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  #851  
Old 09-26-2018, 06:56 AM
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Shoeless Shoeless is offline
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When Pastor Jimmy was talking to the ADA, I thought for sure that he blew it when he mentioned the assault on the police officer. (The old "he mentioned a detail that she never brought up" trope.) But I quickly realized that if the folks back home knew Huell was in legal trouble, then of course they would know why.

Next week's preview spoiler?
SPOILER:
Only two more episodes left this season!
  #852  
Old 09-26-2018, 07:36 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Thank you for putting the preview discussion in a spoiler box. There actually aren’t previews the way I watch it (on iTunes), but if there were I wouldn’t watch them.

I know in 2004 I got a prepaid cell phone from Virgin Mobile that allowed me to pick any area code I wanted. This is, what, 2003?

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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
That did seem like a weak point to me: Bob Odenkirk's Cajun accent really wasn't very good. (He's a multi-talented guy, but not really an accents expert.)
It sounded fine to me, but I’m a Yankee who’s never been to rural Louisiana (other than driving through it on the raised freeway). I expect this is similar to all the people who thought Marge Gunderson’s accent in the movie “Fargo” was spot-on, when people who actually live in Minnesota know it was terrible (although there were some other characters in the movie who sounded right). As long as the D.A. is not from that region, there’s no real concern here IMO.
  #853  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:00 AM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
I think the ADA knows she is being scammed.
I think this too. But please, no 10 pages on whether the ADA knows, thinks she knows or "know" knows.
  #854  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:16 AM
Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I think this too. But please, no 10 pages on whether the ADA knows, thinks she knows or "know" knows.
I am modifying my "knows" to "suspects". 10 pages to follow .
  #855  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:21 AM
Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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Originally Posted by Shoeless View Post
When Pastor Jimmy was talking to the ADA, I thought for sure that he blew it when he mentioned the assault on the police officer. (The old "he mentioned a detail that she never brought up" trope.) But I quickly realized that if the folks back home knew Huell was in legal trouble, then of course they would know why.
When Jimmy started riffing as the pastor, one of the film students pointed to the whiteboard where it said, "Keep it simple." Jimmy waved him off and carried on. I thought for sure that was foreshadowing Jimmy blowing it.
  #856  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:32 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
I think the ADA knows she is being scammed. She spent as much resource as she could spare trying to poke holes in the scam; by the time she was talking to Jimmy as the pastor she is realizing that the scam covered the bases well enough that she was risking getting in trouble with the DA and the judge if she spent any more time on investigating it. Add to that the fact that Kim will continue to burn the ADA’s resources with motions and continuances and it is clear it’s time to move on to more easily winnable cases.
I don't think so; if she has figured out there's a scam, the scam is a bigger crime than the sandwich swinging and would be worth investigating on its own. There would be multiple felonies in state, plus federal charges from crossing state lines, and the DA and especially judge would love to bring the hammer down on someone subverting the justice system. I think the ADA just finds the whole thing weird, she thinks something is off but it's one of those minor mysteries that you never really solve, she doesn't think that that Kim actually engineered people writing in letters. (This presumes that we don't hear more about her next episode and that she did drop the investigation. Obviously if she keeps digging into it as the season goes on, that would paint a different picture).

As far as 'knows' goes, I've braced myself and used the word a few times without the gnostics restarting that debate, so I think we're finally safe from that weird thing.
  #857  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:50 AM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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I was marveling at the four lawyers Kim brought to the meeting. As the ADA said, they were in the $200-300 per hour range, and Jimmy's bus trip also added to the expense. So how much, overall, do you think they spent on the deal? $10,000? $20,000?
  #858  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:59 AM
Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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This whole episode demonstrates that Kim is really, really good at engineering scams. Much better than Jimmy - her attention to detail is much better so she leaves fewer untied loose ends. This could head in an interesting direction.
  #859  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:49 AM
Martin Hyde Martin Hyde is offline
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It's with a heavy heart I have to say parts of this season really just seem...kinda boring to me. I'm probably one of the biggest Breaking Bad fans out there, and genuinely consider the previous seasons of BCS to be some of the best television I've seen, but I honestly think we've entered a part of the Saul and associate characters arcs....that frankly just aren't that interesting? I had hoped things would pick up when they did a time jump, and to a degree they have, but the first like 4 episodes of this season could've been condensed into 1 episode and we'd have lost nothing.

