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  #12201  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:53 PM
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If Mueller was a football player they'd call him Butterfingers.
  #12202  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:55 PM
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Mueller is a 75 year old man. If he was a football player they'd call him Porcelain.

Seriously people, use facts when constructing your elaborate fantasies!
  #12203  
Old 11-08-2019, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Mueller is a 75 year old man. If he was a football player they'd call him Porcelain.

Seriously people, use facts when constructing your elaborate fantasies!
He got cowed by a bully patriarchy, and his own internalized version of it? That is not elaborate, nor a fantasy.

Only one poster said Mueller was dirty. But more have just said that he dropped the ball on democracy, by our lights, and it would be fair to say so out loud, in the aim of getting to justice.

So go for it. Lay out how it would go if rm demanded an interview. Would dt fire him? Would it go to the scotus? If people are retarded for having a divergent view from yourself, on a matter of historical speculation, then don't you need to lay it out? You are the one who knows ("excitedly", in fact) not us.

Last edited by drad dog; 11-08-2019 at 08:33 PM.
  #12204  
Old 11-09-2019, 12:30 PM
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Well said.

I'm dismayed by watching formerly sensible posters fly off the deep end.
It's disgust and fatigue. We are sick and tired of the Trump Shit Show and the GOP Toady Shit Show. It never ends, and it keeps getting worse. We've had enough. Where in the blue fucking hell does it end??
  #12205  
Old 11-09-2019, 05:49 PM
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It's disgust and fatigue. We are sick and tired of the Trump Shit Show and the GOP Toady Shit Show. It never ends, and it keeps getting worse. We've had enough. Where in the blue fucking hell does it end??
I abso-fucking-lutely understand! And thank you for that totally honest answer. I believe you. I am disgusted and worn out. I've had enough... but there's more to come.

I don't know where it ends, but I know we can't let them make us lose our shit, too.
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  #12206  
Old Yesterday, 10:46 AM
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Latest from Stone trial (via Darren Samuelsohn, Politico):
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DOJ also says it still wants to show the Godfather II clip. Stone objects. Judge Jackson is inclined to show jurors the transcript from the key scene.
  #12207  
Old Yesterday, 11:58 AM
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Bradley P. Moss Tweets about Rick Gates' testimony from Roger Stone's trial today.

Quote:
Trump denied in writing and under oath to Mueller any recollection of ever discussing WikiLeaks with Stone or being aware of Stone discussing WikiLeaks with the campaign.

Gates testified he was in the car with Trump when he Trump talked to Stone about it.
  #12208  
Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM
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I'm pretty sure that banana Republicans will say that perjury isn't an impeachable offense.
  #12209  
Old Yesterday, 12:25 PM
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I'm pretty sure that banana Republicans will say that perjury isn't an impeachable offense.
Never, in the history of the Republican party, have they ever had an issue with the president lying under oath.

On a completely unrelated note, here's Sen. McConnell's closed-door impeachment statement.

Quote:
I firmly believe that the evidence establishes beyond a reasonable doubt that William Jefferson Clinton made statements to the federal grand jury regarding the nature of his relationship with a subordinate government employee and the purpose of his post-deposition conversation with a loyal secretary that were false, misleading, and perjurious, and warrant removal from office. Thus, I find the President guilty under Article I.
  #12210  
Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM
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People should not dis Mueller IMHO.

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Originally Posted by wiki
A graduate of Princeton University and New York University, Mueller served as a Marine Corps officer during the Vietnam War, receiving a Bronze Star for heroism and a Purple Heart. He subsequently attended the University of Virginia School of Law.
Those are pretty good credentials. Few could match them.

Ya know, sometimes ya just have had enough shit.
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  #12211  
Old Yesterday, 04:00 PM
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I abso-fucking-lutely understand! And thank you for that totally honest answer. I believe you. I am disgusted and worn out. I've had enough... but there's more to come.

