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  #101  
Old 08-25-2019, 04:39 PM
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DSeid, where is "quitting" in this discussion. I don't think nicotine addicts should be forced to quit. The drug itself isn't the thing that kills people. Your "medical conspiracy" is you have been programmed by your peers to think a certain way that includes"quitting = the goal" and are missing a few key steps.

Such as: human beings find it very, very, very difficult to quit any addictive substance. Until the pharm chemists find a way to reverse the brain changes associated with addiction (or do it with an implant), there are other ways to address addiction. Such as by supplying the necessary substance in a safe way.
  #102  
Old 08-25-2019, 04:56 PM
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I'd in fact posit that the flavoring makes it harder to finish the job of then weaning off the e-cigs as well. Which is as valid of a claim to make.
Why does weaning off the e-cigs need to be a goal?

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Seriously no it makes no sense that tutti-fruity flavoring that has not been part of the cigarette smoking experience is required even if it adds pleasure to the addiction behavior.
"Is required"? Nothing in life is required. Pleasure is not required. You can eat a can of unflavored nutrient paste every day, wear a pair of gray coveralls every day, stare at a blank gray wall in your spare time, whatever man.
  #103  
Old 08-25-2019, 05:30 PM
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True that e-cigs can be an addition to smoking cigarettes and not a substitute for. Individual adults should know what their goals are and judge by how well something helps them meet their own desired outcome.

If the sole goal for an adult smoker is health harm reduction then substantial harm reduction can be achieved even if all that occurs is a reduction in total number of regular cigarettes smoked per day. Even more if the e-cigs are then weaned down but no quibble that major harms reduced.

If the smoker also is frustrated by the expense of cigarettes then continuing e-cigs ad infinitum is not such a great bargain ... slightly less costly but still on average over $2K/year up in ... vapor.

Their goal to set.

The article merely documents that the current studies in aggregate do not support that e-cigs help achieve the goal of quitting smoking, and seem to actually decrease that outcome. True, it says nothing about the pleasure of the addiction and increasing or decreasing that pleasure.

Again individual adults can make their own decisions. AND policy can be made to discourage having greater numbers of addicts in our population and decrease the fraction of a next generation that becomes addicted, especially by way of being marketed to in childhood with a highly addictive substance administered in a highly addictive form factor.

Back to my horse - he wanted another THC vape inhalation but in the process keeled over as I helped him with it (no hands) ... probably due to some flavor additive. Was that hitting a dead horse?
  #104  
Old 08-25-2019, 05:37 PM
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I personally don't care if people vape or not, though I do think it's probably safer than regular cigarettes. In fact, my family doctor at one time said he's rather have me vape then smoke cigarettes.

But then I had a stroke in January, and that took care of that.

Had to quit smoking (I also give up drinking as I thought it would be a trigger). And all the doctors at the hospital told me, "No vaping." I could do the gum or patch, they said, but no cigarettes, e-cigs, or vaping.

So I quit cold turkey.
  #105  
Old 08-25-2019, 05:48 PM
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.....

A complete view of the evidence is that the efficacy of e-cigs as a class in increasing cigarette quit rates is .. not so strong. A 2016 Lancet meta-analysis -

Yeah, LESS successful quitting using e-cigs than not.

Eh. Another medical conspiracy to hide the facts. So let's ignore this quality meta-analysis and for discussion's sake assume that the combination of removing the need to smoke to feed the addiction, and the continuation of the perceived social functions of smoking (in-group, having a prop, etc), help facilitate cessation of smoking cigarettes. ....
Sure, no doubt. But medical experts also know that quiting smoking is quite hard and many smokers have to try various methods. I personally know a half dozen smokers who now only vape.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...s/art-20204330

Will e-cigarettes help me quit smoking?
E-cigarettes aren't an FDA-approved quit aid.

Studies to test whether e-cigarettes can help people stop using tobacco have had inconsistent results. Limited research suggests that using only e-cigarettes containing nicotine to quit smoking can be effective short term compared with using medicinal nicotine replacements. But there isn't enough evidence comparing the safety and effectiveness of using e-cigarettes to quit smoking and established evidence-based treatments. E-cigarettes might be appropriate only in those unwilling to try evidence-based smoking cessation therapies or haven't had success with such therapies.