Right now the storyline I'm probably the most interested in is Nacho's and it's being given the least attention by far. I think until this episode the Kim and Jimmy line has been frankly pretty boring. I do think the scheme to get Huell off was pretty good and it largely worked for me. I think Jimmy's track into stealing figurines and selling burner phones was kind of meh.

I don't really have an issue with the Huell scheme working, I've had some exposure to the criminal justice system. A case like Huell's is the kind of case a prosecutor likes to dispose in about 30 minutes of work, the prosecutor had overcharged anyway, likely because of a personal dislike for Jimmy, and a real life prosecutor would've been amenable to at least some significantly watered down sentence/charge. Since it's a case a prosecutor cannot justify spending a ton of time or money on, in real life the moment a room full of high priced lawyers showed up for a minor offense, the prosecutor almost certainly would've found a way out and fast--these are public servants who have massive case loads. There's literally no fiscal or responsible way to justify a big effort on that case. Yes, if the prosecutor was aware they were being scammed they'd probably dig deep to prove it and get Kim disbarred/arrested, but since the prosecutor would want out of that case anyway it's not likely they'd do any kind of "due diligence" investigating into something that's not technically legally part of the case.

The stuff from the church and the fake character references would be a form of crime for Kim and Jimmy, but for the prosecutor's case against Huell they just represent PR nightmare which is how they'd likely address it (i.e. wanting to make it go away.)

The stuff about the super lab plays into I guess the characterization of Gus and Mike as being super detail-oriented and cautious, but I frankly find it a little silly. The reality is America is a huge country, and it's not a police state. The level of security is hilarious compared to the actual threat. We don't have state police running around checking every building for meth labs, there's probably far more meth labs that have just been thrown together in the U.S. and never discovered than have ever been found. The level of security and control they're exerting over the crew is frankly overblown, and to be honest the whole scheme is questionable. A much lower risk thing would've been to buy a commercial/industrial property that had suitable underground facilities already.

Last edited by Martin Hyde; 09-26-2018 at 09:50 AM.
  #860  
Old 09-26-2018, 11:49 AM
DrCube DrCube is offline
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The stuff about the super lab plays into I guess the characterization of Gus and Mike as being super detail-oriented and cautious, but I frankly find it a little silly. The reality is America is a huge country, and it's not a police state. The level of security is hilarious compared to the actual threat. We don't have state police running around checking every building for meth labs, there's probably far more meth labs that have just been thrown together in the U.S. and never discovered than have ever been found. The level of security and control they're exerting over the crew is frankly overblown, and to be honest the whole scheme is questionable. A much lower risk thing would've been to buy a commercial/industrial property that had suitable underground facilities already.
At this point I believe Gus is much more worried about the cartel finding out about the meth lab than the police.
  #861  
Old 09-26-2018, 11:50 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Hyde View Post
The stuff about the super lab plays into I guess the characterization of Gus and Mike as being super detail-oriented and cautious, but I frankly find it a little silly. The reality is America is a huge country, and it's not a police state. The level of security is hilarious compared to the actual threat. We don't have state police running around checking every building for meth labs, there's probably far more meth labs that have just been thrown together in the U.S. and never discovered than have ever been found. The level of security and control they're exerting over the crew is frankly overblown, and to be honest the whole scheme is questionable. A much lower risk thing would've been to buy a commercial/industrial property that had suitable underground facilities already.
I think the level of security is actually wildly inconsistent - on one hand they go through the trouble to quarantine the engineers in a warehouse with a security 'airlock' and 24-hour monitoring. On the other hand they have the engineers seeing the name of the laundry, wandering through the laundry while workers are still busy, and now hanging out in a strip club in town. If they kept the security super high the whole time then it would work for me, but they seem to have a weird mix of over-the-top, spare-no-expense measures sometimes, and half-assed 'lets just rent out a strip club downtown' at others. I would have a much easier time buying it if it was consistent, whether it was paranoid over-the-top or 'eh, whatever'. Also the security isn't really needed for the police, Gus's big concern is keeping the lab secret from the Cartel, since he needs to keep their noses out of it until the BB era.
  #862  
Old 09-26-2018, 12:20 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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I agree, the inconsistency is a significant flaw. It’s a shame, because I would enjoy seeing them maintain the initial level.
  #863  
Old 09-26-2018, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
I was marveling at the four lawyers Kim brought to the meeting. As the ADA said, they were in the $200-300 per hour range, and Jimmy's bus trip also added to the expense. So how much, overall, do you think they spent on the deal? $10,000? $20,000?
They definitely spent more than Jimmy typically does. The lawyers were $1000-$2000 for the time we saw (more if they did real work), the tableful of phones was probably another $500 (Jimmy gets them for $20 apiece when he buys by the pallet), the film students were probably around $500, the website would probably be another $500-$1000 (you need someone to build the website quickly, register the domain, and host it on a real provider), bus ticket is probably $500 round trip, then whatever they paid for materials and bus people to write cards. So that comes up to around $5000 pretty easily, but $10-$20k seems a bit much.

