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  #251  
Old 07-14-2017, 02:31 AM
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Well, that narrows things down!

Does it relate to the name of the town/city?
  #252  
Old 07-14-2017, 02:43 AM
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It's at this point I find these things tedious. You already know it's a blind guy who hears a bell that tells him it's safe to move but it's not the bell he thought it was. After this it's just nit-picking details and I've heard the same thing more than one way and you could make up more variations like one with a train.

Solution follows:

SPOILER:
It's a blind man walking near the shore following a friend who rings a bell. He hears the sound of a bell buoy and walks towards it over a cliff. That's the way I first heard it.

Okay, same problem with music stopping, why would his friend take him near the cliff in the first place? So there's another version where they are supposed to be swimming in the ocean instead. The blind man hears the buoy and starts swimming toward it. Then he hears his friends bell and swims towards that. Then back and forth until eventually he's moved to far toward the buoy and doesn't have enough strength to swim back to shore.

Or maybe he steps in front of a bicycle that has a bell. Or a train. Once you get the basic premise that it's a blind guy following a bell it's all pretty much the same.
Ok, I gave up and looked. And glad I gave up - that's a completely stupid solution. The idea of a blind person being led around for a walk by a friend walking ahead ringing a bell is contrived and silly, it doesn't happen. Even if they did (as you say) the friend would hardly lead them close to a precarious cliff; and even if they did that, a large distant bell does not sound at all like a small nearby bell. I can't be bothered to figure out how to spoiler this, it's really not worth spoilering.

Last edited by Riemann; 07-14-2017 at 02:46 AM.
  #253  
Old 07-14-2017, 03:27 AM
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Well, that narrows things down!

Does it relate to the name of the town/city?
Yes.
  #254  
Old 07-14-2017, 03:58 AM
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Did something happen once that could have gone 2 ways. the way it did go means Wintergreen is valid, but if the other thing had happened Miami would be ad the expense of Wintergreen?

For example if the valid thing was names shared by US Presidents and in 1924 there was an election and David Winter beat Charles Miam
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:02 AM
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Could something happen today that would make Wintergreen invalid but Miami valid?
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:09 AM
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Ah, very good question.
  #257  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:01 AM
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Is it a picture of Wintergreen?
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:06 AM
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Ok, I gave up and looked. And glad I gave up - that's a completely stupid solution. The idea of a blind person being led around for a walk by a friend walking ahead ringing a bell is contrived and silly, it doesn't happen. Even if they did (as you say) the friend would hardly lead them close to a precarious cliff; and even if they did that, a large distant bell does not sound at all like a small nearby bell. I can't be bothered to figure out how to spoiler this, it's really not worth spoilering.
Blind people are actually led around by people ringing a bell. Would a bell buoy sound like that bell? Probably not. But all of the classic versions of this game I've heard of, and even the modern ones, have this naivety to them, something like Victorian mystery stories. Such absurd things do happen in life, some people are stupid, but I don't find them a good basis for riddling either.

OTOH I recall Biotop's riddle about a number that when spelled out has a certain number of vowels in it. Brilliant, devious, and what I consider a true riddle because the answer could be derived from the information provided in the riddle itself.

Last edited by TriPolar; 07-14-2017 at 10:10 AM.
  #259  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:17 AM
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Blind people are actually led around by people ringing a bell....
Really? If that's the case I apologize for my reaction. But I have never heard of such a thing. It seems ridiculous to me. If were going for a stroll with a blind friend I would walk alongside them and talk to them, just like any other friend, with an occasional word of guidance about what's ahead.
  #260  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:39 AM
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Did something happen once that could have gone 2 ways. the way it did go means Wintergreen is valid, but if the other thing had happened Miami would be ad the expense of Wintergreen?

For example if the valid thing was names shared by US Presidents and in 1924 there was an election and David Winter beat Charles Miam
Yes.
  #261  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:39 AM
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Here's an original:

I live about five miles (as the crow flies) from Wintergreen, Virginia. The town is little more than a resort. It's a place for skiing in the winter and hiking in the summer. It's got golf, vacation rentals, and lots of pretty views. It also has something in common with just a very few other towns/cities in the United States. This common factor is shared by Johnstown, Pennsylvania, as well as Omaha, Nebraska and Spokane, Washington. There are a few others as well.

