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  #301  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Which, as noted, is my stance on the matter.
What about the rest of my post? Why would you be spending so much effort on something with exactly the same evidence that Omar is or married a space-alien? This is nonsense, and Omar is right in treating it as random internet silliness.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-04-2019 at 03:38 PM.
  #302  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:41 PM
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What about the rest of my post? Why would you be spending so much effort on something with exactly the same evidence that Omar is or married a space-alien? This is nonsense, and Omar is right in treating it as random internet silliness.
Why is it silly? While there is evidence consistent with innocence, there is also evidence consistent with guilt.

Why do you have any predetermined answer?

Climate change denialism started out of a belief that it's silly to think that humans can affect the entire climate, given the sheer tonnage of the air, compared to our diminutive size. The sense that something is silly is irrelevant to reality.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-04-2019 at 03:42 PM.
  #303  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:45 PM
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Why is it silly? While there is evidence consistent with innocence, there is also evidence consistent with guilt.

Why do you have any predetermined answer?

Climate change denialism started out of a belief that it's silly to think that humans can affect the entire climate, given the sheer tonnage of the air, compared to our diminutive size. The sense that something is silly is irrelevant to reality.
Space aliens, man. Let's see you spend as much effort on the possibility that Omar and her former husband are from space and can change their shape.

You're just JAQ'ing off here. No different than Birthers pretending like it's entirely reasonable for them to be questioning Obama's birthplace.

My "predetermined answer" is the same as it is for any random, evidence-free internet nonsense -- this is conspiracy theory nonsense and should be ignored, barring actual evidence. That should be your answer too, along with the answer of any thinking person.
  #304  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:53 PM
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If you genuinely care about Omar and you genuinely care about the truth, you can do these things and you are completely liable to completely demolish the right.


I'm sitting here telling you how to disprove the accusations and trying to push you to disprove them.
Do you care about the truth? You've spent an awful lot of time trying to get other people to dig up the real story here. It would be far easier, I think, to just do that stuff yourself.

Then you really win, because you can shove the proof in all of our stupid faces.
  #305  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:59 PM
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Space aliens, man. Let's see you spend as much effort on the possibility that Omar and her former husband are from space and can change their shape.
I believe that I spent about an hour, overall. Since then, most of my time has been spent trying to get people to not railroad their thinking. As said, I don't really care how things turn out with Omar, my concern is the lack of critical thinking.

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You're just JAQ'ing off here. No different than Birthers pretending like it's entirely reasonable for them to be questioning Obama's birthplace.
The evidence is inconsistent with Obama having been born outside the USA. Ergo, it's not true.

If the evidence was consistent and there were plausible accusations independent of biased/likely dishonest sources, then it would be within the realm of possibility up until the point where new evidence came in.

In the case of Omar, the idea began in the Somali community, from a guy who was respected enough to be designated a moderator for the site, and who seems to have had a serial hatred for hypocrisy and liars.

It's quite possibly that he simply misread the social media connections between Omar and her ex and assumed, based on Elmi's name, that they had the same father. It's hard to know how the rumor came to be. But if the accusation were true, we would expect it to be a bit of trivia floating around as gossip in the Somali community and we would expect it to be a "lawful-*" type to be the one to let it out. That is what we see in reality.

Assuming that the guy generated it based on assumptions - when we know nothing about how he came across the information and when there's a reasonable amount of evidence consistent with the accusation - is foolhardy. It's completely within the realm of possibility that he generated it through coming up with a theory consistent with the evidence and then decided that this meant his theory was true. But we don't know that.

From what we know, it's not a silly accusation. It could be true. But there are other explanations that could also be true.

Disproving the accusation, despite statements to the contrary, would be fairly easy. And, as noted, it would likely be financially profitable for Omar to do sp as well. So whether the specific accusation is true or not, I would lean against innocence - I just wouldn't strongly lean to a specific version of guilt.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-04-2019 at 04:01 PM.
  #306  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:08 PM
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Do you care about the truth?
I'm curious to know the real answer. Whether we'll ever get that, I don't know. If we don't, I will continue to sleep soundly. I'll continue to be happy that Omar is in politics, bringing a different perspective to Congress.

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You've spent an awful lot of time trying to get other people to dig up the real story here. It would be far easier, I think, to just do that stuff yourself.
Indeed. But, it's more useful to the world for me to do what I'm doing.

For a historian who is deeply entranced by the mystery of Atlantis, there is going to be a giant sense of accomplishment in finding some proof pro or con that Atlantis is real.

