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  #201  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Bullshit. You thought it was irresponsible to sell that before this outbreak
Are you now a mindreader? I've never said any such thing.
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and you know perfectly well that the cause of this outbreak can't be the traditional vape ingredients.
Except that some victims of serious lung disease reported vaping only nicotine, and there's been no scientific vindication of "traditional vape ingredients".*

*to the contrary, there's evidence of harm. For instance:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surgeon General
Besides nicotine, e-cigarettes can contain harmful and potentially harmful ingredients, including:

ultrafine particles that can be inhaled deep into the lungs
flavorants such as diacetyl, a chemical linked to serious lung disease
volatile organic compounds
heavy metals, such as nickel, tin, and lead
https://e-cigarettes.surgeongeneral.gov

Last edited by Jackmannii; 09-29-2019 at 09:43 PM.
  #202  
Old 09-30-2019, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Bullshit. You thought it was irresponsible to sell that before this outbreak
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Are you now a mindreader? I've never said any such thing.
So, two years ago you thought there was no moral issues with selling vape products?
  #203  
Old 09-30-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
So, two years ago you thought there was no moral issues with selling vape products?
Two years ago I would've been blissfully unaware there was such a thing as CBD vape products, if they even existed then. And I don't recall ever going on about the "morality" of nicotine vaping (my posts on the subject have focused on health issues).

Now that you mention it, there's something morally dubious about adult nicotine vapers strenuously resisting regulations aimed at discouraging kids from getting hooked, on the basis that their pleasure and convenience mustn't be interfered with.
  #204  
Old 09-30-2019, 04:36 PM
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Now that you mention it, there's something morally dubious about adult nicotine vapers strenuously resisting regulations aimed at discouraging kids from getting hooked, on the basis that their pleasure and convenience mustn't be interfered with.
Boy, you're right. Next time you meet someone like that, you give them a nice self righteous earful from me too! You're so good at it!
  #205  
Old 10-02-2019, 02:42 PM
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No, not at all. What's truly odd is that anyone who was hooked on cigarettes and then switched to being hooked on nicotine vaping would defiantly announce that they'd likely switch back to cigarettes if denied flavored nicotine vapes.
Who did that? That would be odd, especially since a man made of straw should stay away from fire, smoking included.

I resignedly informed that if I am no longer able to vape, then I would get my nicotine by cigarette, I am not sure why you would choose to misrepresent my statement in such a ridiculous way.

I vastly prefer vaping to smoking, but if you take that option away, I am just pointing out that I'm not very likely to quit ingesting nicotine in whatever form is left to me.

Quote:
Apparently that's supposed to make the rest of society throw up its hands in horror and say "Oh NO! Please don't do that! Look, here are some lovely watermelon and bubblegum-flavored nicotine vapes!! Come back, please!!!"
See, like I said, you want to make this about you, and I'm just pointing out that this is not about you.

Quote:
It doesn't make a whopping difference to me if nicotine addicts seek to self-destruct faster out of pique.*
Since you really really want to make this about you rather than about those affected by the decisions that you endorse, does if make any difference to you if the morbidity and mortality of respiratory illness increases because you chose to ban vaping products in a fit of reactionary pique?
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I just don't want to see the vaping industry and its Big Tobacco affiliates create a whole new generation of nicotine addicts by using flavors and deceptive advertising to entice them.
Nor do I. Don't really see what anything that you have said has to do with that.

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Given that we don't know yet exactly what constituents of vaping medium are causing serious acute lung illness (not to mention the specter of slow-developing irreversible chronic lung disorders), it strikes me as hugely irresponsible at this time to be encouraging the sale of CBD vape products.
Sounds like some regulation is in order. I'd absolutely be happier to know that the vaping products that I use have been determined to not contain any adulterants that would cause serious acute lung illness. Regulating the industry is saying, Hey, that flavor of strawberry contains this chemical, which will cause acute lung illness. and that chemical is removed from the stores. If instead of regulating the industry, you simply ban such products, then people will make their own or buy from the grey market or use things that are not meant to be used, and increase their chances of acute lung illness.

I get it, it's not about flavors, it's not about oils or about the dangers of using untested and unregulated products. It is about you wanting to ban all forms of nicotine delivery. You feel that we'd be better off is no one had access to nicotine, and you actually may not be wrong about that. But, banning things that you don't want people to use has almost never worked, and has never led to positive outcomes.

You want to keep these out of kid's hands? I can think of a bunch of things that you can do, that does not cause millions of adults to have to give up a product that they use responsibly and legally. Take Juuls out of convenience stores, and only allow vaping products to be sold in licensed vape or tobacco shops. Crack down hard on any vape shops that sell to underage individuals. If you think that the flavors are too convenient, I would completely support banning flavors sold in those prepackaged cartridges, and if it is determined to be necessary, also banning nicotine juice pre-mixed with flavors. If you are actually interested in lowering teen vaping, rather than simply banning something you don't like, I have another half dozen or so ideas of ways to lower teenage vaping, without impacting an adult's ability to legally and responsibly use a product.

