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  #401  
Old 09-05-2019, 02:20 PM
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I think lead exposure has a big role. But WTF does this have to do with Ilhan Omar? She’s obviously very intelligent.
  #402  
Old 09-05-2019, 02:55 PM
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I don’t know what Omar‘s own citizenship has to do with anything. If anyone has expressed any doubt that she is rightfully a US citizen, I missed it.
It applies to your hunch:

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My hunch is that he is actually not her brother, but that the reason she can’t disprove this is that doing so would require confessing to some other immigration-related malfeasance. (The Strib did find people who knew her ex-husband and they said he never mentioned being married.)
What I wanted to point out is that to get citizenship one's immigration steps are also checked, and more so now with a meddlesome administration as the Trump one. (As in going back to see if she faked something, chances are that she did not as per Snopes).

Hence, my point that even your hunch is weaker tea than the one about Omar's slur about her marriage with a relative.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-05-2019 at 02:58 PM.
  #403  
Old 09-05-2019, 03:16 PM
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And Sage Rat certainly is no fucking teacher.
Where can I find a fucking teacher?
  #404  
Old 09-05-2019, 03:28 PM
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Where can I find a fucking teacher?
Barney Miller.
  #405  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:24 PM
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It applies to your hunch:



What I wanted to point out is that to get citizenship one's immigration steps are also checked, and more so now with a meddlesome administration as the Trump one. (As in going back to see if she faked something, chances are that she did not as per Snopes).

Hence, my point that even your hunch is weaker tea than the one about Omar's slur about her marriage with a relative.

If she got paid to get someone a green card via marriage (the most common scenario even if not as exciting as an incestuous marriage) they would need to catch that at the time, not now. There would be nothing amiss with the paperwork.
  #406  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:37 PM
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If she got paid to get someone a green card via marriage
Did her (first legal) husband Ahmed Nur Said Elmi ever in fact receive, or even apply for, a green card for permanent residence in the US? Given that they were living together for three years and still officially married for another five or six, you'd think they'd have had ample time to cut that deal if such a deal existed.

Also, according to Omar Elmi is a UK citizen, so not really seeing why he'd be desperate enough for a US green card to enter into a loveless mariage de convenance for it.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-05-2019 at 05:38 PM.
  #407  
Old 09-05-2019, 06:02 PM
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If she got paid to get someone a green card via marriage (the most common scenario even if not as exciting as an incestuous marriage) they would need to catch that at the time, not now.
And this is inaccurate, they can and do investigate more nowadays.

https://www.aila.org/advo-media/issu...forts-by-uscis
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The Trump administration launched an office that focuses on identifying immigrants who are suspected of cheating to get their green cards or citizenship and seek to denaturalize these individuals. USCIS Director Francis Cissna announced that his agency is hiring several dozen lawyers and immigration officers to review these cases.

In September 2016, the DHS Office of the Inspector General (OIG) released a report finding that USCIS granted U.S. citizenship to at least 858 individuals ordered deported or removed under another identity when, during the naturalization process, their digital fingerprint records were not available. OIG recommends that ICE finish uploading into the digital repository the fingerprints it identified, and that DHS resolve these cases of naturalized citizens who may have been ineligible. Further, the report found that fingerprint records were missing from hundreds of thousands of cases for a variety of reasons.
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In a budget request for FY2019, the administration asked for $207.6 million to investigate 887 additional leads it expects to get into American citizens who may be vulnerable to denaturalization, and to review another 700,000 immigrant files.
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There would be nothing amiss with the paperwork.
[Spock]My density sensors are picking a reading captain..[/S]

Uh, actually it would be easy then to find that her public testimony does not match with what they could hypothetically find and they can investigate further and press charges. When no charges or accusations from USCIS are coming I can say your hunch is a bad one.
  #408  
Old 09-06-2019, 12:05 AM
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They would have to send agents out to investigate it, interview people and so on. The Strib already did that and was unable to find out, apparently, whether they were living together. (Still can’t see any reason why Omar won’t even answer that question.) But sure, I guess the FBI could have more resources in theory. But they also may be a little leery of investigating one of Trump’s political appointees. Remember, the FBI is not exactly his best friend.

I should add too that I don’t exactly think the shenanigans I suspect her of being up to are some kind of huge moral failing. When I was 19, I tried to get a friend to marry me so we would both be eligible for financial aid (we were not eligible due to our parents’ income, but neither of our parents were supporting us at the time). You might remember that my sense of that article was that there was something hinky about her marriage, but I wasn’t up in arms about it. My main point here is to push back against the protestations that the whole thing is some kind of wacky conspiracy theory. It looks to me like she probably did something technically illegal, but not heinous or even unethical. If she were a politician I liked, I would be perfectly content for the whole thing to fade away.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-06-2019 at 12:06 AM.
  #409  
Old 09-06-2019, 12:48 AM
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The Strib already did that and was unable to find out, apparently, whether they were living together. (Still can’t see any reason why Omar won’t even answer that question.)
You can't see why she wouldn't answer a question about her living arrangements ten years ago with an ex-husband that she's been separated from since 2011? How about because it's simply nobody else's business?