Last edited by DrDeth; 08-25-2019 at 05:49 PM.
  #106  
Old 08-25-2019, 05:52 PM
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https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-2019022716086
What about vaping to help you quit smoking?
Advocates of vaping have promoted it as a way to help cigarette smokers to quit. Although giving up nicotine products altogether might be the ultimate goal, there may be health benefits to a smoker who becomes a long-term vaper instead, though this remains unproven.

A new study compares vaping with other common nicotine replacement approaches as a way to help smokers quit. The findings support the idea that vaping may help some smokers.

Researchers recruited nearly 900 people who wanted to quit smoking, and randomly assigned half to receive e-cigarettes and the other half to receive other nicotine replacement products (such as nicotine patches and gum). All of the study participants received weekly individual counseling for four weeks. After one year, smoking cessation was confirmed by measures of exhaled carbon monoxide (which should be low if you’ve quit but high if you’re still smoking).

Here’s what they found:

Among those assigned to vaping, 18% had stopped smoking, while about 10% of those using nicotine replacement therapy had quit.
Among successful quitters, 80% of those in the e-cigarette group were still vaping; only 9% of those in the nicotine-replacement group were still using those products.
Reports of cough and phlegm production dropped more in the e-cigarette group.
So, while e-cigarette use was associated with nearly twice the rate of smoking cessation, more than 80% of smokers entering this study continued to smoke a year later. One other caveat to note: the e-cigarettes used in this study contained much lower levels of nicotine than found in some common brands used in the US (such as Juul). The importance of this difference is unclear, but a higher nicotine level could contribute a higher rate of addiction to the e-cigarette.


Note "So, while e-cigarette use was associated with nearly twice the rate of smoking cessation,..."


https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.105...8779?query=TOC
  #107  
Old 08-25-2019, 06:09 PM
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True that e-cigs can be an addition to smoking cigarettes and not a substitute for. Individual adults should know what their goals are and judge by how well something helps them meet their own desired outcome.

If the sole goal for an adult smoker is health harm reduction then substantial harm reduction can be achieved even if all that occurs is a reduction in total number of regular cigarettes smoked per day. Even more if the e-cigs are then weaned down but no quibble that major harms reduced.

If the smoker also is frustrated by the expense of cigarettes then continuing e-cigs ad infinitum is not such a great bargain ... slightly less costly but still on average over $2K/year up in ... vapor.
Do you have any idea how expensive smoking is? In my neck of the woods, it's about $13-14 per pack. So a pack a day smoker spends over $4600/yr. I was a pack a day, now I spend about $20/week on vape juice, so a little over a $1000 a year.
  #108  
Old 08-25-2019, 06:51 PM
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Do you have any idea how expensive smoking is? In my neck of the woods, it's about $13-14 per pack. So a pack a day smoker spends over $4600/yr. I was a pack a day, now I spend about $20/week on vape juice, so a little over a $1000 a year.
Source.
  #109  
Old 08-25-2019, 07:01 PM
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DrDeth individual studies do vary ... which is why you go with the large well-designed meta-analysis. You follow politics some ... think of it as quoting a single poll vs going with 538's aggregation.

But yes, quitting cigarette smoking (for those who set that as a goal) is hard and the vast majority who try fail, including those who vape as a means of getting off cigarettes. But OTOH more succeed at keeping off cigarettes long term than do at losing major amounts of weight and keeping it off long term and it is of more urgent health impact.
  #110  
Old 08-25-2019, 07:29 PM
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First, you cite points out that using a Juul will save you money over cigarettes

And it doesn't take into account that most of us here are not using Juuls, but rather, vape kits where we refill our own reservoirs at a fraction of the cost of a "Nicotine pod".

I couldn't tell you how much I spend. Maybe 30-40 a month, maybe.

I probably spend as much on replacing batteries that get broken by keeping them in my pocket as I do on juice.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 08-25-2019 at 07:34 PM.
  #111  
Old 08-25-2019, 07:33 PM
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DrDeth individual studies do vary ... which is why you go with the large well-designed meta-analysis. You follow politics some ... think of it as quoting a single poll vs going with 538's aggregation.

But yes, quitting cigarette smoking (for those who set that as a goal) is hard and the vast majority who try fail, including those who vape as a means of getting off cigarettes. But OTOH more succeed at keeping off cigarettes long term than do at losing major amounts of weight and keeping it off long term and it is of more urgent health impact.
I can go up a flight of stairs without getting winded. That's a pretty big quality of life change that vaping has given me.