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This whole episode demonstrates that Kim is really, really good at engineering scams. Much better than Jimmy - her attention to detail is much better so she leaves fewer untied loose ends. This could head in an interesting direction.
I don't know about that - Kim covered more bases during the scheme, but Jimmy's schemes usually only involve him, a trusted partner, and interested people, so there really aren't a lot of loose ends to worry about once it's over. Mike and Pryce were the only ones who could tell anyone about Squat Cobbler, for example, and both of them had strong reasons to never reveal it. His various schemes with Marco and Kim only involve that partner. Huell certainly isn't going to reveal anything in this case, but the film students, website guy (someone created, registered, and arranged hosting the website), and people from the bus could all talk. There's an awful lot of people who could blow the lid and don't have strong incentive to stay silent. This is definitely an expansion in scope for Jimmy.
  #864  
Old 09-26-2018, 01:29 PM
Marvin the Martian Marvin the Martian is offline
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I think that the film students have been in on enough of Jimmy's schemes of questionable legality (the slip and fall at the music store, unauthorized filming at the Air Force base, etc.) that he considers them trusted partners. The website guy doesn't need to know about the scam, all he might know is he was approached by someone to set up a fundraising page for some church.

The people on the bus - I don't think that was in Kim's plan, I think Jimmy improvised it when his hand started cramping up. He also went overboard with the number of letters - Coushatta has a total population of just under 2000 and six Baptist churches. Subtlety is not Jimmy's strong suit. Kim probably wanted a few dozen letters and the threat of a busload of parishioners showing up in Judge Munsinger's courtroom.
  #865  
Old 09-26-2018, 01:36 PM
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TruCelt TruCelt is offline
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I find it curious that the German engineer blabbing secrets in an Albuquerque bar found not one, but TWO interested young parties holding onto his every word.
. . .
Doesn't surprise me at all. In a place like ABQ any foreigner is a novelty, and those guys may well have been in construction. Even if not, an older guy who knows his stuff is interesting. There's a tendency to assume a foreign person is someone important.

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. . .
Why does the lead German engineer need to know he's in Albuquerque?
. . .
I was gobsmacked that Mike's idea of R&R was to take a bunch of Germans to a public bar where they could get into who the hell knows what kind of trouble - potentially far more severe than what actually happened with that one unruly worker, mind you.
. . .
The Babineaux hoax (Babinheaux?) also seems to be on shaky ground....seems like there are a hell of a lot of ways that thing could fall apart under scrutiny.
. . .
Telling Werner he's in ABQ may well be the slip that gets him killed. Mike's not going to like that.

Yep, just dumb. Mike knew that Kai at least wanted more than a dance.

I don't think we've heard the last of that ADA. Jimmy's fingerprints are on every one of those letters.

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Kim's physical 180 last week was a metaphorical one too - I definitely didn't see her diving into a Jimmy scheme so enthusiastically.
. . .
Their scheme also seemed a LOT riskier than past ones - Squat Cobbler, for example, only required Pryce, Mike, and Nacho to stay quiet, and all of them have good reason to.
. . .
I was right that the Kai setup was all misdirection, though I didn't expect Werner to be the problem child.
. . .
Liked the look at Lalo deliberately antagonizing Nacho with the loud music and cooking. Will be interesting to see what kind of person he ends up being, he's the last major reference from Breaking Bad that needed to be filled in. I suspect that whatever he does will drive Nacho back to working with Jimmy.
The Kim story line completely surprised me too. Which is what I love about this show. I can usually see things coming but these guys continually catch me off guard.

