Straight Dope Message Board

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Smapti

I'm under the impression that in WWII we did what had to be done, and if that meant burning tens of thousands of people in atomic fire, that was the price of doing business, and we didn't cry about it or assert that it was somehow "illegal".

Then you need to be educated on WWII.

Yes, there were plenty of instances of American soldiers being prosecuted for war crimes.

In all seriousness, where do you get most of your information?

Are you under the impression that war movies reflect reality? 2651

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

They certainly never tried to "divest itself of the population it didn't care to represent".

So you're telling me they didn't segregate the blacks into homelands that were granted degrees of independence?

They needed black people and they liked having them or were you unaware how many white families didn't have black maids and how few of their businesses didn't have black workers.

By that logic, America "needs" Latinos and Mexico is little more than a puppet state that we don't want to be autonomous or self-sufficient. 2652

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Yes, there were plenty of instances of American soldiers being prosecuted for war crimes.

"War crimes" started out as a fiction invented so we didn't have to think about the things we had to do to win wars. It took a few decades to evolve into something that prevents us from winning wars because we're no longer willing to do the things that need to be done - that's why ISIS is able to seize new territory every day while we wring our hands worrying that shrapnel from a bomb might cut an innocent person's cheek. 2653

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by Smapti

By that logic, America "needs" Latinos and Mexico is little more than a puppet state that we don't want to be autonomous or self-sufficient.

Well yes, your economy certainly needs illegal immigrants. 2654

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Smapti

So you're telling me they didn't segregate the blacks into homelands that were granted degrees of independence?

They created an illusion which made it easier for them to give gullible westerners reason to claim they were a democracy and made it easier to control the black population of South Africa by claiming most were illegal immigrants.

By that logic, America "needs" Latinos and Mexico is little more than a puppet state that we don't want to be autonomous or self-sufficient.

No, not even close.

Seriously educate yourself. I know you decided college wasn't for you, but there are things called libraries and the internet.

In the meantime, You've yet to explain why you have such an irrational definition of democracy whereby any country that claims it's a democracy is one so long as it purports to have regular elections, even if such elections are kangaroo elections(I did love the fact they you don't feel free and fair elections are necessary) and claim they want the best interests of their citizens.

BTW, you've yet to explain how exactly Iraq is a democracy committed to helping all of it's citizens while Syria can't be considered a democracy because you think they didn't.

Both Syria and Iraq had large religious and ethnic minorities. By your logic, the Iraqi Kurds and Mandaeans must have been treated really well and integrated into society while the Druze, Kurds, and Christians weren't.

Of course everyone remotely familiar with the area knows this to not be true.

Whatever made you think such a foolish thing?

Beyond that, you claimed that East Germany was "more democratic" than Poland or Bulgaria during the Warsaw Pact era.

Please explain how they were "more Democratic"?

Thanks in advance. 2655

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Steophan

Well yes, your economy certainly needs illegal immigrants.

More like immigrants and you'll notice just about all western economies depend on immigrants.

That said, Smapti's belief that the US or the UK depend on immigrants at remotely to the extent that Apartheid South Africa shows a stunning ignorance of proportion.

In South Africa until the fall of Apartheid, even the poorest of whites generally had black servants. I know of no blue collar whites in the US who had Mexican or Salvadoran servants.

I could be wrong, but I'll assume it's extremely uncommon for blue collar whites in the UK to have black or Asian servants. 2656

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by Smapti

"War crimes" started out as a fiction invented so we didn't have to think about the things we had to do to win wars. It took a few decades to evolve into something that prevents us from winning wars because we're no longer willing to do the things that need to be done - that's why ISIS is able to seize new territory every day while we wring our hands worrying that shrapnel from a bomb might cut an innocent person's cheek.

I'm betting that you like to describe yourself as being hard-headed and realistic. A no-nonsense kind of guy who can face the hard facts of life and make them just a little harder. 2657

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by elucidator

I'm betting that you like to describe yourself as being hard-headed and realistic. A no-nonsense kind of guy who can face the hard facts of life and make them just a little harder.

True. He's probably seen every episode of 24, has a poster of Jack Bauer he masturbates to before falling asleep, and has no idea that the US was executing people for war crimes at least as far back as the Civil War.

Unless of course he's been lying in which case I have to find it odd that he'd have been able to keep up the pretense for this long. 2658

[BigAppleBucky]

Getting back, sort of, on topic. A bit of sympathy for the cops who have to deal with racist civilians who sic the fuzz on innocent African Americans.

