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  #351  
Old 09-12-2019, 08:30 AM
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The specifics of who may have lied aren't even particularly important, IMO -- what's important is that the Democrats, for some reason, had some trust that the Republicans would put aside politics for the 9/11 remembrance ceremonies. This was massively foolish, and hopefully they have learned this lesson forever. It doesn't really matter why they had this trust -- such trust was incredibly dumb no matter what assurances were given.

Of course Republicans can't be trusted to honor things like 9/11 remembrance ceremonies, or other moments of patriotism and honor. Why should they? What do they have to lose? They (Republicans in office, and many or most Trump supporters) have shown again and again that things like patriotism and honor (in addition to things like protecting women and girls, fighting bigotry and hatred, and even protecting American democracy) are far, far less important to them than things like harming migrants, protecting rapists and sexual assaulters, and angering liberals and progressives.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-12-2019 at 08:33 AM.
  #352  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The specifics of who may have lied aren't even particularly important, IMO -- what's important is that the Democrats, for some reason, had some trust that the Republicans would put aside politics for the 9/11 remembrance ceremonies. This was massively foolish, and hopefully they have learned this lesson forever. It doesn't really matter why they had this trust -- such trust was incredibly dumb no matter what assurances were given.

Of course Republicans can't be trusted to honor things like 9/11 remembrance ceremonies, or other moments of patriotism and honor. Why should they? What do they have to lose? They (Republicans in office, and many or most Trump supporters) have shown again and again that things like patriotism and honor (in addition to things like protecting women and girls, fighting bigotry and hatred, and even protecting American democracy) are far, far less important to them than things like harming migrants, protecting rapists and sexual assaulters, and angering liberals and progressives.
Pretty much.

The goal here is power at any cost. The republicans who do care about politics are, at this point, not going to hear about this story (because far-right news media is not going to cover this), going to just take the republicans at their word that the democrats did something stupid without being lied to, or who are so cynical or dishonest or authoritarian or partisan that they just don't care, and are indeed happy that the republicans were smart enough to trick the democrats by lying to them about not voting on 9/11.

What democrats need to understand is that this is what we're dealing with. These are not people who are interested in fair play. They do not care what norms they break. They will lie, cheat, defraud, and more for the sake of political power. And anyone thinking that their promises are worth a damn needs to wake the fuck up.
  #353  
Old 09-12-2019, 12:09 PM
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I think it's perfectly clear what happened from the original article:
Your interpretation wilfully ignores the fact that the Democrats were taken by surprise and outraged by the Republicans' unexpected vote. You can't plausibly explain that without acknowledging that their Republican colleagues deliberately tried to fool them into thinking that there would be no vote on the budget override that day, and then taunted them about not "coming in to work".

The Democrats' only mistake was in thinking that the Republicans wouldn't resort to dirty tricks to sneak through a legislative decision that they couldn't achieve by fair means. Doubtless the Democrats will know better next time they consider whether it's wise to trust Republican integrity.
  #354  
Old 09-12-2019, 12:27 PM
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Your interpretation wilfully ignores the fact that the Democrats were taken by surprise and outraged by the Republicans' unexpected vote. ...
I didn't ignore it. I acknowledged it and addressed it. The rest of the dem caucus was surprised because Jackson, their leader, had mistakenly told them there would be no votes on Wednesday. Their mistake was trusting Jackson.
  #355  
Old 09-12-2019, 12:36 PM
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Dems didn't show up for work because Jackson (a dem) told them there wouldn't be any votes. He thought Lewis (a Republican) had told him that when Lewis had actually told him that there wouldn't be votes on two particular "mini-budget" bills:
*cough* Next time, ignite your gaslight; all it's doing is stinking up the place....
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  #356  
Old 09-12-2019, 01:12 PM
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HD's nonsense aside gerrymandering continues apace. Check out the maps specifically. A district that was gerrymandered Republican has become a primarily urban, Democratic district. The current representative from the district comes in and redraws the line, making it a minority-urban, majority-rural district, both dividing up the urban vote and increasing his own chances of re-election.

