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  #2151  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:15 PM
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Hypothetically speaking, what action justifies severing a man's spine while handcuffed and in leg irons?
Nothing, if they were acting with the specific intention to break his spine, an allegation which is not supported by any evidence - but when your response to seeing some police near you is to immediately break and run away, and to fight and struggle tooth and nail when they deem that suspicious and decide to apprehend you, well, you're pretty much taking complete responsibility for whatever happens to your person as a result of that choice.
  #2152  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:17 PM
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The American army killed more Japanese citizens in one minute than the Brits did in the entire history of the world. A few days later, they did it again.

Last edited by FXMastermind; 04-29-2015 at 04:17 PM.
  #2153  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:18 PM
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... you're pretty much taking complete responsibility for whatever happens to your person as a result of that choice.
And that is exactly what a Police State is like folks. Not just the cops, but the people who support them, no matter what,
  #2154  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:23 PM
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Hypothetically speaking, what action justifies severing a man's spine while handcuffed and in leg irons?
You're assuming it was intentional, which is completely unwarranted based on what we actually know. What evidence we do have suggests it was negligent, not intentional, due to not buckling him in the van, so justification is irrelevant.

You also have no reason to think his race had anything to do with it. So, I'm not going to answer your hypothetical, as it has nothing (at the moment) to do with the discussion of racism we were having.
  #2155  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:24 PM
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Blacks in the British Empire became emancipated without violence. India gained its independence without violence. Gays in this country have, by and large, gained equality without violence. Violence is not inherently necessary to bring about social change, and more often than not it is counterproductive.
I didn't say "without violence", I said "without deliberate disorder".

Oh, and btw the independence of India was not achieved without violence. It all began with the Sepoy mutiny, then the violent rebellion of 1857, remember ? While Ghandi might have wished to keep things peaceful, his civil disobedience movement still resulted in violence once the cops/army responded by shooting at them (e.g. Calcutta in 1930). And of course, beyond Ghandi's movement there were plenty of other, violent revolutionary groups acting for India's independence.
  #2156  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:25 PM
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What there isn't is significant evidence that blacks are mistreated because of their skin colour. This isn't 1965. If a violent, threatening black man is shot by the police (or anyone else), the focus should not be on his skin colour but on the violent, threatening actions taken.
You keep saying this, but then there are lots of examples of black men shot by the police for reaching for ID, fleeing, having the bad luck to be arrested by a group containing a complete idiot, or killed/beaten for other reasons that do not warrant such a violent response.

I am unconvinced that the problems of 1965 don't still exist to some lesser extent today.

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For whatever reason, young black men are many times more violent than any other group, as I stated before, including older black men or black women (both groups that are less violent than young white men).
And yet most young black men are not violent, and do not deserve any differing treatment by police. If a cop treats a non-violent young black man worse than he would some other individual, that's a problem. It's not only very unfair, it perpetuates the cycle. If black men are continually mistreated for being black men, many future black men will continue to (reasonably and rationally) see police as the enemy.

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Why is it so unexpected that they would receive far more attention from the police? Don't want to be "harassed" by the police? Stop committing so many crimes, especially in public, for fuck's sake.
Most young black men do not commit crimes, and therefore it's unfair and wrong to insist that non-violent young black men should "stop committing so many crimes". Most of them don't -- by lumping them all together, you are making the problem worse.

Before you say the same about lumping cops together, it's different for multiple reasons -- the onus is on Police Departments; many (and possibly even most) of which have a cultural problem with protecting bad cops against accusations of mistreatment, and many (like Ferguson) have a problem with targeting black people for fines and minor crimes that do not serve public safety, but rather the finances of the locality; to repair the reasonable and rational impression of many black people that the police are their enemy.

100 years ago it was reasonable to trust black people if they said they were mistreated by cops, government, businesses, or society in general -- why is it so unreasonable to trust black people (in general) now if they express that they were mistreated?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 04-29-2015 at 04:28 PM.
  #2157  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:27 PM
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FWIW, some cops treat everybody badly. It's just they seem to kill a lot more young black men, and old black men, and black people in general. But they also treat white people like shit.
  #2158  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:27 PM
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And that is exactly what a Police State is like folks. Not just the cops, but the people who support them, no matter what,
Better a police state than anarchy. Better still what you actually have in America, a democracy where any event like this will be thoroughly investigated, despite the attempts of "protesters" to prevent that.

You're in a democracy, with a legal system. Don't fight the cops on the street even if they're wrong. Fight them in court, and if you actually are in the right, enjoy your wealthy retirement.