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I should add too that I don’t exactly think the shenanigans I suspect her of being up to are some kind of huge moral failing. When I was 19, I tried to get a friend to marry me so we would both be eligible for financial aid
If that's supposed to be some kind of analogy about the follies of youth, I think you've got Omar's timeline a bit wrong. She intended to (legally) marry her present husband Ahmed Hirsi (whom in her official statement she describes as "the father of my children and love of my life", which is actually kind of sweet) when she was 19 in 2002. She and Hirsi ended their (religiously but not legally sanctioned) form of marriage in 2008, when Omar was 25, and she legally married Elmi the next year. They separated in 2011 when she was 28, but didn't legally divorce till 2017. Omar and Hirsi reconciled in 2012 and legally married in 2018.

So Omar's married life with Elmi took place well into her mid-20s, when she'd been a US citizen for nearly a decade and was combining a career with her bachelor's degree studies. Not exactly an irresponsible crazy mixed-up kids situation. I'm not saying that Omar's personal life doesn't have some drama in it, but there doesn't seem to be any obvious reason for you to "suspect" her of being up to irresponsible "shenanigans" like your own dumb teenage notion of marrying for financial aid.

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Originally Posted by SlackerInc
You might remember that my sense of that article was that there was something hinky about her marriage, but I wasn’t up in arms about it. My main point here is to push back against the protestations that the whole thing is some kind of wacky conspiracy theory.
The "whole thing" at present is centered on the allegations that Omar married her own brother. Given that AFAICT nobody has so far presented even one shred of concrete evidence supporting those allegations, why shouldn't we regard them as "some kind of wacky conspiracy theory"?

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Originally Posted by SlackerInc
It looks to me like she probably did something technically illegal, but not heinous or even unethical.
It looks to me that unless you can produce some actual evidence that she did anything "technically illegal", then your speculations about what you imagine she "probably" did belong right back in your ass where you pulled them from.

Just because your unsupported accusations of Omar's having done something "hinky" or "technically illegal" are less lurid and salacious than the unsupported accusations of Omar's having married her brother doesn't mean that they're one whit more credible, in the absence of any actual evidence for either of them.

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Originally Posted by SlackerInc
If she were a politician I liked, I would be perfectly content for the whole thing to fade away.
But since she happens to be a politician you don't like, you're perfectly happy to keep stirring the shit-kettle for the conservatives, racists and Islamophobes who want to go on smearing her with scandalmongering even if they have absolutely zero actual evidence for it. Mighty principled of you, SlackerInc.
  #410  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:30 AM
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Stirring the shit-kettle isn’t just good for the right. I think it’s arguably even better for those of us Democrats who are trying to keep that wing of the party from gaining power and influence. It’s not exactly “Mr. Smith Goes to Washington” or even “The West Wing”, granted: but politics ain’t beanbag as they say. If there’s nothing there, she and her family have the power to make it go away. And please don’t come back with talk about how conspiracy loons will still make some tenuous claim about a coverup. Right now it’s in the realm of reasonable suspicion, and they could make it unreasonable (if in fact it is unreasonable, which I kinda doubt).

BTW, I wasn’t talking about the “follies of youth”. I think my idea to marry to get financial aid was a good one, and my friend was foolish to pass it up. She wanted her first marriage to be “real” and “special”, but to me that’s being needlessly sentimental.
  #411  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:43 AM
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It most assuredly is not "reasonable suspicion". It's bigoted nonsense exactly like the birther BS. And that crud hasn't gone away either. She is the one you are accusing (and, yes, you are accusing her) and thus the onus is on you to provide actual evidence of your assertion. The only evidence you have is that others have accused her. That's not actual evidence of anything she has done wrong.

Last edited by Monty; 09-06-2019 at 01:45 AM.
  #412  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:56 AM
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Whatever, we are just going round and round. I obviously don’t agree with your characterization but I stand behind what I already wrote several times upthread.
  #413  
Old 09-06-2019, 03:45 AM
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Yes, we know you're a stupid, islamophobic cunt, thank you for letting us know.
  #414  
Old 09-06-2019, 05:15 AM
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Whatever, we are just going round and round. I obviously don’t agree with your characterization but I stand behind what I already wrote several times upthread.

Nope. I'm consistent. I am doing as I always have done on this board: I am denoucning unfounded and baseless accusations. I am also decrying racism and other types of prejudice.

You? You're continuing to tout bigoted nonsense. Guess what that makes you.