I trust the court is also watching.
  #357  
Old 09-12-2019, 01:27 PM
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HD's nonsense aside gerrymandering continues apace. Check out the maps specifically. A district that was gerrymandered Republican has become a primarily urban, Democratic district. The current representative from the district comes in and redraws the line, making it a minority-urban, majority-rural district, both dividing up the urban vote and increasing his own chances of re-election.

I trust the court is also watching.
They're also risking the 2020 primaries being delayed by doing this shit. They've been given a deadline of September 18 to get this done, and if the maps they submit aren't acceptable to the court, that's what's going to happen.

I'm trying to think if there's some advantage for them to having a delay happen, but I guess I'm not sneaky enough by nature to think of anything. I think it's just going to increase the number of people who are thoroughly exasperated with them.
  #358  
Old 09-12-2019, 01:32 PM
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They're also risking the 2020 primaries being delayed by doing this shit. They've been given a deadline of September 18 to get this done, and if the maps they submit aren't acceptable to the court, that's what's going to happen.

I'm trying to think if there's some advantage for them to having a delay happen, but I guess I'm not sneaky enough by nature to think of anything. I think it's just going to increase the number of people who are thoroughly exasperated with them.
I think they're going to plan on a court-redrawn map, and they'll frame it--as they've done--with the profoundly hypocritical "assault on democracy" narrative that they've been using since the court cases were first filed. I think they know that a fair map is likely to spell the end of their regime, so they'll just try to rally the troops with a cynically dishonest story of elite liberal judges, a la Trump.
  #359  
Old 09-12-2019, 02:02 PM
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There is no evidence that any Republican legislator "lied" to any dem legislator about voting on Wednesday.
There is, in fact, evidence. Furthermore, in many of your posts you have even cited this evidence. You are just failing to recognize evidence as evidence. That's on you.
  #360  
Old 09-12-2019, 03:55 PM
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I think they're going to plan on a court-redrawn map, and they'll frame it--as they've done--with the profoundly hypocritical "assault on democracy" narrative that they've been using since the court cases were first filed. I think they know that a fair map is likely to spell the end of their regime, so they'll just try to rally the troops with a cynically dishonest story of elite liberal judges, a la Trump.
I don't really understand what that will get them. I am assuming these judges and the one's on the State Supreme Court are elected, correct? If the courts impose a map drawn in a nonpartisan manner, then they are likely fucked for the near future, right? And SCOTUS has already washed their hands of gerrymandering cases of this sort so they won't get any relief there.

I'm just under the impression these jackasses don't truly understand that their shenanigans are no longer going to get them what they want.
  #361  
Old 09-12-2019, 04:07 PM
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These jackasses are many things, but "stupid" or "politically unsavvy" aren't among them. If anything, politically unsavvy should be used to describe NC Dems. The bulk of our gains lately have IMO been due to work by citizen activists like NCAE, the Moral Monday Movement, the ACLU, and others. Our Democratic party has some good members, but I'm not always impressed by them.

In case folks are wondering about whether the Republican party really made the claim about no vote, I wanna break it down:

1) The person in charge of that decision would be the House Rules Chairman David Lewis (R).
2) House Minority leader Darren Jackson claims that he asked Lewis and was verbally that there wouldn't be a vote, and he and the Dems relied on that assurance.
2a) Lewis claims he just said there wouldn't be votes on two other issues. Hmm.
3) WRAL reporter Laura Leslie has released a text exchange between her and Lewis, in which he says, in response to her question, "No votes at 8:30".
3a) Lewis admits to telling her this, but claims it's because he thought there wouldn't be any votes.

Lewis's story, then, is that when he was talking to Democrats, he told them there wouldn't be votes on two mini-items, but when he was talking to the news, he told them there wouldn't be any votes, because his understanding of what votes there would be were different when he was undocumented and when his words were documented.

Some folks might be naive enough to believe his conflicting claims.
  #362  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:16 PM
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He lied.

ETA: And as we've seen so often in recent years, I doubt there will be any punishment, no recriminations or any tangible consequences at all for this. In fact, I won't be surprised to find that he and the NC GOP get even more funding, more votes and more support because of this maneuver.

