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  #151  
Old 10-26-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post


I have supported better background checks repeatedly on this board, not to mention this very thread.

And yes, there are no background checks that would stop guys like the Las vegas shooter.

and, how would they know he tipped them off?

Finally what has this to do with the OP?
So you support making things more difficult for law abiding gun owners? Cool.
If we knew who bought what weapons, we might be able to pay a visit on someone with a suspicious pattern. Data analytics would be good for this. That wouldn't prevent all shootings, but it could help.
How would they know someone tipped the cops off? The tipster's extra cash. Plus, it is hard enough to get people to speak up after real crimes. I don't think you're going to have a lot of success in getting to people to rat on members of their community who have lots of guns. It's an impractical solution. After all, they could rat for free with less risk of being suspected. Are they? Not that I've heard.
  #152  
Old 10-26-2019, 02:39 PM
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So you support making things more difficult for law abiding gun owners? Cool.
If we knew who bought what weapons, we might be able to pay a visit on someone with a suspicious pattern. Data analytics would be good for this. That wouldn't prevent all shootings, but it could help....
No, not really.

No, not really, very doubtful.
  #153  
Old 10-26-2019, 04:19 PM
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So, you are wrong there, now, perhaps we can get back to the OP?
No. I'm talking to my friend XT now, and our side discussion doesn't prevent your own. Go away, leave us alone and stop junior modding.

(I already said all there was to be said about the OP in post #4 anyway)
  #154  
Old 10-26-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
Post 55 by k9bfriender, I replied to him and Cheesesteak post 58.

So, you are wrong there, now, perhaps we can get back to the OP?
Solutions and possible solutions that you vehemently oppose do not automatically become "off-topic".

Last edited by Czarcasm; 10-26-2019 at 06:01 PM.
  #155  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:38 AM
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Well, I like where you are going but in CA, they did a nasty trick with "assault weapons"- they required you to register them. Ok, sure. But then several sheriffs dept ran out of the forms, and said without the form, you could not register. BUT they said, they would give you a extension until they got the forms back in. Fair. But then SURPRISE!! they then said that wrong. So, many gun owners couldn't legally register their guns.

The second part is good.

How about starting it as $1000 bounty for a tip leading to a conviction of a felon with a gun?
I don't think you would ever get a conviction for a violation that arose out of a sheriff running out of the legally necessary forms. I think it would also violate the constitution.
  #156  
Old 10-29-2019, 11:39 AM
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(emphasis mine)
Where did I say anything of the sort ? I simply said that making the guns go *poof* could only have a strictly positive effect on suicide rates by removing a method that is fairly common (and VERY effective) when you look at people who suddenly decide to kill themselves. At which point would-be suicides have to look into methods that require more effort, more time, more travel, more planning, which might fail hilariously (like my ex-brother in law, who tried to hang himself from a tree, broke the branch which then hit him on the head and KOd him for 40 minutes at which point he drove himself to hospital and counseling. Which is a tragic story really but come on, you gotta laugh)... all of which is time than can be used, by them to think about other options besides suicide or simply have their untenable emotions disappear, and by others to hopefully notice, help, talk, be there.
Sorry, missed this earlier. Not sure what you said or didn't say as I've lost track of the original conversation, but I agree with you...if you could magically make guns go away, it would have a short term effect...possibly even a medium term effect...on suicide deaths using guns. No doubt about it, IMHO. I doubt it would save all, but there would be a non-zero number of folks who, not having a gun, would not commit suicide when they wanted too, and a percentage of those folks could and almost certainly would talk to someone or maybe just move past the darker period and decide, in the end, not to commit suicide after all.

Having done that, however, I think that in a fairly short time the numbers would start to rebalance, as you haven't really addressed anything but magically taking away a method. I know you are saying we should magic away the guns AND enhance suicide prevention programs and all the rest, and that's all great and would certainly help, but just taking away guns would only have a small, short term effect IMHO. Eventually, people would simply switch to other means readily available to commit suicide. Clearly, in countries with heavy gun bans or restrictions they find ways that are superior to the US wrt deaths from suicide per 100K. And even in the gun laden US, the majority of suicides are from other methods than guns.

The thing is, in reality, you can't magic away the guns, so you get into whether it would be practical, feasible or even meaningful wrt suicides as well as just general gun deaths (murders, accidents, etc) for any specific and actually do-able sort of regulation that stays within the confines of the 2nd Amendment. In the end, by allowing guns and having a protected right, Americans basically accept that people WILL die due to this. It's up to the citizens to decide if the cost in lives is worth the right and ability of common citizens to keep and bear firearms. Just like we make that calculation with other things that WILL kill a non-zero number of citizens. To me, the cost is similar to many things our society allows. That said, as with those other things we allow that will kill citizens, mitigation is always a good thing, if it can be done within the confines of the law and Constitution. IF that mitigation is actually useful and helpful and would make any sort of difference, I think it's worth looking into.
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  #157  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:04 PM
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So if there were suicide booths on every corner, there would be no change in the suicide rate. Everyone who thinks about committing suicide already have all the tools they need.
  #158  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:05 PM
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So if there were suicide booths on every corner, there would be no change in the suicide rate. Everyone who thinks about committing suicide already have all the tools they need.
With straw on sale, everyone gets a strawman. You get a strawman, and you get a strawman, and you get a strawman! WOOHOO!!
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  #159  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:18 PM
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How is that a strawman? You are literally saying the ease of use and accessibility of suicide tools doesn't matter. Or for long, I assume you think suicide rates would bump up but then settle into pre-suicide booth levels.

