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  #51  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:13 PM
SenorBeef SenorBeef is online now
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Originally Posted by Steve MB View Post
What's up with this bizarre claim he pulled out of his ass (maybe the smell is why he's sniffing so much) that the Democrats asked him to change the design from concrete to steel?
a few weeks ago Trump removed sanctions on a steel producer owned mostly by a Russian oligarch. Around that time he decided that the wall would be made of steel slats rather than concrete. One of those 400 coincidences where his policy changes are in line with Russian interests purely by chance I'm sure.

Pictured here

I like that they highlighted and zoomed in on the spikes, just to make sure everyone knew it was hurty enough.

I like to imagine drug smugglers coming to the border and slipping packages of heroin through the slats to their compatriots on the other side.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 01-08-2019 at 11:14 PM.
  #52  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:18 PM
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Not only that, he's hung like a hamster.
Hamsters have HUGE testicles in comparison to their body size. Fact check!
  #53  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:19 PM
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a few weeks ago Trump removed sanctions on a steel producer owned mostly by a Russian oligarch. Around that time he decided that the wall would be made of steel slats rather than concrete. One of those 400 coincidences where his policy changes are in line with Russian interests purely by chance I'm sure.

Pictured here

I like that they highlighted and zoomed in on the spikes, just to make sure everyone knew it was hurty enough.

I like to imagine drug smugglers coming to the border and slipping packages of heroin through the slats to their compatriots on the other side.
Each slat will be on a pivot and will have a sensor and a motor. Anyone approaches too close, the slats will swing shut like a Venetian blind.

  #54  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:20 PM
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What are the comparable stats for American citizens in the same time period?
Why does it matter? These people are not supposed to be here. Those numbers should be zero. Those numbers represent American victims of crime that would otherwise be safe from crime if the borders were secure.
  #55  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:20 PM
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My god. Finally, even on Fox "News," someone said the emperor has no clothes.
Pfffft. It's Shep Smith, their token sane person. No true Foxite will pay any attention to him.
  #56  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:22 PM
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I like to imagine drug smugglers coming to the border and slipping packages of heroin through the slats to their compatriots on the other side.
They could improve the functionality and aesthetics of the barrier by having colour coded mail slots built in to ensure the transaction was secure. Wouldn't want the packages to fall into the hands of the wrong distribution channel.

Last edited by penultima thule; 01-08-2019 at 11:23 PM. Reason: added quote for context
  #57  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:25 PM
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I’m fucking livid about this “imagine if it were your child” shit (in regards to people being killed by illegal immigrants). Fucking livid. “Congress must act”. What about the hundreds of American children who are killed by Americans with guns? Who was calling for Congress to act on that?

Also the whole “drugs coming over the border are killing Americans.” So the answer is a wall. But guns in America killing Americans? “Criminals will get guns anyway.”

Fuck all of this. Suck fucking twisted “morality.”
You'll be pleased to know that killing someone with a gun (or otherwise) is illegal in every state and those laws are enforced.

Illegal immigration is illegal, yet is not being enforced because of sanctuary cities and the lack of border security, so we need to address that.

But seriously, though, WTF do gun control arguments have to do with the immigration debate?
  #58  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:25 PM
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Luckily, my wife and I continued watching our binge of E.R. on Hulu. It was the season 4 finale tonight! Really good stuff, although arguably the weakest finale of all the seasons thus far.

At 9:03, I asked my wife if we should cut over to a live feed of Orangeanus, and she said "There's a methadone-addicted baby's life on the line here, and Doug Ross' career may be too. The answer is no."
  #59  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:29 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Illegal immigration is illegal, yet is not being enforced because of sanctuary cities and the lack of border security, so we need to address that.
Sanctuary cities do not stop ICE from coming in and deporting a illegal, what they do is say that the local Police won't assist ICE unless that person is a felon.