I would urge all Democratic officials to look on all GOP officials (and supporters) as untrustworthy in any way for the foreseeable future.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 09-12-2019 at 05:20 PM.
  #363  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:57 PM
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... 1) The person in charge of that decision would be the House Rules Chairman David Lewis (R). ...
Regarding this point, are you sure? Lewis wasn't even in the chamber when the controversial vote was held. It seem like it's up to the Speaker of the House, Tim Moore, that he is "the person in charge of that decision".
  #364  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:45 PM
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So it was all just a big misunderstanding and purely a coincidence that the Republicans decided to hold a very important vote that they knew the Democrats would block at a time when it just happened that most of the Democrats had thought that no votes would be held while it just happened that all of the Republicans decided to show up. And the speaker just didn't happen notice that most of the opposition was missing before he decided to call the vote. Just a wild crazy coincidence, nothing the least bit underhanded here.
  #365  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:51 PM
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Did the state senate vote?
  #366  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:01 PM
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Did the state senate vote?
Not today. I'm sure as soon as they can identify their own slick move, they'll be all over it.
  #367  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:39 PM
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It would have been nice if they voted today. The Dems have enough votes to defeat it if team R plays it straight.
  #368  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:45 PM
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It would have been nice if they voted today. The Dems have enough votes to defeat it if team R plays it straight.
"If team R plays it straight" BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh man, you got me good there.

Yeah, Dems have the votes to sustain a veto, and in normal times, Republicans would hold that pro forma vote, and then move on to phase 2, i.e., negotiating a compromise. Cooper's been trying to get them to that stage.

But they don't want to admit that they lack the power they held for nearly a decade. They're trying every dirty trick they can think of to subvert democracy (handy reminder: a minority of Tarheels voted for Republicans in 2018, and the map they were elected under was just declared unconstitutionally gerrymandered, calling into doubt the legitimacy of their governance).

I'd lay even odds on their figuring out another dirty trick that lets them override the veto. They ain't stupid, just awful.
  #369  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:46 PM
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What democrats need to understand is that this is what we're dealing with. These are not people who are interested in fair play. They do not care what norms they break. They will lie, cheat, defraud, and more for the sake of political power. And anyone thinking that their promises are worth a damn needs to wake the fuck up.
I think the main mistake the Dems make is that they think the public will see them taking the high road and the Republicans "fighting dirty". The truth is that most Americans are disinterested, and the ones who engage with politics are usually the most partisan. Combine this with the generally cynical attitude most Americans have about politics and trying to sell people on "our party respects norms" just doesn't work.

The Dems themselves should fight dirty when it makes sense. It's a lot easier to sell a swing voter on "we fought for the Medicaid expansion, and now your medical expenses are more manageable" than "well we didn't actually get you the Medicaid expansion, but we took the high road against the dirty tricksters who blocked it and we're hoping you can elect more of us to keep taking the high road."
  #370  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:49 PM
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It would have been nice if they voted today. The Dems have enough votes to defeat it if team R plays it straight.
Why would you even think that, let alone type it and then post it? When have the NC GOP, in recent memory, been trustworthy?

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 09-12-2019 at 11:50 PM.
  #371  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:53 AM
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Why would you even think that, let alone type it and then post it? When have the NC GOP, in recent memory, been trustworthy?
It would have been nice if the veto override was voted down yesterday and that would have happened if the Republicans played it straight.

I made no comments about their trustworthiness or the likelihood of that happening. What they're doing is a perversion of democracy even if it's technically within the rules.

It would be nice if they stopped acting that way. That's completely orthogonal to the fact that that almost certainly will not happen.
  #372  
Old 09-13-2019, 02:10 PM
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It would have been nice if the veto override was voted down yesterday and that would have happened if the Republicans played it straight.

I made no comments about their trustworthiness or the likelihood of that happening. What they're doing is a perversion of democracy even if it's technically within the rules.