It does make me wonder why organisation like the ACLU aren't in Ferguson or Baltimore funding and representing all these people who've been "mistreated" by the cops, if it was as prevalent as claimed they'd be recouping their costs hundredfold.

Or, just maybe, they realise that in the vast majority of cases there was no actual police wrongdoing.
  #2159  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:30 PM
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Long before "the vast number of cases are wrongdoing", there will be a lot more than rioting in the streets.
  #2160  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:30 PM
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Or, just maybe, they realise that in the vast majority of cases there was no actual police wrongdoing.
I don't see how anyone can be so sure that this is the case. It wasn't for most of America's history -- why is it so certainly true now? For most of American history, police departments (and many/most American institutions) were the active violent enemy of black Americans -- how can anyone be so certain that they are 100% fixed today?
  #2161  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:32 PM
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Most young black men do not commit crimes
Nonsense. Most people commit crimes of some sort, at some point in their lives, and in places like Ferguson it's often enough that the majority of people have warrants out on them.

What happens is poor people commit far more crimes in public, so get more direct police attention. Nothing to do with race. You might as well say that old white men are discriminated against because they're most likely to get their taxes audited (if that's actually true, I'm just guessing it is).

Last edited by Steophan; 04-29-2015 at 04:33 PM.
  #2162  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:33 PM
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I don't see how anyone can be so sure that this is the case. It wasn't for most of America's history -- why is it so certainly true now?
Why isn't it true? There seems to be a gap in the standard argument between "a police officer used force against a black person" and "therefore RACISM".
  #2163  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:33 PM
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I'm sure you youngsters don't remember what a real riot looks like. Or how it started.

Or how it ended. While of course you won't find it on the Wikipedia article, the eventual answer was tanks.
  #2164  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:35 PM
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Long before "the vast number of cases are wrongdoing", there will be a lot more than rioting in the streets.
Again, that's irrelevant to what I said.
  #2165  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:37 PM
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It doesn't matter how many beatings, killing and brutal treatment of innocent American's by the police happens. One is too many.
  #2166  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:43 PM
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I don't see how anyone can be so sure that this is the case. It wasn't for most of America's history -- why is it so certainly true now? For most of American history, police departments (and many/most American institutions) were the active violent enemy of black Americans -- how can anyone be so certain that they are 100% fixed today?
There's hyperbole, and there's outright paranoid lunacy, and this is the latter. It's on a par with the claims that there's been an attempted genocide of black people in America.

Yes, everyone knows black people have been treated terribly in the past, and that things still aren't perfect, but pretending that things aren't improving and attempting to create martyrs out of nothing simply makes your cause look ridiculous.
  #2167  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:45 PM
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It doesn't matter how many beatings, killing and brutal treatment of innocent American's by the police happens. One is too many.
Yep. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. The disagreement is with whether it's happening to innocents, and if so, whether it's happening because of their skin colour. Your attempts to change the subject just show you have no actual reason to believe it is.
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Old 04-29-2015, 04:46 PM
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It doesn't matter how many beatings, killing and brutal treatment of innocent American's by the police happens. One is too many.
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
  #2169  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:50 PM
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I showed the example of an undercover black cop being savaged, illegally beaten and brutalized, and it's handwaved away as "So what? It was twenty years ago", because it bothers the person sure no innocent black men are ever beaten, much less killed by cops.
  #2170  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:53 PM
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Nonsense.
Cite, then, if you believe most young black men are criminals.

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Most people commit crimes of some sort, at some point in their lives, and in places like Ferguson it's often enough that the majority of people have warrants out on them.
I don't trust that all of those warrants were legitimate. I don't find warrants from the 1930s against black people were particularly legitimate either.

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What happens is poor people commit far more crimes in public, so get more direct police attention. Nothing to do with race. You might as well say that old white men are discriminated against because they're most likely to get their taxes audited (if that's actually true, I'm just guessing it is).
The data doesn't support that the disparity is purely explained by poverty. If you think it does, cite.
  #2171  
Old 04-29-2015, 04:55 PM
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Why isn't it true?
I'm sure it is in some cases, just as I'm sure that in some cases in the 1890s, there actually were real black criminals that the cops went after. But I'm unconvinced that the same sorts of biases against black people that existed for pretty much all of American history don't still exist in some lesser degree today.
  #2172  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:07 PM
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What evidence we do have suggests it was negligent, not intentional, due to not buckling him in the van, so justification is irrelevant.
So he just fell out of his seat and severed his spine? The police said there was no accident, so it was not an impact trauma. When does your dance to avoid the inevitable conclusion become so contrived that it strains even your vast credulity?
  #2173  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:16 PM
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So he just fell out of his seat and severed his spine? The police said there was no accident, so it was not an impact trauma. When does your dance to avoid the inevitable conclusion become so contrived that it strains even your vast credulity?
Yes, I think that's what happened. It fits the known facts, unlike claims of a beating.