Cops To White People: Stop Getting Freaked Out By Your Black Neighbors (SCREENSHOTS and link to Reddit)

Ya know, I'm just going to complain and get some stuff off my chest.

So I'm working last week and get dispatched to a call of 'Suspicious Activity.' Ya'll wanna know what the suspicious activity was? Someone walking around in the dark with a flashlight and crow bar? Nope. Someone walking into a bank with a full face mask on? Nope.

It was two black males who were jump starting a car at 9:30 in the morning. That was it. Nothing else. Someone called it in.

People. People. People. If you're going to be a racist, stereotypical jerk...keep it to yourself. Don't call the police and make them get involved into your douchebaggery.
That's all. End rant.

2659

[rat avatar]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky

Getting back, sort of, on topic. A bit of sympathy for the cops who have to deal with racist civilians who sic the fuzz on innocent African Americans.

Cops To White People: Stop Getting Freaked Out By Your Black Neighbors (SCREENSHOTS and link to Reddit)

I have sympathy for the victims more.

On the topic of racist viral news I would hate to be on the SF PD and be associated with this type of crap.

"we celebrate whiteness" and that African-American women "should be spayed."

And due to the non-apology from one of them, I am doubly sorry for any citizens who have to interact with them.

"If I offended anybody, I'm sorry. I'm truly, truly sorry," he told CNN. "However, it's banter amongst friends."

I call my "friends" out when they make racist remarks, not sure how he thinks it made things better. Maybe because it was suppose to be "private" it is OK? 2660

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

True. He's probably seen every episode of 24, has a poster of Jack Bauer he masturbates to before falling asleep, and has no idea that the US was executing people for war crimes at least as far back as the Civil War.

We executed exactly one person for war crimes in the Civil War - a Confederate prison commandant. Nobody suggested that Sherman should have been executed for razing Atlanta because it was understood that's how you win wars. 2661

[grude]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky

Getting back, sort of, on topic. A bit of sympathy for the cops who have to deal with racist civilians who sic the fuzz on innocent African Americans.

Cops To White People: Stop Getting Freaked Out By Your Black Neighbors (SCREENSHOTS and link to Reddit)

I brought this up in the endless "black guy shot by police" threads, a lot of them start with a pointless call to 911 to report a black guy basically existing. But no one seems to call out these assholes who call the cops. 2662

[grude]

For everyone arguing with Smapti, this is a guy who said slaves should obey the law and their masters ! He literally said slaves in the USA should have obeyed their masters because it WAS THE LAW! 2663

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by Smapti

So you're telling me they didn't segregate the blacks into homelands that were granted degrees of independence?

Yeah, no-one believed this Potemkin Villages act except those quislings who actually ran the homelands.

Never mind that Blacks weren't the only people without representation. There never were Coloured or Asian homelands...

By that logic, America "needs" Latinos and Mexico is little more than a puppet state that we don't want to be autonomous or self-sufficient.

Well, yes, and yes.

That's why most guns used by the cartels are American in origin. Something that could be reduced if the US acted on it. 2664

[monstro]

From BigAppleBucky's link:

“Amipow,” another police officer, also shared his experiences with racism in his community:

I got a call once about someone illegally fishing in a community pond. The complainant advised that they had lived there for years, and knew that the person fishing didn’t live in the community.

Once I arrive, I see a middle aged black man fishing in the pond. He looks over when I pull up and immediately approaches me. He said, “Let me guess, my racist neighbors called again saying that I didn’t live here.”

“Yes, sir. That is what the caller said.”

“Here’s my license. I’ve lived here for 10 years, and they call on me every once and a while.”

“I’m sorry to have bothered your fishing. Have a good day, and good luck with your horrible neighbors.”

I'm going to remember that article the next someone tries to assure us that racism is a small, insignificant thing of the past. 2665

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Smapti

We executed exactly one person for war crimes in the Civil War - a Confederate prison commandant. Nobody suggested that Sherman should have been executed for razing Atlanta because it was understood that's how you win wars.

Umm no.

Seriously, you really deprived yourself by not furthering your education. To give a rather obvious example, both the Confederates and Union armies executed soldiers they found in enemy uniforms or civilian clothes.

Beyond that, thank you for having the decency to admit that your claim that the US didn't punish people for "war crimes" prior to WWII was jaw droppingly stupid and admitting that the US had a concept of war crimes long before then. 2666

[BigAppleBucky]

Year old incident, newly released video. Shows NYC cops upset when a kid tried to film their groping of a woman on the street. The video clearly proves they lied when they accused him of lunging at a cop and trying to punch him. 2667

[Shalmanese]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky

Year old incident, newly released video. Shows NYC cops upset when a kid tried to film their groping of a woman on the street. The video clearly proves they lied when they accused him of lunging at a cop and trying to punch him.