Try that first. If you do, and you still find that teen vaping is too high, then we can come back and revisit it. But, that you will not try some very common sense actions that have a much higher chance of moving toward your goal, but would rather take a product that I use legally and responsibly out of my hands, you betray that your motivation is not about the children, but about using "what about the children" as an excuse to control what other adults do with and to their bodies.
  #206  
Old 10-02-2019, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Try that first. If you do, and you still find that teen vaping is too high, then we can come back and revisit it. But, that you will not try some very common sense actions that have a much higher chance of moving toward your goal, but would rather take a product that I use legally and responsibly out of my hands, you betray that your motivation is not about the children, but about using "what about the children" as an excuse to control what other adults do with and to their bodies.
You don't get it. Jackmannii has no intention of negotiating with filthy selfish addicts like us. Either you agree with whatever sweeping mindless crackdown he proposes or go fuck yourself.
  #207  
Old 10-02-2019, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
I resignedly informed that if I am no longer able to vape, then I would get my nicotine by cigarette, I am not sure why you would choose to misrepresent my statement in such a ridiculous way.
Here's the statement to which I was responding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender
f you ban vaping, or make it hard or unpleasant to get, then we'll probably just go back to smoking.
That seemed to cover a lot of potential regulation, such as bans on flavoring that have been linked to teen vaping. If staying away from tobacco is important (as it should be), then such relatively mild inconveniences shouldn't impel one to resume smoking. And there are other smoking cessation products and strategies besides vaping.

The irony here is that it's vapers who want to make it all about them. Dealing with a wave of youth vaping leading to a new generation of nicotine addicts, or identifying and eliminating dangerous vape ingredients that are causing serious lung injuries and deaths - nope, can't worry about responding to these serious issues if the solutions make it "hard" or "unpleasant" for adult vapers to score their nicotine in any manner they choose.
Quote:
Regulating the industry is saying, “Hey, that flavor of strawberry contains this chemical, which will cause acute lung illness.” and that chemical is removed from the stores.
See the previous Surgeon General's link. Multiple vape ingredients were linked to pulmonary toxicity well before the current uproar, and where has the resolve been to get them eliminated? Certainly the industry itself hasn't shown real interest. Better yet, require good evidence that such substances are safe before they can be marketed.

The whining and hand-waving by vapers ("we'll just smoke instead! we'll buy stuff off the black market, and you'll be sorry!") is unpleasantly reminiscent of smokers' behavior when crackdowns on smoking in public places started to become widespread due to known risks of secondhand smoking. Gazillions of restaurants and bars were going to shut down due to crushing boycotts by smokers (according to tobacco industry and smokers' lobbying efforts). This dread consequence did not happen.* Vapers were up in arms when a ban on vaping on commercial airline flights was proposed.** Institution of the ban did not cause a big switch back to smoking because life was made more "hard" or "unpleasant" for vapers.

If most or all vape flavors are prohibited I greatly doubt there's going to be a big spike in smoking. Most people are sensible enough to take advantage of other means of obtaining their nicotine, or even getting off it entirely.

*"Almost all the reviewed studies reported, on average, no net loss and sometimes net increases in bar or restaurant sales after smoking bans went into effect."
**check out the image of Rep. Duncan Hunter defiantly vaping away in the linked article. His colleagues, appreciative of having to breathe his fumes were no doubt influenced to support his views.

Last edited by Jackmannii; 10-02-2019 at 08:41 PM.
  #208  
Old 11-08-2019, 02:16 PM
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Vitamin E acetate, used to cut products containing THC, may be the culprit.
  #209  
Old 11-09-2019, 11:14 AM
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It's not just THC-containing products. From the linked article:
Quote:
In the CDC analysis, THC was detected in 23 of 28 patient samples of lung cells, including from three patients who said they did not use THC products. Nicotine was detected in 16 of 26 patient samples.
The next step is to do animal studies to see if researchers can replicate the lung findings; then the cause of human lung disease can be more definitively established.

Hopefully this disease outbreak will lead to better testing for all vaping products, including the allegedly "safe" stuff sold by large corporate entities including Altria. As things stand now, nicotine vapers are guinea pigs in a massive uncontrolled experiment with chronic long-term effects still unknown.
  #210  
Old 11-09-2019, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
You don't get it. Jackmannii has no intention of negotiating with filthy selfish addicts like us. Either you agree with whatever sweeping mindless crackdown he proposes or go fuck yourself.
To pile on with Jackmanni ... I don't care too much about adult addicts who wish to stay addicted. They can fuck themselves or not as they please and as their anatomy allows. Hell, if they want to kill themselves with cigarettes rather than a wide variety of other options available to them, fine by me. Truth be told they aren't costing me any more as they'll die young. Just not near other people is all. The selfish bit, where they don't seem to give a shit about whether or not a new generation of teens is turned into addicts, so long as it is as easy and pleasing as possible for them as possible, is where they turn into contemptible and pathetic scum.

