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  #501  
Old 06-19-2015, 06:31 PM
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I disagree. Its so obvious that diversity is part of it and cannot be uncoupled from simply indirect reparations for the slavery of blacks. If it was not meant to create diversity, then we can simply hand out money to minorities that don't get admitted to Harvard and other schools.
The only reason Harvard can "create diversity" (which, again, to them means artificially letting in whites to keep the class from becoming too non-diversely Asian) in this way is because they are a private institution and have great leeway to do pretty much anything they want short of openly having a no-blacks policy, which no one is alleging they do.

You can't point to any public college or government-run agency that practices affirmative action by creating diversity through handicapping nonwhites and promoting undeserving whites, because such a concept is incoherent and ridiculous and only exists in your tortured justifications for the Keep Harvard White movement.
  #502  
Old 06-19-2015, 06:53 PM
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You can't point to any public college or government-run agency that practices affirmative action by creating diversity through handicapping nonwhites and promoting undeserving whites, because such a concept is incoherent and ridiculous and only exists in your tortured justifications for the Keep Harvard White movement.
I don't want to keep Harvard white. But thank you for playing.
  #503  
Old 06-19-2015, 07:15 PM
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500 posts of you arguing for it could have fooled me.
  #504  
Old 06-19-2015, 07:20 PM
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500 posts of you arguing for it could have fooled me.
Consider the fact that you lack reading comprehension skills
  #505  
Old 06-20-2015, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Haberdash View Post
500 posts of you arguing for it could have fooled me.
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Originally Posted by YogSosoth View Post
Consider the fact that you lack reading comprehension skills
Drop the snide personal attacks.

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  #506  
Old 06-26-2015, 02:19 PM
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I am the OP, I think I was pretty clear what I think about it.

As long as Harvard gets money from the government, they should not be able to discriminate on racial basis. If that results in fewer black doctors from Harvard, that's how it is. I am sure those who have high MCATs etc. and don't get into Harvard med school will still be able to get into good med schools.
Affirmative action is the policy of the United States government. This policy has been upheld at all levels of review.
  #507  
Old 06-26-2015, 02:25 PM
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Sort of. You call him/her "Doctor," but there are lots of layers of Doctors.

You don't typically call the C average Doctor "Specialist."
I am much more concerned with diversity at the primary care level than at the specialist level. Or do you think we have too many primary care physicians?

I am not concerned with what the doctor looks like if the majority of your interaction with him is while you are under anesthesia or if you are seeing her because she is a specialist. I am a little concerned that the doctors in Far Rockaway are almost all Asian serving and almost all Black community.
  #508  
Old 06-26-2015, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by YogSosoth View Post
I disagree. Its so obvious that diversity is part of it and cannot be uncoupled from simply indirect reparations for the slavery of blacks. If it was not meant to create diversity, then we can simply hand out money to minorities that don't get admitted to Harvard and other schools.
Its not reparations that should be passed out to every black person. It is leveling the playing field to compensate for past and current discrimination. Its not like every black child in America would be going to Harvard but for slavery and Jim Crow.

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Well that's annoying. I was asked to explain myself and I did. We all know that unless you're one of the 9, its pointless to really argue. I'm not sure why you had to say that other than as a way to take a shot as my opinion.
I don't think I asked you to explain yourself. But if you took it as me taking a shot at you I apologize.

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Well unfortunately my opinion on this doesn't matter so I'm not going to bother answering that.

....is what I would say in response if I were a dick. But I'm not a dick, I just have one. So in answer to your question, there may be many other industries that can benefit from such a forced shift in demographics. None of my answers should be construed as being exclusive. The reason why I didn't bring up the entertainment industry is because we're not talking about that industry. Make a separate topic on entertainment if you want me to further debate it
Well at least you're consistent.
  #509  
Old 08-07-2015, 08:15 PM
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Small belated update and additional factor to be considered.

In early July the U.S. Education Department dismissed the complaint. Despite the bemoaning by petition organizers that “They really let the Asian-American community down.” the significance is not so huge as there is still a similar case filed in Federal court.