Last edited by CarnalK; 10-29-2019 at 12:20 PM.
  #160  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:32 PM
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How is that a strawman? You are literally saying the ease of use and accessibility of suicide tools doesn't matter. Or for long, I assume you think suicide rates would bump up but then settle into pre-suicide booth levels.
Because that's not what you said, which was about suicide booths and other bullshit that had nothing to do with my own post. In addition, I specifically said that it WOULD have an effect, especially in the short and medium term. Thus, it's a strawman. In fact, it's the definition of strawman.

Suicide, and specifically suicide rate has a lot of factors. Method is only one of them, and, pretty obviously, varies from country to country, region to region, and over time in the same country or region. Methods go out of favor, or come into favor, or are used more or less. But the method isn't what makes the base rate.

So, in this case, magically taking away all guns will have an impact...as I acknowledged, despite your strawman. But over time, people will just use other methods...as they do in other countries that ban or heavily restrict guns. Eventually, if nothing else changes, the rate will pretty much go back to, or close to, the original baseline for a country, which itself varies over time. Funded programs that target people who are potential suicides are going to have a way bigger impact, especially in the long term than targeting a method of suicide and taking that out of use.

In any case, we've seriously strayed away from the topic of the thread, but I didn't see Kobal2's reply until the thread popped back up earlier so figured I'd reply to say that I generally agree it would have an effect.
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  #161  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:42 PM
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Sorry, missed this earlier. Not sure what you said or didn't say as I've lost track of the original conversation, but I agree with you...if you could magically make guns go away, it would have a short term effect...possibly even a medium term effect...on suicide deaths using guns. No doubt about it, IMHO. I doubt it would save all, but there would be a non-zero number of folks who, not having a gun, would not commit suicide when they wanted too, and a percentage of those folks could and almost certainly would talk to someone or maybe just move past the darker period and decide, in the end, not to commit suicide after all.

Having done that, however, I think that in a fairly short time the numbers would start to rebalance, as you haven't really addressed anything but magically taking away a method. I know you are saying we should magic away the guns AND enhance suicide prevention programs and all the rest, and that's all great and would certainly help, but just taking away guns would only have a small, short term effect IMHO. Eventually, people would simply switch to other means readily available to commit suicide. Clearly, in countries with heavy gun bans or restrictions they find ways that are superior to the US wrt deaths from suicide per 100K. And even in the gun laden US, the majority of suicides are from other methods than guns.

The thing is, in reality, you can't magic away the guns, so you get into whether it would be practical, feasible or even meaningful wrt suicides as well as just general gun deaths (murders, accidents, etc) for any specific and actually do-able sort of regulation that stays within the confines of the 2nd Amendment. In the end, by allowing guns and having a protected right, Americans basically accept that people WILL die due to this. It's up to the citizens to decide if the cost in lives is worth the right and ability of common citizens to keep and bear firearms. Just like we make that calculation with other things that WILL kill a non-zero number of citizens. To me, the cost is similar to many things our society allows. That said, as with those other things we allow that will kill citizens, mitigation is always a good thing, if it can be done within the confines of the law and Constitution. IF that mitigation is actually useful and helpful and would make any sort of difference, I think it's worth looking into.
Sounds about correct, give or take. And I do agree that ultimately any gun control law is ultimately going to boil down to "Is the gunhaving worth the cost ?". Which most people outside the US think you guys are really nuts about the cost analysis, but you do you.

That said, and perhaps paradoxically, I really don't reckon your main problem with gun control lies with the 2nd. It's vague and weirdly worded enough that you could take a crowbar to it any which way ; and in fact you have since e.g. fully automatic weapons have been federally banned before and a number of weapons are very heavily tracked and controlled to this day (AFVs, high explosives, etc...). So there's clearly precedent for 'nfringin' ; it's just a matter of votes and support.

