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  #101  
Old 10-22-2019, 01:56 AM
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Yeah, great synopsis, Smapti!

I'll have to say, the writers knew how to hit the unsettling beats in the first episode to match the original. I hope they can back it up.

But woah, I don't know what to make of the Oklahoma! subtext. Making Rogers & Hammerstein's musical a screwy centerpiece of modern culture just seems bizarre to me. Even if I can sing the whole thing (I had a childhood filled with musicals), the world that somehow ended up with that in its brain in 2019 is going to have to have a good reason to exist. They're gonna have to explain that twist.
  #102  
Old 10-22-2019, 02:50 AM
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Eh. I saw the movie years ago and really dug it - side note, that opening montage set against The Times They are A-Changin is brilliant and one of the best I've ever seen - but I just can't bring myself to watch another project that Damon Lindelof is running. After seeing how he blew the ending of LOST and mangled the Prometheus script, it is just abundantly clear that the man has no idea how to pay off any of his ideas. All he's adept at is posing questions and never resolving them. Hard pass for me.
  #103  
Old 10-22-2019, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
The inter dimensional threat mentioned above took the form of a giant alien squid (in the book). The movie went a different way with it. Hence the show seems to be set in the world of the book rather than the movie.
To be specific (spoilers for the movie

SPOILER:
Instead of the squid, Veidt creates an energy weapon based on Dr. Manhattan's powers and uses it on NYC and several other major world cities, thus convincing the governments that Manhattan himself is the threat they need to unite against.

Last edited by Smapti; 10-22-2019 at 03:02 AM.
  #104  
Old 10-22-2019, 03:41 AM
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The inter dimensional threat mentioned above took the form of a giant alien squid (in the book). The movie went a different way with it. Hence the show seems to be set in the world of the book rather than the movie.
I caught the part about the giant squid. Why is it raining little squids?
  #105  
Old 10-22-2019, 03:45 AM
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I caught the part about the giant squid. Why is it raining little squids?
My guess would be that it's either an after-effect of the big squid, or something Veidt is continuing to cause to keep people worried.
  #106  
Old 10-22-2019, 04:38 AM
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Eh. I saw the movie years ago and really dug it - side note, that opening montage set against The Times They are A-Changin is brilliant and one of the best I've ever seen - but I just can't bring myself to watch another project that Damon Lindelof is running. After seeing how he blew the ending of LOST and mangled the Prometheus script, it is just abundantly clear that the man has no idea how to pay off any of his ideas. All he's adept at is posing questions and never resolving them. Hard pass for me.
Watch The Leftovers.
Watch. The Leftovers.
Watch. The. Leftovers.
WATCH. THE LEFTOVERS.

It made up for Lost. And then some. Started slowly with people you hate (and I liked the first season), and then became something beautiful. Suprising. Amazing. Sad. Takes you places you really wouldn't predict.

His large debt from Lost is repaid with that. He's got credit now.

I've never watched Prometheus, Alien series, like Terminator series, is a poisoned chalice as far as I'm concerned.
  #107  
Old 10-22-2019, 10:23 AM
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HBO has created a companion site for the show: https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia

I've only read the first document so far, but it gives some background on things like the tech level of the show's world and some history.
  #108  
Old 10-22-2019, 10:58 AM
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Watch The Leftovers.
Watch. The Leftovers.
Watch. The. Leftovers.
WATCH. THE LEFTOVERS.
Indeed. One of the best shows I've ever seen. I'll trust whatever shows Lindelof wants to do as a result of the brilliance of the The Leftovers.
  #109  
Old 10-22-2019, 11:45 AM
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HBO has created a companion site for the show: https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia

I've only read the first document so far, but it gives some background on things like the tech level of the show's world and some history.
The clipping of Veidt declared dead was interesting. Indicating that Veidt's money is what led to the election of Redford and in 1992, not 1988 (as the comic alluded to when Redford may run).

And the whole notion that technology stopped after the squid event as people thought it was tech that led to the whole thing (or maybe made the interdimension beings aware of humanity?) and they are just coming back to reintroducing computers and whatnot.
  #110  
Old 10-22-2019, 12:44 PM
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Yeah I thought maybe I was reading it deeper than intended but I saw parallels in the way the comic tackled one of the largest anxieties of its era (the cold war) with how this is tackling one of our present's anxieties (race and white supremacy).
I read an interview with Lindelof that says almost exactly this. He was looking for a central idea to build the new series around, and determined that racial tensions in America today filled the same niche that Cold War anxiety did back when the original Watchmen was written. I think it was a very astute choice.