But, of course, in your world accidents don't happen, people are never negligent, and everything can be explained by racism. It MUST have been a murder, and damn the evidence!
  #2174  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:21 PM
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I hope you are able to convince the ME when the autopsy comes out, that a man severed his own spine while shackled and cuffed, with no force from anyone else.
  #2175  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:24 PM
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Yes, I think that's what happened. It fits the known facts, unlike claims of a beating.
No need for a beating. Look at the video of the guy who got shot by the wannabe who thought he was tasing him, and notice the big guy mashing his head into the pavement with his knee.

Kneeling on people's heads or necks seems to be what passes for reasonable restraint among cops these days. It was just a matter of time before they snapped somebody's neck by doing it.
  #2176  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:24 PM
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I hope you are able to convince the ME when the autopsy comes out, that a man severed his own spine while shackled and cuffed, with no force from anyone else.
I don't think anyone is disputing that the police were responsible for his injuries. The question is whether those injuries were caused maliciously, accidentally, or defensively.
  #2177  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:25 PM
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Cite, then, if you believe most young black men are criminals.
Fuck your cite. Everyone breaks the law at some point, don't pretend that's not the case. And we know young black men commit the sorts of crimes that attract police attention more than anyone else. We've agreed that in other threads (although disagreed on the exact ratio), so don't pretend you don't know it.


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I don't trust that all of those warrants were legitimate. I don't find warrants from the 1930s against black people were particularly legitimate either.
So where's the ACLU, and all the ambulance-chasing lawyers to get the easy payouts on the fake warrants? If they weren't legitimate for the most part, they wouldn't be there. It's not 1965, there's not different laws for white and black.

These people have actually broken the law, actually missed court dates and failed to pay fines. What's happening is you have a culture of people who think the law shouldn't apply to them and get all butthurt when they get caught, instead of accepting it then getting on with their life.

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The data doesn't support that the disparity is purely explained by poverty. If you think it does, cite.
This isn't Great Debates, so I'm not citing something that's blindingly obvious and that everyone should know.

If you genuinely think that there are shitloads of black people being framed by the police for crimes they didn't commit, or having their civil rights violated, explain why there's not a shitload of court cases challenging them. There exist organisations whose sole purpose is to do so, and yet it's not happening.

As I said, maybe they know something that you don't - or more likely, that you do, and won't acknowledge.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:26 PM
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Kneeling on people's heads or necks seems to be what passes for reasonable restraint among cops these days.
Does not a police officer have exactly the same right to self-defense that any other human being does? If someone tries to pick a fight with me and it so happens that kneeling on his neck is the best way for me to restrain him in the heat of things, should I ask him what ethnic group he self-identifies with first in order to ensure that I'm not accidentally being racist towards him?
  #2179  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:27 PM
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I hope you are able to convince the ME when the autopsy comes out, that a man severed his own spine while shackled and cuffed, with no force from anyone else.
I've no idea why you think I'll be talking to the ME. But if you don't think someone could fall and break their neck, I really don't know what to say to you.
  #2180  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:28 PM
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No need for a beating. Look at the video of the guy who got shot by the wannabe who thought he was tasing him, and notice the big guy mashing his head into the pavement with his knee.

Kneeling on people's heads or necks seems to be what passes for reasonable restraint among cops these days. It was just a matter of time before they snapped somebody's neck by doing it.
And your evidence that this happened in this case is what, exactly?
  #2181  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:29 PM
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Yes, I think that's what happened. It fits the known facts, unlike claims of a beating.