For a teacher, giving his students the legend of Atlantis and pushing them to come to a logic and evidence based conclusion will be the thing that gives him a sense of accomplishment.

On this topic, I'm in the latter camp. I feel like it brings more to the world than the former.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-04-2019 at 04:10 PM.
  #307  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:25 PM
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I'm curious to know the real answer. Whether we'll ever get that, I don't know. If we don't, I will continue to sleep soundly. I'll continue to be happy that Omar is in politics, bringing a different perspective to Congress.


Indeed. But, it's more useful to the world for me to do what I'm doing.

For a historian who is deeply entranced by the mystery of Atlantis, there is going to be a giant sense of accomplishment in finding some proof pro or con that Atlantis is real.

For a teacher, giving his students the legend of Atlantis and pushing them to come to a logic and evidence based conclusion will be the thing that gives him a sense of accomplishment.

On this topic, I'm in the latter camp. I feel like it brings more to the world than the former.
This is some delusional bullshit right here. You're trying to justify some crackpot theory by pretending it's some lofty search for "Truth". Do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better to mitigate the embarrassment you've already caused yourself. Just don't expect "the world" to be grateful to you for this load of crap.

(JFC, Atlantis?...You're a fucking loon.)
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  #308  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:43 PM
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I believe that I spent about an hour, overall. Since then, most of my time has been spent trying to get people to not railroad their thinking. As said, I don't really care how things turn out with Omar, my concern is the lack of critical thinking.


The evidence is inconsistent with Obama having been born outside the USA. Ergo, it's not true.

If the evidence was consistent and there were plausible accusations independent of biased/likely dishonest sources, then it would be within the realm of possibility up until the point where new evidence came in.

In the case of Omar, the idea began in the Somali community, from a guy who was respected enough to be designated a moderator for the site, and who seems to have had a serial hatred for hypocrisy and liars.

It's quite possibly that he simply misread the social media connections between Omar and her ex and assumed, based on Elmi's name, that they had the same father. It's hard to know how the rumor came to be. But if the accusation were true, we would expect it to be a bit of trivia floating around as gossip in the Somali community and we would expect it to be a "lawful-*" type to be the one to let it out. That is what we see in reality.

Assuming that the guy generated it based on assumptions - when we know nothing about how he came across the information and when there's a reasonable amount of evidence consistent with the accusation - is foolhardy. It's completely within the realm of possibility that he generated it through coming up with a theory consistent with the evidence and then decided that this meant his theory was true. But we don't know that.

From what we know, it's not a silly accusation. It could be true. But there are other explanations that could also be true.

Disproving the accusation, despite statements to the contrary, would be fairly easy. And, as noted, it would likely be financially profitable for Omar to do sp as well. So whether the specific accusation is true or not, I would lean against innocence - I just wouldn't strongly lean to a specific version of guilt.
The Birthers fashion stories that are consistent with whatever facts are out there. Any time a new fact is pointed out, their story changes. All this demonstrates is the power of imagination. You've offered nothing more than the Birthers.
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  #309  
Old 09-04-2019, 05:29 PM
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This is some delusional bullshit right here. You're trying to justify some crackpot theory by pretending it's some lofty search for "Truth". Do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better to mitigate the embarrassment you've already caused yourself. Just don't expect "the world" to be grateful to you for this load of crap.

(JFC, Atlantis?...You're a fucking loon.)
Like I said:
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Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
What I'm seeing is the same thing I saw with 9/11 Twoofers: the piling up of a bunch of relatively innocuous grains of sand, pointing to the pile, and asking "What about all of this?"

Without solid evidence, it's a all just a pile of sand.
  #310  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:01 PM
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The Birthers fashion stories that are consistent with whatever facts are out there. Any time a new fact is pointed out, their story changes. All this demonstrates is the power of imagination. You've offered nothing more than the Birthers.
a) https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=300
b) The birthers had no precipitating information from any source that would be in the know.
c) There was never any information consistent with their theory.

So yes, if we ignore those points then I have said that Omar was having three ways with a giraffe and her brother, and I base that on my last tarot reading. But to get there you have just blasted past what I said and asserted three discrete statements that are directly in contradiction to what I actually said.

Now, I assume that you discount all of this for reasons. I'm not saying that you're being dishonest nor unreasonable. But at least give those reasons if you're going to ignore literally every statement and present a completely opposite view of exactly what was stated.
  #311  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:04 PM
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This is some delusional bullshit right here. You're trying to justify some crackpot theory by pretending it's some lofty search for "Truth". Do whatever you need to do to make yourself feel better to mitigate the embarrassment you've already caused yourself. Just don't expect "the world" to be grateful to you for this load of crap.