I don't know where it ends, but I know we can't let them make us lose our shit, too.
Go ahead and lose our shit, I say. The fact that people are losing their shit doesn't mean people have thrown their hands up in the air and checked out of democracy; it's just the opposite. It's exasperation. It's...rage.

And rage is what this country was founded on.
  #12212  
Old Yesterday, 05:15 PM
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Go ahead and lose our shit, I say. The fact that people are losing their shit doesn't mean people have thrown their hands up in the air and checked out of democracy; it's just the opposite. It's exasperation. It's...rage.

And rage is what this country was founded on.
By "losing our shit" I mean becoming irrational, out of control, destructive of those on the same side, and attacking each other, for example, accusing Mueller of being in a conspiracy to protect DJT because he didn't say the right words.

Expressing rage and disgust, yes--that is called for. Definitely. But not against those working and hoping for the same outcome, namely the removal of the Former President from office. Let's not devour each other in our rage.

I wonder if what is needed is mass demonstrations, a la the civil rights movement and anti-Vietnam war protests. I read a headline somewhere today (can't remember where) asking why the mainstream media aren't calling for the Former President's resignation. Is everyone still being too polite? Are we still expecting the other side to play fair, all evidence to the contrary?
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Last edited by ThelmaLou; Yesterday at 05:16 PM.
  #12213  
Old Yesterday, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
By "losing our shit" I mean becoming irrational, out of control, destructive of those on the same side, and attacking each other, for example, accusing Mueller of being in a conspiracy to protect DJT because he didn't say the right words.

Expressing rage and disgust, yes--that is called for. Definitely. But not against those working and hoping for the same outcome, namely the removal of the Former President from office. Let's not devour each other in our rage.

I wonder if what is needed is mass demonstrations, a la the civil rights movement and anti-Vietnam war protests. I read a headline somewhere today (can't remember where) asking why the mainstream media aren't calling for the Former President's resignation. Is everyone still being too polite? Are we still expecting the other side to play fair, all evidence to the contrary?
Only one person said Mueller was a bad person, who might be part of a conspiracy, and I don't know that I've seen them post lately. We all know he's a human being though, he's not daddy, and he is not above criticism, any more than dt is AFAICS.

He had a long honeymoon for me and progressives. Nobody has been cruel to him here. You don't seem to want it to end though. It's time to take stock and figure out the next thing. He's not a bad person but it's a new situation, and he hadn't ever seen it before. Just like we hadn't.
  #12214  
Old Yesterday, 06:35 PM
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People should not dis Mueller IMHO.



Those are pretty good credentials. Few could match them.

Ya know, sometimes ya just have had enough shit.
It's possible to believe, as I do, that a good and honorable man has lost a step or two in recent years at his age. During his hearing, it was difficult for me to avoid thinking that he was a step behind.
  #12215  
Old Yesterday, 07:29 PM
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It is a new one on all of us and Mueller too. It was a stand off at many times and in ways that were so subtle that you didn't know what was happening. And things could change with a tweet! We still don't know where we are at civically, every one of us.

But for this thread we need to agree we actually have got all the answers and it is too dangerous to discuss it, and no bad words about rm? OK.

There is a direct line from the failure of dt to be interviewed, to Cory Lewandowski practically spitting on the committee a week or so ago. The Ukraine call was the day after the rmr dropped. It's been a duel all the way, and dt hasn't lost yet.
  #12216  
Old Yesterday, 07:52 PM
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It's clear that Trump was emboldened by the fact that Mueller's report didn't immediately flip the republicans over to an impeachment position. However I'm not convinced that Mueller attempting to get an in-person interview with Trump would have effected that, or that there was any different way that Mueller could have presented himself and his report to get the party of traitors to stop supporting the guy they already knew was a criminal going in.

Of course, since we're talking about speculative alternate universes here, I don't think it can be proved either way. Perhaps if Mueller had cussed a bunch Trump would have been impeached by sundown. Who knows?
  #12217  
Old Yesterday, 07:55 PM
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It is a new one on all of us and Mueller too. It was a stand off at many times and in ways that were so subtle that you didn't know what was happening. And things could change with a tweet! We still don't know where we are at civically, every one of us.