Meanwhile a recent radio report about college suicides among high achievers got me wondering what the rate of suicide is among Asian college students. Not much hard data, apparently just not kept. Definitely more suicidal ideation, even in High School. Otherwise we are left with anecdotal bits like this from MIT.
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... This finding is important because that same study also found that a mere 14% of universities keep comprehensive records of student suicides; fewer still provide in-depth demographic analysis of reported deaths (Cornell University, by the way, is a notable exception to this rule). Armed with the understanding that at Cornell, Asian American students were disproportionately overrepresented among student deaths by suicide, this afternoon I combed through the archives of the MIT Tech, the school’s on-campus newspaper, to generate a more contemporary analysis of student deaths by suicide on the MIT campus.

My findings were alarming: 19 of the last student deaths by suicide on the MIT campus occurred in the last 15 years. 8 of them — or 42% — involved Asian American students. ... Compare this figure to the whole racial demographics of the MIT campus: 16% of MIT students are Asian American (24% of undergraduates, 11% of graduate students). This means that Asian Americans are over-represented by a factor of more than 2.5 among the school’s suicides. ...
One article puts it like this:
Quote:
Asian Americans typically make up 10 to 30 percent of the best colleges. Less than 6 percent of the country’s population, Asian Americans have excelled in higher education in the last few decades. What’s barely explored, sadly, is the darker narrative, that subterraneous stream that runs parallel to this shining path to academic success: stress, disappointment, depression, and mental disorders.
  #510  
Old 08-07-2015, 08:37 PM
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It seems plausible to suggest that the high pressure put on Asian students to acheive results in a high suicide rate among those who fail.
  #511  
Old 01-08-2016, 03:20 PM
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This article is relevant:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/i...veals_all.html
  #512  
Old 01-11-2016, 03:44 PM
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This article seems to be talking mostly about international students.
  #513  
Old 01-12-2016, 05:02 PM
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Another belated story

http://www.wsj.com/articles/princeto...ion-1443041489

So whatever discrimination Princeton does or does not engage in is within the bounds of the law as far as the DoJ is concerned. This probably means that Harvard et al will get similar results.
  #514  
Old 01-17-2016, 08:56 AM
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Until Fisher is decided by SCOTUS, the DoJ's opinion is not very significant.

At issue for schools will be whether post-Fisher they can use race-alone criteria in their selection processes. Underneath all the hoopla is a simple fact: the best-qualified candidates from all (self-identified) race groups come from privileged backgrounds.

Schools which want to be selective for candidates who are highly qualified academically face the stark reality that almost all highly-qualified blacks come from highly privileged backgrounds (as is true across the board for all races). But as a race bloc, their average scores are substantially below the average scores for other races with similar socioeconomic backgrounds. As a consequence of this, there is no way to get race-based diversity with excellent black students without having a race-based academic standard unique to each race group, and lower for blacks.

Fisher is not about Fisher being less qualified than students who were admitted. It's about U Texas's right to preferentially race-qualify middle/upper class blacks over middle/upper class whites and asians, since U Texas could get race-alone diversity using the 10% guideline.

Ivy Leagues and others have essentially argued that their holistic approaches satisfy race-specific concerns, but if Fisher goes against U Texas, future suits will be able to wrest data that is currently not being coerced into exposure by the DoJ (which is fairly race-friendly, so to speak).

Last edited by Chief Pedant; 01-17-2016 at 08:59 AM.
  #515  
Old 01-17-2016, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Chief Pedant View Post
Until Fisher is decided by SCOTUS, the DoJ's opinion is not very significant.

At issue for schools will be whether post-Fisher they can use race-alone criteria in their selection processes. Underneath all the hoopla is a simple fact: the best-qualified candidates from all (self-identified) race groups come from privileged backgrounds.

Schools which want to be selective for candidates who are highly qualified academically face the stark reality that almost all highly-qualified blacks come from highly privileged backgrounds (as is true across the board for all races). But as a race bloc, their average scores are substantially below the average scores for other races with similar socioeconomic backgrounds. As a consequence of this, there is no way to get race-based diversity with excellent black students without having a race-based academic standard unique to each race group, and lower for blacks.