I still think Kai doesn't make it. No way would I trust him to keep his trap shut. And I foresee him getting worse rather than better.

Snatching that earring was so gross. When Nacho was in the front chair he hated those tactics.Now he has all the stress, and certainly nothing about his home is providing solace. He's got everything he thought he wanted but nothing that he wants.

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His accent isn't really supposed to great - he's pulling a cheap scam, after all. It just has to be good enough to fool an overworked DA in Albuquerque.

"I got crawdads in mah pants!"
Shoulda said "mudbugs."
  #866  
Old 09-26-2018, 01:59 PM
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Ol' Kim gets hot for the con!
  #867  
Old 09-26-2018, 02:04 PM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Telling Werner he's in ABQ may well be the slip that gets him killed. Mike's not going to like that.
Well, they've also let them see the name of the laundry on the van, the license plate of the laundry van, any newspapers or flyers left by workers in the laundry building, the name of the strip club, and probably more. If they're trying to keep them from knowing where they are, they've already failed pretty badly. (And this is what I mean about inconsistent security).

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I don't think we've heard the last of that ADA. Jimmy's fingerprints are on every one of those letters.
Well, this wasn't the first of her either - I pointed out a while ago that she was the one trying to prosecute Tuco when Mike changed his testimony with Jimmy representing him. So regardless of whether she figures out that the letters are fake, I think she's going to be back as a foil for Jimmy and Kim in some capacity.

Quote:
The Kim story line completely surprised me too. Which is what I love about this show. I can usually see things coming but these guys continually catch me off guard.
What I like is that they don't do it in a cheap way, the surprises don't contradict what we know of the characters or come completely out of nowhere. We've seen that Kim enjoys scams throughout the series, she's just been averse to the risks and trying to live legitimately. It's not like they decided to have Howard or Chuck suddenly join in one Jimmy's tricks, or have Mike decide he likes Cracker Barrel.

Quote:
I still think Kai doesn't make it. No way would I trust him to keep his trap shut. And I foresee him getting worse rather than better.
Werner talked about how much he misses his wife back home, said this is the longest he's been away from her, and made plans to tell Mike a story once this is over. I think he's a goner. Talking about loved ones is setting you up for the pathos!

Quote:
He's got everything he thought he wanted but nothing that he wants
This show loves doing that to people.
  #868  
Old 09-26-2018, 02:47 PM
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So I think we're seeing the seeds of the end of Jimmy and Kim's relationship. He's a very bad influence on her. You could just see how utterly bored Kim has become with her banking law work - it can't hold a candle to the excitement and adrenaline rush she's getting from pulling scams with Jimmy. She may even become more reckless than Jimmy. He seems to be an opportunistic scammer - only pulling a scam when an opportunity to do so lands in his lap, or when necessity seems to require it. Kim wants to go looking for another one just because she gets off on it. That's really dangerous.

She's either going to get caught in one of these scams (maybe the last one - I don't think we've seen the end of that DA) and be disbarred in the state, or she's going to realize she's destroying herself being with Jimmy. Either way she eventually packs up and leaves the state, and Jimmy, behind. That's my guess anyway.

I also suspect that Gus is going to solve the German engineer problem by having them murdered after the project is finished. Or at least, by having the foreman murdered because he's shown a willingness to blab about a 'secret' project. That will be the incident that eventually causes Mike to ultimately betray Gus.

As for the Nacho storyline - Having a Salamanca stooge show up to take over is an interesting development, but how it plays out will depend entirely on Gus's reaction. Gus thought he had solved his Salamanca problem by putting Nacho in charge, since he 'owns' Nacho. Having another Salamanca show up throws a wrench into that, but killing him could be bad news with the Cartel, since this probably has the Cartel's blessing. So Nacho is really caught between a rock and a hard place.
  #869  
Old 09-26-2018, 03:10 PM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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That will be the incident that eventually causes Mike to ultimately betray Gus.
Why are you expecting that? Mike doesn't betray Gus in BB, Mike kept loyally working for Gus until Walt killed Gus without any help from Mike. He beat the crap out of Walt when Walt tried to get him to conspire against Gus, and even laments how Walt destroyed the 'good thing' they had going once it's over. If you expect him to betray Gus in BCS, how do you expect him to end up working as a higher up for Gus when BB rolls around?
  #870  
Old 09-26-2018, 05:18 PM
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I'll bet Mike totally loves Cracker Barrel!
  #871  
Old 09-26-2018, 05:38 PM
DrForrester DrForrester is offline
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Having a Salamanca stooge show up to take over is an interesting development, but how it plays out will depend entirely on Gus's reaction. Gus thought he had solved his Salamanca problem by putting Nacho in charge, since he 'owns' Nacho. Having another Salamanca show up throws a wrench into that, but killing him could be bad news with the Cartel, since this probably has the Cartel's blessing. So Nacho is really caught between a rock and a hard place.
Gus has anticipated this eventuality. He told Nacho to rest & that he wasn't done yet. I expect this will be a substantial part of the next season (assuming there will be another season). I think it is safe to assume that Lalo is dead by the time of BB because Gus tells Hector that he (Hector) is all alone, that he (Gus) has killed everyone, even Hector's grandson.