It seems the new rule of thumb now needs to be there should be at least one more camera trained on the scene than number of police officers present. A lot of the videos coming out are of a second person filming the police destroying the equipment of the first person. 2668

[elucidator]

Don't know if this has been brought up already but its important enough. The ACLU is supporting a site and app for instant uploading of citizen's recordings. If you are plugged into that, the police can take your phone and wreck it, but it won't do them any good. The age of the digital video witness is upon us.

http://www.wired.com/2012/06/cop-watching-app/

The answer to the problem is the people. Pretty much always is. 2669

[Euphonious Polemic]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky

Year old incident, newly released video. Shows NYC cops upset when a kid tried to film their groping of a woman on the street. The video clearly proves they lied when they accused him of lunging at a cop and trying to punch him.

Sexual assault
Falsifying arrest record
Lying
Destruction of evidence

Can anyone justify why any of these officers AND the people who covered up for them should be working in any capacity in law enforcement ever again?

And why the officers should not be facing a long prison sentence? 2670

[CannyDan]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Sexual assault
Falsifying arrest record
Lying
Destruction of evidence

Can anyone justify why any of these officers AND the people who covered up for them should be working in any capacity in law enforcement ever again?

And why the officers should not be facing a long prison sentence?

Smapti will be along any minute now. 2671

[Kinthalis]

Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic

Sexual assault
Falsifying arrest record
Lying
Destruction of evidence

Can anyone justify why any of these officers AND the people who covered up for them should be working in any capacity in law enforcement ever again?

And why the officers should not be facing a long prison sentence?

I'm sure Smapti will have you covered.

By the way, can we stop arguing with that sack of filth already?

This thread has been repeatedly derailed by him and people trying to argue with him! The fuck does the Civil War and WW2 have to do with Asshat cops?

Please let's try to ignore the idiot. Would be nice if he got some sort of official warning when attempting to derail.

Also: I lost the damn link and I'm on my phone, but I wanted ot give a shout out to the cop in Florida who arrested the sack of shit business man for drunk driving, despite the protestations of the Chief of Police, the City controller and various other officials.

We need more cops like you. I'll link as soon as I can, sorry. 2672

[eschereal]

Officers in upstate-ish New York, pretty close to Mahwah NJ, stopped a carload of thugs who were decked out in body armor – thugs whose legitimate job sometimes calls for wearing body armor.

The town's assistant DA, defending the constables,

… called the actions of the police officers "reasonable under the circumstances" and that the "parole officers had not notified the town that they would be in town."

And, yes, it was about race. 2673

[monstro]

You may remember the black homeowner who called 911, only to be shot by one of the officers responding to the scene. You may recall that according to the sheriff's office, the officers had given the guy clear instructions to put down his weapon. But because that silly negro refused to comply with this simple request, after much deliberation it was decided he had to be taken out. That was the story they told us.

Now we get the truth:

Dashcam recording indicates that deputy fired on homeowner almost instantly.

Why aren't these recordings ever released to the public right away? Why does the police always get a chance to tell their side of the story before we get to see what really happened? Because they were able to paint Heyward as a gun-wielding fool on a suicide mission, there are people who can listen to that audio and shrug it off as another incident where "both sides were wrong". We live in a society where a black man can be clearly victimized by both fellow citizens (criminals) and his government (police officers), and the average internet commenter will still lay the blame on him.

Heyward is now paralyzed from the waist down and unable to speak. Too bad for him that in the ambulance he supposedly blamed himself for the whole thing. The racist yahoos on the internet won't let that go. 2674

[elucidator]

Originally Posted by monstro

... Too bad for him that in the ambulance he supposedly blamed himself for the whole thing....

Hell, I would too, I'd sing the praises of the officer's intelligence and forbearance, and throw in several good thoughts about EMT personnel and ambulance drivers, salt of the earth, they is! Of course its all my fault, sure hope those nice officers weren't troubled too much punching holes in my sorry ass.... 2675

[Measure for Measure]

Originally Posted by monstro

Too bad for him that in the ambulance he supposedly blamed himself for the whole thing.

Funny thing is, when I'm in a confrontation, I reflexively do the same. It's polite: when I bump into a guy I say I'm sorry even if it's the other's fault. Apropos nothing, I understand that's a Japanese cultural practice as well.