Which I find completely reasonable. Illegal immigration is a very low level crime, and virtually nothing should be spent on arresting people already in- as long as violent crimes continue to plague this nation.


https://americasvoice.org/blog/what-...anctuary-city/
  #60  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by EddyTeddyFreddy View Post
Pfffft. It's Shep Smith, their token sane person. No true Foxite will pay any attention to him.
I wonder why they continue to employ him? I mean, throw off those shackles of truth and go full-on Glavlit! (Wiki)
  #61  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:30 PM
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Why does it matter? These people are not supposed to be here. Those numbers should be zero. Those numbers represent American victims of crime that would otherwise be safe from crime if the borders were secure.
Then I'm sure you would support mandatory jail time for those who supply the jobs they're coming for, right?
  #62  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:33 PM
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Why does it matter? These people are not supposed to be here. Those numbers should be zero. Those numbers represent American victims of crime that would otherwise be safe from crime if the borders were secure.
No, they wouldn't be safe from crime. Most criminals aren't illegal immigrants, so the Americans you're clutching pearls over would have pretty much the same chance of encountering a criminal.

Weird you're not worried about smallpox and leprosy. Trump said foreigners carry those diseases after all, and would he lie?
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  #63  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:35 PM
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Sanctuary cities do not stop ICE from coming in and deporting a illegal, what they do is say that the local Police won't assist ICE unless that person is a felon.

Which I find completely reasonable. Illegal immigration is a very low level crime, and virtually nothing should be spent on arresting people already in- as long as violent crimes continue to plague this nation.


https://americasvoice.org/blog/what-...anctuary-city/
This "low level crime" costs taxpayers billions of dollars each year. It allows widespread disrespect for the law and causes additional crimes, but, hey, it gives Democrats a bunch of extra votes, so I guess it is worth it.
  #64  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:35 PM
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The fact that it's a Constitutionally-protected right makes it a bit different than immigration policy.
My problem isn't with immigrants vs. guns it's with the assertion that the nation's opioid crisis is connected to people walking across the border with heroin. The opioid crisis isn't because of Hondurans walking across with one balloon of smack at a time. A wall isn't going to fix the opioid crisis.

If congress NEEDS TO ACT to create this ham-fisted fix to the problem of drugs and the dozens of people who are killed by illegal immigrants each year (with a gun!), and the President is willing to throw $5.7 billion dollars at it, then why isn't anyone willing to throw $5.7 billion dollars at the issue of children being mowed down in schools? Even if it's ham-fisted.

I mean, imagine if it were your child.
  #65  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
You'll be pleased to know that killing someone with a gun (or otherwise) is illegal in every state and those laws are enforced.
And yet, for some strange reason, it keeps happening.

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Illegal immigration is illegal, yet is not being enforced because of sanctuary cities and the lack of border security, so we need to address that.
This is the biggest load of bullshit on Earth. When I go hiking in Coronado Memorial, I can stand on a mountaintop and see mile after mile of border fence. (Dare we call it a wall?). The border patrol agents roam the hills, automated cameras watch the border, and I can’t even drive to Tucson without passing through a checkpoint. And right now, as I type this, I am looking out my window at the FREAKING BLIMP the local Army post keeps for spotting migrants. There is a literal blimp hanging over my house for the exact purpose of spotting illegal migrants, and here you are telling me that our immigration laws are “not enforced.”

So forgive me if I am not impressed if some cop in California has more important crimes to investigate, given the tremendous amount of border security and federal agencies dedicated to enforcing that specific thing.

“Not being enforced.” What a crock of shit.

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But seriously, though, WTF do gun control arguments have to do with the immigration debate?
Guns are killing our children and illegal immigrants are not. I don’t know why it is so hard for you to grasp that concept. A man can shoot almost a thousand people in Las Vegas and Republicans absolutely do not give a shit, but they’re willing to shut down the government over the problem of illegal immigration. Holy fuck, that is stupid.

If I had $5 billion and a choice between building a wall and literally setting it on fire, I would be hard-pressed to tell you which idea is less useful. Either way, there are more important things to spend money on than chasing this nonsense.

Last edited by JB99; 01-08-2019 at 11:59 PM.
  #66  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:15 AM
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On the bright side, the networks won't fall for it again. He took his big shot, wasted their (and our) time, interrupted regularly-scheduled programming and accomplished nothing.

It was such an obvious abuse of his office he should be ashamed down to his tiny tadger. He won't be, of course. But he should.
It turns out that his speech was fairly successful when it comes to what it really was-a campaign speech for his reelection campaign. Before the speech emails went out on to all his supporter on the mailing list insisting that he needed their monetary support immediately for The Wall, and immediately after the speech another mailing went out to those who didn't contribute saying that The President was willing to extend the deadline a few hours "for you"(actually, everyone that didn't give for the cause)...but the funny part about this is that the money didn't go to The Wall-it went to his reelection campaign. Link, and link.