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Yes, we know you're a stupid, islamophobic cunt, thank you for letting us know.

You got that right.
  #415  
Old 09-06-2019, 05:22 AM
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I think it’s arguably even better for those of us Democrats who are trying to keep that wing of the party from gaining power and influence.
"How do you do, fellow Democrats?"
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:24 AM
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I don't think it really matters why SlackerInc is persisting with this nonsense - maybe he hates blacks and Muslims, maybe he's trying to earn a merit badge in "JAQing off", maybe he had "post ludicrous nonsense on the Internet" pencilled in his calendar for the first week of September, or maybe he genuinely believes he's making a credible argument because he spends his spare time repeatedly slamming his own head in a car door.

Whatever the reason or motivation, the fact remains that every time it's pointed out that all he's got is "rumor and innuendo" (to quote m'learned colleague) and absolutely nothing in the way of actual evidence or a coherent argument, he simply doubles down or accuses us of being partisan hypocrites or Kellyanne Conway.

But it's still weak bullshit.
  #417  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:01 AM
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He just really doesn't like Ilhan Omar. He started two threads about her (on the same day).

I will be working to defeat Ilhan Omar in her next election, if she's still around

Ilhan Omar can fuck right off
  #418  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:15 PM
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If there’s nothing there, she and her family have the power to make it go away. And please don’t come back with talk about how conspiracy loons will still make some tenuous claim about a coverup.
Of course they will. Look at how the "birther" crazies kept demanding more and more evidence of Obama's US citizenship status. And slightly over half of Republicans STILL believe that Obama was born in Kenya. The idea that "if there's nothing there", a politician targeted by conspiracy theorists has "the power to make it go away" is the delusion of someone with his head firmly up his ass.

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Originally Posted by SlackerInc
BTW, I wasn’t talking about the “follies of youth”. I think my idea to marry to get financial aid was a good one, and my friend was foolish to pass it up. She wanted her first marriage to be “real” and “special”, but to me that’s being needlessly sentimental.
On the other hand, now she doesn't ever have to deal with the embarrassment of explaining why she chose for her first husband a guy with his head so firmly up his ass, so there's that.
  #419  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:23 PM
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I'm not your fucking student.
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And Sage Rat certainly is no fucking teacher.
Well if you've got free time to learn from someone else, go learn Somali, time yourselves, and report back when you're fluent how long it took you.
  #420  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:31 PM
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Well if you've got free time to learn from someone else, go learn Somali, time yourselves, and report back when you're fluent how long it took you.
I must be pretty dumb because this made no sense to me at all.
  #421  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:33 PM
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You either did not read the article, or are willfully misrepresenting it.

ETA: That was in response to Kimstu, who initially expressed deep skepticism of my memory of the article I had read in print and is now moving the goalposts as usual. But it doesn’t not apply to Steve.
Well, I guess you DO blow goats, since you have not denied it, and have not given any evidence to support your innocence.

Oh, and fuck that article, whatever it says or doesn't say.
  #422  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:38 PM
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Well if you've got free time to learn from someone else, go learn Somali, time yourselves, and report back when you're fluent how long it took you.
You got anything other than fallacy?
  #423  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:46 PM
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I must be pretty dumb because this made no sense to me at all.
As I've said, my issue is with denialism. Whether the evidence against Omar is good or even meaningful aside, a great number of people have simply said that it's all fake and manufactured, when we're talking about screenshots of people writing in Somali and a bunch of other stuff that you can independently verify like that Omar's dad goes by two different names. That is stupid, flat out.

The right-wing idiots who produced this video did not learn Somali and learn to create Deep Fake images beyond my ability to detect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnVZ6tXAJ_U

I do not stand by any assertion that Omar is guilty. There is a very large and open realm for her to be completely innocent on all levels.

But, again, if your assertion is that the other side has no evidence and that all their screenshots are faked, and you refuse to prove that assertion then you need some schooling. And, as also said, there are specific steps which anyone here could take to try and prove or disprove that assertion. It may well be that the right-wing nuts learned Somali or found a crazy right-wing Somali to help them doctor up some images. It may well be that they know some expert graphic artist and photoshopper who, for whatever reason, they've declined to use in any other role to make their website look similarly professional and quality; they only want to use that person to falsify materials. It is perhaps at the very edge of being within the bounds of reality that the materials could be faked. But, if someone wants to make that assertion, they need to prove it. It's a large assertion. Too large to make without proof.

It is far more likely, particularly given that the evidence they provide is not conclusive of anything, that those are just screenshots of things they actually saw. And as said, I have already independently verified that at least some of it is in fact true. I was unable to discover anything which they said that did not check out and I am not the only person here with a mouse and a keyboard.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-06-2019 at 01:49 PM.
  #424  
Old 09-06-2019, 01:52 PM
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Well if you've got free time to learn from someone else, go learn Somali, time yourselves, and report back when you're fluent how long it took you.
Yet again you're asking me to do your work for you.