In my experience assholes take the diametrically opposite approach. (Of course there's a happy medium.) Anyway, when I see an accommodating black guy get shot by the cops I think damn, that could of been me.

There's another example of this upthread; a black guy got shot while following the cop's instructions too quickly. With his hand on his gut and in pain, they guy asked why he was shot and apologized. 2676

[Leaper]

Mentally ill woman dies in police custody, "accidentally" according to officials. The reasons for her being in custody to begin with are apparently murky.

Perhaps relevantly, her race is... Oh, you'll never guess. 2677

[eschereal]

Originally Posted by Leaper

Mentally ill woman dies in police custody, "accidentally" according to officials. The reasons for her being in custody to begin with are apparently murky.

Perhaps relevantly, her race is... Oh, you'll never guess.

even more confusing,

... the police have yet to even explain why Natasha McKenna had been locked up in the first place. Natasha herself was the one who initiated police contact, having called 911 after being assaulted. From there she was moved between jails and hospitals continuously without explanation.

2678

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Leaper

Perhaps relevantly, her race is... Oh, you'll never guess.

You can that crap, you race-baiting liberal elite motherfucker. Don't you know #alllivesmatter ? It's a post-racial society you live in, and don't you forget it. Insinuating anything else is racist. 2679

[septimus]

Originally Posted by Leaper

Mentally ill woman dies in police custody, "accidentally" according to officials. The reasons for her being in custody to begin with are apparently murky.

Her death was the brutal, intentional, and of force so excessive that both of her eyes were blackened, a finger was amputated, she was covered in bruises, and never woke up again after being repeatedly Tasered by the police. Mind you, this was all done to her after her hands were cuffed, her feet were shackled, and a hood put over her head. Some reports also state that she was apparently stripped completely naked as well.

Natasha McKenna was 5 feet, 3 inches tall, and weighed just 130 pounds. Some reports suggest she was actually even smaller.

But in the deputies’ reports, several of those involved in trying to restrain her noted that she was so thin a standard “restraint belt” could not be used to immobilize her hands. “It was discovered that Inmate McKenna was physically too small in the torso for the belt to take effect,” one deputy wrote.
Six men, dressed in full riot gear (visors, helmets, and heavy padding) did this to her. "Accidental" would be if one of them tripped and fell and injured her. Every decision they made was deliberate and calculated and directly led to her death. Had they not made the decisions they made, she would still be alive today.

Sure does sound like an accident. But watch the libtards try to make it about police brutality.

Originally Posted by Leaper

Perhaps relevantly, her race is... Oh, you'll never guess.

I like a good challenge! Oriental Asian ? Portuguese from the Azore Islands ? Andamanese??? Scots-Irish? ... How many guesses do I get? 2680

[BigAppleBucky]

Figure it's about time for this to be linked here. (SIAP - I searched on Chris Rock without a return.)

Chris Rock ~ How Not To Get Your Ass Kicked By The Police

Some stuff in there for everyone. 2681

[BigAppleBucky]

Reaction to Madison Police Officer Matt Kenny being cleared in shooting of Tony Robinson

Officer Kenny cleared

From everything I've read, Robinson was an unarmed kid behaving very badly. Attacking people and was invading a house when shot by the cop. Yes, too bad he was shot, but he was 19 and very large and threatening and those circumstances, was killed. 2682

[Ike Witt]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky

Reaction to Madison Police Officer Matt Kenny being cleared in shooting of Tony Robinson

Officer Kenny cleared

The stories in both links are fully redacted. 2683

[eschereal]

Your browser is broken, they work for me. 2684

[elucidator]

That strange, I click and it goes straight to a site with Scarlett Johansonn in porn movies she made when she was nineteen...... 2685

[elucidator]

OK, sites totally crashed now.... 2686

[monstro]

Officer off the hook for killing unarmed kid with Down Syndrome after saying he feared for his life. Video tells a different story. 2687

[Lumpy]

I'm reminded of a comedy skit we did in high school acting class. A parody of "Dragnet" entitled "Drag-It", Detective Thursday would shoot people dead without provocation, wait three or four beats and then say "Stop or I'll shoot!" 2688

[BigAppleBucky]

US Border Patrol agents behaving badly

Guess they forgot to destroy the video. 2689

[eschereal]

Police behaving badly: two Baltimore officers suspended for being caught on video taking part in the looting during the riots over police mistreatment of Freddie Gray. 2690

[Steophan]

Originally Posted by eschereal

Police behaving badly: two Baltimore officers suspended for being caught on video taking part in the looting during the riots over police mistreatment of Freddie Gray.