That's right. He conned the networks into running a campaign speech live.
  #67  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:23 AM
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Trump apparently made off-the-record comments to some news folks that he really didn't want to make this speech, and really doesn't want to go visit the border, but is only doing it because his advisers have told him it's a good idea. From a NYT article this evening:

Quote:
Yet privately, Mr. Trump dismissed his own new strategy as pointless. In an off-the-record lunch with television anchors hours before the address, he made clear in blunt terms that he was not inclined to give the speech or go to Texas, but was talked into it by advisers, according to two people briefed on the discussion who asked not to be identified sharing details.

“It’s not going to change a damn thing, but I’m still doing it,” Mr. Trump said of the border visit, according to one of the people, who was in the room. The trip was just a photo opportunity, he said. “But,” he added, gesturing at his communications aides, Bill Shine, Sarah Huckabee Sanders and Kellyanne Conway, “these people behind you say it’s worth it.”
You know, that almost sounds like an icy dose of reality has begun to take hold, a frisson of insight that the jig is nearly up. He did seem a bit defeated this evening, I was pleased to note. His approval rating is dropping fast and nothing he's doing makes any difference.

Gave me a smile to read. Thanks, Chefguy.
  #68  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:25 AM
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This "low level crime" costs taxpayers billions of dollars each year. It allows widespread disrespect for the law and causes additional crimes, but, hey, it gives Democrats a bunch of extra votes, so I guess it is worth it.
Extra votes would be possible only if they are legal or legalize their stay, the ones involved in crimes usually do not get that.

And in reality, just like prohibition, the real disrespect for the law is because many Americans do see the huge injustices that many immigrants are facing just because an elected troglodyte wants to make injustice prevail for DACA recipients or immigrants asking for asylum.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 01-09-2019 at 12:27 AM.
  #69  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
It turns out that his speech was fairly successful when it comes to what it really was-a campaign speech for his reelection campaign. Before the speech emails went out on to all his supporter on the mailing list insisting that he needed their monetary support immediately for The Wall, and immediately after the speech another mailing went out to those who didn't contribute saying that The President was willing to extend the deadline a few hours "for you"(actually, everyone that didn't give for the cause)...but the funny part about this is that the money didn't go to The Wall-it went to his reelection campaign. Link, and link.

That's right. He conned the networks into running a campaign speech live.
I'm glad you posted this, as it explains why I asked Ditka whether he'd sent his five dollars yet. Did Trump's suckers supporters fall for it and send a bunch of money?

Last edited by Aspenglow; 01-09-2019 at 12:30 AM.
  #70  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:30 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... His approval rating is dropping fast and nothing he's doing makes any difference. ...
He bounced around between ~40 and ~44 for pretty much all of 2018. His average approval rating today is 42.4.
  #71  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:33 AM
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He bounced around between ~40 and ~44 for pretty much all of 2018. His average approval rating today is 42.4.
Do you think the networks should have been told it was a campaign speech?
  #72  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
He bounced around between ~40 and ~44 for pretty much all of 2018. His average approval rating today is 42.4.
I follow 538, where it's 41.1. Down more than a full point since December 20th.

And remember, Mueller has only just begun in earnest.
  #73  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:38 AM
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Do you think the networks should have been told it was a campaign speech?
Which lines from the speech did you feel were particularly campaign-y?
  #74  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:39 AM
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I follow 538, where it's 41.1. Down more than a full point since December 20th.

And remember, Mueller has only just begun in earnest.
I don't think he's appreciably off the average for 2018, but you go ahead and believe whatever you like.
  #75  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:42 AM
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I don't think he's appreciably off the average for 2018, but you go ahead and believe whatever you like.
Kind of you to offer your unsought permission.
  #76  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:43 AM
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This "low level crime" costs taxpayers billions of dollars each year. It allows widespread disrespect for the law and causes additional crimes, but, hey, it gives Democrats a bunch of extra votes, so I guess it is worth it.
Umm, no. Immigrants are MORE law abiding that people born here.

And there isnt one recorded instance of a illegal voting in a national election.
  #77  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:45 AM
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Which lines from the speech did you feel were particularly campaign-y?
Did you see post #66?
  #78  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:56 AM
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I don't think he's appreciably off the average for 2018, but you go ahead and believe whatever you like.
Since the end of 2018, his disapproval is almost up 2 points, according to your link. Thats: 1) A pretty big shift away from Trump taking place in just over a week, 2) Not fully factoring in the latest on the shut-down, and 3) Not factoring what's coming with Mueller.