(JFC, Atlantis?...You're a fucking loon.)
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=300

Why do you believe that I have accused Omar of anything, if that is in direct contradiction to what I have said?
  #312  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:29 PM
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a) https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=300
b) The birthers had no precipitating information from any source that would be in the know.
c) There was never any information consistent with their theory.

So yes, if we ignore those points then I have said that Omar was having three ways with a giraffe and her brother, and I base that on my last tarot reading. But to get there you have just blasted past what I said and asserted three discrete statements that are directly in contradiction to what I actually said.

Now, I assume that you discount all of this for reasons. I'm not saying that you're being dishonest nor unreasonable. But at least give those reasons if you're going to ignore literally every statement and present a completely opposite view of exactly what was stated.
This doesn't conflict with what I've said. You're not doing exactly the same thing as the Birthers, but you're not offering anything more than the Birthers. There's no more reason to believe that Omar married her brother than to believe that Obama was born in Kenya. The social media posts you've presented tell us absolutely nothing. A "just so" story tells us absolutely nothing. There's nothing here. But you're acting like it's reasonable to suspect there might be something there... but there's no reason for this. No more than for Birtherism. No more "information consistent" than for Birtherism. Omar and her brother both breathe oxygen... her husband also breathes oxygen... so maybe Omar married her brother. Omar doesn't seem to want to talk about this or provide documentation... Obama doesn't seem to want to provide his long-form... There's nothing more than the equivalent to this.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-04-2019 at 06:31 PM.
  #313  
Old 09-04-2019, 07:01 PM
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https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=300

Why do you believe that I have accused Omar of anything, if that is in direct contradiction to what I have said?
You, almost exactly seven weeks ago: evidence does seem relatively likely to come in.
  #314  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:20 PM
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You, almost exactly seven weeks ago: evidence does seem relatively likely to come in.
And? I have also said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Disproving the accusation, despite statements to the contrary, would be fairly easy. And, as noted, it would likely be financially profitable for Omar to do sp as well. So whether the specific accusation is true or not, I would lean against innocence - I just wouldn't strongly lean to a specific version of guilt.
And I have said that.

These are not conflicting statements.

I'll also point you to this post:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=103
  #315  
Old 09-04-2019, 09:52 PM
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There is no actual evidence that she married her brother. All you showed was evidence consistent with one possible story that she married her brother. It's also consistent with a possible story that she married a space alien shape-changer. Or that she is a space alien shape-changer. Or a million other possibilities.

May I introduce you to Sage Rat?


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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The way to combat this kind of silliness is to ignore it, barring actual evidence. This is bullshit conspiracy nonsense. There's no reasoning with those who believe bullshit conspiracy nonsense.

Oh, I see you've already met.

Last edited by Monty; 09-04-2019 at 09:53 PM.
  #316  
Old 09-04-2019, 10:01 PM
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Disproving the accusation, despite statements to the contrary, would be fairly easy. And, as noted, it would likely be financially profitable for Omar to do sp as well.
As with Birthers and Twoofers, one cannot be reasoned out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.
  #317  
Old 09-04-2019, 10:48 PM
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As with Birthers and Twoofers, one cannot be reasoned out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.
What is my position?
  #318  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:01 PM
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These are not conflicting statements.
Yes, they are. They are, in fact, in direct contradiction. You have said that you believe that something will be found on Omar. You can only "find something" on someone who is guilty of something. Therefore, you in fact said that you believe she is guilty.

Now that no evidence has come to light, and the story has fallen out of the limelight, you are here trying to change what you said. Now you claim you didn't accuse her of anything, when you very clearly did.

It's understandable, but the reasons why are not pretty. At the surface level, you just don't want to admit you were wrong, or even concede that you're probably wrong. But I suspect something deeper is going on: that which kept the Birther movement going.

And one of the things that kept the Birther movement going was the fact that people would have to confront in their mind why they were so sure of something that had no evidence--why they dug in past the point when it was clear they were wrong. And they'd have to confront the fact that the person they believed the bad stuff about was brown.

Now, I'm not saying that is your reason, or even any particular Birther's reason. But it was a factor in the Birther movement as a whole, and it is a factor in why this belief with Omar persists. And so every individual who believed either one has to confront at least the possibility that subconscious racism or bigotry played a part.

It would be so much easier if you could just believe that you never actually accused Omar of anything. That would make it where you didn't have to question it.

My advice: realize that thoughts are not bad, and that, if you did have racist assumptions, then you just need to be more careful in the future. Beating yourself up is always pointless.