I loved seeing Crazy 8 sitting in the front chair. He looked absolutely terrified.... especially when Lalo was in the kitchen. Even if we don't know much about Lalo, it seems clear that Crazy 8 knows all that he needs to know about the guy.
  #872  
Old 09-26-2018, 06:40 PM
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It was announced that there will be a fifth season.
  #873  
Old 09-26-2018, 07:52 PM
Sam Stone Sam Stone is offline
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Why are you expecting that? Mike doesn't betray Gus in BB, Mike kept loyally working for Gus until Walt killed Gus without any help from Mike. He beat the crap out of Walt when Walt tried to get him to conspire against Gus, and even laments how Walt destroyed the 'good thing' they had going once it's over. If you expect him to betray Gus in BCS, how do you expect him to end up working as a higher up for Gus when BB rolls around?
Gah. It's been too long. I thought Mike had turned on Gus at one point, but I guess not.
  #874  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Marvin the Martian View Post
I think the ADA knows she is being scammed. She spent as much resource as she could spare trying to poke holes in the scam; by the time she was talking to Jimmy as the pastor she is realizing that the scam covered the bases well enough that she was risking getting in trouble with the DA and the judge if she spent any more time on investigating it. Add to that the fact that Kim will continue to burn the ADA’s resources with motions and continuances and it is clear it’s time to move on to more easily winnable cases.
Makes sense.

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... I expect this is similar to all the people who thought Marge Gunderson’s accent in the movie “Fargo” was spot-on, when people who actually live in Minnesota know it was terrible (although there were some other characters in the movie who sounded right).
Could be, yes. (I just found Bob Odenkirk's voice to be very distinctive, and accent-quality aside, thought the ADA would recognize him....but I'm happy to drop the subject. Show-world isn't real world.)


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Originally Posted by TruCelt View Post
I don't think we've heard the last of that ADA. Jimmy's fingerprints are on every one of those letters.
Yes, indeed.

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It was announced that there will be a fifth season.
Yay!
  #875  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:02 PM
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Anybody else think Jimmy's Louisiana accent was reminiscent of his Senator Tankerbell character from Mr. Show?

https://youtu.be/9m9Fv9O6AnU
  #876  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:10 PM
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If David Cross doesn't have a cameo on this show at some point, even if it's just for two seconds, I'm going to be really disappointed.
  #877  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:15 PM
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Yes, Jimmy and Kim got away with their scam (which was her idea), but what does it do for her reputation in Albuquerque legal circles? Certainly word will spread about the kind of clients she represents. Not really the sort of clients one expects from a respectable attorney, especially not one in the banking business.
  #878  
Old 09-26-2018, 11:01 PM
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Anybody else think Jimmy's Louisiana accent was reminiscent of his Senator Tankerbell character from Mr. Show?

https://youtu.be/9m9Fv9O6AnU
This whole thing is "Mr. Show".
  #879  
Old 09-26-2018, 11:35 PM
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E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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Yes, Jimmy and Kim got away with their scam (which was her idea), but what does it do for her reputation in Albuquerque legal circles? Certainly word will spread about the kind of clients she represents. Not really the sort of clients one expects from a respectable attorney, especially not one in the banking business.
So she's doing some pro bono work at the assignment of a judge, and really couldn't turn it down. BTW, I think here willingness to do whatever it took to win was more a reaction to the DA calling her boyfriend a "scumbag disbarred lawyer" than any real desire to help Huell.
  #880  
Old 09-27-2018, 06:41 AM
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(you need someone to build the website quickly, register the domain, and host it on a real provider)
It's a good thing no one in the DA's office knows how to use WHOIS:

Quote:
Domain Name: freewill-baptistchurch.com
Registry Domain ID: 2251169537_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.markmonitor.com
Registrar URL: http://www.markmonitor.com
Updated Date: 2018-09-05T14:52:07-0700
Creation Date: 2018-04-11T15:48:25-0700
Obviously the date in the TV show wouldn't have been 2018, but it would have only been a few days before the "save Huell" campaign. And this isn't a "save Huell" website; this is the church website, so presumably it would have existed long before Huell's legal issues.
  #881  
Old 09-27-2018, 06:50 AM
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It's a good thing no one in the DA's office knows how to use WHOIS:



Obviously the date in the TV show wouldn't have been 2018, but it would have only been a few days before the "save Huell" campaign. And this isn't a "save Huell" website; this is the church website, so presumably it would have existed long before Huell's legal issues.
In 2004? Not sure people were that tech savvy or it was that easy to do so for a layperson.
  #882  
Old 09-27-2018, 08:15 AM
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In 2004? Not sure people were that tech savvy or it was that easy to do so for a layperson.
WHOIS existed since the early 80s, and was a standard command on UNIX systems. Typical internet accounts in the 90s included access to a UNIX shell run by the ISP, and WHOIS websites existed by the late 90s. An average person today or then doesn't know much about it, but it's not obscure for someone technical, and the police in a city of 2 million people would have some technical investigators on staff in 2004. So it's a really easy thing to do and not just weird obscure knowledge or something you couldn't do in 2004.

OTOH, that's not a particularly hard track for Jimmy and friends to cover. The real domain was picked because it was something that was available in 2018 with minimal effort, they weren't trying to hide anything. In the world and time of the show, they'd put in a bit more effort. Domain name squatters (people who registered a bunch of names in the hope of reselling them later) were common back then, so if he bought the name from one of them, it would show a registered date of whenever the squatter bought it, not something extremely recent. And it's possible they could leave the contact info as the squatters or whatever hosting service the squatter uses, so there wouldn't even be a contact info change date. That is probably outside of the kind of expertise a broke film student would have, so they would need to get a tech guy through the vet to have done it, which ups the cost but isn't unbelievable.

So it's really reasonable for the writers to go either way, the domain registration could be something they screwed up, or it could be covered, and it's easy enough to cover, complex enough to explain, and not something a main character would be invoved in so I wouldn't expect to see it on the show.

Finally, this is all a sidetrack because if the ADA does think the Church is a fraud, they'd blow it open before they were even able to schedule time with the police forensics guys. They'd just call the local PD or sheriff (or whatever LA calls their local law enforcement) to ask some basic questions about the church, and then a few minutes of back and forth would find that the local cops have never heard of the place and the address is actually something else entirely. Once they know that it's fake, they'd pull the domain registration stuff along with a bunch of other records like the real estate records for the address (showing that the church is fake), plus local property tax, license, and voter registration rolls (to show that the people were fake), and phone records (to show that the numbers don't go to local land lines).
  #883  
Old 09-27-2018, 08:31 AM
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Finally, this is all a sidetrack because if the ADA does think the Church is a fraud, they'd blow it open before they were even able to schedule time with the police forensics guys. They'd just call the local PD or sheriff (or whatever LA calls their local law enforcement) to ask some basic questions about the church, and then a few minutes of back and forth would find that the local cops have never heard of the place and the address is actually something else entirely. Once they know that it's fake, they'd pull the domain registration stuff along with a bunch of other records like the real estate records for the address (showing that the church is fake), plus local property tax, license, and voter registration rolls (to show that the people were fake), and phone records (to show that the numbers don't go to local land lines).
Are ADAs in the habit of doing all this for one simple assault charge? Aren't there typically many other cases of more importance for her to be spending time on?
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Old 09-27-2018, 09:13 AM
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Finally, this is all a sidetrack because if the ADA does think the Church is a fraud,
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Are ADAs in the habit of doing all this for one simple assault charge? Aren't there typically many other cases of more importance for her to be spending time on?
You're overlooking the stipulation in the first line - if the church is a fraud, then this isn't one simple assault charge. If the ADA actually thinks the church is a fraud, she first calls local LEOs to ask for basic info about the alleged church (to figure out if it's a fraud using the Church's name or if it's actually involved), which quickly establishes that the entity doesn't even exist, and that takes less effort and cost than she actually spent looking into the letters. Once it's clear that the church is a fictional entity created in an attempt to fool the court, the investigation is no longer about overcharging a swinging bag of sandwiches. Instead it's a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he's going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine.