I'm not going to do your work for you because I'm not your research assistant, student, or lackey. If you think there is value to someone learning Somali to read critically important facebook posts, or something, then have at it. I hear Rosetta Stone is really good.
  #425  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:01 PM
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Yet again you're asking me to do your work for you.

I'm not going to do your work for you because I'm not your research assistant, student, or lackey. If you think there is value to someone learning Somali to read critically important facebook posts, or something, then have at it. I hear Rosetta Stone is really good.
I did the work. I didn't care what the result turned out to be.

Do you not want to do the same because it's not your job or because you feel safer having chosen to deny anything that could be used against Omar Ilhan could possibly be real? Do you even know what exists or any of it would actually mean pro or con of Omar? Do you know that you're not denying the existence of materials that could well exonerate Omar, simply because you're assuming that a bunch of right-wing nutballs would only be smart enough to post something if it conclusively fit their narrative?
  #426  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:11 PM
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It's not my job to defend Omar. I, like 99% of Americans, didn't know who this lady was 12 months ago, and I don't care who she married, or divorced or whatever. She's not my representative, and I didn't vote for her.

If she did something wrong, it's up to the people who claim she did something wrong to prove she did something wrong. That's how these things work. I don't see why it should be any different because some assholes made a video.
  #427  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:18 PM
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It's not my job to defend Omar. I, like 99% of Americans, didn't know who this lady was 12 months ago, and I don't care who she married, or divorced or whatever. She's not my representative, and I didn't vote for her.

If she did something wrong, it's up to the people who claim she did something wrong to prove she did something wrong. That's how these things work. I don't see why it should be any different because some assholes made a video.
You did a great job of summing up my opinion as well. I am not out to get her, nor do I want to defend her, she’s a politician doing politician stuff. I don’t care what rumors there are about her, or how (or if) she responds to those rumors. If someone proves she did something scandalous I’ll care but until then, whatever.

Last edited by Atamasama; 09-06-2019 at 02:20 PM.
  #428  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:22 PM
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I did the work. I didn't care what the result turned out to be.

Do you not want to do the same because it's not your job or because you feel safer having chosen to deny anything that could be used against Omar Ilhan could possibly be real? Do you even know what exists or any of it would actually mean pro or con of Omar? Do you know that you're not denying the existence of materials that could well exonerate Omar, simply because you're assuming that a bunch of right-wing nutballs would only be smart enough to post something if it conclusively fit their narrative?
I have the same curiosity about this as I do about claims of ancient pictograms about space travel. Sure, it'd be interesting if the Egyptians met aliens. But I'm not going to spend any significant effort on this until there's actually real evidence that the Egyptians met space aliens.
  #429  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:23 PM
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{...} create Deep Fake images beyond my ability to detect: {...}
Umm, when was it established that you had any ability to detect 'fake images', let alone sufficient expertise to decide that these images are or are not faked?

CMC fnord!
  #430  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:24 PM
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He can tell by some of the pixels and from having seen quite a few Deep Fakes in his time.
  #431  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:35 PM
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Hey everybody, how's things? I'm new to this conspiracy, or alleged crime, or whatever it is. Can anyone point me to a sane, credible source where I can review the allegations and evidence for them? That'd be great, I appreciate it!
(Concisely laid out would be a real plus!)

Last edited by bobot; 09-06-2019 at 02:37 PM.
  #432  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:39 PM
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Yeah, I've never seen a picture on the internet that wasn't CGI.

CMC fnord!
  #433  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:41 PM
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It's not my job to defend Omar. I, like 99% of Americans, didn't know who this lady was 12 months ago, and I don't care who she married, or divorced or whatever. She's not my representative, and I didn't vote for her.
I don't care either except that people kept hassling me in other threads because I actually bothered to double-check what the right-wingers had written and perform an independent review of it.

I'm here because it keeps them from polluting the other threads.

If you don't care and people aren't hassling you, and yet you're posting in the topic and following the topic, you might want to review the statement that you don't care.
  #434  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:44 PM
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Hey everybody, how's things? I'm new to this conspiracy, or alleged crime, or whatever it is. Can anyone point me to a sane, credible source where I can review the allegations and evidence for them? That'd be great, I appreciate it!
(Concisely laid out would be a real plus!)
Do you want the evidence and narrative of "the crime" or do you just want to know what all evidence exists, free of narrative, so you can decide what meaning there is liable to be from it before hearing what the accusation is? (For the record, I recommend the latter.)
  #435  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:49 PM
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I have the same curiosity about this as I do about claims of ancient pictograms about space travel. Sure, it'd be interesting if the Egyptians met aliens. But I'm not going to spend any significant effort on this until there's actually real evidence that the Egyptians met space aliens.
It's due to this kind of lack of curiosity that we'll never discover Atlantis.
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  #436  
Old 09-06-2019, 02:55 PM
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Umm, when was it established that you had any ability to detect 'fake images', let alone sufficient expertise to decide that these images are or are not faked?