That's my take, anyways. It's the one where you come out looking the best. It would suck if you really were becoming a conspiracy nutter.
  #319  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:03 PM
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What is my position?
Your position is that something will be found on Omar, which is what Skywalker quoted. While you're not sure she married her brother, you think something untoward happened, and that it will be discovered.

Yes, that's vague. But a vague accusation is still an accusation. It's the classic conspiracy theorist gambit: try to throw as wide a net as possible. That way you can claim you are always right.

Given the quote from your blog where you believe you were right about the Mueller report, it seems being right about your predictions is very important to you. Hence the constant attempts to move the goalposts.

Last edited by BigT; 09-04-2019 at 11:05 PM.
  #320  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:04 PM
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This doesn't conflict with what I've said. You're not doing exactly the same thing as the Birthers, but you're not offering anything more than the Birthers.
A man comes to you saying that he was told by a low-level flunky in Donald Trump's orbit that they had access to illegal Russian-gained materials that had been stolen.

You take a one hour to Google and determine that Trump has various ties to Russian sources.

You write this and post it publicly.

As soon as you do so, all of the information about those links is deleted and scoured from the Internet.

Now, should you be completely surprised if a full investigation fails to prove guilt? No.

Is that deeper investigation merited? Probably, yes.

The Donald may well be innocent. But it's curious if he works very hard to destroy information. Possibly it's because he's guilty of the hinted-at crime. Possibly he's just overly concerned with his image and can't handle people using innocent business relationships against him. Possibly he's just worried that any in-depth investigation will find something else of which he is guilty.

But in all cases, Alexander Downer had no personal profit from making the accusation. And that is worth taking note of, and particularly if the reaction to the accusation is bizarre.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-04-2019 at 11:08 PM.
  #321  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:06 PM
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Your position is that something will be found on Omar, which is what Skywalker quoted. While you're not sure she married her brother, you think something untoward happened, and that it will be discovered.

Yes, that's vague. But a vague accusation is still an accusation. It's the classic conspiracy theorist gambit: try to throw as wide a net as possible.
I would quibble that my position is that it is likely that she is guilty of something and thereby something is liable to found. But, in general, I'll accept your description.

Thank you for being (largely) accurate to my statements.
  #322  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:21 PM
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Your position is that something will be found on Omar, which is what Skywalker quoted. While you're not sure she married her brother, you think something untoward happened, and that it will be discovered.

Yes, that's vague. But a vague accusation is still an accusation. It's the classic conspiracy theorist gambit: try to throw as wide a net as possible. That way you can claim you are always right.
Exactly, and right out of the Twoofer playbook.

Nearly 18 years and I'm still waiting to see this evidence they were all yammering about.

Last edited by Skywatcher; 09-04-2019 at 11:25 PM.
  #323  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:54 PM
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Prior to to being famous, two publications, The Harvard Law Review 1992 and a pamphlet promoting up and coming authors 1993, published biographies stating Obama was born in Kenya. All us Birthers have to do is point to Obama's own words to validate our beliefs. Who else other than Obama would write his biography at that point in his life?

I know multiple people who have a parent from a foreign country and not a single one of them has ever mistakenly stated they were born in that foreign country, yet this happened to Obama twice.
  #324  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:07 AM
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Prior to to being famous, two publications, The Harvard Law Review 1992 and a pamphlet promoting up and coming authors 1993, published biographies stating Obama was born in Kenya. All us Birthers have to do is point to Obama's own words to validate our beliefs. Who else other than Obama would write his biography at that point in his life?

I know multiple people who have a parent from a foreign country and not a single one of them has ever mistakenly stated they were born in that foreign country, yet this happened to Obama twice.
Don't you get tired of spreading shit that's been debunked a long time ago?
Quote:
The editor of the biographical text about Barack Obama which was included in the booklet maintained that the mention of Kenya was an error on her part and was not based on any information provided to her by Obama himself:

Miriam Goderich edited the text of the bio; she is now a partner at the Dystel & Goderich agency, which lists Obama as one of its current clients.