To my mind, the real-er hurdle lies with the simple nature of y'alls federation. That is to say, it's almost tautological that any city's, county's or even state's gun control measures is utterly pointless since anybody can just drive a truck over the stateline, fill 'er up with guns and ammo then Smokey & the Bandit it up back home without very much hassle. Which, BTW, is what makes gun nut arguments like "See ? D.C. has super stringent gun regulations and they still have tons of gun murders, CHECKMATE gun grabbers !" silly and specious. No, for any gun control measure to ever have a chance to work it has to be enabled and enforced at the federal level ; but then you run into the giant problem of the "Nuh uh, STATE'S RIGHTS !" brigade and getting reluctant States to enforce it properly ; and I wish you guys good luck with that shit.
  #162  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:47 PM
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To my mind, the real-er hurdle lies with the simple nature of y'alls federation.
That is always the ultimate case. It's up to the voters and society to determine if the perceived cost to benefit is worth it. It's how all societies judge risk and cost balanced against what they want/need. In other countries, other calculations are made. Often, what they allow causes as many or more deaths than the same thing in the US because of how societies accept risk or cost (in lives) weighed against what the citizens want.

In the US the majority of citizens still feel that a personal right to keep and bear arms is something they want, and thus the perceived benefit of that outweighs the cost in lives, be they from suicide or from murder or accident, etc. Until and unless that changes, it's what we gots.
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  #163  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:48 PM
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Because that's not what you said, which was about suicide booths and other bullshit that had nothing to do with my own post. In addition, I specifically said that it WOULD have an effect, especially in the short and medium term. Thus, it's a strawman. In fact, it's the definition of strawman.

Suicide, and specifically suicide rate has a lot of factors. Method is only one of them, and, pretty obviously, varies from country to country, region to region, and over time in the same country or region. Methods go out of favor, or come into favor, or are used more or less. But the method isn't what makes the base rate.
Who cares about the base rate? And you are repeating what I apparently wrongly strawmanned: you don't think suicide booths would have a long term effect on suicide rates.
  #164  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:10 PM
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I don't think you would ever get a conviction for a violation that arose out of a sheriff running out of the legally necessary forms. I think it would also violate the constitution.
I dunno if they convicted anyone, but they indicted them and confiscated the guns. So lawyer fees, bail fees, etc.
  #165  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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Solutions and possible solutions that you vehemently oppose do not automatically become "off-topic".
No, but if you dont respect the Op they do.
  #166  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:13 PM
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How is that a strawman? You are literally saying the ease of use and accessibility of suicide tools doesn't matter. Or for long, I assume you think suicide rates would bump up but then settle into pre-suicide booth levels.
What does suicide have to do with the OP? Gun control proposals for which the burden falls on criminals and not the law-abiding
  #167  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:31 PM
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No, but if you dont respect the Op they do.
The OP? That would be HurricaneDitka.
  #168  
Old 10-29-2019, 04:58 PM
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Oddly, you tend to go ballistic whenever posters wont keep one of your Ops on what you consider the true topic as stated by you.
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Can we get back to the Op and away from your little hijack?
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No. I'm talking to my friend XT now, and our side discussion doesn't prevent your own. Go away, leave us alone and stop junior modding.

(I already said all there was to be said about the OP in post #4 anyway)
This is all junior modding. Knock it off.

[/moderating]
  #169  
Old 11-07-2019, 01:12 PM
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Who cares about the base rate? And you are repeating what I apparently wrongly strawmanned: you don't think suicide booths would have a long term effect on suicide rates.
I don't know if there is some tipping point in ease and accessibility of suicide that would significantly increase the suicide rate but I doubt it.

If you had an abortion clinic in every town so that it was already reasonably accessible to anyone that wanted one, do you think the rate of abortions would significantly increase if there was an abortion clinic on every corner or would the level of abortion remain relatively stable as soon as it became reasonably accessible?

If suicides were driven by the availability of guns, you would expect that a country that has more privately owned guns than people like the USA would have a sky high suicide rate. But among economically developed nations, our suicide rate has historically been average compared to other economically developed countries. It has been rising lately but it's hard to say it's because of greater accessibility to guns.

I think it's hard to make the argument that guns are causing an epidemic of suicides.
  #170  
Old 11-07-2019, 01:16 PM
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I dunno if they convicted anyone, but they indicted them and confiscated the guns. So lawyer fees, bail fees, etc.
Maybe I missed it but do you have a cite for that because that seems highly unjust.
  #171  
Old 11-07-2019, 03:13 PM
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Maybe I missed it but do you have a cite for that because that seems highly unjust.
That was a few decades (1989) ago, so it's gonna be hard. I found this:


https://freebeacon.com/issues/califo...ister-firearm/

and this:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...290-story.html
Putting close to 1,500 gun owners in legal jeopardy, state Atty. Gen. Bill Lockyer has decided to drop a court fight defending his predecessor’s controversial practice of registering semiautomatic assault weapons declared illegal by a 1989 state law.

The decision means that the owners of almost 2,000 UZIs, AK-47s, AR-15s and 72 other types of assault weapons will face a fine and imprisonment if they do not turn in their guns, destroy them or take them out of California...He said the decision is unfair to gun owners who registered their weapons. “Everyone thought they were complying with the law and doing the right thing,” he said...Officials in Lungren’s administration said they registered more than 16,000 assault weapons after the March 30, 1992, deadline. They said many of them were weapons that owners submitted just a few days before the deadline but were not processed until afterward.
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