But, of course, in your world accidents don't happen, people are never negligent
Apparently it's a surprisingly common "accident". It's almost like it's done on purpose - the expected outcome probably not being "shattered spine" or "dead body" of course. Just beating the "perp" up in a "look ma, no hands !", plausibly deniable kind of way.
In my day they used phonebooks for that. You just can't stop progress !
  #2182  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:32 PM
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And your evidence that this happened in this case is what, exactly?
As you said a minute ago, "This isn't Great Debates, so I'm not citing something that's blindingly obvious and that everyone should know."
  #2183  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:37 PM
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Does not a police officer have exactly the same right to self-defense that any other human being does?
Not when his prisoner is cuffed and shackled. The police have a duty of care towards those in their custody, absent any evidence that the prisoner attacked them with lethal force. Since we have no evidence that such an attack took place, they can hardly claim they were defending themselves.
  #2184  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:40 PM
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But if you don't think someone could fall and break their neck, I really don't know what to say to you.
While laying, shackled and cuffed, on the floor of a paddy wagon? One of us has a very active imagination.
  #2185  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:41 PM
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Not when his prisoner is cuffed and shackled.
Can you prove that the injuries happened after he was cuffed and shackled? Can you prove that a cuffed and shackled person cannot possibly cause willful injury to another?

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Since we have no evidence that such an attack took place, they can hardly claim they were defending themselves.
Since we have no evidence that he was maliciously assaulted, we can hardly claim a murder occurred.

Last edited by Smapti; 04-29-2015 at 05:42 PM.
  #2186  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:42 PM
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Does not a police officer have exactly the same right to self-defense that any other human being does? If someone tries to pick a fight with me and it so happens that kneeling on his neck is the best way for me to restrain him in the heat of things, should I ask him what ethnic group he self-identifies with first in order to ensure that I'm not accidentally being racist towards him?
I'm not talking about people fighting, I'm talking about people who have given up, are lying on the ground, often already handcuffed, and in the case I mentioned, already shot.

You might also enjoy that video of the guy who stole the horse getting the crap kicked out of him long after he submitted, again without ever fighting, just running.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:43 PM
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Can you prove that the injuries happened after he was cuffed and shackled?
One of the police already said he was OK when he went in to the back of the van.
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Can you prove that a cuffed and shackled person cannot possibly cause willful injury to another?
I don't have to. There is no evidence of such an attack, so speculation is unsupported.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:46 PM
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Since we have no evidence that he was maliciously assaulted, we can hardly claim a murder occurred.
I never said it was murder. But the police have a duty of care once he is in custody. If they can't prove he attacked them, or self-inflicted his injuries, they are responsible for anything that happens to him.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:46 PM
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One of the police already said he was OK when he went in to the back of the van.
What, so now you trust the police?
  #2190  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:47 PM
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What, so now you trust the police?
You opened that door.
  #2191  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:47 PM
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If they can't prove he attacked them, or self-inflicted his injuries, they are responsible for anything that happens to him.
He ran from the police. Everything that happened to him from that point on was self-inflicted.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:48 PM
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You might also enjoy that video of the guy who stole the horse getting the crap kicked out of him long after he submitted, again without ever fighting, just running.
Running is fighting. You may as well just suck on a Remington for all the good it'll do you.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:48 PM
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He ran from the police. Everything that happened to him from that point on was self-inflicted.
Not after the was shackled and cuffed. Duty of care.
  #2194  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:48 PM
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What, so now you trust the police?
As most people learn by about age 12, when someone makes a statement that is against his own interest, it is more likely to be truthful than when he says something that will benefit him.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:49 PM
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I knew America had this whole "tough on crime" shit going on, but I did not realize up to this point that "moving away from a police officer" was, in fact, a capital crime. The more you know.

Last edited by Kobal2; 04-29-2015 at 05:49 PM.
  #2196  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:50 PM
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I really don't see how anyone can doubt that his injuries and death were caused by the police failing to strap him in and then driving recklessly... And I suspect that the officers will be punished appropriately for it.

None of which has anything to do with race, or beatings, or murder, or justification for riots.

Oh, and note that in the few cases where people were injured like this in the past they received multi-million dollar payouts. Strange how that isn't happening to all the other "innocent victims", isn't it.
  #2197  
Old 04-29-2015, 05:52 PM
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As most people learn by about age 12, when someone makes a statement that is against his own interest, it is more likely to be truthful than when he says something that will benefit him.
Of course, most people also learn that, just because you don't believe a statement, you can't assume the opposite is true without evidence.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:52 PM
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Running is fighting.
Sorry, I didn't realize that English is not your native language.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:54 PM
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Not after the was shackled and cuffed. Duty of care.
It's possible for both sides to be in the wrong, and both sides to be responsible. Someone who resists arrest or flees the police is in the wrong.
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Old 04-29-2015, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Steophan View Post
I really don't see how anyone can doubt that his injuries and death were caused by the police failing to strap him in and then driving recklessly...
There is no evidence the police drove recklessly.
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