ďYouíre undoubtedly aware of the brouhaha stirred up by Breitbart about the erroneous statement in a client list Acton & Dystel published in 1991 (for circulation within the publishing industry only) that Barack Obama was born in Kenya. This was nothing more than a fact checking error by me ó an agency assistant at the time,Ē Goderich wrote. ďThere was never any information given to us by Obama in any of his correspondence or other communications suggesting in any way that he was born in Kenya and not Hawaii. I hope you can communicate to your readers that this was a simple mistake and nothing more.Ē

A New York Times article about Barack Obama published in 1990, a year before the Acton & Dystel promotional booklet was issued, correctly identified his birthplace as Hawaii.
  #325  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LAZombie View Post
Prior to to being famous, two publications, The Harvard Law Review 1992 and a pamphlet promoting up and coming authors 1993, published biographies stating Obama was born in Kenya. All us Birthers have to do is point to Obama's own words to validate our beliefs. Who else other than Obama would write his biography at that point in his life?
It was checked and the person who posted it said that it was a mistake.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/promotional-booklet/

I have suggested that others perform a similar check and said that it may well prove them correct. As of yet, they refuse to do so.
  #326  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:15 AM
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President Obama’s father was Kenyan, so it’s simple for someone not double-checking to mistakenly put that he was born in Kenya. Especially in the early 90s, many years before he was famous. There’s no “gotcha” there.
  #327  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:44 AM
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OK, I got a new month’s worth of access to the Star-Tribune, and even though the Vikings season opener is this weekend, I used up one of my articles on this. You’re welcome.

So let’s first dispense with this notion so many of you are pushing hard, that raising these questions is complete nuttery, equivalent to Alex Jones claiming the Newtown shootings were a false flag operation and that the grieving parents were actors. The “Strib” is no yellow journalism tabloid: as Wikipedia notes, “Journalists from the Star Tribune and its predecessor newspapers have won six Pulitzer Prizes, including two in 2013.”

And of course they are the newspaper of record for Omar‘s district, given that the entire city of Minneapolis lies within her district.

So let’s look at the lede of the article in question, which as I had thought was published earlier this summer:


http://m.startribune.com/new-documen...age/511681362/



Quote:
New investigative documents released by a state agency have given fresh life to lingering questions about the marital history of Rep. Ilhan Omar and whether she once married a man — possibly her own brother — to skirt immigration laws.

The article is quite long and I won’t try to sum it up here. But there is an aspect of it that I think should be highlighted. Omar herself does of course try to dismiss the allegations as being “baseless” and specifically raises an objection that is reminiscent of some of yours:

Quote:
Omar expressed frustration over the controversy again last October, telling the Star Tribune in an interview that like many refugees without birth certificates, “anybody can accuse me of whatever they want and I don’t have a way to defend myself.”

But it really does seem like she and her family could put these questions to rest, which backs up Sage Rat’s perspective. It’s one thing to say they shouldn’t even have to, in response to conspiracy theories posted on fringe sites. But when the questions are coming from the only major daily newspaper in your congressional district, wouldn’t you want to dispel them if you actually could? It seems very fishy to me. Specifically, I am referring to the following:

Quote:
Sent a list of questions and a request to talk to her siblings and father, Omar declined to do so. Hirsi did not reply to multiple calls, texts and e-mails. Social media posts indicate Elmi is in Africa. He did not respond to multiple e-mails.
Omar’s reticence is consistent with near total silence she has maintained for three years amid questions raised through public records...
Quote:
Beyond denying the provocative allegation that Elmi is her brother, Omar has shed little light on her married life, which began in 2002, when she wed Hirsi in their Muslim faith tradition.
The Star Tribune has sought to authenticate some of the most egregious allegations, using public records and available social media posts, which make up the bulk of the case against her.
Some of the original social media accounts linking Elmi to Omar after their split in 2011 appear to have been removed, and documents verifying the family relationships of refugees from war-torn countries with limited government record-keeping are notoriously hard to obtain, even by U.S. immigration authorities.
Omar declined to make her tax and immigration records available for this report.
Quote:
In her divorce, Omar said she had tried unsuccessfully to reach Elmi to respond to her court filings, including through social media. She also said that she did not know any other friends of family members who could contact him.
Omar and Elmi used a Columbia Heights address on the marriage application. Three months later, Hirsi used the same address to obtain a business license for his One-on-One Cafe Lounge, public records show.
Omar declined to offer an account of their living arrangement at that time.
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Omar’s relatives could also clear the air, but they have remained silent about her marriage to Elmi. She declined to make her family available for this story.
In 2016, her campaign provided the names of six siblings, but only their first names, citing their need for privacy.
It’s pretty obvious they are hiding something. What exactly that is, I can’t say because they are hiding it.

My hunch is that he is actually not her brother, but that the reason she can’t disprove this is that doing so would require confessing to some other immigration-related malfeasance. (The Strib did find people who knew her ex-husband and they said he never mentioned being married.)