Do you really think his primetime nothingburger tonight stanched his bleeding? Do you think the Dems controlling the House committee gavels stanches the bleeding? Do you really feel good about his numbers being 11.5 underwater (and climbing)? Do you really feel good about Trump being underwater in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Iowa, Nevada, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, Florida and Georgia?

But, hey, if you feel good about his numbers, don't let us disturb your sleep at night.
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Old 01-09-2019, 12:58 AM
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Did you see post #66?
Yes. It did not appear to answer my question.
  #80  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:00 AM
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What are the comparable stats for American citizens in the same time period?
Why does it matter?
Wow.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 01-09-2019 at 01:00 AM.
  #81  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:00 AM
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Yes. It did not appear to answer my question.
Then you choose not to see the answer, and there is nothing I can do about that.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-09-2019 at 01:01 AM.
  #82  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:01 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
You'll be pleased to know that killing someone with a gun (or otherwise) is illegal in every state and those laws are enforced.

Illegal immigration is illegal, yet is not being enforced because of sanctuary cities and the lack of border security, so we need to address that.

But seriously, though, WTF do gun control arguments have to do with the immigration debate?
Ah, the nuances have escaped your notice; too bad. I'm not really inclined to explain it to you, but I did want you to know that I noted your trouble here.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 01-09-2019 at 01:03 AM.
  #83  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:01 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Since the end of 2018, his disapproval is almost up 2 points, according to your link. Thats: 1) A pretty big shift away from Trump taking place in just over a week, 2) Not fully factoring in the latest on the shut-down, and 3) Not factoring what's coming with Mueller.

Do you really think his primetime nothingburger tonight stanched his bleeding? Do you think the Dems controlling the House committee gavels stanches the bleeding? Do you really feel good about his numbers being 11.5 underwater (and climbing)? Do you really feel good about Trump being underwater in Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Iowa, Nevada, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, Florida and Georgia?

But, hey, if you feel good about his numbers, don't let us disturb your sleep at night.
No, his numbers aren't "good", but they're not really appreciably different from where they've been bouncing around for the last year. I think trying to characterize every little dip as "bleeding" or "dropping fast and nothing he's doing makes any difference" is silly, and I'm confident that our less-partisan readers will see that.
  #84  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:03 AM
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Then you choose not to see the answer, and there is nothing I can do about that.
So, no lines from the speech then? Alrighty.
  #85  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
This "low level crime" costs taxpayers billions of dollars each year.
No; it doesn't.
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
It allows widespread disrespect for the law and causes additional crimes
Nope; that's not true either.
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
but, hey, it gives Democrats a bunch of extra votes, so I guess it is worth it.
Nope, 3rd untrue thing in your post, and the post only contained these 3 things. Sad.
  #86  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:13 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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Umm, no. Immigrants are MORE law abiding that people born here. ...
"Immigrants" lumps in all the foreign exchange students, H1-B visa holders, green card recipients, and tourists with "illegal immigrants", which is the group that was the focus of the speech tonight.
  #87  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:22 AM
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"Immigrants" lumps in all the foreign exchange students, H1-B visa holders, green card recipients, and tourists with "illegal immigrants", which is the group that was the focus of the speech tonight.
Illegal immigrants are also more law abiding than people already living here.
  #88  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
No, his numbers aren't "good", but they're not really appreciably different from where they've been bouncing around for the last year. I think trying to characterize every little dip as "bleeding" or "dropping fast and nothing he's doing makes any difference" is silly, and I'm confident that our less-partisan readers will see that.
As much as I dislike Trump, and as much as I frequently disagree with HD, he's spot on here. Yes, Trump's aggregated approval rating on 538 has been trending down in recent weeks, but that change is still very small. As HD noted, Trump's approval rating throughout 2018 wobbled around in a pretty narrow range of 40-44%.

I study these kinds of numbers (in a marketing context) for a living. Right now, if I were analyzing those numbers for a client, my observation would be "the trend doesn't look great, but it's not dropped low enough, or declined for long enough, for me to feel confident that it's evidence of a real change in the market."