It has also made me more active. I can take my dogs out for a walk without being beat when I get home. Every time I've tried to quit smoking in the past, I've gained a considerable amount of weight. Since I switched to vapes, I've lost weight and am overall far healthier, even though I am a bit older.
  #112  
Old 08-25-2019, 07:44 PM
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Juul is a specific product that trades ease of use for higher price. I personally use one $3 replacement coil per week and about $15 for 30ml of vape liquid. I'm sure some use more or less than that but that's what I'm at as a former pack a day smoker.
  #113  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:07 PM
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Corrections to the amount of money potentially saved over smoking for those who don't go for the ease of use name brand that enjoys a 76% market share noted and accepted.

And if you are indeed someone who is in a group that succeeded to quit smoking with vaping while failing with other nicotine replacement products more power to you. If you have no desire to wean off of nicotine completely and are content in having had your harms reduced and the costs are, after having budgeted in for cigarettes in the past, no big deal to you, then I have no quibbles with your decision. Your life your goals. k9bfriender those are indeed big deal things.

I do remain with issues regarding practices that result in more becoming addicts, some of whom will suffer harms from that addiction, especially regarding practices that are getting many addicted in childhood.

Sorry you not having as easy of access to the added pleasure of strawberry milk or mango or watermelon vape flavorings is in comparison a cry me a river item.
  #114  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:23 PM
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Nm

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  #115  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:36 PM
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I'd like a cite for a 76% market share. I'm rather certain that's close to their share of the easy-to-use market but not the whole vape market.
  #116  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:39 PM
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Source.
  #117  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:43 PM
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Can't wait for you to stamp out sweet alcohol drinks. I'm sure the campaign to stop childhood obesity by making all soda drinks Basil flavor will also come out soon.
  #118  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:46 PM
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The market share is based primarily on Nielsen convenience store data for the four-week period that ended Dec. 29. Juul’s market share dipped from 76.1 percent in the previous report.
You notice that the article doesn't even mention the traditional market? It only talks about easy-to-use products. All these busy vape stores tell me that convenience stores don't have a hundred percent of the market

Last edited by CarnalK; 08-25-2019 at 08:47 PM.
  #119  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:43 PM
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Can't wait for you to stamp out sweet alcohol drinks. I'm sure the campaign to stop childhood obesity by making all soda drinks Basil flavor will also come out soon.
I've been pretty clear in many past threads in my position that the marketing of high added sugar beverages in particular and foods too is an issue and that better regulation of such is a part of the needed approach to impact childhood obesity rates. Some steps have been taken.

Your hyperbole is cute but the basic idea that controlling the access and exposure of children to things that will have significant long term adverse health impacts, in reasonable ways, is the rational position.

That said highly sweetened beverages are not as addictive as nicotine.

Last edited by DSeid; 08-25-2019 at 09:44 PM.
  #120  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:45 PM
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I spent $2200 from 2010 to 2019 on ecigs. When I quit smoking I smoked a pack a week of $7.00 cigarettes. That's $3276.
  #121  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:44 PM
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I do remain with issues regarding practices that result in more becoming addicts, some of whom will suffer harms from that addiction, especially regarding practices that are getting many addicted in childhood.

Sorry you not having as easy of access to the added pleasure of strawberry milk or mango or watermelon vape flavorings is in comparison a cry me a river item.
Let me get this straight. You need to be 18-21 to smoke, and 18-21 to vape. Those children are getting their fruit flavors illegally.

So now you are saying that a product intended for adults, that you admit probably makes adults healthier than the alternative, that is illegal for children to buy...cannot be made a certain way because kids might get their hands on it.

Cool. So we're banning all the candy in the world as well, right? And guns, oh boy. You realize that nearly every firearm ever sold has no smart mechanism to ensure a licensed adult is holding the weapon, and also no difficult to actuate for a kid's hands lock to remove the safety or open the jar of ammunition.

Making a kid-safe world is possible, but the way to do it isn't to restrict commercially available products on the market that have accepted levels of risk when used as intended. (aka, guns and vapes. Vapes have an acceptable level of risk as they are much safer than cigarettes)

A more practical method would be better monitoring, so that when Timmy gets an adult to buy him a vape, someone gets informed and actions can be taken. This would make all of the dangerous products that can possibly harm children get reduced instead of just some.
  #122  
Old 08-26-2019, 12:28 AM
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I've been pretty clear in many past threads in my position that the marketing of high added sugar beverages in particular and foods too is an issue and that better regulation of such is a part of the needed approach to impact childhood obesity rates. Some steps have been taken.