From what I've seen in the first episode, I think that he's also done a great job at showing something we don't often see, a left-wing dystopia. In the universe of the show Robert Redford has been president for something like 20 years, term limits having been abolished. It's interesting to see the imagined effects of pushing the pendulum too far in that direction, although clearly the Seventh Kavalry aren't exactly heroes either.

Which again is a good continuation of the theme of the comic, in which there really aren't any good guys. Overall I'm very impressed with the world building and am looking forward to the rest of the series.
  #111  
Old 10-22-2019, 08:33 PM
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I was extremely bothered by the incredibly awful policing in a world that seems to be a semi-fascist state. The raid on the cattle ranch was possibly the stupidest attack outside of a Dolph Lundgren action movie, and the chief's driving off by himself was so criminally idiotic that I can only believe that the whole thing is a trick and he's not dead.

The critics were given six episodes and seem to unanimously say that it improves greatly from the first. It had better. This was interesting in the potential of what it might say and awful in every way it said it.
  #112  
Old 10-22-2019, 08:43 PM
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Indeed. One of the best shows I've ever seen. I'll trust whatever shows Lindelof wants to do as a result of the brilliance of the The Leftovers.
...in case nobody has mentioned this yet: WATCH THE LEFTOVERS.

Its simply brilliant. And he stuck the landing.

One of the biggest things I got from the Leftovers though was how Lindelof runs his writing room. SPOILERS ON THE FOLLOWING LINK. This article goes into depth about how the room is run, don't click on it unless you've seen the entire series. Link.

I'm only watching Watchmen because its a Lindelof show. I would have had zero interest in it otherwise.
  #113  
Old 10-23-2019, 04:35 AM
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I was extremely bothered by the incredibly awful policing in a world that seems to be a semi-fascist state. The raid on the cattle ranch was possibly the stupidest attack outside of a Dolph Lundgren action movie, and the chief's driving off by himself was so criminally idiotic that I can only believe that the whole thing is a trick and he's not dead.
It seems to me that the right-wing authoritarian police force is being constrained by the demands of the left-wing authoritarian government, since the cops need permission to unholster their weapons and it required a force-wide meeting and a vote to grant them the authority to conduct the raid. The guy in the panda mask appears to be in control of authorizing the use of force, and it seems like he's a political appointee whose views don't align with the chief's.

Perhaps the chief wasn't allowed to request an escort?
  #114  
Old 10-23-2019, 12:03 PM
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It seems to me that the right-wing authoritarian police force is being constrained by the demands of the left-wing authoritarian government, since the cops need permission to unholster their weapons and it required a force-wide meeting and a vote to grant them the authority to conduct the raid. The guy in the panda mask appears to be in control of authorizing the use of force, and it seems like he's a political appointee whose views don't align with the chief's.

Perhaps the chief wasn't allowed to request an escort?
He said as he was leaving his house that he would have one of the officers drive him, then he waved them off. That's either stupidity or deliberately misleading.

He also got out of the car without using a radio or phone to notify anyone. Are there cell phones in this world?
  #115  
Old 10-23-2019, 01:09 PM
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He said as he was leaving his house that he would have one of the officers drive him, then he waved them off. That's either stupidity or deliberately misleading.

He also got out of the car without using a radio or phone to notify anyone. Are there cell phones in this world?
There could be all sorts of reasons for that though. There are some rumors that the Chief may have been working both sides (and thus didn't want those other officers around when he got to the hospital). Or the call wasn't from the hospital in the first place and he was going somewhere else.