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-05-2019 at 12:47 AM.
  #328  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:45 AM
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President Obama’s father was Kenyan, so it’s simple for someone not double-checking to mistakenly put that he was born in Kenya. Especially in the early 90s, many years before he was famous. There’s no “gotcha” there.
I agree. It seems like a fairly straightforward sort of goof to make. It's a harder goof to make to write a post where you say that you have heard tell that she married her brother and link to posts where the ex-husband is calling her children his nieces.

And, as said, it is a bizarre reaction to scrub the internet of such posts rather than simply say, "Yeah, they weren't his children but he was sort of their dad for a while, so 'niece' was a compromise term that he took up using. No, he's not my brother."

A person who acts guilty isn't always guilty. But, it does tend to be correlated. As one Lawfare podcast said, if Bill Clinton had simply been like, "I'm a consenting adult. She's a consenting adult. We did adult things. Butt out." No one would have cared. But Bill felt like he was guilty of something, acted guilty, committed perjury as a side effect of guilty, and in fact was guilty of what he had been accused of doing. It wasn't a surprise that the accusation proved true based simply on Bill's acting guilty.

At a mile-high view, comparing the genesis of the two accusations may seem reasonable. But the Alexander Downer situation is a better parallel. Going to the FBI and accusing Papadopoulos of talking about criminal activity is not a typo. It could be have been wildly off-base, but it's much less likely to be predicated on a goof.

The SomaliSpot case would have been relatively likely to have been a goof of reading too much into the word "niece". But the reaction to the discovery matches the Trump case more than the Obama. As said, a person who acts guilty is liable to be guilty.

Trump acted hella guilty. Even without his past, I would expect that a thorough investigation was liable to discover something that he didn't want found just based on how he responded. Note, in a similar vein, Comey's reaction to breaking news of the Steele Report to Trump. Whatever reaction it was that Trump had to it, Comey's first instinct was, "This dude's guilty. I better start keeping careful notes."

That could be wrong and unfair, but it's a reasonable response to someone acting guilty.

The Omar accusation on SomaliSpot itself...eh. The acting guilty - well, it makes me lean a particular direction in my expectations. But, as said, I'm more riled up by people deciding a priori of nothing that a bunch of right-wing idiots learned Somali so that they could manufacture falsified images of social media posts. That's plain off stupid and if that's you, then you are stupid whether my leaning on the matter proves to be correct or not.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-05-2019 at 12:46 AM.
  #329  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:15 AM
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And, as said, it is a bizarre reaction to scrub the internet of such posts rather than simply say, "Yeah, they weren't his children but he was sort of their dad for a while, so 'niece' was a compromise term that he took up using. No, he's not my brother."
Plus there's the whole previous discussion we've already had about the fact that in Somali and many other cultures, reference to someone as an aunt, uncle, niece or nephew often has nothing to do with familial relationships at all. My Somali-born friend calls me "Uncle" when talking to her children and I'm pretty sure we've never been in any sort of relationship beyond having the odd cup of tea in her kitchen and chatting.

So he didn't even have to be "sort of their dad for a while" to be called uncle and to use the term 'niece'. All he had to be was on speaking terms with them.
  #330  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:23 AM
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There's nothing more than rumor and innuendo. That the Star Tribune investigated it means nothing - newspapers investigate rumor and innuendo all the time. All they found was more rumor and innuendo.
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Old 09-05-2019, 05:28 AM
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There's nothing more than rumor and innuendo. That the Star Tribune investigated it means nothing - newspapers investigate rumor and innuendo all the time. All they found was more rumor and innuendo.
But, see, there wouldn't be any rumor or innuendo unless she was "acting guilty". And just because "acting guilty" is an entirely subjective measure and is only being cited by people predisposed to believing that she's guilty of "something", this in no way mitigates the fact that this is all somehow her fault.

Last edited by Gyrate; 09-05-2019 at 05:28 AM.
  #332  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:35 AM
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Plus there's the whole previous discussion we've already had about the fact that in Somali and many other cultures, reference to someone as an aunt, uncle, niece or nephew often has nothing to do with familial relationships at all. My Somali-born friend calls me "Uncle" when talking to her children and I'm pretty sure we've never been in any sort of relationship beyond having the odd cup of tea in her kitchen and chatting.

So he didn't even have to be "sort of their dad for a while" to be called uncle and to use the term 'niece'. All he had to be was on speaking terms with them.
Hell, I have lots of people I have no relation to and have never met in person who call me "Daddy".

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 09-05-2019 at 05:36 AM.
  #333  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:03 AM
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But, see, there wouldn't be any rumor or innuendo unless she was "acting guilty". And just because "acting guilty" is an entirely subjective measure and is only being cited by people predisposed to believing that she's guilty of "something", this in no way mitigates the fact that this is all somehow her fault.