Your hyperbole is cute but the basic idea that controlling the access and exposure of children to things that will have significant long term adverse health impacts, in reasonable ways, is the rational position.
I guess you missed that my hyperbole has nothing to do with controlling the access and exposure of children to anything. I'm against a vape flavour ban.
  #123  
Old 08-26-2019, 01:18 AM
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Shouldn't we ban chewing tobacco? Adults might purchase chewing tobacco for a child under the age of 18 and supply the tobacco to them.

Shouldn't we require all cars to have biometric ignitions? Otherwise, children might obtain the keys their caretakers left unsecured, obtain access to the vehicle, and cause a car accident.

Shouldn't we ban all guns? Caretakers might leave firearms unsecured in a residential home, and a kid might obtain access to the weapon and deliberately or accidentally fire it, causing injury.

Shouldn't we also ban all pornography from the internet? Caretakers might leave their kids alone with a device that can access the internet, and a kid might enter the address of a site containing pornography and see it.

And knives. And sharp corners. And electric outlets without safety covers and GFCIs.

Everywhere. Think of the children. They must be safe.
  #124  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:22 AM
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Much of the angst displayed in this thread boils down to something we've seen on this board before - (ex) smokers feeling such a strong sense of entitlement that they will countenance no restrictions on their new habit, vaping. It seems to be a natural outgrowth of smokers' entitlement that led to battles over restricting smoking in public places, package warnings etc.

The insistence that nothing should be allowed to interfere with their new vaping habit (even at the cost of a new generation of nicotine addicts) is not going to fly either. It's a shame though that so much energy has to be expended on an avoidable conflict.
  #125  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:48 AM
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And why shouldn't I feel entitled? It's not society's job to make all adult choices unpalatable to children. Alcohol actually kills thousands of kids a year and sends hundreds of thousands to the hospital. What will a vaping addiction do? Maybe some health problems in the coming decades. Sorry if I don't think we need to jump to full nanny state over that. I'm fine with severely restricting advertising and in store displays. I'm fine with crippling fines to people who provide it to underage people. I'm fine with strong testing and labeling rules. I'll even choke down some sin taxes. But sorry, yes, I feel entitled to my choice of adult indulgence.

Last edited by CarnalK; 08-26-2019 at 08:50 AM.
  #126  
Old 08-26-2019, 09:34 AM
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Yup you do.

Meanwhile FWIW I'd actually be fine allowing flavored vapes ... under significant controls strictly enforced.

I'd add to your list not allowed in the single use form factor that most kids use and prefer and that has been associated with the youth vaping explosion.
  #127  
Old 08-26-2019, 09:53 AM
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The easy to use factor is only half of the equation that fueled the explosion. It's also that the form that allowed them to be effectively sold out of convenience stores. Once that happened, kids are always going to find a less than conscientious store.

Last edited by CarnalK; 08-26-2019 at 09:53 AM.
  #128  
Old 08-26-2019, 11:57 AM
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Then how would you feel about restricting sales of flavored products to vaping stores only (which like liquor stores have more to lose by breaking the law) and not allowing that form factor to come flavored? (In addition to the items you have already listed as being fine with.)


Yes, SamualA, in fact we must think of the children. Very seriously we must. Child safety caps for example may be an inconvenience to adults but it was decided that adults are not entitled to having a default of them not being there. And I'd argue with a gun owner who feels entitled to leave a loaded weapon in his nightstand with kids in the house that he should not be entitled to do so. I have argued with nurses who work with sick children that they are not entitled to not get various vaccines including the flu shot. There are, or at least should be, limits to adult entitlements.
  #129  
Old 08-26-2019, 02:58 PM
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And there werent many substitutes for alcohol. Now we have snus, chaw, snuff, patches, vaping and gum. That 14% have many things they can turn to. We can ban smoking.
Not yet. I'd push vaping hard as an alternative to smoking until that 14% drops to something like 5% maybe even lower. That's about the point where cigarettes would stop being a valued retail product, and the manufacturers would be hard pressed to fight the ban.

At which point, we can turn our attention to the scourge of vaping.
  #130  
Old 08-27-2019, 11:30 AM
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Then how would you feel about restricting sales of flavored products to vaping stores only (which like liquor stores have more to lose by breaking the law) and not allowing that form factor to come flavored? (In addition to the items you have already listed as being fine with.)