And no, according to the HBO link upthread, they just reintroduced computers to the police department and therefore cell phones are definitely not in the mix (remember the police call to meet up due to emergency came over pager).
  #116  
Old 10-23-2019, 01:16 PM
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My guess would be that it's either an after-effect of the big squid, or something Veidt is continuing to cause to keep people worried.
Thanks. Looks like there's a lot they have to clear up to make this work.
  #117  
Old 10-23-2019, 11:41 PM
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One more minor quibble with the synopsis: there was at least a second person with super powers, an unnamed 'human sensitive' that Ozymandias' team cloned the brain of to make the squid... directly fearsome. Plot-relevant, but not a character who appears or gets a name.
  #118  
Old 10-24-2019, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Smapti View Post
To be specific (spoilers for the movie

SPOILER:
Instead of the squid, Veidt creates an energy weapon based on Dr. Manhattan's powers and uses it on NYC and several other major world cities, thus convincing the governments that Manhattan himself is the threat they need to unite against.
As a big fan of the book, the movie ending actually makes more sense.
  #119  
Old 10-25-2019, 07:02 AM
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I saw it, not having read the source material, and didn't understand much of what was going on. I'll read recaps and watch the later episodes and perhaps it will start to make sense.
That was my immediate reaction to the first episode: "This would probably make no sense whatsoever to someone who hadn't read the comics or watched the movie"
  #120  
Old 10-25-2019, 11:16 AM
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He also got out of the car without using a radio or phone to notify anyone. Are there cell phones in this world?
According to one of the "memos" in the link above, certain tech was restricted back in the 90s. So we can expect to see a lack of computer/internet/cell phone tech.
  #121  
Old 10-25-2019, 11:54 AM
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So in addition to Jeremy Irons being Veidt (which seems obvious), can we pretty much conclude that Louis Gossett Jr. is Hooded Justice? I just started rereading the book (because it seemed like a good excuse to do so), and it's quickly mentioned that Hooded Justice disappeared in 1955. The timeline seems to line up, unless I'm missing something obvious. Add in Gossett's mentioning that he can lift 200 lbs, the opening Tusla scene backstory, the "American Hero Story" TV show going on in the background throughout the episode, and Gossett being right next to a hanging victim seems to be pretty heavy indications.

Also, what's up with Veidt's servants? Are they robots? Are they organic constructions he's been cooking? It looked like Mr. Manhattan's nuclear chamber at the end there - is Veidt trying to recreate a superpowered hero? Or maybe just people?
  #122  
Old 10-27-2019, 03:29 PM
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Truly one of the best panels in comic book history. After the heroes tell Veidt they won't let him do it he replies "Do it? Dan, I'm not a republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my masterstroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting it's outcome? I did it 35 minutes ago". Great synopsis btw!
And they flip that around in the movie by having him say he's not a comic book villain.
  #123  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:59 AM
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So in addition to Jeremy Irons being Veidt (which seems obvious)
...speculation: (put in spoilers for those who would prefer to follow along and enjoy each episode for what it is and don't want to play the speculation game)

SPOILER:
I'm calling it now: Irons is playing Doctor Manhattan, not Veidt. That was lampshaded earlier in the episode when Sister Night said that Doctor Manhattan "can't look like us." My theory: Manhattan's figured out a way to look like us. He built himself a castle and an army of clones. He occasionally sits around in the nude. And puts on plays that follow his origin story. Because why not?
  #124  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:39 AM
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Having seen the first two episodes, I am very impressed by this show so far. It has dived right into some of the most significant political issues of our time--institutional racism, right-wing nativism, white supremacy, police violence, the use of power, and a host of other things.

And they're (so far) doing it well by not making unambiguous white hats and black hats.

The antagonists are uneducated racists white people who if they were in charge would make the world a worse place, but it so happens that they are actually right about one significant conspiracy theory.

And all of this in my view fits in perfectly with the original tenor of the comic book, especially the development of Rorschach's ideological descendants. This is pretty much what he would have done had he survived.

They've also taken good opportunities to mix up TV tropes--the main character so far is a black woman born in Vietnam with an adoptive family who is shades-of-grey laced action "hero." And they've moved the setting to Tulsa, a "red" area in our current parlance.

Excellent so far.
  #125  
Old 10-28-2019, 10:50 AM
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The second episode didn't clear up anything. I don't like it when there's no plot. If there are plot twists along the way that's one thing, but there's no plot to be twisted right now.
  #126  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:12 AM
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So Judd had a Klan robe in his closet - and we did say that perhaps he was working both sides. I wonder why Angela survived when it looked like she was so close to death - perhaps Judd was that particular Rorschach and just knocked her out instead.