Itís not entirely subjective at all. The Strib asked for a variety of things she refused to give. She wouldnít turn over documents, she wouldnít give full names of her family members, she wouldnít even answer as to whether she was living with her then-husband when they filed their marriage paperwork. In court when she filed for divorce, she claimed she not only didnít know where he was but she didnít even know anyone who might know. Thatís extremely hard to believe, and all of these things in combination make it look quite obvious that she is not being forthcoming.

But sheís never actually been caught lying about anything or breaking any rules, right? Oh wait, not true. As the article points out, she got fined for violating campaign finance law.
  #334  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:09 AM
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For a teacher, giving his students the legend of Atlantis and pushing them to come to a logic and evidence based conclusion will be the thing that gives him a sense of accomplishment.
I'm not your fucking student.
  #335  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:13 AM
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It’s not entirely subjective at all. The Strib asked for a variety of things she refused to give. She wouldn’t turn over documents, she wouldn’t give full names of her family members, she wouldn’t even answer as to whether she was living with her then-husband when they filed their marriage paperwork. In court when she filed for divorce, she claimed she not only didn’t know where he was but she didn’t even know anyone who might know. That’s extremely hard to believe, and all of these things in combination make it look quite obvious that she is not being forthcoming.
Nothing but rumor and innuendo.
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Old 09-05-2019, 07:36 AM
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I'm not your fucking student.

And Sage Rat certainly is no fucking teacher.
  #337  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:40 AM
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It’s not entirely subjective at all. The Strib asked for a variety of things she refused to give. She wouldn’t turn over documents, she wouldn’t give full names of her family members, she wouldn’t even answer as to whether she was living with her then-husband when they filed their marriage paperwork. In court when she filed for divorce, she claimed she not only didn’t know where he was but she didn’t even know anyone who might know. That’s extremely hard to believe, and all of these things in combination make it look quite obvious that she is not being forthcoming.

But she’s never actually been caught lying about anything or breaking any rules, right? Oh wait, not true. As the article points out, she got fined for violating campaign finance law.
"The victim of our bullshit witch hunt will not turn over endless reams of documents to exonerate her from our bad faith attacks! This clearly proves that she's guilty!"

Look, did Birthers shut up when Obama turned over his birth certificate and later the long form birth certificate? No. They called it fake. Why the fuck would Ilhan Omar even dignify this bullshit with her attention?

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 09-05-2019 at 07:41 AM.
  #338  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:52 AM
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Itís not entirely subjective at all. The Strib asked for a variety of things she refused to give. She wouldnít turn over documents, she wouldnít give full names of her family members, she wouldnít even answer as to whether she was living with her then-husband when they filed their marriage paperwork. In court when she filed for divorce, she claimed she not only didnít know where he was but she didnít even know anyone who might know. Thatís extremely hard to believe, and all of these things in combination make it look quite obvious that she is not being forthcoming.
Yes, it's very suspicious how she wouldn't provide the media with details of her personal life (or "hand over documents") when asked about unsupported rumors and innuendo. Oh wait - no it isn't. And she's made it clear that she's not answering stupid intrusive questions about her personal life because they're stupid intrusive questions about her personal life.

Quote:
But sheís never actually been caught lying about anything or breaking any rules, right? Oh wait, not true. As the article points out, she got fined for violating campaign finance law.
She was fined for "using campaign money for out-of-state travel while serving as a state representative". Is it your contention that this translates into a predilection for lying about everything?

I bet you've lied a few times in your life, and therefore everything you write here can be assumed to be a lie. In fact, I demand you provide me with details of all the times you've told a lie. If you refuse to, that indicates you have something to hide and therefore we can reasonably assume you're guilty of something. I'm not sure what yet, but clearly we can't trust any protestations of innocence you may make.

To be frank, I'm not really defending Omar here. I don't really care that much about her, except in a general humanitarian way. What I'm doing is attempting to point out some deeply flawed arguments that have no rational or evidential basis to them, as is the case here and as is the case with Sage Rat's similarly ludicrous lines of reasoning.
  #339  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:52 AM
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My Somali-born friend calls me "Uncle" when talking to her children and I'm pretty sure we've never been in any sort of relationship beyond having the odd cup of tea in her kitchen and chatting.
Are you sure that she's not your sister and you aren't married to her, though?
  #340  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:53 AM
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"The victim of our bullshit witch hunt will not turn over endless reams of documents to exonerate her from our bad faith attacks! This clearly proves that she's guilty!"