Yes, SamualA, in fact we must think of the children. Very seriously we must. Child safety caps for example may be an inconvenience to adults but it was decided that adults are not entitled to having a default of them not being there. And I'd argue with a gun owner who feels entitled to leave a loaded weapon in his nightstand with kids in the house that he should not be entitled to do so. I have argued with nurses who work with sick children that they are not entitled to not get various vaccines including the flu shot. There are, or at least should be, limits to adult entitlements.
Hell, you want to restrict convince stores from selling tobacco products entirely, that's fine with me. I like the guys at the tobacco/vape shop, and they wouldn't mind the business.

But yeah, kids are going to get drugs if they want drugs. I stole cigarettes from my parents, I got older friends to buy them for me, I "knew" the shops in my town that didn't card.

Kids are not taking up vaping because of cherry cheesecake flavor. They are taking up vaping because they want to alter their mental state with drugs. Whether self medication is a wise idea or not, that is the reason. They are not happy with how their mind feels, and they want to change that. People used to take up smoking all the time, and there were no "child" flavors then.

So, while I have no problem whatsoever with doing what we can to prevent the sale of nicotine products to kids, we might want to start looking into what causes these kids to desire to self medicate, rather than futility try to prevent kids from getting hold of the medication that they desire, as that is close to futile.
  #131  
Old 08-27-2019, 01:04 PM
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Where are you (vape advocates) on this (admittedly developing) story:

CDC: 153 cases of severe lung disease in 16 states possibly linked to vaping
  #132  
Old 08-27-2019, 01:43 PM
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Where are you (vape advocates) on this (admittedly developing) story:

CDC: 153 cases of severe lung disease in 16 states possibly linked to vaping
As it says in the article, we don't know what the cause is, so it's hard to form an opinion based on that.

Personally, I think it will come out that there was some bad juice that got shipped out, whether it be a flavor or a base, and I would be more than happy with regulations that ensure that what people buy to put into their vapes is unadulterated.

Hopefully, it will be tracked down, and whatever supplier is shipping contaminated materials will be stopped from doing so in the future.

When some worker in a field doesn't wash his hands between crapping and picking lettuce, or a part in a slaughterhouse or butchery shop isn't cleaner, then we get people dying and made sick from e coli. When some cook on a cruise line doesn't wash his hands, everyone gets listeriosis. I don't see this as being any different, other than Vaping is more controversial than going on cruises or eating kale.

Last edited by k9bfriender; 08-27-2019 at 01:44 PM.
  #133  
Old 08-27-2019, 01:48 PM
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Where are you (vape advocates) on this (admittedly developing) story:

CDC: 153 cases of severe lung disease in 16 states possibly linked to vaping
CDC- smoking kills 500,000 Americans a year, 50000 of them thru second hand smoke.

and you want us to get het up about 153 sick people instead of a half million dead?
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  #134  
Old 08-27-2019, 01:57 PM
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CDC- smoking kills 500,000 Americans a year, 50000 of them thru second hand smoke.

and you want us to get het up about 153 sick people instead of a half million dead?
I don't think anyone is saying that we have to ignore the problem with smoking and take up the problem with vaping instead.
  #135  
Old 08-27-2019, 02:07 PM
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I don't think anyone is saying that we have to ignore the problem with smoking and take up the problem with vaping instead.
It looked to me that's exactly what Sailboat was implying.

Oh, and for the record, I dont vape. Or smoke,
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  #136  
Old 08-27-2019, 02:50 PM
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Kids are not taking up vaping because of cherry cheesecake flavor. They are taking up vaping because they want to alter their mental state with drugs. Whether self medication is a wise idea or not, that is the reason. They are not happy with how their mind feels, and they want to change that. People used to take up smoking all the time, and there were no "child" flavors then.
This isn't why kids start taking up vaping or smoking. Nobody makes a conscious decision to "alter their mental state with drugs" when the drug in question is nicotine. It starts with someone in the group hanging out, having a cigarette, or a vape - then the other kids want to try it, so he lets them try it. Then some of them get vapes or cigarettes on their own. Then it becomes a social thing, usually done furtively because it's not allowed and that makes it more exciting. Many of these kids don't continue doing it habitually once the novelty value wears off. But some of them do, and those are the nicotine addicts.
  #137  
Old 08-27-2019, 03:04 PM
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CDC- smoking kills 500,000 Americans a year, 50000 of them thru second hand smoke.

and you want us to get het up about 153 sick people instead of a half million dead?
It's quite possible to be concerned about both.