That is all.
  #211  
Old 11-09-2019, 03:18 PM
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To pile on with Jackmanni ... I don't care too much about adult addicts who wish to stay addicted. They can fuck themselves or not as they please and as their anatomy allows. Hell, if they want to kill themselves with cigarettes rather than a wide variety of other options available to them, fine by me. Truth be told they aren't costing me any more as they'll die young. Just not near other people is all. The selfish bit, where they don't seem to give a shit about whether or not a new generation of teens is turned into addicts, so long as it is as easy and pleasing as possible for them as possible, is where they turn into contemptible and pathetic scum.

That is all.
Except that smokers kill 50000 non-smokers a year, mostly kids and the elderly. And about half of the smokers wanna quit and I have had almost every smoker friend of mine quit thru vaping. It works. And sure, maybe if you're smoking vit E help oil, you are at risk, but vapers arent killing others by second hand smoke.

Leave vaping alone, until we get the number of smokers down to the die-hard (literally, becuase lung cancer is a really nasty way to go) never quitters. That might be as low as 5% of the population. then we can ban fucking smoking and give vapers a five year warning that vaping will be banned too.
  #212  
Old 11-09-2019, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Vitamin E acetate, used to cut products containing THC, may be the culprit.
My condolences to Jackmannii and DSeid. That could have been a happy story if all those people had died from cherry flavour.
  #213  
Old 11-09-2019, 07:30 PM
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Except that smokers kill 50000 non-smokers a year, mostly kids and the elderly. And about half of the smokers wanna quit and I have had almost every smoker friend of mine quit thru vaping. It works. ...
You missed my "not near other people" bit did you? But yeah selfish fucks who don't care about other people are selfish fucks.

To be more precise it is 41,000 deaths from second-hand smoke a year, not mostly kids, mostly adults from coronary artery disease.

Someone who wants to quit smoking cigarettes can (sometimes) quit even using a vaping product as an aid without a form factor and marketing approach that creates a new generation of addicts. The "But I need my cotton candy and banana split flavors! Take it away and I'll smoke I will! You just watch me!!! Wah." whining is still cry me a effin river.

The "I'll smoke near my kids!" threat is just dumb.

The success of decreasing the number of smokers has been almost exclusively because there have been fewer becoming nicotine addicts in the first place. Once someone is addicted and smoking the success rate of stopping smoking is dismal - inclusive of those who try to switch to vaping. I'd WAG that more the decrease in current smokers is more from death than quitting.

Teens who vape are much more likely, three times as likely, to become regular smokers, a pattern that is highest for those teens who would otherwise had been considered low risk for smoking onset. And yeah add in the unknown long term impacts of the various under-regulated additives being inhaled in vaping products themselves.

Reducing the number of teens (and pre-teens!) who become addicted to nicotine is the more important consideration.

So no I really don't care about adult addicts absolutely and selfishly having to have the most pleasurable addiction experience possible.
  #214  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Vitamin E acetate, used to cut products containing THC, may be the culprit.
Specifically Tocopheryl acetate which is synthesized, it's used mainly as a thickening agent but also has some preservative properties reducing the rancidity of the oil overtime.


Bigger brand supplies such as commonwealth, do not use tocopheryl acetate. This is mostly smaller producers of oil extracts. Also we have to consider, some of the chemicals used believed to be safe, aren't always a 1 to 1 for animal to human, especially considering chemicals change when heated which can result in a wide variety of effects on humans.
  #215  
Old 11-09-2019, 09:24 PM
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It's not just THC-containing products. From the linked article:The next step is to do animal studies to see if researchers can replicate the lung findings; then the cause of human lung disease can be more definitively established.

Hopefully this disease outbreak will lead to better testing for all vaping products, including the allegedly "safe" stuff sold by large corporate entities including Altria. As things stand now, nicotine vapers are guinea pigs in a massive uncontrolled experiment with chronic long-term effects still unknown.
This is because we don't have strong regulation or testing on some of the chemicals used in these oils.

We need to test the effects of these chemicals when they are heated up, and inhaled. A lot of the information we operate on is from decades ago, with tests that often didn't have the chemicals heated up thus changing the structure, nor being inhaled most of the tests were done via rats consuming. Also synthetic chemicals like Tocopheryl acetate need to be banned, there are other thickening / preserving agents that I'm guessing might be more difficult or cost more to produce with, hence why u see the smaller producers of nicotine and THC/CBD oils giving people problems.
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