So you believe the Pulitzer Prize winning Star Tribune is engaged in a bullshit witchhunt? And it’s not just about endless paperwork: she won’t even answer their questions.

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Look, did Birthers shut up when Obama turned over his birth certificate and later the long form birth certificate? No. They called it fake. Why the fuck would Ilhan Omar even dignify this bullshit with her attention?
How about because she has already been caught doing dishonest and illegal things and her Pulitzer Prize winning hometown newspaper is asking her about this?
Obama was right to turn over those documents. It doesn’t matter whether people would shut up about it, fewer people would listen to them once he did that.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-05-2019 at 07:57 AM.
  #341  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:56 AM
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Look, did Birthers shut up when Obama turned over his birth certificate and later the long form birth certificate? No. They called it fake.
Frankly, this is all that needs to be said about this entire affair.

The folks on the right lost all credibility on topics like this when they didn't accept Obama's original birth certificate. From now on, the right answer is to ask them to put up their actual evidence, not spend time trying to prove their bullshit claims wrong.

Something looks "off"? Then you go get some evidence, you sort through the shit, you support your case with verifiable facts, then get back to us. Don't expect your victim to unload a mountain of paperwork to prove your Facebook Investigation is faulty.
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Old 09-05-2019, 07:58 AM
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How about because she has already been caught doing dishonest and illegal things and her Pulitzer Prize winning hometown newspaper is asking her about this?
Rephrasing the question does not change the answer or make your argument any more valid.

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Are you sure that she's not your sister and you aren't married to her, though?
I can't be sure because I once lied about something and also I've received two moving violations and therefore am a lying criminal who can't be trusted. I mean, I don't have a marriage certificate to her but it's entirely possible that I am refusing to release it to myself and that I'm a secret incestuous bigamist. After all, I can't prove that I'm not.
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Old 09-05-2019, 08:01 AM
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I think it’s pretty obvious at this point that several of you don’t really believe there is no merit to these suspicions. You just like her left wing politics and her distinctly non-white-male-Christianness, so you want her to get away with it.
  #344  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:01 AM
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So you believe the Pulitzer Prize winning Star Tribune is engaged in a bullshit witchhunt? And itís not just about endless paperwork: she wonít even answer their questions.
Which part of "stupid intrusive personal questions" are you not getting?

Quote:
How about because she has already been caught doing dishonest and illegal things and her Pulitzer Prize winning hometown newspaper is asking her about this?
Obama was right to turn over those documents. It doesnít matter whether people would shut up about it, fewer people would listen to them once he did that.
This has already been answered, no matter how many times you repeat "Pulitzer Prize winning".
  #345  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:03 AM
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I think itís pretty obvious at this point that several of you donít really believe there is no merit to these suspicions. You just like her left wing politics and her distinctly non-white-male-Christianness, so you want her to get away with it.
I think it's fairly obvious at this point that your argument is weak bullshit, and that you're now seeking to handwave away your own failings by blaming them on partisan bias.
  #346  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:05 AM
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I think itís pretty obvious at this point that several of you donít really believe there is no merit to these suspicions. You just like her left wing politics and her distinctly non-white-male-Christianness, so you want her to get away with it.
Once again, the only way to disagree with SlackerInc is to be dishonest! How wonderfully consistent of you!
  #347  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:05 AM
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There’s no way in hell you would be as dismissive of the same pattern around a conservative evangelical white male Republican politician.
  #348  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:07 AM
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Nothing more than rumors and innuendo... and it's on Omar to disprove these rumors and innuendo? I wonder what the chances are that Slacker's feelings about Omar are related to his belief in the innate intellectual inferiority of black people? Not that he could even know if this were the case... if there's one thing Slacker has proven he lacks, again and again, it's the tiniest bit of self-awareness.
  #349  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:08 AM
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Once again, the only way to disagree with SlackerInc is to be dishonest! How wonderfully consistent of you!

No, itís also possible you could be honest but simply ignorant, obtuse, or stupid. And on occasion the disagreement may even arise because you are right and I am wrong. Quite rare though and you should treasure those incidences when they arise.
  #350  
Old 09-05-2019, 08:08 AM
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Thereís no way in hell you would be as dismissive of the same pattern around a conservative evangelical white male Republican politician.
So prove it. There have been tons of similar rumors about various evangelical white Republicans -- along with tons of such discussions on this board. Find one that I encouraged/took part in/fanned the flames of/accepted/etc. Shouldn't be that hard... or maybe you're just pulling crap out of your ass.
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