CMC fnord!
I'm a software developer who has done UI development working with professional graphic artists and redlines. I have spent time playing around with lighting and shading in 3D rendering applications to see what it takes to try and create something photorealistic. I also have a professional interest in AI and evidentiary security. I'm also a trained artist with a hobby of making short films. As a kid, I took apart and hand-made steroscopic images out of interest in perspective. As an artist, I can draw figures in 3-point perspective freehand without guides - not as well as some but much better than most artists since they tend to not be particularly technical.

That all said, I accept that I have neither taken nor passed any test of having any specific ability to detect composite images. I will gladly take one for you, if you are able to find one.
  #437  
Old 09-06-2019, 03:10 PM
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you might want to review the statement that you don't care.
I don't care about her personal life.

I do care that our society allows unfounded accusations to be repeated ad nauseum, by supposedly legitimate media outlets, without demanding that the people making the accusation pony up proof. I had to suffer through watching a man be hounded by ridiculous claims that even my mother wound up saying "I dunno, maybe there's something there..." years after he not only produced legal proof of his birth, but had the director of a State's vital records department publicly certify that the proof was legitimate. All because the media outlet she preferred kept talking about as though there existed a shred of proof that it was correct. There was never a shred of proof that the claim was right, and the fuckers repeated the claim for the better part of a decade.
  #438  
Old 09-06-2019, 03:21 PM
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I'm a software developer who has done UI development working with professional graphic artists and redlines. I have spent time playing around with lighting and shading in 3D rendering applications to see what it takes to try and create something photorealistic. I also have a professional interest in AI and evidentiary security. I'm also a trained artist with a hobby of making short films. As a kid, I took apart and hand-made steroscopic images out of interest in perspective. As an artist, I can draw figures in 3-point perspective freehand without guides - not as well as some but much better than most artists since they tend to not be particularly technical.

That all said, I accept that I have neither taken nor passed any test of having any specific ability to detect composite images. I will gladly take one for you, if you are able to find one.
About the imaging and 3d, how nice, so do I. But there is not even a need to look at the images until we do get the originals at full resolution. As I have seen the reports of the origin of this nonsense, it is cleat that the source of the original images depends on the anonymous source that posted that in anti media. So where are the sources? The strong implication here is a simple one: what is that guy trying to hide?

Perhaps what he was known all along to be.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-th...raced-by-trump
Quote:
In the thread, which has since been deleted from Somali Spot but remains online elsewhere, AbdiJohnson claimed that Ahmed Nur Said Elmi, from whom Omar was then separated, was secretly her brother. Omar had married Elmi, the anonymous poster claimed, in an attempt to make it easier for him to enter the United States.

“What’s even more shocking is that Ahmed Nur Said Elmi is actually her brother,” wrote the user, whose account on Somali Spot has since gone inactive.

AbdiJohnson never provided any evidence for his claim, and searches of Somali Spot posts show that the user was notorious on the site as a troll known for making up claims to rile up the site’s other members.
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Old 09-06-2019, 03:31 PM
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Finding the proper source or originals BTW is very similar to the insistence of appraisers in the show Antiques Roadshow. As soon as a piece on the chain of proper ownership for an item is missing the appraisers dismiss the item or reduce the item in value a lot, because chances are: the item is fraudulent or obtained illegally.
  #440  
Old 09-06-2019, 03:55 PM
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About the imaging and 3d, how nice, so do I. But there is not even a need to look at the images until we do get the originals at full resolution. As I have seen the reports of the origin of this nonsense, it is cleat that the source of the original images depends on the anonymous source that posted that in anti media. So where are the sources? The strong implication here is a simple one: what is that guy trying to hide?

Perhaps what he was known all along to be.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-th...raced-by-trump
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...&postcount=199
  #441  
Old 09-06-2019, 03:58 PM
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Hey everybody, how's things? I'm new to this conspiracy, or alleged crime, or whatever it is. Can anyone point me to a sane, credible source where I can review the allegations and evidence for them? That'd be great, I appreciate it!
(Concisely laid out would be a real plus!)

http://m.startribune.com/new-documen...age/511681362/

This is an article from the Minneapolis Star Tribune, the newspaper of record in Omar’s district and certainly a sane and credible source: as I noted upthread they have won 6 Pulitzer Prizes, including two as recently as 2013.


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Oh, and fuck that article, whatever it says or doesn't say.

Really taking that “fighting ignorance” credo to heart, eh?


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He just really doesn't like Ilhan Omar. He started two threads about her (on the same day).

