school principal who takes some of the children in his school on a field trip, and while they are sleeping, decides to demonstrate exemplary Christian behavior to his wards by going out to a strip club, getting drunk, refusing to pay his bill, fighting with police, and getting arrested?

https://abc7chicago.com/catholic-sch...-trip/5327951/
It's idle speculation on my part, but I think this is exactly what Jesus would do.

j
  #48  
Old 06-07-2019, 12:17 PM
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Before everyone jumps down my throat, I am in no way defending pedophile priests, or embezzling priests, or the bishops who shuffled the pervs from parish to parish. As an observant Catholic, I probably hate these people more than you do. The sin of scandal (it's a technical term, meaning a sin that causes others to doubt their faith) is a very big deal in Catholicism. As is molesting children.

That said, of course it's possible to be a faithful Catholic and a sinner, even a child molester. We all are sinners in one way or another. We know this.
The problem isn't just the odd child molester, that problem is the culture that puts "the sin of scandal" as you call it at a higher priority than the safety and well being of children. This is what causes priests to worry more about what calling the cops on a child molester will do to the churches reputation than about all of the children who will suffer life altering emotional damage if the cops aren't called.
  #49  
Old 06-07-2019, 02:39 PM
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Is it? What is the teaching that says they must publicly announce the excommunication of anyone who is seen to politically support the pro-choice movement?

The closest I can see is that someone is automatically excommunicated when they procure an abortion. And that, if an offense that causes automatic excommunication is done in public, they may choose to publicly inform them.

And, even then, an automatic excommunication requires the priest to still allow them to partake in Mass. Only an excommunication Sententiae ferendae would forbid one from taking the Eucharist, yet I see nothing under the requirements where anything about abortion would fit.

It doesn't actually seem to me that it's a religious requirement. At best it looks like a political interpretation of a religious requirement. At worst, it seems like overreach.
Were these legislators excommunicated? I didn't get this from the story. Maybe there's more to this than I know, but I didn't understand that they were actually excommunicated.
  #50  
Old 06-07-2019, 03:05 PM
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"llinois House Speaker Michael Madigan and Senate President John Cullerton have been banned from receiving communion in Springfield-area churches because of their support for legislation that expands abortion access
..
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