In other words: if it continues the downward trend of the past few weeks, and drops below 40%, and *stays* below that range where he's been for the past year, *then* I might start to suspect that there's an erosion in his support. Right now, it's too hard to tell if it's something bigger than the usual small-scale up and down from the daily news cycle, and / or statistical variance.
  #89  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:28 AM
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"Immigrants" lumps in all the foreign exchange students, H1-B visa holders, green card recipients, and tourists with "illegal immigrants", which is the group that was the focus of the speech tonight.
while that is true, there's no solid actual stats for crimes committed by illegal immigrants, but overall there's no reason to suspect they arent the same.
  #90  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:36 AM
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Hamsters have HUGE testicles in comparison to their body size. Fact check!
I had a hamster who's nuts were huge, I thought my hamster was just special, guess not.

Edit: MS-13 just stole my car and job as I was typing this. Should have parked it in the bailey, damn.

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  #91  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:27 AM
HurricaneDitka HurricaneDitka is online now
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... there's no solid actual stats for crimes committed by illegal immigrants...
This is my understanding as well. I think the sparse research that has been done in this area comes from heavily-biased sources to boot. I'd call it an unknown at this point, or perhaps an uncertainty.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 01-09-2019 at 02:29 AM.
  #92  
Old 01-09-2019, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
The NY Times is fact checking while the speech is going on:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/u...mp-speech.html
Quote:
Here’s what the president said, and how it stacks up against the facts.

“Every week 300 of our citizens are killed by heroin alone, 90 percent of which flows across our southern border.”

This needs context.

Most heroin smuggled into the United States does come through the southwest border, according to the Drug Enforcement Administration’s latest National Drug Assessment report.

But most fentanyl enters the United States from packages mailed directly from China through traditional ports of entry, according to the report, and through Canada from China. A lower potency, lower-cost grade of fentanyl is also smuggled across the southwest border from Mexico. The fentanyl directly from China is far more lucrative for sellers because of its higher purity. The fentanyl sent through conventional mail packages are proven difficult for law enforcement to detect. Fentanyl coming from Mexico is often hidden in automobile compartments, much like conventional drug smuggling.

The president’s opioids commission reported last November noted, “We are losing this fight predominately through China.”
Fentanyl is a synthetic opioid. Why do we have to import it from China and Mexico? What's happened to this country?
  #93  
Old 01-09-2019, 03:12 AM
guizot guizot is offline
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
So, no lines from the speech then? Alrighty.
Are you kidding? The whole topic--the entire reason why it's even an issue--is because of the campaign. Most of the people can see through him now, so the only thing left that he can do is pander to those remaining suckers who still fall for his dog-and-pony show--that's Trump campaigning.

The media were expecting something different, and all they got was the same old bullshit--Trump's eternal campaign. The fundraising letters--which deceived their recipients into thinking the money would go for the wall--was just the final touch of shameless venality.
  #94  
Old 01-09-2019, 03:13 AM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
On the bright side, the networks won't fall for it again. He took his big shot, wasted their (and our) time, interrupted regularly-scheduled programming and accomplished nothing.
Oh, I hope that's wrong. It was wonderful to watch that imbecile struggle to awkwardly read a speech like a scared seventh-grader giving a book report. I want to see more of this, in this exact same format. I imagine it'll end his reputation for charisma. Plus, bonus, we should throw in a couple big words, just to watch him struggle through them. And the sniffles!

Oh, and nine minutes is the right length. Short enough to be the cringey sort of funny, while not being so long as to be boring.

EDIT: Hahahaha the pauses at the wrong points in the sentences! Hahahahahaha! More more more!
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Last edited by Evil Economist; 01-09-2019 at 03:14 AM.
  #95  
Old 01-09-2019, 03:24 AM
Evil Economist Evil Economist is offline
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"America's heart broke the day [LONG PAUSE AT THE WRONG POINT] after Christmas."

"In California an illegal immigrant was charged with murder for killing [LONG PAUSE AT THE WRONG POINT] beheading and dismembering his neighbor."

"Over the last several years I've met with dozens of families whose loved ones were stolen [LONG PAUSE AT THE WRONG POINT] by illegal immigration" [P.s. "stolen by illegal immigration"? This idiot can't even read off a card properly.]