I will be working to defeat Ilhan Omar in her next election, if she's still around

Ilhan Omar can fuck right off

Ding ding ding!


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Of course they will. Look at how the "birther" crazies kept demanding more and more evidence of Obama's US citizenship status.

I never said they wouldn’t! Did you really miss my point that badly? I stated it pretty clearly: the crazies well never give up regardless of what evidence is proffered, but people who could go either way will no longer listen to the crazies once evidence is provided to definitively refute an allegation.
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Old 09-06-2019, 04:30 PM
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I stated it pretty clearly: the crazies well never give up regardless of what evidence is proffered, but people who could go either way will no longer listen to the crazies once evidence is provided to definitively refute an allegation.
That's what you call "making it go away"? Not so much.

In any case, why would supposedly sensible people be "listening to the crazies" in the first place, if the crazies have not managed to provide any evidence in support of their allegations? Gossiping about what hypothetical "hinkiness" in a politician's personal life might be true even if nobody's come up with any evidence that it is true is the behavior of shallow-minded scandalmongers, not sensible people.

When shallow-minded scandalmongers demand that the targets of scandal "refute" completely unsupported allegations, they generally just want to keep the shitkettle bubbling, not to have the issue definitively settled. The makers of the unsupported allegations will never concede that the issue is definitively settled if it involves admitting their allegations turned out to be untrue.
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Old 09-06-2019, 04:36 PM
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Oh, and by the way:

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Stirring the shit-kettle isn’t just good for the right. I think it’s arguably even better for those of us Democrats who are trying to keep that wing of the party from gaining power and influence.
Not if "those of you Democrats" are trying to get anyone to actually respect your position. "Let's attract more people to moderate centrist liberal-Democrat views by demonstrating that moderate centrist liberal Democrats are manipulative shitheels encouraging unsupported scandalmongering about left-wing progressive Democrats in order to damage their reputation and influence in the party!" Like I said, how principled of you.

Last edited by Kimstu; 09-06-2019 at 04:36 PM.
  #444  
Old 09-06-2019, 04:36 PM
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You lost me at the "Republican Troll". You are really dumb about not knowing that trolling does happen world wide and it is not an exclusive republican thing?

And all of what you posted there does not counter what I said about the chain of evidence, produce the original sources and full resolution images or shut up.
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Old 09-06-2019, 09:42 PM
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You lost me at the "Republican Troll". You are really dumb about not knowing that trolling does happen world wide and it is not an exclusive republican thing?
It would not bother me if you read what I wrote to say "political troll" or some other nomenclature where I wrote "Republican troll". If we're both looking at a picture of a blue Jeep and I tell you, "That is a blue Jeep, not orange", and you tell me, "Actually, they said that it was chartreuse", then the Jeep is still blue. I don't really care what the mostly technically accurate nomenclature is for what he isn't. Choose whatever term you feel fits best.

Quote:
And all of what you posted there does not counter what I said about the chain of evidence, produce the original sources and full resolution images or shut up.
You would contend that, at a higher resolution, the screenshots of people swapping messages written in Somali would switch over to being in English? I am personally unaware of that compression technique and question its value to the tech community.

I will also note that usually the best way to detect a fake is through inconsistent lighting and shadows. If the sun is on the left and the shadow is falling to the left, regardless of whatever resolution you're at, that picture is still photomanipulated.

I'll also note that if you download an image and it is a full screen, high res picture which has clear signs of photomanipulation, then you have successfully identified a fake. Positing that the images have all been down-rezzed and re-compressed, a priori of actually looking, is not evidence that the images were faked. It's just avoiding the topic. Likewise, I could decide that the local supermarket would never carry eggs and thereby declare that it's a waste of time to even go look and thereby be a lazy asshole who wants to get out of having to cook breakfast. My decision that the store has no eggs has no bearing on the reality.

There is a difference between proving that an image is faked and handwaving. The handwaver may well turn out to have been correct, but he was still engaging in handwaving.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-06-2019 at 09:47 PM.
  #446  
Old 09-06-2019, 11:19 PM
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It would not bother me if you read what I wrote to say "political troll" or some other nomenclature where I wrote "Republican troll". If we're both looking at a picture of a blue Jeep and I tell you, "That is a blue Jeep, not orange", and you tell me, "Actually, they said that it was chartreuse", then the Jeep is still blue. I don't really care what the mostly technically accurate nomenclature is for what he isn't. Choose whatever term you feel fits best.
No term fits, lack of original images or revealed sources testifying where they got the images is not there, you were trolled in many languages.

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You would contend that, at a higher resolution, the screenshots of people swapping messages written in Somali would switch over to being in English? I am personally unaware of that compression technique and question its value to the tech community.
You are really deluded, I'm not referring to screenshots of internet posts, I'm talking about the original images and sources of them who are willing to come forward to establish their bona fides.