Last edited by Pantastic; 09-27-2018 at 09:16 AM.
  #885  
Old 09-27-2018, 09:32 AM
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Instead it's a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he's going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine.
A major case against who, though? Kim has enough plausible deniability. Jimmy is very unlikely to turn against her, and I'm not sure what leverage the DA has to force him to. If he takes the 5th, then what? Track down random bus passengers?
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  #886  
Old 09-27-2018, 09:42 AM
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You're overlooking the stipulation in the first line - if the church is a fraud, then this isn't one simple assault charge. If the ADA actually thinks the church is a fraud, she first calls local LEOs to ask for basic info about the alleged church (to figure out if it's a fraud using the Church's name or if it's actually involved), which quickly establishes that the entity doesn't even exist, and that takes less effort and cost than she actually spent looking into the letters. Once it's clear that the church is a fictional entity created in an attempt to fool the court, the investigation is no longer about overcharging a swinging bag of sandwiches. Instead it's a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he's going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine.
People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony?
  #887  
Old 09-27-2018, 09:46 AM
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You're overlooking the stipulation in the first line - if the church is a fraud, then this isn't one simple assault charge. If the ADA actually thinks the church is a fraud, she first calls local LEOs to ask for basic info about the alleged church (to figure out if it's a fraud using the Church's name or if it's actually involved), which quickly establishes that the entity doesn't even exist, and that takes less effort and cost than she actually spent looking into the letters. Once it's clear that the church is a fictional entity created in an attempt to fool the court, the investigation is no longer about overcharging a swinging bag of sandwiches. Instead it's a huge case, probably career-defining, that involves multiple major state felonies that constitute a direct assault on the functioning of the courts, plus federal charges for crossing state lines and using the mail. Instead of Judge Neelix being annoyed at the idea of charter busses of yokels flooding his court over a nothing case, he's going to be furious at the assault on the actual functioning of the court. Pulling records of every entity involved in a major case is incredibly routine.
This post does a great job of highlighting the unbelievable risk Kim took on with this scam.

I get that she's bored - the scene where the bank owner floats the idea of scrapping the work done so far to build an eyecatching new bank and Kim acts with due regard to her clients' best interest by sticking with the safe approach shows, in retrospect, how she's suppressing her instincts in service of the job and career. And ok - the "thrill" of pro bono work isn't what she thought it would be. But to go for something so over the top straight out the gate is manic.

Clearly it's a big thrill for her, but she must know the risk she just took. And yet we end with her saying she wants to do more. It's hard to believe this isn't a one way track to an outcome that is not necessarily to her advantage. Which is a big twist, because up to now it looked pretty clearly that Kim was on a different track to Jimmy and would prioritise solid career prospects and respectability over Jimmy's live fast die young approach to life's challenges. But no. Kim's poker face when confronted with Jimmy's shucking and jiving wasn't hiding disappointment or regret, it was hiding her envy and excitement.

Kim and Jimmy don't stay together. If it's not because she took the high road, is it because she's going to take the low and, metaphorically, crash?
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:07 AM
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A major case against who, though? Kim has enough plausible deniability. Jimmy is very unlikely to turn against her, and I'm not sure what leverage the DA has to force him to. If he takes the 5th, then what? Track down random bus passengers?
It's kind of a "Duh", but the high end lawyer weirdly interested in the minor case where a miracle happened, and the scumbag disbarred lawyer con-man who works with the defendant would be the obvious first suspects, then they'd add more as they find more names from digging. For a major felony case, pulling all of the records of every entity involved doesn't take a lot of effort and would happen long before they get to formally charging anyone. With the phone and website records, they'd almost certainly have shipping records on the phones pointing towards Jimmy and maybe whoever he worked with to get LA area codes on the numbers, plus whoever created and registered that website. Jimmy's literal fingerprints and DNA (licking envelopes) are all over the letters too, Kim's may turn up depending on how careful she was when buying the stuff (we didn't see her wearing gloves), his are definitely on file (he's been arrested in multiple states) and hers probably are (lawyers usually do, I think).