Fisher is not about Fisher being less qualified than students who were admitted. It's about U Texas's right to preferentially race-qualify middle/upper class blacks over middle/upper class whites and asians, since U Texas could get race-alone diversity using the 10% guideline.

Ivy Leagues and others have essentially argued that their holistic approaches satisfy race-specific concerns, but if Fisher goes against U Texas, future suits will be able to wrest data that is currently not being coerced into exposure by the DoJ (which is fairly race-friendly, so to speak).
I'm curious how you feel about my position which some could construe as anti-white. I don't mind affirmative action for the descendants of American slaves (at least for another decade or so and American Indians for a significantly longer period of time) but I want college admissions to be color and gender blind in all other respects (although I would be open to a socioeconomic bias by using something like the Texas 10% model). I am particularly offended by biases in favor of white children on the presumption that they are individuals while Asians are fungible SAT scores.
  #516  
Old 01-17-2016, 06:22 PM
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I'm curious how you feel about my position which some could construe as anti-white. I don't mind affirmative action for the descendants of American slaves (at least for another decade or so and American Indians for a significantly longer period of time) but I want college admissions to be color and gender blind in all other respects (although I would be open to a socioeconomic bias by using something like the Texas 10% model). I am particularly offended by biases in favor of white children on the presumption that they are individuals while Asians are fungible SAT scores.
I'm unclear what your position is...

I am in favor of race-based AA because, without it, blacks will be significantly left behind.

I think asians get the short end of the stick for merit-based systems.
  #517  
Old 01-17-2016, 11:57 PM
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I think asians get the short end of the stick for merit-based systems.
Which Asians and why?
  #518  
Old 01-18-2016, 05:53 AM
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I have no problem with eliminating that kind of affirmative action either.

Hey - how about this: you can keep your "holistic process". But - people judging and deciding which applicants to accept and which to reject do not get to know their name, gender, race or ethnicity. Those are eliminated from the application, all that is stored separately, indexed by the application number. Once the application is accepted, then that is dug out and attached to the application.
An entrance exam with only a number to identify the applicant to be held outside of the university system (school/college) sounds fare, we could do with the same system in the U.K.
  #519  
Old 01-18-2016, 06:06 AM
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An entrance exam with only a number to identify the applicant to be held outside of the university system (school/college) sounds fare, we could do with the same system in the U.K.
That's what A-levels are, surely?
  #520  
Old 01-18-2016, 06:22 AM
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That's what A-levels are, surely?
It should be but only if you have gone to the right school. where I live you stand a better chance if you go to the private school than if you go to the local 6th form (which is excellent) at the end of the day we still have a class system where it is perceived that you must be the right type of person
  #521  
Old 01-18-2016, 08:47 AM
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Which Asians and why?
As with any other group tracked by Federal guidelines for identification of race and ethnicity, self-identified ones.

As a group, asians outscore whites on standardized academic exams. Whites in turn outscore blacks. See a recent SAT composite summary here, in the bottom table:
Asians: 1654
Whites: 1576
Blacks: 1277

At the top tiers of performance, the differences become quite stark, with very very few high-performing blacks on standardized exams.

"Almost No Blacks Among the Top Scorers
on the Scholastic Assessment Test

It is important to explain how the SAT racial scoring gap challenges affirmative action policies at the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities. Under the SAT scoring system, most non-minority students hoping to qualify for admission to any of the nation's 25 highest-ranked universities and 25 highest-ranked liberal arts colleges need to score at least 700 on each portion of the SAT...
Let's be more specific about the SAT racial gap among high-scoring applicants. In 2005, 153,132 African Americans took the SAT test. They made up 10.4 percent of all SAT test takers. But only 1,132 African-American college-bound students scored 700 or above on the math SAT and only 1,205 scored at least 700 on the verbal SAT. Nationally, more than 100,000 students of all races scored 700 or above on the math SAT and 78,025 students scored 700 or above on the verbal SAT. Thus, in this top-scoring category of all SAT test takers, blacks made up only 1.1 percent of the students scoring 700 or higher on the math test and only 1.5 percent of the students scoring 700 or higher on the verbal SAT."


With all groups, the highest scores generally come from reasonably privileged backgrounds, and so socioeconomic status generally trends with academic performance. This means schools cannot simply achieve diversity by taking into account privilege. At every tier of privilege, asians still substantially beat out their equally-privileged peers.

