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Old 11-08-2019, 11:50 AM
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Are the Morman's killed in Mexico related to Mitt Romney?


I remember after Mitt won the R primary there were news stories about his relatives in a Mormon Mexican community. I think it was a great-great grandfather with several wives? Polygamy creates large extended families.

The Mormon community was a potential security concern if Mitt had won the presidency. No link, this was 60 Minutes or 20/20. I vaguely recall Mitt confirmimg it was his great-great or maybe great-great-great grandfather.

Recent attack.

https://apnews.com/df0bc6f8a36e4422a6ab613b5a549fc0

Quote:
The nine women and children killed by drug cartel gunmen in northern Mexico on Monday lived in a remote farming community where residents are descendants of former church members who fled U.S. prosecution of polygamy in the late 19th century.

Early church members practiced polygamy in the 1800s at the instruction of founder Joseph Smith, but the church disavowed it in 1890.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-08-2019 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:59 AM
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Romney offered condolences to the families on his Twitter account, without mentioning any relationship to them.

Mitt Romney:
Quote:
Ann and I are heartbroken for the victims of the horrific attacks in Mexico. Our prayers are with their families who have suffered such an unspeakable tragedy. The U.S. must work with Mexican officials to hold accountable those responsible for this senseless violence.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:59 PM
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You don’t have to go great-great to find Romney’s link to Mexico. His father was born there.
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:08 PM
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Everything I’ve seen mentions the LaBaron family being involved. I haven’t found any link between the LaBarons and Romneys other than they were both part of the many families that settled there from the Mormon community.
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Loach View Post
Everything I’ve seen mentions the LaBaron family being involved. I haven’t found any link between the LaBarons and Romneys other than they were both part of the many families that settled there from the Mormon community.
This claims not LeBarons, or at least not those LeBarons.
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Old 11-08-2019, 01:31 PM
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Right that article says they were part of the very large LaBaron family. I never said they were part of a specific religious sect.
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Old 11-08-2019, 03:04 PM
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Right that article says they were part of the very large LaBaron family. I never said they were part of a specific religious sect.
"They do have a common ancestor in Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr., a Mormon who was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1924 for continuing to practice polygamy, which the Utah Saints officially disavowed in 1890."

The apple isn't falling very far from that tree.
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Old 11-08-2019, 03:12 PM
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I guess if there's any family connections to the Romney family they're keeping it quiet.

There's no need to put a bigger target on the Mexican Mormons then they already have from the drug cartels.


I found the video that I saw during Romney's presidential race.


https://youtu.be/GPvJLMrE5Hw

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-08-2019 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 03:19 PM
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It's a pretty community and seems well run. I hope the drug cartels haven't continued attacking that community too.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-08-2019 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:25 PM
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are these Mormans in Mexico currently practicing polygamy?
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
I guess if there's any family connections to the Romney family they're keeping it quiet.

There's no need to put a bigger target on the Mexican Mormons then they already have from the drug cartels.


I found the video that I saw during Romney's presidential race.


https://youtu.be/GPvJLMrE5Hw
I saw something on the news about something that happened to some random Christian family in Arkansas (or wherever you're from). Are they related to you? Are you keeping it quiet for reasons of security? Why would I even think that's the case, or keep harping on it? Why do you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
are these Mormans in Mexico currently practicing polygamy?
Can we get the spelling right for the name they don't really like? It's "Mormons." Or if you want to be nice and call them the abbreviated version of what they prefer, members of the LDS church.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
I saw something on the news about something that happened to some random Christian family in Arkansas (or wherever you're from). Are they related to you? Are you keeping it quiet for reasons of security? Why would I even think that's the case, or keep harping on it? Why do you?

Can we get the spelling right for the name they don't really like? It's "Mormons." Or if you want to be nice and call them the abbreviated version of what they prefer, members of the LDS church.
Are you having a rough day or something...?

I'll rephrase the question: Are the Mormons in Mexico for the sake of practicing polygamy?

Last edited by dontbesojumpy; 11-08-2019 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 06:51 PM
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You don’t have to go great-great to find Romney’s link to Mexico. His father was born there.
Great-Great-grandfather for a person Romney's age would quite possibly date to before the LDS existed (the Church was founded in 1830, the year my Great-grandfather was born - and I'm younger than Romney)
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:02 PM
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Are you having a rough day or something...?

I'll rephrase the question: Are the Mormons in Mexico for the sake of practicing polygamy?
Yes, the Mexican Mormons that were killed practice polygamy. It's why they left the US and relocated to practice their religious beliefs without persecution.

Quote:

The Mexican community is one of a handful of Mormon splinter groups who still practice plural marriage. The most well-known is a community on the Utah-Arizona border known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that was run by Jeffs, who is now serving a life sentence in Texas for sexually assaulting girls he considered brides.