And so much more. So wooden. So bad. Like when an athlete goes on SNL and awkwardly reads from the cue cards during his skits (except for the "athlete" part, of course. And the humor (other than the unintentional kind))
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That year, according to Vanity Fair, Mary Trump asked Ivana Trump, her soon-to-be-ex-daughter-in-law, a pointed question. “What kind of son have I created?”

Last edited by Evil Economist; 01-09-2019 at 03:25 AM.
  #96  
Old 01-09-2019, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by guizot View Post
Are you kidding? The whole topic--the entire reason why it's even an issue--is because of the campaign. Most of the people can see through him now, so the only thing left that he can do is pander to those remaining suckers who still fall for his dog-and-pony show--that's Trump campaigning.

The media were expecting something different, and all they got was the same old bullshit--Trump's eternal campaign. The fundraising letters--which deceived their recipients into thinking the money would go for the wall--was just the final touch of shameless venality.
I think you misunderstand Trump supporters. They KNOW he was bull shitting. They just don't care.

I recently saw an interview with some coal miners that lost their job Trump promised to save. They still think Trump is the greatest thing ever.
  #97  
Old 01-09-2019, 05:18 AM
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I guess it must have been a pretty decent speech if the criticism has already regressed to complaints about his genitals.
I mean, what's there to really criticize? It's the same speech he always gives, and it boils down to one handy phrase: "Immigrants are coming over the border to kill you". This is a classic chestnut of demagogery, used against any group of people the dominant social demographic does not like to spread fear and hatred against them. Age-old, time-tested, not really much to say about it.

It's really simple. In any demographic, as long as it's large enough, there will be some people who commit heinous crimes. That's just a matter of statistics - it doesn't matter who you're talking about. And once you have a handful of cases like that, you can harp on them endlessly, treating them as the Most Important Thing we all need to be talking about. And at that point, it doesn't matter if most of that demographic are innocent, or even if that demographic is statistically far less likely to commit that sort of crime; when people think of that demographic, what comes to mind is that one fucking example. It's so easy! You can do this with Mexican immigrants. You can do this with Syrian refugees. You can do this with Jews literally anywhere in Europe. You can do it with freakin' cardiologists! You can do it with the police - as I'm quite sure any opponent of #BlackLivesMatters knows all too well*. And it's especially easy to do with immigrants, as UltraVires shows us nicely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Why does it matter? These people are not supposed to be here. Those numbers should be zero. Those numbers represent American victims of crime that would otherwise be safe from crime if the borders were secure.
See? We could have a billion illegal immigrants and if even one of them is anything less than a fucking saint, none of them should get to stay, and we should spend the effort to arrest and deport each and every one of them. Let no expense be spared in driving this population from our lands, lest even one of them steal a fucking candy bar from a convenience store.

Exaggerated, sure. But that's the logical conclusion of this position. That's the point of metaphors like the "bowl of skittles"; the scope, of course, being hidden and distorted. Because why else should our national consciousness be gripped by the existence of the handful of anecdotes that get bandied about over and over again?

To take it from a CurrentAffairs article I recently read:
So much for Murray’s tone: What about his analysis of the social problems caused by immigration? Arguing about public policy with someone whose anti-immigration is always uniquely frustrating, because your opponent has a trump card they wouldn’t otherwise be able to use in any normal debate; which is to say, “What if a whole gigantic population of people I don’t like simply vanished, taking their problems with them?” Take, for example, the issue of mass school shootings in the U.S. This is a complicated problem, and I might posit a variety of contributing factors that need to be examined: easy availability of firearms, lack of access to mental health support, toxic masculinity, the stultifying atmosphere of U.S. schools, and the attendant sense of powerlessness this creates in young people, etc. Now, imagine my opponent simply says to me, “This has gone too far. The problem is teenage boys. No more teenage boys. Get rid of them.” I might reply that there are a lot of teenage boys in the U.S., and most of them are not shooting anybody! And maybe the ones who are disposed to shoot people could be prevented from doing so if we reached them early enough! “No,” my opponent says, “that’s an unacceptable risk. There will be no more teenage shooters if we get rid of the teenagers. They have no right to be here. Their parents were foolish to have had them in the first place.” And of course, this is strictly correct; so what can I say?