If a school used a pure merit-based system (adjusted for socioeconomic privilege), asians would be even more hugely over-represented than they are now. This is exactly the problem Ivy Leagues are facing. There are plenty of high-scoring asians to fill the classes, and a paucity of high-scoring blacks. Every institution must set de facto "diversity" criteria that have the effect of not accepting asians who would be readily admitted were they blacks with the same set of scores and "other" skills.
  #522  
Old 01-18-2016, 08:55 AM
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As an example, Kwasi Enan was accepted to all 8 Ivy League schools to which he applied, despite SAT scores of only 2250 and a rank of #11 in his class. This would be highly unusual were he asian instead of black.
  #523  
Old 01-18-2016, 09:59 AM
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Which Asians and why?
All Asians. Chopstick Asians (and Indians) tend to blow the curve and then the other Asians are stuck with that curve. Schools don't generally give a shit about the difference between Asians of Taiwanese descent and Asians of Malaysian descent. They just lump them together and apply a higher standard.
  #524  
Old 07-15-2018, 02:49 PM
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"Alumni interviewers give Asian-Americans personal ratings comparable to those of whites. But the admissions office gives them the worst scores of any racial group, often without even meeting them, according to Professor Arcidiacono."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/u...pplicants.html
  #525  
Old 07-15-2018, 04:29 PM
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If university admissions are a circus because of a supposed flood of qualified candidates, then the real problem is that there are not enough places. Ameliorating overcrowding and high tuition fees at universities would require massive funding, of course.
  #526  
Old 07-16-2018, 09:01 AM
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The article is rather thin on what evidence the plaintiffs have. In fact, there is no information at all about why they believe they are being discriminated against. Without seeing that evidence, I can't say one or the other whether they are right or not.
Its true. If you are Asian and applying to Harvard, your standards are higher then another ethnic group. Maybe Asians who work hard will wake up and realizes the Democratic party isn't for them with this quota business.

African Americans should be upset too, as some universities accept African born, non-USA citizens over them to hit their own quotas.

Higher education needs a kick in the rear. No only does this happen, conservative students are sometimes intimidated or punished for speaking their views. I hope the Supreme Court takes one of these cases.

http://asianamericanforeducation.org...on-admissions/

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david...b_7498760.html
  #527  
Old 07-16-2018, 02:48 PM
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If university admissions are a circus because of a supposed flood of qualified candidates, then the real problem is that there are not enough places. Ameliorating overcrowding and high tuition fees at universities would require massive funding, of course.
Only at the best universities. And there are only so many great professors. You can invent more places but you can't keep the quality of the education at the same level.
  #528  
Old 07-17-2018, 08:11 AM
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If university admissions are a circus because of a supposed flood of qualified candidates, then the real problem is that there are not enough places. Ameliorating overcrowding and high tuition fees at universities would require massive funding, of course.
What do you mean? There are now more seats in college than at any time in our history. The problem is that the seats are not being allocated according to ability but according to melanin content.
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:35 AM
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Its true. If you are Asian and applying to Harvard, your standards are higher then another ethnic group. Maybe Asians who work hard will wake up and realizes the Democratic party isn't for them with this quota business.
It isn't just discrimination in admissions.

Part of the idea of admitting less-qualified blacks is to get students used to being in a diverse environment. So they admit a bunch of less-qualified candidates, and those candidates drop out more, take longer to graduate if they do graduate, tend to take easier, non-STEM majors, get lower GPAs, and generally cluster around the bottom of the class. The rest of the student body is supposed to not notice that, but it is not easy to ignore.

The lesson of diversity is "the top achievers are not likely to be black". Of course, college also gives training in negotiating the minefields of political correctness, so at least they will have some experience in doing that when they get out into the real world.

Regards,
Shodan
  #530  
Old 07-17-2018, 11:07 AM
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It isn't just discrimination in admissions.

Part of the idea of admitting less-qualified blacks is to get students used to being in a diverse environment. So they admit a bunch of less-qualified candidates, and those candidates drop out more, take longer to graduate if they do graduate, tend to take easier, non-STEM majors, get lower GPAs, and generally cluster around the bottom of the class. The rest of the student body is supposed to not notice that, but it is not easy to ignore.