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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
I will also note that usually the best way to detect a fake is through inconsistent lighting and shadows. If the sun is on the left and the shadow is falling to the left, regardless of whatever resolution you're at, that picture is still photomanipulated.
Stop teaching grandma to suck eggs, and that is not the requested information.

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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
I'll also note that if you download an image and it is a full screen, high res picture which has clear signs of photomanipulation, then you have successfully identified a fake. Positing that the images have all been down-rezzed and re-compressed, a priori of actually looking, is not evidence that the images were faked. It's just avoiding the topic. Likewise, I could decide that the local supermarket would never carry eggs and thereby declare that it's a waste of time to even go look and thereby be a lazy asshole who wants to get out of having to cook breakfast. My decision that the store has no eggs has no bearing on the reality.
More evidence about your delusion. You still think that I'm looking for original Facebook posts you can get images in the posts, but those are not the original images (If you can not get this I do doubt that you have proper knowledge of how images are processed and the need for originals with the people who took them available to testify), I'm referring to the original pictures that a person who took them can produce and after revealing who they are we can establish how trustworthy they are.

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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
There is a difference between proving that an image is faked and handwaving. The handwaver may well turn out to have been correct, but he was still engaging in handwaving.
And that is coming from you really, if you can not see the difference between an internet post with an image and an original image with a person who has knowledge and possession of that original, one can not even begin to do any proper research or vetting, you might as well believe in the moon hoax were the ones that fell for the hoax denied also that checking the original images was needed when the hoaxers relied on compressed images full of artifacts to claim that there were UFO's or other nonsense there.

Remember too that there is a reason why the chain of possession is very, very important to establish how reliable or valuable an item is.

https://www.pbs.org/video/antiques-r...l-photographs/

https://www.pbs.org/video/antiques-r...ms-photograph/

While modern examples are digital, one can still demonstrate that they have original images by showing the device the image was taken, the time stamp, signatures or the usual higher resolution an image has before it is usually reduced in quality for a post on the internet.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-06-2019 at 11:23 PM.
  #447  
Old 09-07-2019, 12:05 AM
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No term fits, lack of original images or revealed sources testifying where they got the images is not there, you were trolled in many languages.
I fail to see how you just switched topic from AhbdiJohnson to the topic of photomanipulation. While he did post a couple of pictures of the two of them in college together, the grand majority of what he posted were links and descriptions of what could be found at those links.

He says, for example, that Omar's dad has a second name and links to Facebook to demonstrate it. You have a mouse and keyboard. If you do not believe that her dad has a second name, you are completely capable of traversing to the man's Facebook account.

https://m.facebook.com/nur.said.3386?fref=nf

You might even look at the URL.

Quote:
More evidence about your delusion. You still think that I'm looking for original Facebook posts you can get images in the posts, but those are not the original images (If you can not get this I do doubt that you have proper knowledge of how images are processed and the need for originals with the people who took them available to testify), I'm referring to the original pictures that a person who took them can produce and after revealing who they are we can establish how trustworthy they are.
My statement that Omar appeared likely to be guilty of something is based on things that I was able to independently verify. I stated what those things were. Everyone is free to repeat what I did and they will find the things that I said are there, assuming that they have not been deleted.

I cannot verify the images, ergo, I cautioned about how much credence to given if using them and said that I could not independently verify them.

It is, in theory, possible for the images to be proven to be falsified. If they are overly compressed or otherwise mauled than, yes, it won't be possible but you would have to try in order to make the determination. Nothing that you have said negates. I have not claimed that any nor every image can be proved to have been falsified.

If I can't prove that the images are genuine and you can't prove that they're faked, then they are exactly as I have described: "I cannot independently verify the substance of what these images are said to contain."

Now if I say that and the response that I am given is, "Those images are falsified.", when I have not rested anything on the images, then I am of the opinion that that person has neither read what I have written nor actually taken any look at jack doodle, let alone having any place to declare that something was falsified.

And as the person who is making the greater claim: "That is falsified" Where I made the lesser claim: "I cannot independently verify the content of those images." I feel comfortable saying to the other person, "You are a lazy asshole, suffering from denialism who cannot even read simple statements like 'There is wide open room for Omar to be innocent of everything'. You need to get your head out of your ass and either accept that there is such a thing as evidence in the world which is not conclusive of anything, there is evidence in the world of questionable provenance, and in that light it is possible for there to be a wide spectrum of explanations. But any hypothetical must at least explain the evidence which we can be certain of. And if you want to claim that a particular piece of questionable evidence is distinctly false, then you need to prove that claim. If you cannot, than you have to live with, 'It is of questionable provenance and cannot be independently verified.' You may hate that, but suck it up and learn to be an adult."
  #448  
Old 09-07-2019, 12:30 AM
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I fail to see how you just switched topic from AhbdiJohnson to the topic of photomanipulation. While he did post a couple of pictures of the two of them in college together, the grand majority of what he posted were links and descriptions of what could be found at those links.