One city that does not share the common factor is Miami, Florida. But here's the thing: If Wintergreen, Virginia didn't have the common factor, then Miami, Florida would!

What is the common factor?

A WAG, but Wintergreen, Virginia shares the vowels "a" and "e" with other named cities, but not Miami. If Wintergreen didn't have that common factor, then Miami would have it by sharing "a" and "o".
  #262  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:40 AM
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Could something happen today that would make Wintergreen invalid but Miami valid?
No.
  #263  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:42 AM
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A WAG, but Wintergreen, Virginia shares the vowels "a" and "e" with other named cities, but not Miami. If Wintergreen didn't have that common factor, then Miami would have it by sharing "a" and "o".
No.
  #264  
Old 07-14-2017, 10:45 AM
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Is it a picture of Wintergreen?

(Heh heh) No.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:48 AM
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If you were to tell us the criteria right now, would a reasonable American ("the man on the Brooklyn omnibus") be able to figure out whether Wintergreen or Miami was valid without needing to look up information he wouldn't know?
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:04 AM
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Does the common factor relate to anything at all other than names?
If yes, does the common factor relate to any property of the cities on the list themselves?
If a person had exhaustive knowledge of any single city, but no knowledge at all of other cities, would that person be able to determine if that single city should be on the list?
If a person had exhaustive knowledge both of a single city, and exhaustive knowledge of some other set of cities, but had some nonempty set of cities of which he had no knowledge, would that person be able to determine if that single city should be on the list?
Is "...in the United States" explicitly part of the criteria for being on this list?
Absent any specific criteria to that effect, or with it being replaced by the name of another country, is it possible for a city in any other country to be on this list, or one directly analogous to it?
Is it possible specifically for a city in England? Germany? Greece? Israel? China?
  #267  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:07 AM
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Have these places hosted some event; and in the year that Wintergreen hosted it, Miami was the runner-up choice?
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:07 AM
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If you were to tell us the criteria right now, would a reasonable American ("the man on the Brooklyn omnibus") be able to figure out whether Wintergreen or Miami was valid without needing to look up information he wouldn't know?
No. Probably not. Depends on who you asked.

I hope the man would agree that the lateral thinking riddle was still fair and solvable without using google.
  #269  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:11 AM
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....I hope the man would agree that the lateral thinking riddle was still fair and solvable without using google.
Do you mean it's solvable for the average person even without asking you questions?
Or are you saying just questions, no google (which I thought was pretty much the ground rules for these)?
  #270  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:14 AM
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Have these places hosted some event; and in the year that Wintergreen hosted it, Miami was the runner-up choice?
ETA this makes no sense - you told us that it's connected to the name of the place, right?
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:20 AM
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Would a Wintergreen, Ohio and a Miami. Kentucky (or any other state) have the same statuses?
  #272  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:24 AM
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Does the common factor relate to anything at all other than names?
If yes, does the common factor relate to any property of the cities on the list themselves?
If a person had exhaustive knowledge of any single city, but no knowledge at all of other cities, would that person be able to determine if that single city should be on the list?
If a person had exhaustive knowledge both of a single city, and exhaustive knowledge of some other set of cities, but had some nonempty set of cities of which he had no knowledge, would that person be able to determine if that single city should be on the list?
Is "...in the United States" explicitly part of the criteria for being on this list?
Absent any specific criteria to that effect, or with it being replaced by the name of another country, is it possible for a city in any other country to be on this list, or one directly analogous to it?
Is it possible specifically for a city in England? Germany? Greece? Israel? China?

Lots of questions...


1. No. The names themselves put the cities on the list.

2. No. See #1. No physical property of the city itself matters.

3. Yes. Knowledge of whether a city is on the list is not dependent of other cities.

4. Yes. Exhaustive knowledge of the city itself is irrelevant.

5. No. The U.S. part is not required.

6 +7. Yes., theoretically any city anywhere could make the list.
  #273  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:25 AM
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Have these places hosted some event; and in the year that Wintergreen hosted it, Miami was the runner-up choice?
No.
  #274  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:28 AM
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Would a Wintergreen, Ohio and a Miami. Kentucky (or any other state) have the same statuses?
Yes.
  #275  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:38 AM
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Do you mean it's solvable for the average person even without asking you questions?
Or are you saying just questions, no google (which I thought was pretty much the ground rules for these)?
No. Most people would probably not be able to get it without asking some questions.