The lesson of diversity is "the top achievers are not likely to be black". Of course, college also gives training in negotiating the minefields of political correctness, so at least they will have some experience in doing that when they get out into the real world.

Regards,
Shodan
In the UC system we have seen blacks achieve pretty good results after they got rid of racial preferences. Sure, they are going to UC Irvine instead of UCLA but they are dropping out less frequently, getting better grades and generally achieving better results.

I think the push to have more of them at places like Berkeley is that some people think that college admissions is correlated directly to IQ and it makes them uncomfortable to see the absence of black faces at the toughest schools. So they want to institute diversity programs that send those UC Irvine students to Berkeley where many of them drown academically and drop out. And, as you say, the UC Berkeley students see that all the kids dropping out for academic reasons are black.

Environment and effort rather than native IQ have a lot to do with academic success but people don't like THIS answer either because that implies that the black students aren't trying hard enough or there is something.

So they want to pin this large difference in test scores on racism. A form of racism that cripples blacks and hispanics (although it seems to cripple hispanics less and less every generation) but provides an advantage to Asians.

The problem with Harvard is threefold (IMO).

(I) It is not merely giving URMs a preference which sets aside some spots for URMs, it is actively discriminating against Asians giving the impression that those spots are being borne entirely by Asian applicants.

(II) It is providing preferences not only to the descendants of slaves and american Indians, it is providing preferences to anyone with the same melanin content in their skin. It is doing so on the basis of diversity. This gives the distinct impression that they think there are too many Asians that are fucking up the diversity mix.

(III) The preference is too large. The large difference in standardized test scores is (IMO) hard to justify based on a desire for diversity or countering the effects of modern day racism.
  #531  
Old 08-09-2018, 03:05 PM
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I'm unclear what your position is...

I am in favor of race-based AA because, without it, blacks will be significantly left behind.

I think asians get the short end of the stick for merit-based systems.
Do you favor quotas?

Who sets them (or the level of AA), how are the levels determined?
  #532  
Old 08-11-2018, 01:26 AM
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Its true. If you are Asian and applying to Harvard, your standards are higher then another ethnic group. Maybe Asians who work hard will wake up and realizes the Democratic party isn't for them with this quota business.
Some do realize it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/09/u...dmissions.html
  #533  
Old 08-11-2018, 10:31 AM
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Only at the best universities. And there are only so many great professors. You can invent more places but you can't keep the quality of the education at the same level.
Well, you could video-record the best professors. And figure out who's best not by peer reputation but by measurable learning metrics. And train AI agents and bots to predict what the professor would have said to a given query so that students can ask the great professor questions without needing 1:1 time from the professor.

Some of this is what OMSCS is trying to do, though like anything it takes time. Point is, there is know reason why name brand Ivy League education need remain elite...if it's even measurably better.
  #534  
Old 08-14-2018, 11:12 AM
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Well, you could video-record the best professors. And figure out who's best not by peer reputation but by measurable learning metrics. And train AI agents and bots to predict what the professor would have said to a given query so that students can ask the great professor questions without needing 1:1 time from the professor.

Some of this is what OMSCS is trying to do, though like anything it takes time. Point is, there is know reason why name brand Ivy League education need remain elite...if it's even measurably better.
A brand name degree is more than the course of instruction.

But to be fair, a lot of state schools are doing a great job of creating schools within schools that surpass the Ivy league environment in every way except international name recognition.
  #535  
Old 08-17-2018, 04:18 PM
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If diversity were not a concern, far fewer young men would be admitted to competitive colleges and universities. Young women outshine young men according to the usual objective criteria.

Affirmative Action for Men
OTOH, tech schools are screaming for women like Missouri tech at Linn is only 13% female.
  #536  
Old 10-16-2018, 08:55 AM
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna920376
  #537  
Old 10-31-2019, 02:25 PM
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Harvard wins lawsuit at trial level. Appeal inevitable.


https://www.npr.org/2019/10/01/73038...dmissions-case

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; 10-31-2019 at 02:26 PM.
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