It would be nice if they stopped acting that way. That's completely orthogonal to the fact that that almost certainly will not happen.
What did you mean by "if team R plays it straight" if you did not mean "if team R is trustworthy"?
  #373  
Old 09-13-2019, 03:39 PM
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But the Raleigh News & Observer reports that only 2 Dems were at a 9/11 ceremony.

Quote:
WHERE WERE DEMOCRATS?
Some headlines suggested that Democrats were at events commemorating the 9/11 attacks — the vote was taken at roughly the same time as the national moment of silence. But The News & Observer has confirmed only two Democrats attended 9/11 events.
One was Cooper, who spoke at the North Carolina National Guard’s Sept. 11 commemoration in Raleigh.

The other was Rep. Garland Pierce, a Scotland County Democrat, who says he attended a [different] event, in Raeford.
They also report

Quote:
DID REPUBLICANS BREAK ANY RULES?
No. The budget override was on the calendar for Wednesday’s morning session.
Maybe there were lies and dirty tricks. But the meme that dems couldn't vote b/c they were at a 9/11 ceremony is false, if the Raleigh News & Observer is to be believed. Even the Washington Post issued a clarification, but I can't seem to find the exact wording at the moment.
  #374  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:11 PM
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What did you mean by "if team R plays it straight" if you did not mean "if team R is trustworthy"?
I meant, "if team R plays it straight."

If team R plays it straight, good things will happen. Team R will almost certainly not play it straight, in part, because they are untrustworthy.

I don't think they are trustworthy, and I don't think it's likely that they will behave in a trustworthy manner.
  #375  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:20 PM
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Let me put it this way...

I said, "If A happens then B will happen." I didn't say anything one way or the other about the likelihood of A happening.
  #376  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:12 PM
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Perhaps our secular cynicism has blinded us. We see dark conspiracy in an interlocking web of unintended consequence and random coincidence. But might it not have a more benign source?

I speak, of course, of the divine hand of Providence, that most Supreme Court, which has for so long graced the GOP with approval and assistance! For so very long!
  #377  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:57 PM
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Friday's a two-fer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRAL
Former North Carolina congressman and state Republican Party chairman Robin Hayes has agreed to plead guilty to lying to the FBI during a sting that netted indictments against Hayes, a wealthy Durham businessman and two associates.

A signed plea agreement has been filed with the court, and a plea hearing is scheduled for Wednesday, according to a spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of North Carolina in Charlotte.

Hayes isn't pleading guilty to the underlying bribery charges in this case. Investor Greg Lindberg and the other co-defendants in this case initially pleaded not guilty to those charges. Hayes faced the additional charge of lying as FBI agents investigated whether Lindberg and his team tried to bribe state Insurance Commissioner Mike Causey.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRAL
A nonprofit affiliated with former U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder's nationwide push to end gerrymandering filed a lawsuit in Wake County on Friday challenging North Carolina's congressional district map.

The National Redistricting Foundation is backing a lawsuit filed by individuals in each of the state's 13 congressional districts, alleging that the General Assembly illegally drew the district lines in 2016 to favor Republican candidates.
...
GOP lawmakers included partisan advantage among the criteria used to draw the 2016 congressional district map. Rep. David Lewis, R-Harnett, who oversaw the redistricting effort, was quoted at the time that he wanted a 10-3 map in favor of Republicans only because he couldn't figure out a way to fairly draw an 11-2 map.
Nice quote, David--thanks for saying that in your out loud voice!

By the way, David Lewis is the dude who earlier this month said there wouldn't be any budget-override votes on the morning of 9/11. I don't know he has a lot of friends left in Raleigh.

This is good news in the same way that finding out your antibiotics are starting to clear up your strep infection is good news. You wish you didn't have the bad news in the first place, but hey, at least things are starting to look up.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 09-27-2019 at 01:57 PM.
  #378  
Old 10-28-2019, 08:29 PM
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And …

Court throws out North Carolina's congressional district maps

Quote:
North Carolina cannot use the existing maps for its congressional districts in next year's elections, a state court ruled late Monday, declaring them to be invalid partisan gerrymanders.
Quote:
The panel stopped short of ordering the legislature to draw new maps but said disruptions could be avoided "should the General Assembly, on its own initiative, act immediately and will all due haste to enact new congressional districts."
It's almost like they saying: 'So, what now, bitches?'