You might have a point if 1) there were no other pathways for quitting smoking, 2) everyone who vapes does so to quit smoking, and 3) the recently identified 153 cases were the total number of people to be harmed by vaping both now and in coming years.

Your argument makes about as much sense as saying we should ignore mass shootings, since vastly greater numbers of people die from smoking-related causes.
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Old 08-27-2019, 03:33 PM
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This isn't why kids start taking up vaping or smoking. Nobody makes a conscious decision to "alter their mental state with drugs" when the drug in question is nicotine. It starts with someone in the group hanging out, having a cigarette, or a vape - then the other kids want to try it, so he lets them try it. Then some of them get vapes or cigarettes on their own. Then it becomes a social thing, usually done furtively because it's not allowed and that makes it more exciting. Many of these kids don't continue doing it habitually once the novelty value wears off. But some of them do, and those are the nicotine addicts.
Right, people usually say things like "Let's get fucked up", not "Let's use drugs to alter our mental state." But yes, that is a conscious decision.

I'm not sure what your argument is here. Are you saying that people don't use drugs because it makes them feel good?

People, especially kids, are curious, and sure, if someone has something they haven't tried before, they will be interested in trying it. If they find that they like it, then they will continue doing it. I do no entirely discount peer pressure, but I also think that it is more than a bit overestimated.

But, none of that has anything to do with my post. What I am responding to here, what I am arguing against, is that kids take up vaping because of the the flavors. This is not something that you have argued for in your post, so I assume you agree that, as I said in the post you quoted and responded to, "Kids are not taking up vaping because of cherry cheesecake flavor."

Last edited by k9bfriender; 08-27-2019 at 03:33 PM.
  #139  
Old 08-27-2019, 05:40 PM
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I'm curious, for those that are addicted to nicotine, and have children, did you try and discourage your children from taking up nicotine?

As the leading cause of people starting to smoke, is that their parents smoke. Peer pressure is next.
  #140  
Old 08-27-2019, 08:21 PM
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k9bfriender obviously we get into IMHO and anecdotes here but my belief is that your position is a very ignorant one.

Did you really take your first drink/toke/smoke/whatever to get fucked up? Nah. It was a social thing which then hooks some because of both the some perceived positive of the experience (inclusive of the buzz, but not necessarily only that, flavor etc can be part of that as well, and the ongoing social reinforcement of being part of a group, having a group activity/shared interest, having a prop, and so on), and for some after some time because of a dependency that morphs into an addiction, in which the positive is no longer the drive but the avoidance of the negative of withdrawal.

To say that flavors that appeal are not part of that is as unto saying that taste of food doesn't impact overeating because people eat out of hunger, or that there would be as much alcohol consumption if the only form of it was Malort.

Hell drinking is the same way. How many drink, as kids or as adults, primarily to get fucked up/alter their mental state? Not most. Many many more drink with the main focus being the social activity and the impact on mental state in service of that social activity, as a lubricant of sorts. Getting shit-faced is not the goal for most even if a slight buzz is enjoyed by many as part of the process.

Kids are not choosing to the most powerful fuck-you-up substances and getting them no matter what. Not too many High Schoolers are dropping acid right now. By your way of thinking, why not?

There has been a nearly two decade decline in teen alcohol use rates, including over the same last five year time period that teen vaping has exploded. How does that mesh with your thinking that they'll try whatever something someone has that they haven't tried before?

Last edited by DSeid; 08-27-2019 at 08:21 PM.
  #141  
Old 08-28-2019, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
k9bfriender obviously we get into IMHO and anecdotes here but my belief is that your position is a very ignorant one.

Did you really take your first drink/toke/smoke/whatever to get fucked up? Nah. It was a social thing
"see what it feels like" is a pretty adjacent concept to a kid trying drugs for the first time. I think "what is it ike to be drunk" isn't that uncommon a thought for a kid trying drinking for the first time.