He says, for example, that Omar's dad has a second name and links to Facebook to demonstrate it. You have a mouse and keyboard. If you do not believe that her dad has a second name, you are completely capable of traversing to the man's Facebook account.

https://m.facebook.com/nur.said.3386?fref=nf

You might even look at the URL.


My statement that Omar appeared likely to be guilty of something is based on things that I was able to independently verify. I stated what those things were. Everyone is free to repeat what I did and they will find the things that I said are there, assuming that they have not been deleted.

I cannot verify the images, ergo, I cautioned about how much credence to given if using them and said that I could not independently verify them.

It is, in theory, possible for the images to be proven to be falsified. If they are overly compressed or otherwise mauled than, yes, it won't be possible but you would have to try in order to make the determination. Nothing that you have said negates. I have not claimed that any nor every image can be proved to have been falsified.

If I can't prove that the images are genuine and you can't prove that they're faked, then they are exactly as I have described: "I cannot independently verify the substance of what these images are said to contain."

Now if I say that and the response that I am given is, "Those images are falsified.", when I have not rested anything on the images, then I am of the opinion that that person has neither read what I have written nor actually taken any look at jack doodle, let alone having any place to declare that something was falsified.
That is nice, nowhere I did say that they were falsified, only that to become evidence they need to be confirmed in context and with the testimony of the persons who took the original images. As one example of the Buffalo Bill images in the Antiques Roadshow shows, if there was no person claiming ownership and testifying about the origins of the pictures there would be no appraisal at all. And this is what we got now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
And as the person who is making the greater claim: "That is falsified" Where I made the lesser claim: "I cannot independently verify the content of those images." I feel comfortable saying to the other person, "You are a lazy asshole, suffering from denialism who cannot even read simple statements like 'There is wide open room for Omar to be innocent of everything'. You need to get your head out of your ass and either accept that there is such a thing as evidence in the world which is not conclusive of anything, there is evidence in the world of questionable provenance, and in that light it is possible for there to be a wide spectrum of explanations. But any hypothetical must at least explain the evidence which we can be certain of. And if you want to claim that a particular piece of questionable evidence is distinctly false, then you need to prove that claim. If you cannot, than you have to live with, 'It is of questionable provenance and cannot be independently verified.' You may hate that, but suck it up and learn to be an adult."
Let's see, can you as an adult go to the Antiques Road show and use copies of a post on the internet and demand that an appraiser declare you have a real Rembrandt? Would they give even you the time of the day?

What we have seen from you is that you would behave like a little kid indeed and demand at least candy from the appraisers, but it is more likely that the police will be taking your family from the premises and not appearing in the show at all.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-07-2019 at 12:33 AM.
  #449  
Old 09-07-2019, 12:40 AM
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That is nice, nowhere I did say that they were falsified
Great, then why are you complaining? If you did not make the claim and I didn't make the claim, then move on.

Others did make the claim. I have provided information for how one can, in theory, make an attempt to prove his claim. Yes, they will likely fail.

Your information about the Antique Roadshow aside, if I give you a picture of myself standing on the surface of the sun, it is a falsified image. You can argue otherwise, but impossible things are impossible, and particularly when there is no chain of evidence nor documentary record for that image.

I do understand your point, but you are being silly and talking about proof not disproof.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-07-2019 at 12:41 AM.
  #450  
Old 09-07-2019, 12:50 AM
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Great, then why are you complaining? If you did not make the claim and I didn't make the claim, then move on.
That is what you need to do.

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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Others did make the claim. I have provided information for how one can, in theory, make an attempt to prove his claim. Yes, they will likely fail.
They already did fail. The longer the anonymous ones that made the claim on the internet don't come forward with how they came with the images and the dubious interpretations of them, the more one has to dismiss their "evidence"


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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Your information about the Antique Roadshow aside, if I give you a picture of myself standing on the surface of the sun, it is a falsified image. You can argue otherwise, but impossible things are impossible, and particularly when there is no chain of evidence nor documentary record for that image.

I do understand your point, but you are being silly and talking about proof not disproof.
No, you are being a willful ignorant that is spreading a conspiracy with even less evidence than the moon hoax. In this day and age, direct testimony from the ones that took the pictures and finding the originals is crucial, that they are hiding now does put the extreme burden on the accusers, not the accused. The process that a group like Antiques Road show does apply to give value to images and other items is a very good explanation of how inadequate and ridiculous is to demand that we give any attention to the sorry "evidence" presented by you and others so far.

And you are the one still acting like a child.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-07-2019 at 12:54 AM.
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