Looting? I thought it was legitimate protest by a mistreated community? 2691

[eschereal]

Originally Posted by Steophan

Looting? I thought it was legitimate protest by a mistreated community?

It was, until the police showed up and turned it into a riot. 2692

[elucidator]

Been whooshed, esch. That there was some droll irony, Steophan-style. 2693

[septimus]

Ouch! I just noticed this post. How do these shameful incidents keep happening and happening?

Originally Posted by monstro

You may remember the black homeowner who called 911, only to be shot by one of the officers responding to the scene. You may recall that according to the sheriff's office, the officers had given the guy clear instructions to put down his weapon. But because that silly negro refused to comply with this simple request, after much deliberation it was decided he had to be taken out. That was the story they told us.

Now we get the truth:

Dashcam recording indicates that deputy fired on homeowner almost instantly.

Why aren't these recordings ever released to the public right away? Why does the police always get a chance to tell their side of the story before we get to see what really happened? Because they were able to paint Heyward as a gun-wielding fool on a suicide mission, there are people who can listen to that audio and shrug it off as another incident where "both sides were wrong". We live in a society where a black man can be clearly victimized by both fellow citizens (criminals) and his government (police officers), and the average internet commenter will still lay the blame on him.

Heyward is now paralyzed from the waist down and unable to speak. Too bad for him that in the ambulance he supposedly blamed himself for the whole thing. The racist yahoos on the internet won't let that go.

But we know most of you guys are bigoted against white cops. Have the Board's impartial observers, Smaphan and Steopti, commented on this incident? 2694

[kayaker]

Originally Posted by septimus

Have the Board's impartial observers, Smaphan and Steopti, commented on this incident?

I predict Smapti will observe, " Hey, bears are unpredictable. And being able to walk is a privelige, not a right. God bless America." 2695

[MrDibble]

Originally Posted by Lumpy

I'm reminded of a comedy skit we did in high school acting class. A parody of "Dragnet" entitled "Drag-It", Detective Thursday would shoot people dead without provocation, wait three or four beats and then say "Stop or I'll shoot!"

A friend's kid had a toy gun that played sounds when you pulled the trigger - it made the sound of several shots, then a voice saying "Hands Up!" - in that order. I think that some toymaker is a keen observer of American police procedure... 2696

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by monstro

Heyward is now paralyzed from the waist down and unable to speak. Too bad for him that in the ambulance he supposedly blamed himself for the whole thing. The racist yahoos on the internet won't let that go.

So he's been rendered unable to speak by the shooting, on account of having been shot in the neck, but still managed to verbally excuse the cops after the shooting. Says police investigator. Yeah, OK, I buy that. Now, there's the matter of the bridge I've bought from you last month, it hasn't been delivered yet and... 2697

[Smapti]

Originally Posted by septimus

Have the Board's impartial observers, Smaphan and Steopti, commented on this incident?

Originally Posted by kayaker

I predict Smapti will observe, " Hey, bears are unpredictable. And being able to walk is a privelige, not a right. God bless America."

Since all we have is audio, it's impossible to tell how Heyward reacted to the command to show his hands, but from what we have here, it sounds like the cop panicked and fired too soon, assuming the homeowner to be the burglar.

If he sues, then I would expect him to succeed. 2698

[Terr]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/15...se-memory.html

Moments later, Mr. O’Grady spoke to a reporter for The New York Times and said the wounded man was in flight when he was shot. “He looked like he was trying to get away from the officers,” Mr. O’Grady said.

Another person on Eighth Avenue then, Sunny Khalsa, 41, had been riding her bicycle when she saw police officers and the man. Shaken by the encounter, she contacted the Times newsroom with a shocking detail.

“I saw a man who was handcuffed being shot,” Ms. Khalsa said. “And I am sorry, maybe I am crazy, but that is what I saw.”

At 3 p.m. on Wednesday, the Police Department released a surveillance videotape that showed that both Mr. O’Grady and Ms. Khalsa were wrong.

So much for eyewitnesses... 2699

[BigAppleBucky]

Originally Posted by Terr

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/15...se-memory.html

At 3 p.m. on Wednesday, the Police Department released a surveillance videotape that showed that both Mr. O’Grady and Ms. Khalsa were wrong.

So much for eyewitnesses...

Sad, but true. I'll remember that if ever I'm on a jury.

Also sad that the cop fired three times and only scored two hits on a crowded NYC street corner. Could have hit an innocent. 2700