There are other smaller groups around Salt Lake City and in Missouri.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-08-2019 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
I saw something on the news about something that happened to some random Christian family in Arkansas (or wherever you're from). Are they related to you? Are you keeping it quiet for reasons of security? Why would I even think that's the case, or keep harping on it? Why do you?.
Moderator Note

Let's dial back the snark. I assume the Mormon community in Mexico is not very large, and Romney's father was born in Mexico. The idea that there could be a link is not far-fetched.

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Old 11-08-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by aceplace57 View Post
The most well-known is a community on the Utah-Arizona border known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that was run by Jeffs, who is now serving a life sentence in Texas for sexually assaulting girls he considered brides.
I found this passage to be wholly unpleasant.
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Old 11-08-2019, 11:58 PM
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I found this passage to be wholly unpleasant.
Unpleasant but factually correct.
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Old 11-09-2019, 12:25 AM
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... Can we get the spelling right for the name they don't really like? It's "Mormons." Or if you want to be nice and call them the abbreviated version of what they prefer, members of the LDS church.
They're not members of the LDS church.
  #19  
Old 11-09-2019, 01:42 AM
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You don’t have to go great-great to find Romney’s link to Mexico. His father was born there.
Clarification:

Was Mitt Romney's dad Mexican? Or is this a McCain was born in Panama thing?
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 11-09-2019 at 01:44 AM.
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Old 11-09-2019, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
Clarification:

Was Mitt Romney's dad Mexican? Or is this a McCain was born in Panama thing?
George Romney was Governor of Michigan and sometime presidential candidate. He was born in Mexico to US citizen parents, making him a US citizen by birth. His grandparents were polygamous Mormons but his parents were monogamous.

From Wiki:

Quote:
Questions were occasionally asked about Romney's eligibility to run for President owing to his birth in Mexico, given the ambiguity in the United States Constitution over the phrase "natural-born citizen".[14][173][176] Romney would depart the race before the matter could be more definitively resolved,[173] although the preponderance of opinion then and since has been that he was eligible.[176][177]

Last edited by Colibri; 11-09-2019 at 02:42 AM.
  #21  
Old 11-09-2019, 02:55 AM
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They're not members of the LDS church.
This doesn't mean they don't consider themselves LDS. If I am remembering correctly Alma Dayer senior and his family felt that they were the ones who were the true Mormons as they were keeping true to Joseph Smith's decree of polygamy.

Probable source as my memory can't remember which book: Scott Anderson's book The Four O'Clock Murders which is about the LeBaron cult.
  #22  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
George Romney was Governor of Michigan and sometime presidential candidate. He was born in Mexico to US citizen parents, making him a US citizen by birth. His grandparents were polygamous Mormons but his parents were monogamous.

From Wiki:
That's where I got great great grandfather in the OP.
Mitt's polygamous connection is actually a great grandfather. I counted back one too many generations.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-09-2019 at 08:00 AM.
  #23  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:12 AM
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The BBC has a good background story on the Mormon fundamentalists migration to Mexico.

The Romney family isn't mentioned but the video I linked earlier reported they were part of that migration.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-50339377
Quote:
The Mormon fundamentalists started to move to Mexico from around 1890 when they split with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Primarily, they parted ways over the question of polygamy, which the breakaway Mormon groups continued to practise while the mainstream church, based in Utah, prohibited to comply with US law.

Polygamy was illegal in Mexico too - but there was an understanding that the authorities would "look the other way about their marriage practices", explains Dr Cristina Rosetti, a scholar of Mormon fundamentalism based in Salt Lake City.

"The families who went there were not 'fringe families' or 'bad Mormons'," she says. "These were leaders of the church; they weren't peripheral people. Big names went down there."

Among them was the LeBarón group's patriarch, Alma "Dayer" LeBarón, who established Colonia LeBarón in Chihuahua in the 1920s.

Last edited by aceplace57; 11-09-2019 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:47 AM
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Yes, but Alma's family was not part of the core settlement as they were part of the second wave, and thus - there is apparently some disagreement by other residents as to how much - were outsiders. In fairness, some said they weren't, they were loners who weren't interested in socializing and mingling, but others said they were because they arrived in that second wave and so were looked down on and there was some ostracising and in their town were the only ones from that second wave so had no fellow second wave families to bond with.

I don't remember offhand, but I don't believe any of Alma and his first wife's sons stayed with the LDS; they all formed their own churches.

Again: source Scott Anderson.

Last edited by kitap; 11-09-2019 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:20 AM
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This doesn't mean they don't consider themselves LDS. If I am remembering correctly Alma Dayer senior and his family felt that they were the ones who were the true Mormons as they were keeping true to Joseph Smith's decree of polygamy.