But for this thread we need to agree we actually have got all the answers and it is too dangerous to discuss it, and no bad words about rm? OK.

There is a direct line from the failure of dt to be interviewed, to Cory Lewandowski practically spitting on the committee a week or so ago. The Ukraine call was the day after the rmr dropped. It's been a duel all the way, and dt hasn't lost yet.
You keep trying to draw some drop-dead nexus between one thing and the other, and it's complete bullshit as if Trump was emboldened on July 25, 2019, and not beforehand.

The earliest known contact where Rudy Giuliani sent his henchmen to meet with Ukrainian officials was clear back in 2018. You believe Giuliani was doing this because... why? On his own initiative, nothing to do with Trump? No, wait, we don't have to guess. Per Wikipedia:

Quote:
In 2018, Parnas and Fruman were sent by Giuliani to Ukraine to extract damaging information on Trump's U.S. political rivals. "Their mission was to find people and information that could be used to undermine the Special Counsel's investigation, and also to damage former Vice President Joseph R. Biden." Both were also at the center of the pro-Trump forces' push to remove the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine because her loyalty to President Trump was deemed deficient "as he pursued his agenda there". Also, over the course of a year beginning in 2018, the two brought Giuliani to Ukrainians who were amenable to promoting "a largely unsubstantiated narrative about the Bidens". These willing Ukrainians included Yuriy Lutsenko, a former Prosecutor General of Ukraine, who was essential to aiding Giuliani's efforts to produce damaging information.
(Emphasis mine)

It's also painfully obvious you have no idea how the whole subpoena thing would have gone. Mueller would have wasted literally years trying to obtain testimony that would never have consisted of more than, "I assert my rights under the Fifth Amendment." I'm sure you'd have been the first one whining if Mueller had in fact pursued Trump's (non) testimony and not submitted his report until, oh, May 2021.
  #12218  
Old Yesterday, 08:00 PM
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It's possible to believe, as I do, that a good and honorable man has lost a step or two in recent years at his age. During his hearing, it was difficult for me to avoid thinking that he was a step behind.
You and I had the same take. But it in no way invalidates the good, thorough and extremely difficult work he accomplished under nearly impossible conditions, and that's the important thing to me. The failure is in the citizenry that chooses to not read and comprehend what he tried so hard to tell us.

Even in his brief press conference, his primary points were that 1) His testimony is the report; 2) every American should be concerned with what happened; and 3) (for fuck's sake) read the report.
  #12219  
Old Yesterday, 08:00 PM
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By "losing our shit" I mean becoming irrational, out of control, destructive of those on the same side, and attacking each other, for example, accusing Mueller of being in a conspiracy to protect DJT because he didn't say the right words.

Expressing rage and disgust, yes--that is called for. Definitely. But not against those working and hoping for the same outcome, namely the removal of the Former President from office. Let's not devour each other in our rage.

I wonder if what is needed is mass demonstrations, a la the civil rights movement and anti-Vietnam war protests. I read a headline somewhere today (can't remember where) asking why the mainstream media aren't calling for the Former President's resignation. Is everyone still being too polite? Are we still expecting the other side to play fair, all evidence to the contrary?
The mainstream media I've been reading have pretty much walked right up that line. I've read numerous articles in the WaPo, NYT, and other mainstream outlets essentially saying the same thing they have for the past few years, which is that he's corrupt, he lies, he's unfit and all of that -- it's not fundamentally changing anything and it won't.

And as I've tried to explain before, the reason it won't matter what the MSM post is that it's the people, it is us, it is the guy sitting next to you in the bar, or living above you in apartment 4A. Or working in the cubicle next to you. Until they change, until they 'get it'...forget it.