And when you first start smoking, you do get a rush off it. It doesn't become a meaningless placeholder addiction until later.
  #142  
Old 08-29-2019, 07:23 PM
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City of Milwaukee urges everyone who lives there to stop vaping immediately

Quote:
The city of Milwaukee issued a stern warning to residents: Stop vaping immediately.
The advisory came after 16 people were hospitalized with chemical pneumonia, a severe illness that causes lung inflammation, the Milwaukee health department said.
All of them reported vaping or "dabbing" -- inhaling potent marijuana products -- before they were hospitalized, the department said.
The link between vaping and respiratory illness isn't fully understood, officials said, but in the meantime, they're advising residents to stop using vapes, e-cigarettes and liquid THC products.
North Carolina sues 8 e-cigarette companies, alleging marketing to children

Quote:
North Carolina Attorney General Josh Stein filed eight lawsuits against eight separate e-cigarette companies on Tuesday, alleging that the companies are "unlawfully targeting children" and not requiring appropriate age verification when selling products.
The companies included in the complaints are Beard Vape, Direct eLiquid, Electric Lotus, Electric Tobacconist, Eonsmoke, Juice Man, Tinted Brew and VapeCo, Stein said during a media conference call with reporters on Tuesday.
"There is a vaping epidemic among high schoolers and middle schoolers in North Carolina and the United States," he said. "I, as attorney general of North Carolina, refuse to stand by as e-cigarette companies entice thousands of children to use their products."
  #143  
Old 08-29-2019, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikecurtis View Post
Quote:
The advisory came after 16 people were hospitalized with chemical pneumonia, a severe illness that causes lung inflammation, the Milwaukee health department said.
All of them reported vaping or "dabbing" -- inhaling potent marijuana products -- before they were hospitalized, the department said.
The link between vaping and respiratory illness isn't fully understood, officials said, but in the meantime, they're advising residents to stop using vapes, e-cigarettes and liquid THC products.
Sounds to me like somebody may not have understood the difference between vegetable oil and vegetable glycerin. Try to vape Wesson, and you're likely to wind up with lipid pneumonia.
  #144  
Old 08-29-2019, 07:33 PM
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Idk if this has been posted yet but it seems relevant to this discussion.

8"]https://amp.businessinsider.com/juul-ceo-dont-vape-long-term-effects-unknown-2019-8[/URL]

The CEO of JUUL has issued a warning: "Don't vape"

Last edited by Ambivalid; 08-29-2019 at 07:34 PM.
  #145  
Old 08-29-2019, 07:35 PM
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I may have smoked my first cigarette so that some boy would think I was cool. But I smoked the second one--and all the ones after that because I liked life more when I had a little nicotine in my blood. I liked ME better. Certainly the desire to "look cool" is part of the motivation to consume drugs. But they also feel good. People, including children, like feeling good.
  #146  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
The CEO of JUUL has issued a warning: "Don't vape"
Quote:
Originally Posted by linked story
Juul is partially owned by Altria, the tobacco giant behind Marlboro.
Juul and Altria's bottom line suffers if only smokers use their products. Such pious warnings obscure the delight executives must feel at knowing a new generation of nicotine addicts is emerging.
  #147  
Old 08-30-2019, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
It looked to me that's exactly what Sailboat was implying.

Oh, and for the record, I dont vape. Or smoke,
Nope. I'm implying that vaping should not be regarded as a free magic bullet. In fact, it should be stopped.

I am against all smoking because it (the addictive, carcinogenic nicotine) gets in my lungs as well. Nicotine addicts can use a patch that won't affect passers-by.
  #148  
Old 08-30-2019, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
carcinogenic nicotine
Got a cite for that?
  #149  
Old 08-31-2019, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Got a cite for that?
"Several lines of evidence indicate that nicotine may contribute to the development of cancer. Evidence from experimental in vitro studies on cell cultures, in vivo studies on rodents as well as studies on humans inclusive of epidemiological studies indicate that nicotine itself, independent of other tobacco constituents, may stimulate a number of effects of importance in cancer development."

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/
http://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2014/0...-nicotine.html

Last edited by Jackmannii; 08-31-2019 at 10:36 AM.
  #150  
Old 08-31-2019, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
"Several lines of evidence indicate that nicotine may contribute to the development of cancer. Evidence from experimental in vitro studies on cell cultures, in vivo studies on rodents as well as studies on humans inclusive of epidemiological studies indicate that nicotine itself, independent of other tobacco constituents, may stimulate a number of effects of importance in cancer development."

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/
http://vtnews.vt.edu/articles/2014/0...-nicotine.html
Thanks!
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