Probable source as my memory can't remember which book: Scott Anderson's book The Four O'Clock Murders which is about the LeBaron cult.
They might consider themselves "Latter-Day Saints" or "true Mormons", but they're clearly not "members of the LDS church", and I'm confident they understand that point even if some Dopers don't.
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:22 AM
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... I don't remember offhand, but I don't believe any of Alma and his first wife's sons stayed with the LDS; they all formed their own churches.

Again: source Scott Anderson.
If he were ever a member of the LDS church, he would have been excommunicated if it were known that he was practicing polygamy.
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:17 PM
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Note that this was written by Lindsay Hansen Park, an amateur historian who had a year-long podcast on Mormon polygamy. https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/ Her position is that the fundamentalists are actually closer to the church doctrine at the time of Joseph Smith than the current LDS church.

It was interesting for me because two of my great-grandparents where born into polygamous families.
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Originally Posted by wguy123 View Post
"They do have a common ancestor in Alma Dayer LeBaron Sr., a Mormon who was excommunicated from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1924 for continuing to practice polygamy, which the Utah Saints officially disavowed in 1890."

The apple isn't falling very far from that tree.
That’s an unfair accusation. While I don’t like polygamy, not all polygamous people are members of crazy sects. As far as being part of a large polygamous family, my g-g-grandfather had a bunch of wives and 26 some odd kids. After I had been dating a girlfriend in college for a while, we discovered we were distant cousins from that family group, which also includes the founder of a locally famous business. Anyone from Utah would know the name.

The polygamous members who remain in Mexico tend to be mostly independent fundamentalists (e.g. those who practice polygamy) rather than belonging to one of the organized groups. There are independent fundamentalists in Utah, but more tend to be part of one of the various groups.

As far as the date of 1890, that’s not really accurate. That’s the date of the press release issued by the prophet at the time, personally advising members to discontinue the practice. It wasn’t for another couple of decades before they got serious about stopping it, although the doctrine has never been renounced, and people will practice polygamy in heaven. For example, when a wife dies, the husband can be “sealed” or married in the temple and the second wife will also be married to him for all eternality.

The LDS church isn’t really open about this, which is one reason it’s been so hard to wipe out.
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Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
are these Mormans in Mexico currently practicing polygamy?
There are both Mormons there who practice polygamy and those who have stopped the practice. My understanding is that the Romney family are among those who do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colibri View Post
I assume the Mormon community in Mexico is not very large, and Romney's father was born in Mexico. The idea that there could be a link is not far-fetched.
This is an interesting question and actually one which I wouldn’t be surprised either way.

Normally, there is a large divide between mainstream LDS members and fundamentalists. As noted by another poster, those who practice polygamy with two current wives will be excommunicated and a local leader and excommunicate people for simply associating with polygamous people. However, as it is a small community so I wouldn’t be surprised is there weren’t some sort of connection somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitap View Post
This doesn't mean they don't consider themselves LDS. If I am remembering correctly Alma Dayer senior and his family felt that they were the ones who were the true Mormons as they were keeping true to Joseph Smith's decree of polygamy.
There are several terms here which should be clarified.

“Mormons” refers to people who adherents to a faith related to the religious movement which was founded by Joseph Smith and others in the late 1820s through the early 1840s. The largest sect within Mormonism is the LDS church based in Utah. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Note the hyphen and lower case “d.” One branch (or more?) doesn’t have the hyphen, another has the hyphen and an upper case “D,”

The LDS church has gone back and forth several times on claiming “Mormon” for itself then rejecting it. Currently it’s not supposed to be used by members to refer to themselves. They haven’t had any luck getting the media to follow along.

The largest divide came after Smith was gunned down in a jail by a mob. The Community of Christ (formally the Reformed LDS Church) was formed by people who rejected polygamy and there were a bunch of other branches formed.

After polygamy was discontinued a number of people and groups have broken off, some remaining independent and others forming organized movements. A few have retained “LDS” as part of their name, but most haven’t.

People who break off tend to regard themselves as having the true priesthood and authority of Jesus Christ and use another name.
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:56 AM
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Do the Mexican cartels have specific beefs against the LDS communities in Mexico? Or was this just a wrong place/wrong time sort of situation?

Does the Mexican government just look the other way at the alleged polygamy going on in those communities?
  #29  
Old 11-11-2019, 12:36 PM
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Do the Mexican cartels have specific beefs against the LDS communities in Mexico? Or was this just a wrong place/wrong time sort of situation? ...
Ten years ago a member of the community was kidnapped and two more were murdered. The assumption is that "the Mexican cartels" were involved in that. Since then though, I don't think they've had much of an ongoing feud. There's some speculation that the vehicles the women and children were in might have been mistaken for a rival cartel. I don't think the answer is really known yet though, and it may never be.
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Old 11-11-2019, 12:40 PM
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nm

Last edited by DrDeth; 11-11-2019 at 12:43 PM.
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