The alien device grabbing Will was a pretty fun way to end the episodes (friends in high places indeed). Also think they are setting him up to be Hooded Justice.

Really enjoyed the play (blue penis makes it appearances!) and the reveal the servants were clones. Also realized from it that Mr. Phillips is Tom Milson from Sleepy Hollow!
  #127  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:11 PM
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It looks like the prediction that "Veidt's" assistants are artificial was spot on and it is 95% confirmed that our friend in the wheel chair was Hooded Justice (although the eyes we saw did not look like a black person behind the mask to me). The play was a clever way to fit in the origin of Doctor Manhattan which I assume will become relevant when he returns.

Interesting side note. My wife knows nothing of Watchmen. Never read the comics or saw the movie and is enjoying this so far as an interesting, albeit confusing alternate world drama.

Second side note: my friend whose only experience with Watchmen is the 2009 Movie said to me jokingly, "I'll watch if it has a giant blue penis like the movie" (he did not like the movie and still calls it the movie "with the giant blue penis"). Well now I guess has to watch
  #128  
Old 10-28-2019, 12:21 PM
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So Judd had a Klan robe in his closet
It wasn't just in his closet. It was displayed like a trophy or something. I wonder whether that was just for effect -- it's more dramatic to have something displayed rather than just another outfit hanging alongside others in a closet -- or whether it has a deeper meaning.
  #129  
Old 10-28-2019, 02:05 PM
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I was extremely bothered by the incredibly awful policing in a world that seems to be a semi-fascist state. The raid on the cattle ranch was possibly the stupidest attack outside of a Dolph Lundgren action movie, and the chief's driving off by himself was so criminally idiotic that I can only believe that the whole thing is a trick and he's not dead...it.
Yeah, the Chief is apparently the only publicly known Police officer. He expects reprisals. Yet he drives off, down the only road coming from his heavily guarded home, without a escort.

And Sister Night's costume is really stupid.
  #130  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:00 PM
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...speculation: (put in spoilers for those who would prefer to follow along and enjoy each episode for what it is and don't want to play the speculation game)

SPOILER:
I'm calling it now: Irons is playing Doctor Manhattan, not Veidt. That was lampshaded earlier in the episode when Sister Night said that Doctor Manhattan "can't look like us." My theory: Manhattan's figured out a way to look like us. He built himself a castle and an army of clones. He occasionally sits around in the nude. And puts on plays that follow his origin story. Because why not?
Haven't seen the second episode yet, so this may have already been resolved, but:

SPOILER:
That's kinda what I thought; it seemed heavily implied to me---Osterman's father was a watchmaker, hence the fob watch, and the play's title, 'The Watchmaker's Son'.


Personally, I thought the first episode tried too damn hard to cast its hooks. Kinda seems catering to an audience willing to chase down niche references and clever pop-cultural touch stones, but beyond that, I'm not really seeing where it's going. But I'll give it a fair chance.
  #131  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:24 PM
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Personally, I thought the first episode tried too damn hard to cast its hooks. Kinda seems catering to an audience willing to chase down niche references and clever pop-cultural touch stones, but beyond that, I'm not really seeing where it's going. But I'll give it a fair chance.
This is what I'm talking about. I like the concept, but I want to be told a story. Don't make me figure out how everything fits together, that's the writer's job.
  #132  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:48 PM
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It's the first two chapters of a story. I don't need everything spelled out in the beginning.

And no plot? Of course there's a plot.

In an alternative reality, the police have to hide their identities under a threat from a white supremacist terrorist group. One police officer, who was injured in a mass attack on police several years ago, faked her retirement and now works as a masked detective. A recent resurgence of terrorist activity has resulted in the death of her supervisor/mentor/father figure and it looks like a relative she didn't know is involved.

That's a plot. There are other plots too. You really want the whole thing laid out for you in the first two episodes? I don't. There's enough there to keep my interest.
  #133  
Old 10-28-2019, 03:55 PM
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Yeah, the Chief is apparently the only publicly known Police officer. He expects reprisals. Yet he drives off, down the only road coming from his heavily guarded home, without a escort.
However, seeing the Klan robe in his closet in Ep 2, maybe he didn't need to fear reprisals from the Seventh Kavalry and was surprised.
  #134  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:03 PM
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It's the first two chapters of a story. I don't need everything spelled out in the beginning.