I actually sent an email to the Wintergreen resort last night and posed to them the riddle. They will probably think it is Spam or think WTF and hit "DELETE." But maybe I will get lucky and the person in charge of reading their e-mails is a fellow puzzle lover!
  #276  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Quoth Biotop:

6 +7. Yes., theoretically any city anywhere could make the list.
To clarify, the written language of Israel does not have letters for vowels, and the written language of China does not have letters at all. Does this answer still stand?
  #277  
Old 07-14-2017, 11:51 AM
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Really? If that's the case I apologize for my reaction. But I have never heard of such a thing. It seems ridiculous to me. If were going for a stroll with a blind friend I would walk alongside them and talk to them, just like any other friend, with an occasional word of guidance about what's ahead.
I went to the National Federation of the Blind convention about 18 years ago. I was there as a Deaf-blind interpreter. There were hundreds of blind people-- maybe thousands. There were people with canes, people with all breeds of dogs (but mostly Retrievers), and people with sighted guides whose arms they held. I did not observe one person being led by a bell.

FWIW, I did not see one person using the "clicker" method either, and I think that pretty much just happens on TV.

I did see some small children with bells on them-- they were children with blind parents.
  #278  
Old 07-14-2017, 12:02 PM
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To clarify, the written language of Israel does not have letters for vowels, and the written language of China does not have letters at all. Does this answer still stand?
Not probable to happen I grant you.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:10 PM
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Is the significance of the name related in any way to some "technical" aspect of the way the name is written/spelled, such as the combination or pattern of letters?

Or does the combination of letters per se not matter?
Does the name for each town also apply to someone/something else?
Is the manner in which the name for the town arose or was chosen significant?

Last edited by Riemann; 07-14-2017 at 12:10 PM.
  #280  
Old 07-14-2017, 12:20 PM
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Is the significance of the name related in any way to some "technical" aspect of the way the name is written/spelled, such as the combination or pattern of letters?

Or does the combination of letters per se not matter?
Does the name for each town also apply to someone/something else?
Is the manner in which the name for the town arose or was chosen significant?
No to "technical"

Yes. The letter combination does NOT matter

Yes to name applying elsewhere

No to the manner in which the town name arose.
  #281  
Old 07-14-2017, 12:26 PM
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I went to the National Federation of the Blind convention about 18 years ago. I was there as a Deaf-blind interpreter. There were hundreds of blind people-- maybe thousands. There were people with canes, people with all breeds of dogs (but mostly Retrievers), and people with sighted guides whose arms they held. I did not observe one person being led by a bell.....
Probably their friends were all told to leave the bells that they usually follow at home. Imagine the chaos with everyone following the wrong bells. People would be walking into traffic, falling down open manholes, falling off balconies. Bellpocalypse.

Last edited by Riemann; 07-14-2017 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:32 PM
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Was the name Miami "runner up" or "second in the ranking" on the occasion that the name Wintergreen "won" or was first in some ranking?

Last edited by Riemann; 07-14-2017 at 12:33 PM.
  #283  
Old 07-14-2017, 12:33 PM
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Was the name Miami "runner up" or "second in the ranking" on the occasion that Wintergreen "won" or was first in some ranking?
Yes.
  #284  
Old 07-14-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
I went to the National Federation of the Blind convention about 18 years ago. I was there as a Deaf-blind interpreter. There were hundreds of blind people-- maybe thousands. There were people with canes, people with all breeds of dogs (but mostly Retrievers), and people with sighted guides whose arms they held. I did not observe one person being led by a bell.

FWIW, I did not see one person using the "clicker" method either, and I think that pretty much just happens on TV.