Whether they can actually convict anyone would be at the whim of the writers since it would involve a ton of stuff that's not explicitly shown, but there is a lot for them to dig into.
  #889  
Old 09-27-2018, 10:12 AM
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People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony?
If that's all that happens, nope. But what happened on the show involved more things than just people on a bus sending letters to a court.
  #890  
Old 09-27-2018, 10:15 AM
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In a world where District Attorneys have infinite time and resources (as well as the omniscient perspective given to us, the audience), I can picture her trying to go after Kim and Jimmy, at least until the first motion to dismiss.
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  #891  
Old 09-27-2018, 10:29 AM
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In a world where District Attorneys have infinite time and resources (as well as the omniscient perspective given to us, the audience), I can picture her trying to go after Kim and Jimmy, at least until the first motion to dismiss.
In the real world, DAs are generally quite willing to spend their limited time and resources going after people who attempt multiple interstate felonies that impact the functioning of the justice system. And judges are generally even more agitated by people trying to interfere with the courts than DAs, and actually usually don't dismiss cases where there is abundant probable cause like this hypothetical. If the ADA came back to Judge Neelix pointing out that the supposed church all of these letters were coming from doesn't exist, and the names on those letters actually don't turn up in the state they're supposed to be coming from, he would move rapidly from 'I don't want a circus in my courtroom' to 'who attempted to turn my courtroom into a circus'.
  #892  
Old 09-27-2018, 10:32 AM
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I don't know how that gets her to Kim at any point, though. If she's willing to blow her budget gathering DNA evidence on Jimmy, best of luck to her.
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  #893  
Old 09-27-2018, 10:40 AM
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People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony?
Also, to make clear how little you need to add to the situation to turn 'sending letters to court' into a major felony, if they simply sent the letters to a Federal Court instead of a NM court, they'd be risking five years in federal prison, as making any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry is a federal felony. I'm not going to bother digging into New Mexico's laws to figure out exactly what state statutes the actual show situation violates, or into Federal law to figure out exactly what Federal laws would come into play for sending things to a state court, because this is enough to show that sending false documents to courts is a really big deal in the justice system.

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Originally Posted by 18 U.S. Code § 1001 - Statements or entries generally
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.
  #894  
Old 09-27-2018, 11:34 AM
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Yes, Jimmy and Kim got away with their scam (which was her idea), but what does it do for her reputation in Albuquerque legal circles? Certainly word will spread about the kind of clients she represents. Not really the sort of clients one expects from a respectable attorney, especially not one in the banking business.
Fair point.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-27-2018 at 11:35 AM.
  #895  
Old 09-27-2018, 11:46 AM
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If that's all that happens, nope. But what happened on the show involved more things than just people on a bus sending letters to a court.
Well, a web site was set up for a church.

A go-fund-me type page was set up for Huel.

People made up information to a strange person who called them on the phone.

I'm still having trouble seeing the major felonies involved.
  #896  
Old 09-27-2018, 11:55 AM
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People on a bus sending letters to a court is a major felony?
Wouldn't that fall under mail fraud? I think Jimmy even mentioned it to Kim.
  #897  
Old 09-27-2018, 12:09 PM
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There's no expectation of personal gain for the letter writers (beyond getting paid for writing the letters themselves). And it's not illegal for me to get paid for writing a letter. (Now the intent on the part of the person paying me might be illegal, but that's their problem.)
  #898  
Old 09-27-2018, 12:57 PM
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I'm still having trouble seeing the major felonies involved.
That's really too bad for you then.
  #899  
Old 09-27-2018, 01:05 PM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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I'm still having trouble seeing the major felonies involved.
From the recap in The New York Times, "Standing outside a building that may become his new office, Jimmy lists the acts of legal malpractice the two of them just committed, including a couple hundred counts of mail fraud."
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Old 09-27-2018, 01:08 PM
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That's really too bad for you then.
I guess. Or I could just say "There are no felonies involved. You guys are wrong"

Sort of the tact you are taking instead of discussing it.

Perhaps you could explain how setting up a go-fund-me account for Huel is a major felony?

Or how a person on a bus writing a letter to a judge extolling the virtues of Huel is "mail fraud"?
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