And no plot? Of course there's a plot.

In an alternative reality, the police have to hide their identities under a threat from a white supremacist terrorist group. One police officer, who was injured in a mass attack on police several years ago, faked her retirement and now works as a masked detective. A recent resurgence of terrorist activity has resulted in the death of her supervisor/mentor/father figure and it looks like a relative she didn't know is involved.

That's a plot. There are other plots too. You really want the whole thing laid out for you in the first two episodes? I don't. There's enough there to keep my interest.
I don't want the whole plot, but there's nothing there so far. What are the goals of any character? Everybody's killing each other, but to what possible end? So far we see an extension of what's been going on for years beforehand, how do we know if something new and different is occurring? We don't know this universe, both episodes have ended with unexplained and unanticipated events from unknown antagonists (if they even are antagonists), but not even a clue of what difference it makes. This is a 9 episode season, they need to explain a lot more than this by the end of the second episode.

If you like this style, that's fine, but I'm not interested in following along to just end up in a final episode cliffhanger tease for the next season without any real wrap-up of the story so far. That's just the start of a basketball game that ends up in 100-100 tie with 2 minutes left. I can just wait and watch the last 2 minutes to find out what happens in the end.

Last edited by TriPolar; 10-28-2019 at 04:05 PM.
  #135  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:06 PM
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This is a 9 episode season, they need to explain a lot more than this by the end of the second episode.
That's from some bible of television pacing or something?

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... I'm not interested in following along to just end up in a final episode cliffhanger tease for the next season with just a thin veneer of an explanation for the preceding events.
I have no reason to believe that this is the case. You must have some amazing clairvoyant ability.

It's been good so far. I'm happy to keep following for now and enjoying the ride.
  #136  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:09 PM
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It's been good so far. I'm happy to keep following for now and enjoying the ride.
I'm very happy for you.
  #137  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:14 PM
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The second episode didn't clear up anything. I don't like it when there's no plot. If there are plot twists along the way that's one thing, but there's no plot to be twisted right now.
Can you give us an example of a 2nd episode of a series that answered plot points, just so we have an idea of what sort of expectations you have here? Because that seems a little too much to ask. I tend to come back after intermission when I go to the theater.

Either way, yes - it's a 9 episode season. But it's based on a 12 issue comic series, and that seems to have stuck its landing pretty well. I'm 2 issues into my latest reread, and I gotta tell you - if you're looking for plot points to resolve quickly, maybe an Alan Moore property isn't your cup of tea.

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It looks like the prediction that "Veidt's" assistants are artificial was spot on and it is 95% confirmed that our friend in the wheel chair was Hooded Justice (although the eyes we saw did not look like a black person behind the mask to me).
Do you mean the Hooded Justice from the show-within-a-show? I'm not expecting that to be all that historically accurate.

I just realized that the protaganist in "Oklahoma!" is named Jud. Has anyone gotten either a spurned lover vibe from Judd, or even that there might have been an affair there between Judd and Angela?

Last edited by Munch; 10-28-2019 at 04:16 PM.
  #138  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:19 PM
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I just realized that the protaganist in "Oklahoma!" is named Jud.
Jud is the antagonist in "Oklahoma." Curly is the protagonist. If I recall correctly. Judd played Curly in his youth, I think.

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Has anyone gotten either a spurned lover vibe from Judd, or even that there might have been an affair there between Judd and Angela?
They're very close. I wouldn't be surprised had they had an affair, but I don't get any "spurned lover vibe."

Last edited by Acsenray; 10-28-2019 at 04:20 PM.
  #139  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:21 PM
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...if you're looking for plot points to resolve quickly, maybe an Alan Moore property isn't your cup of tea.
That may be. I'm not calling it bad, I'm saying it's not the kind of story I want to watch. I definitely prefer real movies to this kind of series.
  #140  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:27 PM
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Jud is the antagonist in "Oklahoma." Curly is the protagonist. If I recall correctly. Judd played Curly in his youth, I think.
Dammit - thank you. For some reason I always screw those up.
  #141  
Old 10-28-2019, 04:48 PM
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I'm 2 issues into my latest reread, and I gotta tell you - if you're looking for plot points to resolve quickly, maybe an Alan Moore property isn't your cup of tea.
Seriously, in the original comic series, we don't really understand what's happening with several of the plot points until the very end -- the fact that the "villain" is Ozymandias and what his plot is, what is actually going on with Doctor Manhattan, what motivates Rorschach and how his actions will affect the plot, what is going to actually happen to all the people on the streets of New York whose lives we are following, what the relevance of the pirate story that the kid is reading is to the story, what the Comedian's roles were in everyone's lives, etc.