I did see some small children with bells on them-- they were children with blind parents.
Quote:
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Probably their friends were all told to leave the bells that they usually follow at home. Imagine the chaos with everyone following the wrong bells. People would be walking into traffic, falling down open manholes, falling off balconies. Bellpocalypse.
I have never seen nor heard it done myself, but heard and read about it. I always assumed it was the kind of thing done on an open field or well distinguished path, and certainly not near a cliff. So the idea of a blind man following someone with a bell is minimally plausible. And kind of old fashioned too. I wouldn't be surprised if the blind man and the bell story goes way back, and the tightrope walker story as well.
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:41 PM
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So to confirm, each of the town names "won" or was ranked first in something at some time?
Is this ranking a periodic event, e.g. annual?
Is the ranking an objective property of the name?
Or is it a subjective choice, chosen by some group of people in some way?
  #286  
Old 07-14-2017, 01:44 PM
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So to confirm, each of the town names "won" or was ranked first in something at some time?
Is this ranking a periodic event, e.g. annual?
Is the ranking an objective property of the name?
Or is it a subjective choice, chosen by some group of people in some way?
Yes. Each of the Town names won or was ranked first in something at some time.

Yes it is a periodic event.

Yes on objective (if I understand the question correctly)

No on subjective.



Sorry I have to go to work now. I will try to answer more questions at lunch break if the solution has not already been posted.
  #287  
Old 07-14-2017, 02:31 PM
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This is more of a challenge than a riddle. There isn't a single right or wrong answer, but better or worse suggestions.

Find an English language sentence with the greatest proportion of apostrophes to letters.


I've got a good one in mind, but can anyone do better?
  #288  
Old 07-14-2017, 02:54 PM
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I guess we'd better tag our posts if we're doing two simultaneously.

Biotop:

So based on the answers, I have this general formulation, is this correct?

In [a certain year], the town name Wintergreen/Johnstown/Omaha/Spokane was also the name of the [something-other-than-a-town] that was [most numerous / rarest / largest / smallest... something quantifiable].
  #289  
Old 07-14-2017, 03:13 PM
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Aha!

I see that Wintergreen was the name of the horse that won the 1909 Kentucky Derby. The runner up was

SPOILER:
Miami
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:37 PM
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So just to put a period on it... All those cities share a name with a horse that won the Kentucky Derby. Great puzzle. You also could have used Needles, CA
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:40 PM
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Aha!

I see that Wintergreen was the name of the horse that won the 1909 Kentucky Derby. The runner up was

SPOILER:
Miami
Googling the names of all the towns gives you that answer instantly. The idea of this was that we try to get there without Google. Never mind.

Great question, Biotop.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:53 PM
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Googling the names of all the towns gives you that answer instantly. The idea of this was that we try to get there without Google. Never mind.

Great question, Biotop.
I didn't. Based on the answers previously given I thought Wintergreen sounded like a horse so I googled "wintergreen race horse" which confirmed what I thought. Sue me for not having memorized the 1909 Kentucky Derby winners.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:57 PM
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I don't think it would have been possible to get there without Googling, though.
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Old 07-14-2017, 04:20 PM
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I didn't. Based on the answers previously given I thought Wintergreen sounded like a horse...
Fair enough. Apologies for doubting you.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:42 PM
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I'll go. Again, if you know it, don't play. I like this one, though I don't think it is very hard. It's a situational one, which I find very fun.

A man is at dinner, reading the news. He sees a headline, "Death At Sea". He knows immediately that a murder has been committed. Explain.

I'll take yes/no questions.
  #296  
Old 07-14-2017, 07:47 PM
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Is the man eating dinner at home?

If no, is he at sea eating dinner?
  #297  
Old 07-14-2017, 07:51 PM
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1. Is the man eating dinner at home?

2. is he at sea eating dinner?
1. Yes.

2. No.
  #298  
Old 07-14-2017, 07:58 PM
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1) Is the fact that he's (a)eating (b)specifically dinner relevant?

2) Does he know the victim?

3) Does he live in a houseboat, lighthouse, or some unusual, water-related, structure?
  #299  
Old 07-14-2017, 08:38 PM
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1) Is the fact that he's (a)eating (b)specifically dinner relevant?

2) Does he know the victim?

3) Does he live in a houseboat, lighthouse, or some unusual, water-related, structure?
1. No.

2. No.

3. No.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:53 PM
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Did he murder the victim?
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