I honestly believe the average American no longer qualifies for a democracy, which is not to say that I want something other than a democracy. I simply mean that the average American no longer really has democratic values, no longer appreciates and understands the value of electing someone who values institutions. About half this country believes that as long as they have a job and/or as long as their cultural supremacy is respected, that's good enough -- never mind the fact that at this rate, with trillion with a fucking capital T dollar deficits, we're racing toward a dark choice between social security & medicare, the military, or default.

I'll point out something else that I've pointed out before but needs pointing out again: more people in this country trust the military as an institution than they do the press and the very people they vote for. Their own instincts hold what is inherently the greatest threat to a democratic regime in higher regard than they do the mechanisms by which they can participate in their own self-government. This has been shown in poll after poll. I am not pointing that out to critique the military; I am pointing that out to illustrate how the average person who is voting is quite likely to vote to end their own self-rule. That is almost always how democracies die, and that is how ours will die.
  #12220  
Old Yesterday, 08:06 PM
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Missed the edit window but wanted to add:

Sorry for the thread jack: I agree that this is not on Mueller. He's in unfamiliar territory just as we are. I never for a moment disagree with his ultimate conclusion: we've been looking for a superman to save us from ourselves, and Mueller ain't it. Didn't volunteer for the job. We're the one who put Mueller, Brennan, Strzok, McCabe, Rosenstein, and other faithful public servants in front of the bus with their hands tied behind their backs. That we should expect individual people to save the country from the collective stupidity of 63 million voters is fucking guffaw-ish.
  #12221  
Old Yesterday, 08:14 PM
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You keep trying to draw some drop-dead nexus between one thing and the other, and it's complete bullshit as if Trump was emboldened on July 25, 2019, and not beforehand.

The earliest known contact where Rudy Giuliani sent his henchmen to meet with Ukrainian officials was clear back in 2018. You believe Giuliani was doing this because... why? On his own initiative, nothing to do with Trump? No, wait, we don't have to guess. Per Wikipedia:

(Emphasis mine)

It's also painfully obvious you have no idea how the whole subpoena thing would have gone. Mueller would have wasted literally years trying to obtain testimony that would never have consisted of more than, "I assert my rights under the Fifth Amendment." I'm sure you'd have been the first one whining if Mueller had in fact pursued Trump's (non) testimony and not submitted his report until, oh, May 2021.
We don't know, you included. Courts expedite stuff in the emergent national interest. We survived 2000.

IMO trinp is a fascist and needs to be challenged on every front in public. The lack of this I think has been harmful to democracy.

We need stronger enforcement and media coverage. I honestly don't know if democracy can survive the loss of the fairness doctrine. If you compare 1973 to now it's obvious. No one could have predicted the gaslighting and the ease with which it is occurring in 2019. Trump needs to be trolled and challenged until he loses his shit, and it should have started on day one.

Last edited by drad dog; Yesterday at 08:16 PM.
  #12222  
Old Yesterday, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
It's clear that Trump was emboldened by the fact that Mueller's report didn't immediately flip the republicans over to an impeachment position. However I'm not convinced that Mueller attempting to get an in-person interview with Trump would have effected that, or that there was any different way that Mueller could have presented himself and his report to get the party of traitors to stop supporting the guy they already knew was a criminal going in.

Of course, since we're talking about speculative alternate universes here, I don't think it can be proved either way. Perhaps if Mueller had cussed a bunch Trump would have been impeached by sundown. Who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
You keep trying to draw some drop-dead nexus between one thing and the other, and it's complete bullshit as if Trump was emboldened on July 25, 2019, and not beforehand.

...<snip>...

It's also painfully obvious you have no idea how the whole subpoena thing would have gone. Mueller would have wasted literally years trying to obtain testimony that would never have consisted of more than, "I assert my rights under the Fifth Amendment." I'm sure you'd have been the first one whining if Mueller had in fact pursued Trump's (non) testimony and not submitted his report until, oh, May 2021.
Correct. Times two.
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