The story of the effect of costumed vigilantes on society and a full picture of what the world is like slowly unfolds through flashbacks, newspaper articles, memoirs, etc.
  #142  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:15 PM
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The second episode didn't clear up anything. I don't like it when there's no plot. If there are plot twists along the way that's one thing, but there's no plot to be twisted right now.
I think the episode cleared up some things for me.

Like, now I understand how a black couple ended up with a white kid (or rather three white kids...that wasn't apparent in the first episode).
Now I know what "Redfordations" are and why the Tulsa riot is important to the plot.
Now I understand why Angela was so close to Don Johnson's character that the two of them were partying together on the night he was killed.
Now I know how Louis Gossett Jr.'s character is tied to Angela.

That said, I agree with you that there's a lot of confusing stuff. Since I'm a novice to everything "Watchmen", I'm still confused over the squid and the Dr. Manhattan references. And the drug store stick-up scene...I'm really hoping its relevance becomes clearer by the end of the next episode. Like you, I don't enjoy feeling so confused. But the show still manages to suck me in.

I'm actually thinking the show might be better when you can binge-watch it. Because that way a person doesn't have to wait a week scratching their head and wondering if they missed something.
  #143  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:20 PM
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I'm actually thinking the show might be better when you can binge-watch it. Because that way a person doesn't have to wait a week scratching their head and wondering if they missed something.
I was just thinking the same thing.
  #144  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:23 PM
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According to one of the "memos" in the link above, certain tech was restricted back in the 90s. So we can expect to see a lack of computer/internet/cell phone tech.
But they have x-ray specs? And holograms? And floating erector sets?
  #145  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:38 PM
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But they have x-ray specs? And holograms? And floating erector sets?
From what I recall, a lot of the technology in the world, like pollution-free cars, is basically “gifted” by Dr. Manhattan, so there isn’t necessarily a full range of technologies as we know them.
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  #146  
Old 11-01-2019, 09:40 PM
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I really like it so far -- great performances and very intriguing use of different story elements like the "American Hero Story" TV show and flashbacks. Wonderful set-up, and hopefully it continues on a coherent path. Starting out a new show like gangbusters, like this one, is really hard... and it's even harder to keep that going and wrap up story lines at the same level of quality.
  #147  
Old 11-01-2019, 11:55 PM
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My only issue is... When did Louis Gossett Jr. Get so old?

So far, in all seriousness, I'm really enjoying it. Never read the original material, though I did like the movie (seriously, whatever flaws the movie might have, that opening is probably one of the most well done I've ever seen...)
  #148  
Old 11-03-2019, 11:13 PM
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Absolutely loved Jean Smart as Laurie Blake / Silk Spectre! And the car landing just in front of her (like a brick?) 40 seconds after the call ended, lol!


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  #149  
Old 11-04-2019, 01:21 AM
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However, seeing the Klan robe in his closet in Ep 2, maybe he didn't need to fear reprisals from the Seventh Kavalry and was surprised.
Well, that Robe was too damn obvious. A Plant? A trophy? A costume to get into meetings?
  #150  
Old 11-04-2019, 10:24 AM
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Another great episode, in my opinion. Lots of nice references back to the comic (Laurie's comment of "when my dad was murdered, they found a secret compartment in his closet, so I always check"), and solid echoes in terms of dialogue and framing (mostly with Veidt, it seems).

I think that Veidt is on Mars, being held captive by Manhattan. He's testing homemade spacesuits so that he can confront him. Maybe the cloned servants are being provided by Manhattan? Because if Veidt could create them himself, what would he need a spacesuit for (or rather, why would he have difficulty creating one)?

Last edited by Munch; 11-04-2019 at 10:25 AM.
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