Stay tuned.
  #379  
Old 10-29-2019, 02:57 PM
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And …

Court throws out North Carolina's congressional district maps





It's almost like they saying: 'So, what now, bitches?'

Stay tuned.
It cracks me up that so many GOP operatives were delighted when the SCOTUS said they couldn't get involved in partisan gerrymanders and here we are with the court in NC saying, "No assholes, you can't do this." Unless I'm missing something I don't see where the GOP could appeal and have a chance of getting this tossed out.

Best news I heard in weeks. Let's hope it spreads to other states.
  #380  
Old 10-29-2019, 03:05 PM
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Thanks for bumping this thread!

Yeah, this is a good basic ruling, but I was a little confused about the lack of a clear order.
  #381  
Old 10-29-2019, 08:28 PM
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Thanks for bumping this thread!

Yeah, this is a good basic ruling, but I was a little confused about the lack of a clear order.
It almost seems like a trap to me … 'you know what you should do, but what will you do?'

That's why I said to stay tuned … what fuckery will they invent next that needs to be slapped down?
  #382  
Old 10-29-2019, 08:43 PM
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It almost seems like a trap to me … 'you know what you should do, but what will you do?'

That's why I said to stay tuned … what fuckery will they invent next that needs to be slapped down?
They'll present another "bad map", at which point the court will probably commission some outside expert to draw a new one. Then the NC Republicans will challenge the new map in court, hoping for a stay, long enough to impact the next election.
Delay, delay. If they can delay the implementation of a non-gerrymandered map, then they can continue their domination through the next election.
Eventually, a fairer map will be implemented, but they'll have gotten through yet another election cycle. Long term doesn't seem to matter to them.
  #383  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:48 PM
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I'm not sure how much more wiggle room they have to challenge anything in court. The interesting part will be to see if they return a decent map in time for the next congressional election or not. If not, elections will be delayed, and I think that's going to piss a lot of folks off. And to add to the drama, once the 2020 census is complete, they'll have to redraw the districts again. And this state is only getting bigger and more urban.
  #384  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:02 PM
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Actually, I have to take some of that back - just read an article here on Slate saying:
Quote:
Originally Posted by linked Slate article
North Carolina’s congressional gerrymander is dead. A state court ruled on Monday that the map, which is skewed in Republicans’ favor, likely violates the North Carolina Constitution and may not be used in the 2020 election. The only question now is how long Republicans hem, haw, and dawdle before conceding defeat and redrawing the illegal districts. Importantly, Republicans will not be permitted to stall past the election; the court made clear that it will delay the 2020 primaries to guarantee a lawful election.
{emphasis mine}

Now, I'm not certain how authoritative this particular author is, but if he's correct the Republicans in NC have very little choice in offering a fair map. I think they won't, anyway, but it'll quickly be overruled, and/or the primaries will be delayed, and they'll be the ones with egg on their face.
  #385  
Old 10-30-2019, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by galen ubal View Post
Actually, I have to take some of that back - just read an article here on Slate saying:
{emphasis mine}

Now, I'm not certain how authoritative this particular author is, but if he's correct the Republicans in NC have very little choice in offering a fair map. I think they won't, anyway, but it'll quickly be overruled, and/or the primaries will be delayed, and they'll be the ones with egg on their face.
For what my opinion is worth, Mark Joseph Stern is a solid legal reporter but a mediocre to poor legal analyst. That is, when he is reporting what happened, he is overwhelmingly timely and correct. When he is analyzing what will happen as a result, he is often or maybe even usually, off. I'm not sure here on what basis he predicts that the court will prevent the Republicans from delaying.

Dahlia Lithwick, on the other hand, is a great legal analyst and very good reporter for Slate. Unfortunately, she doesn't do much reporting these days.

Last edited by Tired and Cranky; 10-30-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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