This is approximately how it feels to argue about immigration. I can agree with Murray that somebody murdering a journalist over a Muhammad cartoon is bad, or that someone plowing a truck into a crowd in the name of Allah is bad, or that the mass groping of women at a rock concert is bad. I can point out that these awful events have complex causes, and that attempting to prevent future incidents of the same kind will require a lot of thoughtful community work. Murray will simply say that all of the people who committed the above-cited crimes are immigrants or descendants of immigrants; therefore, the problem is immigration, and the solution is to restrict immigration. If there are no immigrants, there will be no murders or sexual assaults by immigrants. Problem solved.

[...]

I don’t think our intuitions are very reliable guides here, and for me, differential crimes rates across immigrant populations, even if they existed, would not be a reason for an otherwise stable and prosperous country to refuse to admit immigrants, any more than I think the fact that men commit exponentially more rapes and murders than women is a reason to precautionarily exile all men to a Martian penal colony.


So yeah. Stupid xenophobic point, done to death, basically the only speech Trump ever gives. What is there to talk about? Even if every single fact and claim he offered was 100% accurate and on the level, the fundamental point they're building to is unreasonable - and, as Germany knows very well, dangerous. Interestingly enough, I'm not convinced the president would actually be allowed to hold that speech here in Germany - we have laws against "volksverhetzung" (roughly translated as "rabble-rousing", typically propaganda meant to spread hate and fear towards certain demographics, and you can probably guess why those laws exist), and this is a pretty classic case of it.

It's an extremely basic, extremely easy polemic to make, if you're willing to distort the facts and use cherry-picked anecdotes to stir up fear. It's been used for centuries, and at this point I'd just as soon we deport anyone who actually buys into this crap than any given illegal immigrant, as they are demonstrably more dangerous to the countries they belong to than any illegal immigrant could ever be. Perhaps the most noteworthy thing about the address is how little energy this guy put into such a basic emotional appeal. Like... dude. For these things to work you want your oratorical style to sound like Adolf Hitler, not Ben Stein on Quaaludes.

--

*Bipartisan cuteness aside, there are real systemic problems in the police that make abuses easier to cover up and harder to track that need to be addressed. It's not just a matter of "a few bad apples being blown out of proportion"; the thin blue line does an excellent job of protecting itself from investigations into its own abuses.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 01-09-2019 at 05:21 AM.
  #98  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:14 AM
Superdude Superdude is online now
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I wonder why they continue to employ him? I mean, throw off those shackles of truth and go full-on Glavlit! (Wiki)
Wild guess: Given the recent scandals involving Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes, maybe they're apprehensive about firing an openly gay man.
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  #99  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:32 AM
Steve MB Steve MB is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
That was some low-energy shit. What the fuck
I am reminded of:

Quote:
Spock: Captain, the speech follows no logical pattern.
Kirk: Random sentences strung together.
McCoy: He looks drugged, Jim. Almost at a cataleptic state.
--Star Trek, The Original Series, "Patterns of Force"
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  #100  
Old 01-09-2019, 07:32 AM
Steve MB Steve MB is offline
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
To take it from a CurrentAffairs article I recently read:
So much for Murray’s tone: What about his analysis of the social problems caused by immigration? Arguing about public policy with someone whose anti-immigration is always uniquely frustrating, because your opponent has a trump card they wouldn’t otherwise be able to use in any normal debate; which is to say, “What if a whole gigantic population of people I don’t like simply vanished, taking their problems with them?” Take, for example, the issue of mass school shootings in the U.S. This is a complicated problem, and I might posit a variety of contributing factors that need to be examined: easy availability of firearms, lack of access to mental health support, toxic masculinity, the stultifying atmosphere of U.S. schools, and the attendant sense of powerlessness this creates in young people, etc. Now, imagine my opponent simply says to me, “This has gone too far. The problem is teenage boys. No more teenage boys. Get rid of them.” I might reply that there are a lot of teenage boys in the U.S., and most of them are not shooting anybody! And maybe the ones who are disposed to shoot people could be prevented from doing so if we reached them early enough! “No,” my opponent says, “that’s an unacceptable risk. There will be no more teenage shooters if we get rid of the teenagers. They have no right to be here. Their parents were foolish to have had them in the first place.” And of course, this is strictly correct; so what can I say?
Trump, Murray, UltraVires, etc are essentially Dark Judges, who have followed the logic to its inevitable conclusion: crimes are committed by the living; ergo, the solution to crime is to kill everyone.
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Last edited by Steve MB; 01-09-2019 at 07:33 AM.
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